Should Summon Monster spells work in Sigil?

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Anetra's picture
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Should Summon Monster spells work in Sigil?

Sorry, I know this may be an obvious question : <. I know that it should be impossible to enter Sigil via any means other than the Lady's gates: eg, no Planeshift, Gate, etc etc. However, does this include other creatures getting in? Can you use a Summon Monster, or Summon Planar Ally, spell while in Sigil to summon ... anything?

If it works, what planes are Sigil adjacent to? What creatures can be summoned that are 'Native to Sigil?' Can Fiends use their abilities to summon reinforcements while in Sigil? Etc, etc, etc.

Thanks!

Jem
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Re: Should Summon Monster spells work in Sigil?

Nope, no summons or gate spells work in Sigil. (P. 40, Planewalker's Handbook.) Fiends also can't be summoned out, which some of them really appreciate.

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Re: Should Summon Monster spells work in Sigil?

Okay, so supposing the following: Someone summoned a creature, then went through a portal into Sigil. Would the creature go into Sigil with them (if ordered to do so), or would it kind of ... disappear? If the creature died while in Sigil, would it then be permanently killed?

Jem
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Re: Should Summon Monster spells work in Sigil?

It's a curious corner case for a canon call. The easiest answer would be that the portal doesn't function for the summoned creature, because the Lady doesn't like people trying to get around her rules.

The next possibility is that the summoning runs its usual course, including allowing the creature in to Sigil, and then the creature vanishes. Summoned creatures aren't "really there," as compared to a creature that's called or gated in.

Me, I'd go with the first answer.

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Re: Should Summon Monster spells work in Sigil?

I'd rule that Summon Creature works in Sigil, it just summons creatures that are already in Sigil. You can simply come up with a different list of creatures in Sigil. Celestial/Fiendish whatever is a little boring, but maybe it summons Cranium Rats, or common nuisances and pests from Undersigil, the odd Elemental roaming the hidden passages of the Cage, a Dretch that was at a bar before being summoned, or even members of a Hive street gang.

I think that it's an unwise and unfair restriction against PCs if they don't work in Sigil.

Jem
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Re: Should Summon Monster spells work in Sigil?

The idea of Summon Monster summoning the appropriate creatures from somewhere in Sigil -- if they exist -- would work for me from a physics point of view, although the flavor from the books seems to be that they don't. The Planewalker's Handbook talks about fiends being so relieved not to get summoned that they'll even behave better to stay in Sigil a while longer. Maybe A'kin really, really is trying to avoid a longstanding summoning effect that's waiting for him if he ever sets foot out of the Cage...

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Re: Should Summon Monster spells work in Sigil?

Okay, this is going in some really weird directions here. Which is cool for Planescape, that's a little bit what it's about, but ... jeez.

So you'd say that a Summoned creature wouldn't make it through the portal, but that likely a Gated creature would? So you take this gated creature into Sigil, and then it dies - what happens to the thing's soul? Does it go back to it's home plane, or is it trapped in Sigil?

This goes for mortals, too. Can their souls reach the afterlife if they die in Sigil? Do they still become petitioners? I imagine a lot of folk die in Sigil, after all. This is starting to go into weird True Death territory, or possibly an origin story of the Dabus, so I'll quit the conjecture and just ask if anyone else has ... read anything about this stuff? Sorry if it's already in Planewalker's Handbook or In the Cage or something :<

Or maybe this is really what the Lady of Pain is all about. Devouring souls.

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Re: Should Summon Monster spells work in Sigil?

Dabuses as the souls of people who die in Sigil? O_o Wow, that's a pretty heavy implication! I love it!

"So, you want to the dark on the Lady's helpers, eh berk? Scan this. Y'ever wonder what happens to poor sods who die here in the city and can't find their way to whatever afterlife waits for them? You can't very well have a bunch of listless petitioners wandering about, can you? So, the Lady put's 'em all to work."

Jem
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Re: Should Summon Monster spells work in Sigil?

Here's what happens at the end of the gate spell:

"Immediately upon completion of the service, the being is transported to your vicinity, and you must then and there turn over the promised reward. After this is done, the creature is instantly freed to return to its own plane."

The first effect will not transport the creature in or out of Sigil, but could teleport it from anywhere in Sigil to you. Otherwise, if you were in Sigil and the creature were outside when the task completed for example, I would have the creature sense this information and know that it could reach you by going to the nearest appropriate portal. You might have it simply terminate the spell if the creature is outside Sigil and you are in... but this means that the spellcaster in question has just summoned an extremely powerful Outer Planar entity and breached a contract with it!

The second effect frees the creature, but doesn't necessarily transport it anywhere. Usually such creatures can plane shift on their own. In Sigil, they're going to be leaving by the door.

-----

An intriguing idea about petitioners. Perfectly good conspiracy theory for a game. I'd have the normal case be that any given soul takes a simple portal out and then the usual conduits to the appropriate divine realm. This normally happens immediately and almost automatically, most of the time. You can get to Mechanus even if you die in Limbo, for example.

