Size of the Planes

The innermost layer of Carceri, Agathys, seems to be only a single orb, with no others in sight. I can't recall if there seem to be infinitely many of these orbs, one accessible from each "multilayered pearl," but somehow I'm under the impression that there's supposed to be only one, period.

Of course, each orb of Carceri is itself finite, even if an infinitude of others can be seen.

In a sense the Outlands are finite, since there's a definite outer perimeter -- the 9th ring and the gatetowns -- and beyond it is the Hinterlands, which don't seem like they're even capable of containing anything stable of interest.

That's it for finite layers as far as I can recall. The actual inhabited portion of Pelion is pretty small these days.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that Nessus is finite in length and breadth, but due to some of the ravines is infinite in depth. I can't recall where I read it. Though it wasn't the FC: II because I don't have that book.

Mechanus is finite, though the void it is contained within is infinite. The same goes for Gehanna.

I always got the impression Agathys had multiple orbs like every other layer, they were just so far apart as to be invisible to each other.

It should be noted that since there is no "void" for Baator to lie in (besides the Astral), saying that all its layers are finite actually means that the plane itself must be finite as well. Since this contradicts everything that is know about the nature of the Outer Planes and there is little evidence to back up the claim, it can safely be ignored.

The Abyssal layers on the other hand are infinitely numerous, so even if every single layer were finite (or so boring after a certain point that it may as well be finite) the plane itself would still be infinite. Also, given the sheer variety of the Abyss it can reasonably be assumed that some of the layers may well be finite (to the extant that anything on the Outer Planes can be considered finite). I'm not sure if there is any established canon on which planes layers might be finite, but I doubt there is anything strictly wrong with what it says in FC1

My main problem with the FC1 is that it claims the Plain of Infinite Portals is finite. Not to make too much of its name, but it should be endless.

Strictly speaking, you could start out with a finite layer with a finite number of portals and have it link to some some layer with twice as many portals to deeper layers on it, which in turn links to a layer with twice as many portals as that, and keep doing that forever and still have infinite layers without ever having a layer with infinite portals.

You could also say that the Abyss had an infinite number of layers, but an infinite number of them have no portals leading to them, and still have an infinitely layered Abyss without an infinite number of portals.

I would, however, prefer the Plain of Infinite Portals to actually have an infinite number of portals on it.

No, that's not exactly right.

In the 1st edition Monster Manual II, Nirvana was divided into 64 sectors, like a grid. No cogs were mentioned. It didn't say the plane was finite, just that it could be divided into 64 parts.

We knew even then that the modrons weren't all there was to Nirvana, because many of the gods in the earlier-published Deities & Demigods were said to dwell there. Shang-ti, Anu, Rudra, and a number of others lived on that plane. The god Lendor of Oerth was also placed there in Dragon Magazine.

Nirvana wasn't conceptualized as a series of interlocking gears until the 1st edition Manual of the Planes, which specifically said the plane was infinite.

Here's the quote:

"Nirvana is a single infinite plane with planar layers that extend in all directions, without true floor or ceiling. The void is filled, however, with huge interlocking wheels, like the internal cogs of an ornately carved clock."

Here's another quote from the same book:

"The best-known realm of Nirvana for most Prime Material travelers is that of Primus, the One and Prime. Primus is said to be the greatest of the Great Powers of the plane of Nirvana and is said to dwell in a pool of energy at the center of the plane. As an infinite plane has no center, this statement may be assumed to be the standard "center of the universe" attitude that surrounds all such powerful beings."

The book goes on to describe the realms of the various gods who live there outside of Primus' domain.

It wasn't until Planescape that the 64 sectors were identified as 64 interlocking cogs among the infinite other cogs on the same plane. In 1st edition it would have seemed that the 64 octons were responsible for watching over the entire infinity of the plane, but Planescape brought that down to a more manageable level.

The Planescape Conspectus says that the number of gears in Mechanus is "uncountable."

Oh yes, Baator must have at least one infinite layer unless for some reason we want to send basically all LE petitioners to Acheron and give Hell only handpicked souls. (Which seems self-contradictory if the devils don't actually want nupperibos.) I'm saying the part outside the devil and kyton areas can't have much variation if it doesn't send a vast new army of nupperibo-derived natives to attack the interlopers every second of every day. So at least one Lord of the Nine probably does have broad reality-shaping powers that can trump the plane's natural inclinations -- though perhaps not enough to reshape Malebolge. They haven't managed to redesign petitioner-creation across the board.

I agree with the others on the Plane of Infinite Portals being a plane of infinite portals.

You can call Carceri infinite without self-contradiction provided that nobody ever meets a true gehreleth by accident unless they or someone they want to find chooses to visit the tiny area where these fiends live. Elsewhere you'd only meet emissaries their god has decided to send just for you, and rogue demons with a gehreleth-roleplay fetish.

Wow. What things to read first thing in the morning. Sir - I have sacrificed my keyboard to you. *goes to get towel to clean up coffee splutter*

That could work. But even the 3e MotP doesn't place Nerull at the center of his orb -- it says his priests dare not explore the tunnels that "lead deeper into the ice of the layer". I hear that earlier sources didn't place him in Agathys at all.

that leads to a question - is it a planar 'constant' that deeper layers = more intense of whatever it is that the plane represents? I know it's fairly obviously so for Mt. Celestia and for Baator - but is it true in the non-lawful planes as well?