So what are the Denizens of Ravenloft?

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Galeros's picture
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So what are the Denizens of Ravenloft?

I know in planar culture that denizens of the prime material plane are often called "Clueless" as in Planar's eyes they do not have a full picture of reality. But what about those who inhabit Ravenloft, which is even more cut off from planar culture than the vast majority of prime worlds.

This topic is not intended to be taken too seriously.Sticking out tongue

EDIT: To expand on this topic some more, how many planars even KNOW about Ravenloft? I doubt its existence is common knowledge, maybe only known to really dedicated planar scholars.

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Re: So what are the Denizens of Ravenloft?

Galeros wrote:
EDIT: To expand on this topic some more, how many planars even KNOW about Ravenloft? I doubt its existence is common knowledge, maybe only known to really dedicated planar scholars.

This seems like the interesting question, right?

I don't know Ravenloft especially well, but I'm fairly certain that the list of folks who've been there and returned is extremely short, right? And they surely aren't talking much about it. So what is it to "know" a place like that? In a fiction where you can simply trek down to heaven or hell or throw rocks at Thor's house, a place like Ravenloft feels like a rare example of genuine mythology, which is something I suspect most planars have an odd relationship with.

I could easily imagine that a lot of planars have default cultural knowledge of Ravenloft (probably by many names) and wave it around like a bogeyman to frighten errant children and whatnot, but of course it's not actually real. That's ridiculous. Or is it? (ominous orchestra!)

And a few planars know the truth of it, or at least have very strong suspicions. Which sounds a little like this:

Ravenloft is to the Great Wheel as the Great Wheel is to some dumb prime world.

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Re: So what are the Denizens of Ravenloft?

The Vistani would grab interest of the Etherfarer Society, I think anyone looking for Raveloft info would better start there.

Otherwise, here's from the campaign setting

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Another of the demiplanes is one of mystery, known only as the “Demiplane of Dread,” which is for­ever lost in the deepest mists. Those unlucky plane-hoppers who find it mostly don’t come back, and the few who do tell tales of horror that do well to caution others. Those sods talk of lands of darkness and despair, where evil plays with mortals like a little boy plays with toys.

And from the Planewalker's Handbook

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Sages think the latter sort may one day become real planes, but no one knows for sure. One such major demiplane, the so-called Demiplane of Dread, is the subject of much rumor and speculation. Plenty have heard of it, but no one’s found it - at least, no one’s found it and come back.

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Re: So what are the Denizens of Ravenloft?

Ravenloft is effectively a prison-demiplane. Because of that, there's very little known about it. While Ravenloft's status as a unique campaign setting has faded away after 2e, some might know a bit more about it because it was once the prison of Vecna, depending on how much you want to use module.

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Re: So what are the Denizens of Ravenloft?

This is a little bit of a tangent but does anyone else find the placement of Ravenloft in the Ethereal (IIRC) to be a bit off? To me, Ravenloft was much more about ideas of evil which seem more at home to me on the Outer Planes than on the material physicality of the Inner Planes.
Aside from the "mists" of Ravenloft being like the cloudy Ethereal, I never really saw the logic for its placement there (well, I guess having the Negative Plane nearby, doesn't hurt).
Since I define Carceri as a plane of evil and of confinement/imprisonment; I always liked the idea of placing RL there, but that's just me.

In answer to the original question, the rare resident/visitor that had escaped from Ravenloft to the planes would be uber-clueless. I don't know if there would be enough of these escapees to warrent a separate name but if they got one, I imagine it would be something like "the Lost" (if that hasn't been used elsewhere) to reflect their lack of knowledge and their dark moods due to the emotional scarring they had endured (unless they would contrarily be overly upbeat after having escaped RL)

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Re: So what are the Denizens of Ravenloft?

Palomides wrote:
This is a little bit of a tangent but does anyone else find the placement of Ravenloft in the Ethereal (IIRC) to be a bit off? To me, Ravenloft was much more about ideas of evil which seem more at home to me on the Outer Planes than on the material physicality of the Inner Planes. Aside from the "mists" of Ravenloft being like the cloudy Ethereal, I never really saw the logic for its placement there (well, I guess having the Negative Plane nearby, doesn't hurt). Since I define Carceri as a plane of evil and of confinement/imprisonment; I always liked the idea of placing RL there, but that's just me.
4e has those domains of Shadowfell that were vaguely based off of the domains of Darklords. With that approach while I feel it might be better in the Plane of Shadow which became Shadowfell, I don't like the idea it implies the Dark Powers are the Powers of Shadowfell and that it makes those domains too well known.
Quote:
In answer to the original question, the rare resident/visitor that had escaped from Ravenloft to the planes would be uber-clueless. I don't know if there would be enough of these escapees to warrent a separate name but if they got one, I imagine it would be something like "the Lost" (if that hasn't been used elsewhere) to reflect their lack of knowledge and their dark moods due to the emotional scarring they had endured (unless they would contrarily be overly upbeat after having escaped RL)
Yes they would be really clueless, there's hardly a reason or a cause for anyone from Ravenloft to learn actual planar cosmology.