Now, you might require that any resurrection involving summoning the soul from the afterlife -- that is, a resurrection that doesn't involve a soul that has hung around in Sigil -- might require moving the target body outside of the City! We don't hear about this one way or the other in canon, that I can recall, though it makes a logical consequence of the setting stipulation.

Certainly any magical construction that involves summoning a spirit will need to do so outside of Sigil.

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Re: Should Summon Monster spells work in Sigil?

The idea that Sigil is a prison for the souls of those who die there is elaborated on a little on the Mimir.

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Re: Should Summon Monster spells work in Sigil?

I have allowed people to use summon spells in Sigil, but they always get something already in the city itself - something similar to the creature they were after if the exact thing isn't available.

There are other problems, however ... for example intelligent beings may feel compelled to come to the player's aid, but that doesn't mean they are actually controlled by the magic ... I tend to play it more like a "Friends" spell, where the creature feels ablidged to help, but may expect something in return once the spell ends. Individuals who are well compensated are more likely to return again when called, while those who are not may become unpleasant to deal with. (just how unpleasant is up the GM ... me, I tend to use this as a roleplaying tool and occasional story hook)

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Re: Should Summon Monster spells work in Sigil?

^^That was my thought. Summoning should work in some areas of Sigil, but only with non-sentient species. For instance, it should work just fine in The Hive if you want to summon nearby cranium rats, dire rats, pest swarms, etc.
Summoning sentient creatures shouldn't work as this would disrupt the peace. Summoning domesticated animals also shouldn't work; they're someone else's property, so this would also disturb the peace (strays can be summoned, though).

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Re: Should Summon Monster spells work in Sigil?

I don't think there's any magical enforcement of "keeping the peace", at least in the sense you seem to be using it. Various laws in Sigil might prohibit summoning sentient or domesticated creatures, for the reason you listed, but I don't think it should be impossible.

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Re: Should Summon Monster spells work in Sigil?

"Keeping the peace" wouldn't stop anyone from summoning, since most of the time they're using summoning to fight someone. And those who get into fights usually have keeping the peace being the last thing on their minds.

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Re: Should Summon Monster spells work in Sigil?

I always saw this restriction as an unnecessary nerf on a single school of magic, especially if a player likes to play a Conjurer specialist mage. So, it's OK for an Evoker to blast things left and right with Fireballs, but a Conjurer can't call up a temporary guard dog? Maybe "Summon" Monster is a misnomer; looking at the specialist title, I'd rather think they Conjure up temporary copies of real creatures. I mean, otherwise it would be somewhat evil of a mage to on a whim summon an actual creature to be maimed and/or killed when it was just wandering about minding its own business. So, these Conjured copies are made up of bits of matter/energy from whatever place the spell is cast and the energy of the spell itself. After the spell expires or the Conjured creature "dies" these components disperse back into the plane. So in the end, the Lady's rules aren't broken, since there is no actual summoning involved.

I thought I read something like this on how "Elementals" are "Summoned" to the Outer Planes, despite the lack of connection to the Inner Planes. This was the explanation before the Ordial plane was posited anyway.

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Re: Should Summon Monster spells work in Sigil?

I think part of the issue on summoning in Sigil is about just what kind of things people can summon at high levels. The Lady isn't about to let mages run about in her city summoning hydra and 32 hit die elementals to decimate the streets. Nor does she want creatures such as demons summoning hoards of their followers into the city, thereby getting around the need to use a gate.

Keep in mind, though, that neither is some mage rampaging about tossing fireballs going to get away with his behavior - at best he'll end up on the wrong end up some Hardheads or the Red Death, if that doesn't work they may just get themselves mazed. (not to mention, if you're running about tossing fireballs into people's kips, those "people" are going to take exception ... and there are many "people" living in the cage you'd do better not to upset.)

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Re: Should Summon Monster spells work in Sigil?

Yeah, the mad fireball tossing was a bit of an extreme example on my point... How about an Enchanter charming his way wantonly up the social ladder? There's no real restriction on them, not the same kind of repercussions from the Lady anyway.

All things in moderation, I say, so high level Summon spells may be out. But I still say it's not fair to totally single Conjurers' main line of spells out like this, and at least some should be allowed, possibly all if you go by my [conjured-creature-isn't-real] variation above. Finally, a summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, so even the real summoned ones can't call in more - therefore no worries of an exponential summon horde.

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Re: Should Summon Monster spells work in Sigil?

Jack of tears wrote:
I think part of the issue on summoning in Sigil is about just what kind of things people can summon at high levels. The Lady isn't about to let mages run about in her city summoning hydra and 32 hit die elementals to decimate the streets. Nor does she want creatures such as demons summoning hoards of their followers into the city, thereby getting around the need to use a gate.
Hydras and 32 Hit Die Elementals are nothing compared to near deities which are the issue. Especially when there's Great Wyrm Dragons (most likely in disguise), Balors and Epic Level Characters who are even more disruptive. The only summoning spell that might be an issue to the Lady's policy is Gate. Nothing called by Summon Monster 9, or Elemental Swarm or Elemental Monolith is really a massive threat.

