Running Thoughts on BoD III (The Daemons)

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sciborg2's picture
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Running Thoughts on BoD III (The Daemons)

Went through almost all of this yesterday, but now I'm going to go back and just post some thoughts on Paizo's daemons. (There's also an interview with Shemmy in the editor's queue waiting to be approved..."Hint Hint Nudge Nudge Wink Wink" as Darkwing Duck would say)

Memorable things from my first pass were the scientific experimentation of the daemons, their subtypes born from mortals dying in different ways, and their fascination with - and simultaneous loathing - of mortal life.

As a book focusing on nihilistic fiends, this was a dark book. We're treated to daemons born from things as disturbing as children left to die in the cold, and as sad as despairing but evilly aligned suicides. Thankfully, this manages to be handled well as its clear that the nature of reality requires heroes to combat such evil and in some cases injustice.

The depravity and lunacy of the daemons is at the forefront, and the text mentions that they are so insane as to murder those that summoned them - such is there hatred of life. I like this, that evil leads to such weakness, as usually it seems we are presented with the celestials as foolish and bumbling but fiends as masterminds unaffected by their status as exemplars.

The psychology of the daemons is really well done, and probably the thing I keep going back to. They hate life, but come from life, and this leads to a strange obsession with life on their parts. More than the other fiends, daemons seem interested in the creation of life, which they tell themselves is based on making new engines of murder. I like having fiends that try to rationalize their own actions, these flaws and insecurities make them more interesting than engines of destruction incapable of goals/relationships or master manipulators who can't be beaten.

One nitpick - The mention of infant fat used to make candles. On initial reading this took me out of the text, it seemed sorta over the top...then again, daemons are so obsessed with our deaths it kind makes sense they'd want to revel in the death of those so young.

The other thing that felt like it was heading into grimdark territory was the idea of daemons born from evil suicides. It does make sense, and does fit the themes, and it specifically states these souls were evil. Guess it might just be too dark for me to use, it isn't exactly a complaint against the text though.

There is a lot more good stuff, curious if others have gotten the book and what they think of it.

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Shemeska the Marauder's picture
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Re: Running Thoughts on BoD III (The Daemons)

I wanted them to be flawed and almost things of pity in a way, to distinguish them from the yugoloths. While the 'loths can be construed too easily as tools of their own makers, the baernaloths, guided by a perfect hand and never having to feel such mortal emotions as doubt, the daemons aren't as lucky.

The daemons are adrift, lost in every sense of the term, and filled with a gnawing sense of self-doubt and self-hatred given their origins. They also don't have anyone to answer their questions, to give them meaning, to give them direction other than the Four. And the thing is, the Four are just as adrift as the rest of them, albeit with godlike power and more knowledge.

The closest thing that they had to a baernaloth creator/mentor/father-mother, the First, well they killed him, or at least they tried. The only thing they had to ground them, they bound and each year they worship it, torture it, and devour bits of it like a perverse sacrament to keep it from coming back, and yet it's almost like they're begging for approval as they do so. These aren't the all-knowing puppetmaster 'loths, these are wretches born of the worst of mortality, who exist to devour the world and perhaps then end themselves.

As for the infant tallow candle, perhaps it was a bit over the top, though the intent was to have them be the creations of batshit crazy mortal cultists invoking their masters in the process to stamp the wax and provide its power. Given the focus on life/death, it made sense in a way to have a perversion of birth become a window for their influence. But if it's too over the top, I hope it wasn't that often it went into Grimdark territory. Smiling

sciborg2's picture
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Re: Running Thoughts on BoD III (The Daemons)

Oh definitely not too grimdark - and I think a book about fiends necessitates some grimdark.

I like games dealing with good and evil, but I tend to skirt away from the really dark stuff - but that is a personal preference and not a complaint about the book. I actually think you did a good job providing material for varying levels of darkness, given every group is going to have different preferences.

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Shemeska the Marauder's picture
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Re: Running Thoughts on BoD III (The Daemons)

Oh, so I went back to the original manuscript, and it turns out that I didn't create the infant fat bit that you thought might have been a bit over the top. I created the item yes, but the infant fat in its creation was added in by my editors. Smiling

Hyena of Ice's picture
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Re: Running Thoughts on BoD III (The Daemons)

One of the ideas I had for a really grimdark adventure involved children of an orphanage. However, this orphanage was merely a front for a coal mine powered by child slave labor (unfortunately not uncommon during the 19th century BTW). The children, in their desperation, call out to the gods or to anyone for help (and vengeance). The yugoloths answer.
When the PCs arrive, the owner and most workers of the coal mining company have become victims of a greusome murder, and as the adventure progresses, the PCs learn the truth about the so-called orphanage, and eventually make their way to an abandoned mine (one that lacks coal) where they encounter the children (by now they've figured out that the kids might be the murderers). The children are in an altar room for the General of Gehenna, and have been robbed of every last fragment of innocence (they are now assassins by profession) I'm not sure what the solution would be in this case, though I cannot imagine the kids NOT attempting to slay the PCs for learning about their dark secret (although I can easily picture the party bard succeeding in saving some of the kids who have yet to fall completely to the dark side) Obviously most players wouldn't like an adventure like that. Oh, yeah, when the PCs hunt down the leader of the yugoloth band responsible for corrupting the children, he responds with "And what is wrong with what I did? I gave these children exactly what they wanted! They didn't want a savior, they wanted revenge on the adults who so horribly exploited them!"

sciborg2's picture
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Re: Running Thoughts on BoD III (The Daemons)

That's actually a good way to complicate the choices of the PCs, and a good use of the yugoloths.

Not sure if it would work with the Paizo daemons as much, given their hair-trigger, murderous personalities though perhaps with Charon, as he's the one with the most patient of servants.

Will post more about the book thoughts tomorrow.

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sciborg2's picture
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Re: Running Thoughts on BoD III (The Daemons)

I can't help but feel that Devils and Daemons would be most in conflict, given that the Daemons want to ruin the prize the Devils are seeking. Demons might be angry over the lost toy that is the world, but their self predation in the Abyss (which seems to be as pervasive, if not more so, than the Maelstrom) would likely distract them after a time...

=-=-=

ETA: Sorry Shemmy, I keep meaning to reply but I'm multitasking and that keeps getting the better of me.

Yeah, the baby-fat candle thing wasn't a big deal (so glad no one is reading over my shoulder haha), just a minor thing that took me out of the text. But glad to see I can pin the blame for that on someone other than a 'loth with lots of planar connections...

Er, did I mention how fine you look in your razor vine headdress milady?

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