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Re: So what are the Denizens of Ravenloft?

Well, Ravenloft is basically a prison for those who are particularly dangerous people, i.e. Vecna, and Lord Soth. However, the plane itself seems to be home of the dark powers (an ancient brethren like the Lady). The Dark Powers kind of do whatever they want and usually just bring people to the plane that maybe they feel like? I'm not to keen on that detail.

The Grand conjunction though can disperse many who were originally stuck in Ravenloft back to their respective homes, since Ravenloft is mostly just a mish mash of other prime material world (which is probably one reason it sits on the border ethereal). I personally have had a few Primers and Planars go to Ravenloft and back (although the one planar I've had in Ravenloft has kind of been going on a grand tour of the Multiverse, he's currently in the Far Realm *shudder*) I think.

I'm sure even Planars have vague knowledge of Ravenloft but probably in association with "never ever go there." Besides most of the people that live in Ravenloft probably don't know there's anything wrong with it or that there's anything outside of there homes. Also, I don't think there is anyway to voluntarily go to Ravenloft unless you have been brought there by the dark powers.

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Re: So what are the Denizens of Ravenloft?

Well, Ravenloft is basically a prison for those who are particularly dangerous people, i.e. Vecna, and Lord Soth. However, the plane itself seems to be home of the dark powers (an ancient brethren like the Lady). The Dark Powers kind of do whatever they want and usually just bring people to the plane that maybe they feel like? I'm not to keen on that detail.

The Grand conjunction though can disperse many who were originally stuck in Ravenloft back to their respective homes, since Ravenloft is mostly just a mish mash of other prime material world (which is probably one reason it sits on the border ethereal). I personally have had a few Primers and Planars go to Ravenloft and back (although the one planar I've had in Ravenloft has kind of been going on a grand tour of the Multiverse, he's currently in the Far Realm *shudder*) I think.

I'm sure even Planars have vague knowledge of Ravenloft but probably in association with "never ever go there." Besides most of the people that live in Ravenloft probably don't know there's anything wrong with it or that there's anything outside of there homes. Also, I don't think there is anyway to voluntarily go to Ravenloft unless you have been brought there by the dark powers.

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Re: So what are the Denizens of Ravenloft?

darsius wrote:
Well, Ravenloft is basically a prison for those who are particularly dangerous people, i.e. Vecna, and Lord Soth. However, the plane itself seems to be home of the dark powers (an ancient brethren like the Lady). The Dark Powers kind of do whatever they want and usually just bring people to the plane that maybe they feel like? I'm not to keen on that detail.
No one is. Eye-wink

It's unknown how the Dark Powers chose their prisoners. But not much is known about the Dark Powers anyway: Good or Evil? One or Many? ...

To say it's an ancient brethren is one theory, nothing more. Smiling

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I'm sure even Planars have vague knowledge of Ravenloft but probably in association with "never ever go there."
Makes for a nice story: "Let me tell you about a Demiplane, you can never leave once you enter it ..."

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Besides most of the people that live in Ravenloft probably don't know there's anything wrong with it or that there's anything outside of there homes.
Correct. (But most primes don't know about the Planes either.)

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Also, I don't think there is anyway to voluntarily go to Ravenloft unless you have been brought there by the dark powers.
Getting in is quite easy, plane shift or amulet of the planes will work to get there. (AD&D Domains of Dread)

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Re: So what are the Denizens of Ravenloft?

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Getting in is quite easy, plane shift or amulet of the planes will work to get there. (AD&D Domains of Dread)

Oh that's right you can even summon extra-planar creatures into Ravenloft. They won't be too happy with you once they discover they can't leave though.

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Re: So what are the Denizens of Ravenloft?

Mask wrote:
Makes for a nice story: "Let me tell you about a Demiplane, you can never leave once you enter it ..."

I once read a book about Timbuktu and why it has such name recognition.
As far as 19th(?) century Europe was concerned, there was a lot of debate if the place actually existed. The only account of it was a mention by a famous Arab trader that described it as a city filled with riches and exotic wares. But for centuries that was the only mention of the place.
A lot of European scholars lumped it with imaginary locales like Atlantis or Shangri-La.
[And there was a bit of a shock and let-down when it was "discovered" and it was found to have significantly fallen from the granduer it once had]

I imagine that Ravenloft would have a similar position. Since so very few people escape from it to tell others of its existance, I imagine that if the name is well known on the planes, it is largely considered a myth (although it's hard to imagine what kind of myths would take root among planewalkers considering the realities they see). I imagine that only a few scholars or seriously ambitious explorers would take the stories of former Ravenloft residents seriously

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Re: So what are the Denizens of Ravenloft?