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Re: Should Summon Monster spells work in Sigil?

They are a threat to the populace of Sigil, considering how much damage a Hydra or a Huge Elemental could do before being put down. Logistically you just don't want those things rampaging through your city. At least the Balor, Epic Characters, and Great Worms are intelligent and free willed enough not to go about causing random devastation - for fear of the Lady among other things - summoned creatures suffer under no such restraint.

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Re: Should Summon Monster spells work in Sigil?

Jack of tears wrote:
They are a threat to the populace of Sigil, considering how much damage a Hydra or a Huge Elemental could do before being put down. Logistically you just don't want those things rampaging through your city. At least the Balor, Epic Characters, and Great Worms are intelligent and free willed enough not to go about causing random devastation - for fear of the Lady among other things - summoned creatures suffer under no such restraint.
The duration of those summon spells is measured in rounds or minutes per level. Summon creatures are quite under the control of those who summon them in 3.5e rules. They never are uncontrolled. And only really do about 30 damage per round at the most. Which isn't exactly city destroying.

Spells like Firestorm which has an area of a bunch of 10 foot squares per level, can cause massive devastation. Earthquake is also another very damaging spell. And it's not like they are actually blocked from being cast in Sigil.

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Re: Should Summon Monster spells work in Sigil?

The Summon Monster spells specifically bring in creatures from other planes. This renders them inoperable within Sigil. If summoned creatures are ordered to pass through a portal into Sigil the spell for those particular creatures ends, as if they were slain before the end of the spells duration. Other creatures summoned by the same spell who do not pass the portal remain ntil the end of the spell.
This is akin to forcing a protection spell against a hedged creature.
Only living creatures, and petitioners who have formed bodies are bound by the Lady's astral barrier. Fresh spirits which have not yet fromed into petitioners pass towards their destination plane.

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Re: Should Summon Monster spells work in Sigil?

malakai wrote:
If summoned creatures are ordered to pass through a portal into Sigil the spell for those particular creatures ends, as if they were slain before the end of the spells duration. Other creatures summoned by the same spell who do not pass the portal remain until the end of the spell. This is akin to forcing a protection spell against a hedged creature. Only living creatures, and petitioners who have formed bodies are bound by the Lady's astral barrier. Fresh spirits which have not yet formed into petitioners pass towards their destination plane.

Why? Are these (somewhat heavy-handed) ways of doing things preferable to the other options some of us have presented?

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Re: Should Summon Monster spells work in Sigil?

I see the summon monster spell as something of a magical contract. The spell expends energy to import creatures across a planer boundry, creating a tension which relaxes at the spell's end, returning them home. Crossing a second planer boundry strecthes the tension to thin, and it snaps, and the "contract" is broken.
If summoned creatures are killed, they return to where they came from unharmed. Indeed Player Characters who are Planars (buy not Primes) can be struck by spell crystals and summoned thus. The Abyss chapter of the great modron march module has an example of this.
I see these creatures when summoned, as being akin to an astral projection. A projection of sorts would explain why they are not killed when slain while under the spell, merely returned to the place of origin, the way a slain astral projector would be. This is also along the lines of creatures which can only be killed on their home plane. The projection which enters other planes is not really their true body.

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Re: Should Summon Monster spells work in Sigil?

Bringing them in through portals is a clever idea, though. And maybe ought to be allowed.
Conjurers do have it rough, its pretty much the most interfered with and modified school throughout the planes. On Acheron they require Hostages. Other schools can have it rough in certain places, Illusions are pretty much useless on Mechanus and Radiance, and downright dangerous on the Ethereal, where they can come alive and attacke the caster.
Necromantic healing is pretty tough on all the lower planes.
Maybe a special spell key would allow them to be used. This would allow a DM to balance their use to his particular game.

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Re: Should Summon Monster spells work in Sigil?

malakai wrote:
I see the summon monster spell as something of a magical contract. The spell expends energy to import creatures across a planer boundry, creating a tension which relaxes at the spell's end, returning them home. Crossing a second planer boundry strecthes the tension to thin, and it snaps, and the "contract" is broken. If summoned creatures are killed, they return to where they came from unharmed. Indeed Player Characters who are Planars (buy not Primes) can be struck by spell crystals and summoned thus. The Abyss chapter of the great modron march module has an example of this. I see these creatures when summoned, as being akin to an astral projection. A projection of sorts would explain why they are not killed when slain while under the spell, merely returned to the place of origin, the way a slain astral projector would be. This is also along the lines of creatures which can only be killed on their home plane. The projection which enters other planes is not really their true body.

That's an interesting idea, but how does that jive with the way summoning is shown to work in Ravenloft? There creatures can be summoned in just fine, but when the spell ends, the summoned creatures are still there, stuck in the demiplane just like anything else, and no longer under the control of the caster. Would you rule that as just another way the Dark Powers twist normal magic in their realm? Ah, or maybe having the end of the spell "snap" in the opposite direction when you're there, pulling the real you into the demiplane instead of vice-versa.

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