Remember that if you go to Carceri, it's not that hard to get back out -- it's only if you're sent there that you're trapped. And even if you're trapped, there's at least a proverb on how to get out that gives you the agency in the matter: become stronger than your jailer.

Planars practically define themselves (as in contrast to primes) by being able to see and travel the multiverse. The existence of a plane where you can be deliberately pulled or even accidentally find yourself, trapped without any sure way of leaving, seems pretty close to exactly the kind of story that would creep them right out.

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Re: So what are the Denizens of Ravenloft?

I'm going to rock the boat a little here and say that Ravenloft is probably no less well-known than, say, Athas. People talk about it, some people claim to be from there, but it sounds like any other backwater Prime, so who cares? It might have one or two unusual qualities that are of interest to planewalkers, but that's a niche market at best.

You can leave Athas, but you can never find it again. You can go to Ravenloft, but you can never leave...

*Unless* the Dark Powers let you go, that is. And the thing is, they do let people go, all the time. Adventurers are swept up by the Mists for their Weekend in Hell, and then unceremoniously dumped back wherever they came from. The Dark Powers seem to only hold onto things they think they can use, in their ongoing morality plays, the domains. Lord Soth seems to have 'escaped' by refusing to play the part of proper villain, and the Dark Powers got bored of him, and put him back in his castle on Krynn. (Sidenote: What's interesting about Soth is that he didn't really seem to want to escape-- he didn't really seem to want anything. There was seemingly no torment the Dark Powers could put him through that was worse than the torment he was already putting himself through. So they set him free. And later, he died to restore his honour, and to seek redemption in the afterlife. So maybe the Dark Powers really do know a thing or two about a person's character. Interesting if true.)

On the other hand (of Vecna), if you take the events of Die Vecna Die! (with a grain of salt) as canon, the lich-cum-god either outsmarted the Dark Powers or became too much of a nuisance for them to hold onto-- which I suppose amounts to much the same thing, depending on how you look at it. The Dark Powers, like the Lady, don't seem to want the gods interfering with their project. They're happy to use outsiders (Inajira the arcanoloth, Isolde the ghaele eladrin, the Gentleman Caller) as bit players, but the darklords are all mortals, or former mortals. I imagine it's that ability to choose right from wrong, to go against their base nature, that mortals still possess and which fiends, celestials, and powers tend to lack-- because they've already chosen, so to speak.

Even if you strike DVD! entirely from the record-- and well you might-- it does seem like the Dark Powers want to advertise. Maybe they want an audience for their cautionary tales, or else they want to taunt their potential victims, or it could be they just want the whispers and ghost stories to tell the multiverse how nasty and clever they are, but they want witnesses. They want people to know about their existence, for some reason. So on the Outer Planes, at least, plenty of people probably do. Which is to say it's probably not common knowledge, but any old hand at planar travel has probably at least heard the rumours, and it's very possible that there are fiends and celestials who have been there firsthand, only to be discarded by the Dark Powers once they were done with them.

So I would say the mere existence of Ravenloft is probably not a big secret, but its significance-- it's not just some creepy Prime-- is probably almost entirely unknown. And as for getting there (on purpose? why would you want to?) you'd probably need a deal with the devil, a miracle, or a Vistana.

...On which note:

In Ravenloft, outsiders with the Good or Evil descriptor, by their presence alone, create a kind of concentrated miniature domain ('reality wrinkles') that travels with them, disrupting the very reality of Ravenloft. The more powerful the outsider, the more Good or Evil they presumably are, and in the case of solars, high-ranking archons, and some powerful fiends, this can be enough to let them bypass the darklords' closed borders, essentially giving them free run of the demiplane. Can't have that, so not many outsiders are allowed in Ravenloft.

The Dark Powers can't or won't strip outsiders of this effect, though it can be dimmed and sometimes overpowered, especially in the presence of a darklord. At the same time, the Dark Powers do nothing to prevent spellcasters from summoning evil creatures into Ravenloft, but spells which summon good creatures tend to fail, or are distorted in some way.

So the likeliest source for firsthand information on Ravenloft is probably going to be the fiends, particularly mid-ranking fiends who've been there, especially tempters, corruptors, and skilled shapeshifters. The Dark Powers seem to find those the most useful. They're not strong enough to upend the domains or break out of the demiplane, either, which is a bonus. Although depending on how old the Demiplane of Dread actually is in your campaign, the fiend in question might have been promoted several times over by now.

Whether or not even a fiend who'd 'escaped' from Ravenloft would know how to get back is another question. Mask mentioned that plane shift would work, and maybe it should, though I'd be careful about letting the players do that kind of thing with Ravenloft. They should certainly live to regret it, if they do.

Personally, as a DM, I'm inclined to agree with Darsius. I'd say that whatever the sages might suggest, there is no reliable means of reaching Ravenloft outside of the demiplane itself-- unless the Dark Powers want you there already. We don't go to Ravenloft anymore, is what I'm saying. You can't get there on purpose if the Mists bar your passage or divert your plane shift, and you don't get there by accident. If the object of your quest is in Vecna's former domain, then that's not a coincidence, it's by design of the Dark Powers.

And if they want you, then they're going to get you, like it or not. That's what the Mists are for. And the Vistani.

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Re: So what are the Denizens of Ravenloft?

So how old is the Demiplane of Dread, anyway?

Barovia was apparently the first domain in the Core, but there are clusters of civilization floating out in the Mists that have nothing to do with the Core. New domains spring up fully formed out of the Mists, with their own history and peoples. Walking the same path through the Mists does not always lead to the same place, and in the space of a few wrong steps the Mists can in fact take you to places that are supposedly halfway across the world. Spend enough time in Darkon and your memories will shift and alter until you believe you were born and raised there, and never left. The Zarovan, a Vistani tribe, navigate the Mists with ease, predict events which have yet to occur, and even seem to travel back and forth in time. During the Grand Conjunction, the surface of the earth churned, geography was juggled about, entire nations went missing, inland countries became islands, and all the maps had to be redrawn.

Time, space, and memory are unreliable in horror. I like to imagine that these things are always fluid in Ravenloft, and that the aforementioned list is only the most blatant, outward manifestations of that fact. The Dark Powers are constantly, subtly editing the fabric of the demiplane and the minds of its inhabitants. Even its temporary guests are tailored to suit the drama the Dark Powers are forever unfolding, taking actors and set pieces from the Prime as they find them, and manufacturing the intervening terrain from wholecloth.

Barovia seems to have been drawn entirely into Ravenloft, removed from the Prime, whereas Darkon seems to have simply appeared as Azalin walked into it, as if he'd always been there.

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Re: So what are the Denizens of Ravenloft?

Personally,I like to think that Ravenloft is older than Barovia. I just like to think that none of the earlier Dark Lords were evil enough to really anchor their domain so strongly as to allow a stable "Core" to form around it

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Barovia was apparently the first domain in the Core, but there are clusters of civilization floating out in the Mists that have nothing to do with the Core. New domains spring up fully formed out of the Mists, with their own history and peoples.

Aren't all domains of Ravenloft torn from the prime material plane? That's what I was always lead to believe.

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Personally,I like to think that Ravenloft is older than Barovia. I just like to think that none of the earlier Dark Lords were evil enough to really anchor their domain so strongly as to allow a stable "Core" to form around it

Maybe there was a Grand Conjunction before Barovia appeared, who knows. Maybe there have been an infinite number of Grand Conjunctions.

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darsius wrote:
Aren't all domains of Ravenloft torn from the prime material plane? That's what I was always lead to believe.

It's not quite that clear-cut, because Ravenloft natives usually don't remember not being part of Ravenloft. Sooner or later, and often sooner, domains succumb to Darkon syndrome and start believing that the neighbouring domains have always been there, and it's only the fickle nature of the Mists that might make it seem otherwise. Other planes, dragons, angels-- these are myths in Ravenloft. That can't really be the case if they remember where they came from, so at the very least what's happening is some pretty heavy selective memory-editing.

The Dark Powers definitely can move around vast swaths of land in Ravenloft, but when they steal a domain from the Prime, it's usually a big blank spot, not a crater. And people forget. Maybe we don't really need to explain how they get a hold of the matter they're using, but as long as we're thinking in planes and rules of three, the Inner Planes are right there, conveniently placed.

The domain of Nova Vaasa is a good example, I think-- it would appear to be stitched together out of people from Vaasa, a frontier country in the north of Faerun, spliced with a substantially more urban, pre-industrial kingdom, origin unknown. But the original Vaasa and its people are still intact. And yes, the Dark Powers might have taken this other country and its people and given them these memories. But it does seem like it's within their power to have built the whole thing from scratch.

Palomides wrote:
Personally,I like to think that Ravenloft is older than Barovia. I just like to think that none of the earlier Dark Lords were evil enough to really anchor their domain so strongly as to allow a stable "Core" to form around it

I like to imagine that there were previous Cores, and that alternate Cores might still exist, just as large, just as stable.

darsius wrote:
Maybe there was a Grand Conjunction before Barovia appeared, who knows. Maybe there have been an infinite number of Grand Conjunctions.

...which is to say, not very stable at all. There might have been any number of Grand Conjunctions, and there might be any number of smaller, less noticeable conjunctions. Maybe the Mists hide the seams that join together this false, cobbled-together world of Ravenloft, or are the seams themselves, the interstices of a person's fraying perception. Maybe Ravenloft is the Matrix, or The Truman Show. Except most people would probably rather it weren't.

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Re: So what are the Denizens of Ravenloft?

Some of the domains, such as Barovia, are copies of nations that once existed on the Material Plane, but note that Barovia still exists on the Material Plane as well, with descendants of the Zaroviches still ruling.

Other domains in the Demiplane of Dread aren't copies of Material Plane nations. For example, Vecna and Kas's realms don't look geographically anything like the ancient realm of Vecna on Oerth (which was based around the swampy Rushmoors in the Sheldomar Valley); instead, Vecna's desert realm of Cavitius seems roughly based on Vecna's domain of Cavitius on the Quasielemental Plane of Ash, and Kas's realm seems to have been made up out of whole cloth (but perhaps roughly inspired by Kas's memories of the temperate land of his birth). Likewise, Azalin's realm of Darkon isn't a copy of the Knurl/Bone March region where Azalin ruled as a mortal - there are some vague geographic similarities, so if you squint you can imagine that parts of Darkon are exaggerated, horrific parallels of features on Oerth, but it's a very different land. And only Azalin vanished from Oerth; all of his subjects stayed behind when Azalin went to the Demiplane of Dread. It seems clear that the original population of Darkon was created out of mist and nothingness by the Dark Powers, though since then travelers from other domains and other worlds have come to believe they were always natives of Darkon. Similarly, Falkovnia doesn't look anything like Vlad Drakov's native land of Thenol in Taladas.

I understand that some parts of Ravenloft actually did move an entire population into the Demiplane - there's no one left in Kalidnay on Athas, for example, which is just ruins now on its world of origin. But that's generally not the case. Usually only the darklord is pulled into the demiplane, and the domain is created around him from his fears, longings, and anxieties.

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Re: So what are the Denizens of Ravenloft?

So basically the Dark Powers can do whatever they want to their realms?

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Re: So what are the Denizens of Ravenloft?

Someone mentioned the Dark Powers could be one of the Ancient Brethren, how many (theoretically, or course) Ancient Brethren are there?

Also, for Athas, in the Dragon Kings book it states that Athas is on an Alternate Material plane, yet in the Spelljammer Spacefarer's Handbook it states it is in a Closed Crystal Sphere.

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Re: So what are the Denizens of Ravenloft?

Someone mentioned the Dark Powers could be one of the Ancient Brethren, how many (theoretically, or course) Ancient Brethren are there?

Also, for Athas, in the Dragon Kings book it states that Athas is on an Alternate Material plane, yet in the Spelljammer Spacefarer's Handbook it states it is in a Closed Crystal Sphere.

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Re: So what are the Denizens of Ravenloft?

"Alternate material planes" are fairly rare in official Planescape material and usually involve crossovers between D&D and other, often higher-tech settings. Athas is generally understood to be in its own crystal sphere, just a relatively inaccessible one.

The only suggestion I know of concerning alternate material planes in the books normally associated with the Planescape line is in the Guide to the Ethereal, where the PCs can rescue a comatose spaceship crash victim through her rupturing dreamscape.

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Jem wrote:
"Alternate material planes" are fairly rare in official Planescape material and usually involve crossovers between D&D and other, often higher-tech settings. Athas is generally understood to be in its own crystal sphere, just a relatively inaccessible one.

True, just interesting that before Planescape (Dragon Kings) it was considered to be separate from the Prime, yet shared the same Astral, Outer, and Inner Planes.

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Jem wrote:
The only suggestion I know of concerning alternate material planes in the books normally associated with the Planescape line is in the Guide to the Ethereal, where the PCs can rescue a comatose spaceship crash victim through her rupturing dreamscape.

Interesting, Dreamscape, is that the same as The Realm of Dreams?

And where was this spaceship from?

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darsius wrote:
So basically the Dark Powers can do whatever they want to their realms?

Mostly. (Greater) Powers can enter and leave Ravenloft and even take others with them. (Domains of Dread - Desciption of the "Horn of Valhalla").

It is not known, how much Domains there are. Sometimes domains do get swallowed up by the mists (especially if the Darklord is freed/killed and no one within the domain is a suitable successor), while new domains appear from time to time. There might be another core somewhere within the mists.

unsung wrote:
Whether or not even a fiend who'd 'escaped' from Ravenloft would know how to get back is another question. Mask mentioned that plane shift would work, and maybe it should, though I'd be careful about letting the players do that kind of thing with Ravenloft. They should certainly live to regret it, if they do.

Getting there has never been the problem. But a fiend who has been there should be aware that he cannot leave easily. He will do anything to avoid getting there again. (And most chars should feel the same about it.) Being able to get to Ravenloft won't make anyone WANT to get there.

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The Dark Powers can't or won't strip outsiders of this effect, though it can be dimmed and sometimes overpowered, especially in the presence of a darklord.
Technically the fiends become kind of darklords themselves, the reality wrinkle being their own moveable pocket domain. They diminish the powers of the darklord within these place. (VR Guide to Fiends).

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but the darklords are all mortals, or former mortals
Most of them, not all. Domains of Dread contains Adam (Flesh Golem), Maligno (Animated Puppet) and the House of Lament. Another Darklord, Ebonbane, is a former outsider in the form of a magical sword.

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Adventurers are swept up by the Mists for their Weekend in Hell, and then unceremoniously dumped back wherever they came from.
This usage of the mists is just a help for DMs that don't want to play whole RL-campaigns and should be considered even less canon than DVD. Eye-wink

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Re: So what are the Denizens of Ravenloft?

Everyone has a dreamscape, which is like a tiny demiplane in the Border Ethereal, a world the mortal inhabits while dreaming. They are accessible with the right powers or spells from the Ethereal plane.

Ana was a space traveler from an alternate, high-tech world. Her ship crashed on a remote, barren planet. She's in a sleep-like stasis that allows her to dream. Her dreamscape had intruded into the usual D&D Ethereal for some reason never entirely explained. The PCs could briefly visit her world and wake her, presumably either staying there to explore a high-tech spacefaring civilization or bring Ana back to the Planescape multiverse.

The world where she had crashed is said to be "a long way" from the usual byways of the Ethereal. You have to track back to it from some detritus that it's throwing off. It's probably also "a long way" from the portions of the Ethereal that that world's psions, if it has any, are likely to travel normally, hence why she hadn't been found and rescued by their world's adventurers first. This suggests that although the trip is long and might require specialized knowledge, the Ethereal can perhaps be used to move between alternate Multiverses, a theory somewhat supported by other supplements I am told, though I don't have them.

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Re: So what are the Denizens of Ravenloft?

Jem wrote:
Everyone has a dreamscape, which is like a tiny demiplane in the Border Ethereal, a world the mortal inhabits while dreaming. They are accessible with the right powers or spells from the Ethereal plane.

Ana was a space traveler from an alternate, high-tech world. Her ship crashed on a remote, barren planet. She's in a sleep-like stasis that allows her to dream. Her dreamscape had intruded into the usual D&D Ethereal for some reason never entirely explained. The PCs could briefly visit her world and wake her, presumably either staying there to explore a high-tech spacefaring civilization or bring Ana back to the Planescape multiverse.

The world where she had crashed is said to be "a long way" from the usual byways of the Ethereal. You have to track back to it from some detritus that it's throwing off. It's probably also "a long way" from the portions of the Ethereal that that world's psions, if it has any, are likely to travel normally, hence why she hadn't been found and rescued by their world's adventurers first. This suggests that although the trip is long and might require specialized knowledge, the Ethereal can perhaps be used to move between alternate Multiverses, a theory somewhat supported by other supplements I am told, though I don't have them.

Very cool, thanks for the info, just one more thing, can you turn Ethereal/access the Ethereal Plane from the Astral and Outer Planes?

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Re: So what are the Denizens of Ravenloft?

Jem wrote:
Everyone has a dreamscape, which is like a tiny demiplane in the Border Ethereal, a world the mortal inhabits while dreaming. They are accessible with the right powers or spells from the Ethereal plane.

Dreams are in the border ethereal? I find that very odd as the Ethereal plane connects the Prime Material and inner planes together. It doesn't seem as though that would be a plane of the mind. I would almost imagine dreamscapes to be in the deep Astral. As the Astral is the plane of thought which links the Prime Material with the Outer Planes (planes spawned almost entirely from belief).

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Re: So what are the Denizens of Ravenloft?

Steely Dan wrote:
Very cool, thanks for the info, just one more thing, can you turn Ethereal/access the Ethereal Plane from the Astral and Outer Planes?

The usual route is to go to the Prime and from there to the Ethereal. The Ethereal is "on the other side of the Prime" from the Astral and the Outer Planes.

Of course, Sigil has portals to the Ethereal, although they're rarer than others. Sigil has portals everywhere.

As for any other exceptions... who knows? But they are, generally speaking, exceptions. Finding a portal to the Ethereal direct from the Astral should be one weird event for your players.

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Re: So what are the Denizens of Ravenloft?

darsius wrote:
Dreams are in the border ethereal? I find that very odd as the Ethereal plane connects the Prime Material and inner planes together. It doesn't seem as though that would be a plane of the mind. I would almost imagine dreamscapes to be in the deep Astral. As the Astral is the plane of thought which links the Prime Material with the Outer Planes (planes spawned almost entirely from belief).

The Astral isn't really supposed to contain anything, or so the story goes. It's a transit plane for souls and beliefs, but its conduits and color pools are only connections. (You might even think that there is no space in the Astral, and that color pools are only perceived when one is in the correct state of mind to perceive them.) Its psychic winds are just lost thoughts, discards of other planes. The Border Ethereal is shaped by psychic impressions like dreams and ghosts because it wraps closely around the Prime, whereas the Astral stands "off" a ways.

Feel free to manipulate this as you please -- however, it is canonical that dreamscapes are found on the Ethereal, near the colorful curtains that separate each world from the deeper Ethereal.

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Re: So what are the Denizens of Ravenloft?

Jem wrote:
Steely Dan wrote:
Very cool, thanks for the info, just one more thing, can you turn Ethereal/access the Ethereal Plane from the Astral and Outer Planes?

The usual route is to go to the Prime and from there to the Ethereal. The Ethereal is "on the other side of the Prime" from the Astral and the Outer Planes.

Of course, Sigil has portals to the Ethereal, although they're rarer than others. Sigil has portals everywhere.

As for any other exceptions... who knows? But they are, generally speaking, exceptions. Finding a portal to the Ethereal direct from the Astral should be one weird event for your players.

Right on, what about simply turning ethereal (spell, magic item, monster power, etc), is it possible in the Astral, Sigil, and Outer Planes?

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Re: So what are the Denizens of Ravenloft?

In Second Edition, there was a list of spells like etherealness or maze which could not be cast on the Astral or the Outer Planes, and the dimmer rumor of unusual spell keys that would allow such spells to be cast anyway.

Sigil is an exception. It seems to have some kind of "local Ethereal," despite the fact that it really shouldn't.

If you want to ignore this rule on the Outer Planes and allow them to have a similar sort of "fake border Ethereal" where people can blink in and out, or where ghosts can wander, then, of course, feel free. There's something similar in the fact that while you can't summon an elemental on the Outer Planes, you can summon a pseudoelemental from the plane's native stuff -- and this will be a kind of fake elemental, made out of the material of the plane but acting like an elemental with an alignment while it is embodied.

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Re: So what are the Denizens of Ravenloft?

Jem wrote:
In Second Edition, there was a list of spells like etherealness or maze which could not be cast on the Astral or the Outer Planes, and the dimmer rumor of unusual spell keys that would allow such spells to be cast anyway.

Ah, so your oil of etherealness would not work on The Outlands?

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Re: So what are the Denizens of Ravenloft?

Right, because there's no Ethereal to fade in to there.

Unless you want there to be. Ripvanwormer is a big fan of throwing out rules that restrict character options as reducing the fun, and while I think that power limits give shape to stories, I respect that opinion enough to bring it up myself. :^)

(For instance, loumara come from the Abyss, and are generally incorporeal, so where are they while they're incorporeal? Do they just have a different way of becoming intangible there, or does the Abyss have a local version of the border Ethereal, maybe one with different rules that a would-be ethereal hunter could be unpleasantly surprised by?)

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Re: So what are the Denizens of Ravenloft?

Jem wrote:
Right, because there's no Ethereal to fade in to there.

Unless you want there to be. Ripvanwormer is a big fan of throwing out rules that restrict character options as reducing the fun, and while I think that power limits give shape to stories, I respect that opinion enough to bring it up myself. :^)

(For instance, loumara come from the Abyss, and are generally incorporeal, so where are they while they're incorporeal? Do they just have a different way of becoming intangible there, or does the Abyss have a local version of the border Ethereal, maybe one with different rules that a would-be ethereal hunter could be unpleasantly surprised by?)

Ah, I thought so, thanks again for clearing things up, and hipping me to the dreamscape demi-plane/border ethereal action, very cool.

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Re: So what are the Denizens of Ravenloft?

Jem wrote:
Unless you want there to be. Ripvanwormer is a big fan of throwing out rules that restrict character options as reducing the fun

Yeah, but I don't go so far as to make the Ethereal Plane border the Outer Planes.

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(For instance, loumara come from the Abyss, and are generally incorporeal, so where are they while they're incorporeal? Do they just have a different way of becoming intangible there, or does the Abyss have a local version of the border Ethereal, maybe one with different rules that a would-be ethereal hunter could be unpleasantly surprised by?)

Well, like, succubi have the ability to ethereal jaunt, a power that's useless in their native realm unless there's an Abyssal layer that can function as a border ethereal from the perspective of neighboring Abyssal layers. I think I may have actually fleshed out a layer like that at one point. In Planescape, there's (as Jem knows) a gimmick called spell keys, an object, phrase, or other focus that can alter spells so that they can function on planes where they ordinarily wouldn't. Succubi might know a spell key that lets them use their ethereal jaunt ability to access other Abyssal layers.

But note that the incorporeal subtype has nothing to do with being on other planes. It just means they have no body, regardless of what plane they're on. Where are they when they're incorporeal? Right where they seem to be. A shadow is incorporeal, but it doesn't exist partially on the Ethereal plane. Ethereal jaunt makes you insubstantial, which is different from incorporeal; an ethereal creature is affected by force effects, other ethereal creatures, gaze attacks, abjurations, and certain specialized magic but is utterly immune to even most magic weapons on the Material Plane. An incorporeal creature, on the other hand, is immune to all nonmagical attacks on any plane and has a 50% chance of avoiding force effects or magic weapons. An incorporeal creature's attacks ignore armor, while an ethereal creature can't normally attack a creature on the Material Plane without first going there. Ethereal characters can pass through solid ground, while incoporeal characters have to remain adjacent to the surface for some reason. Gaseous form makes you insubstantial, but doesn't provide the benefits of being incorporeal. They're just different things.

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Re: So what are the Denizens of Ravenloft?

darsius wrote:
Dreams are in the border ethereal? I find that very odd as the Ethereal plane connects the Prime Material and inner planes together. It doesn't seem as though that would be a plane of the mind. I would almost imagine dreamscapes to be in the deep Astral. As the Astral is the plane of thought which links the Prime Material with the Outer Planes (planes spawned almost entirely from belief).

The Ethereal Plane is the plane of possibility, the place where dreams, matter, energy, thought, and the planes of existence are born. The misty substance of the plane is continually churning and shaping itself into half-formed things; rarely, it becomes something more solid, and this solid ether slowly accumulates until it forms into demiplanes. Over the eons, it's believed that demiplanes can become full planes, and this is how the elemental planes and the Material Plane came to be. The colorful border region between the Border Ethereal and Deep Ethereal responds to the thoughts of dreaming minds, and sometimes the raw stuff of potential responds to these dreams and creates dreamscapes. These are normally ephemeral things that dissolve as soon as the dreamer wakes, but rarely one will last longer in the form of a demiplane-like region in the Deep Ethereal, possibly evolving into something greater - not places of thought, but new forms of reality. Sages who study the Ethereal Plane (and the Nightmare Lands of Ravenloft) believe that dreams aren't just thoughts, they're a separate level of reality less vivid than our own. And some believe there are further levels of reality that our reality is, in comparison, just a fleeting dream to. One such realm, in Mount Celestia, is the home of the mercurials, who are able to manipulate creatures of our lesser reality as if they were mere fleeting thoughts.

The Astral Plane isn't the plane of the mind, it's just an emptiness between planes where thoughts and beliefs sometimes leak through the holes made by planewalkers. Because time, space, and matter don't truly exist there, these thoughts are effectively as solid as anything else. It's not where thoughts are born, though; it's where thoughts, souls, and even gods go to die, when they can no longer sustain themselves anywhere else. The Astral is thus a place of dead dreams, dreams that have been forgotten, rather than living dreams as they're being experienced.

The Demiplane of Dread is part of the Ethereal Plane because it's a semi-formed plane, still congealing from the raw stuff of possibility. It's not necessarily about "ideas of evil," just a demiplane being toyed with by mysterious dark powers. But to what purpose? Not everything taken into the Demiplane of Dread is evil; good-aligned champions and neutral-aligned innocents are also stolen into the plane. Some believe the Dark Powers are collecting evil beings and testing them, refining them so that they can empower the demiplane's transformation into something greater, a full plane (perhaps an outer plane?). Or perhaps it's the heroes that are being tested, and the Dark Powers are really about refining the nature of good. Perhaps the Demiplane of Dread is a prison plane meant to quarantine great evil from the universe, or perhaps it's a womb plane designed to remake the multiverse into its image. Perhaps the Dark Powers are beyond simplistic notions of good and evil and they simply feed off of the powerful emotions generated when a heart is divided against itself. Perhaps the real purpose of the plane is found not in the dark depths to which some of the darklords descend, but in the fiery passions, aspirations, and love that drove them there.

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Re: So what are the Denizens of Ravenloft?

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And some believe there are further levels of reality that our reality is, in comparison, just a fleeting dream to. One such realm, in Mount Celestia, is the home of the mercurials, who are able to manipulate creatures of our lesser reality as if they were mere fleeting thoughts.

Yes, I am aware of the higher reality. I've actually played through that adventure. We had an exceptionally long conversation about it several months after with our GM. It was very eye opening and metaphysical.

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Re: So what are the Denizens of Ravenloft?

ripvanwormer wrote:
The Ethereal Plane is the plane of possibility, the place where dreams, matter, energy, thought, and the planes of existence are born.

I know this is the official take on it but; I agree with the dissenters. To me, dreams are the realm of thought and belief and therefore seem more in place (to me) in the Astral/Outer Planes

In my schema, I created a "Border Astral" to parallel the Border Ethereal. It was a perfect (geometric) plane of no depth that seperates the Astral and the Prime. However when mortals (and others) dream, it creates bubbles that extend out of (but remain connected to) the Border Astral. Within each of these bubbles lies the dreamscape created by the dreamer. When the dreamer awakens, the bubble bursts and returns to its natural state as the Border Astral
Can these bubbles break free, become autonomous, etc.? Who can say? But it does lead to some cool ideas in my mind

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