Rogue outsiders and alignment subtypes

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Dalmosh's picture
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Rogue outsiders and alignment subtypes

Planescape certainly has its share of fallen Celestials, rogue Modrons and the like. For the most part these are individuals who have broken out of the usual mold for their race to pursue a life under a different core philosophy or ideal from their kindred and plane of origin. 'Fallen' celestials (e.g. Baalzebul, Adimarchus and Xenghara) tend to have much more evil-looking physical forms than they did prior to their fall. Rogue modrons, which have become somewhat less Lawful, will automatically reform to resemble quadrones. Naturally, many other such examples exist of permanent shifts in the physical and intrinsic nature of aligned beings whose alignments have shifted.

Evil creatures can also have their standard alignment subtypes replaced with the 'Good' subtype through a year's magical isolation under the Sanctify the Wicked spell (Exalted Deeds). Presumably similar spells could exist for different alignment shifts as well. A Sanctified fiend has a new alignment and a new 'Good' subtype, though its physical appearance does not change.

I have always seen alignment subtypes as representing the default hard-wiring of certain creatures, i.e a yugoloth has the evil subtype because the creature is a physical expression of the ideal of neutral evil and is bound to the Lower Planes. The subtype helps the Plane to defend itself by driving its inhabitants to act like an immune system against invaders. But how constraining are alignment subtypes upon the individual alignment of the subtyped creature? Alignment in D&D is represented as a series of discrete categories. Practically though, one outsider may be much more neutral than another of the same kind while still retaining the same alignment. Accordingly, alignment is better viewed as a continuum along two different axes with categorical boundaries.

As an example, could a Tanar'ari adopt an alignment other than Chaotic Evil even though it has the Chaos and Evil subtypes? If it stopped acting chaotically for an extended period, would that eventually cause it to lose the Chaos subtype and become a fiend of neutral evil? How long would this take and what would be required? Would such a rogue demon still be able to access its spell-like abilities, or would they stop working due to a weakened connection to the Abyss?

I found it a bit difficult DMing a group including a Succubus for this reason. The player tended more towards neutral evil in how he played his character. I could never quite decide the extent to which the demon's Chaos subtype should drive it to behave in certain ways, and what would happen to it when it stopped doing so. Any thoughts or ideas on game mechanisms to represent what a subtype-aligned creature can and cannot do and what happens within the grey areas are much appreciated.

Zimrazim's picture
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Re: Rogue outsiders and alignment subtypes

I've heard fiends, modrons, and other such races referred to as "exemplars" before. There's a reason for it: they are meant to be exemplary representatives of their alignments.

An exemplar being that is not of its 'proper' alignment (CE for tanar'ri, LN for modrons, etc.) is fallen/risen/rogue/whatever you call it. So yes, you can be an NE succubus, but there is a price to pay for it. One of which would be the reactions of other tanar'ri!

I'm not sure whether an NE succubus would lose some of its spell-like abilities, though I would guess not.

Personally, I wouldn't normally be into playing an exemplar being for just this reason. A non-rogue exemplar being played true to form is pretty constrained in its behavior (alignment) and, because of that, lacking a certain depth of which mortals are capable. That's not to say they can't impersonate other alignments (just look at A'kin), but ultimately an exemplar is very much a representative of its alignment.

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Re: Rogue outsiders and alignment subtypes

I have always seen alignment subtypes as representing the default hard-wiring of certain creatures, i.e a yugoloth has the evil subtype because the creature is a physical expression of the ideal of neutral evil and is bound to the Lower Planes. The subtype helps the Plane to defend itself by driving its inhabitants to act like an immune system against invaders. But how constraining are alignment subtypes upon the individual alignment of the subtyped creature?
Basically, you're talking about a defective creature. Just like most defects, a defective alignment on the Outer Planes is wholly incompatible with life on said native plane (or at least not compatible for long). However, the incidence rate can likely be compared to developmental or neurological mitochondrial disorders (e.g. many cases of autism spectrum disorders) and completely random genetic mutations. In other words, the incidence can be as high as 5% of births (less likely to be spontaneous creation from the plane's essence), but due to natural selection, only 1% or so of that 5% will reach sexual maturity.
However, with non-inherited alignment changes, you're talking mostly about environment, which can be very difficult to gauge because there are so many variables. Major interplanar wars and other significant tumultuous events for instance are far more likely to result in alignment shifts than vanilla planewalking and planar trade.

'Fallen' celestials (e.g. Baalzebul, Adimarchus and Xenghara)
You forgot about Asmodeus, the most important fallen celestial of all.

As an example, could a Tanar'ari adopt an alignment other than Chaotic Evil even though it has the Chaos and Evil subtypes?
Not normally, no. Not any more than the average humanoid could develop paranoid schizophrenia from exposure to Toxoplasma gondii, using too many drugs, and/or watching too many X-Files episodes. Supernatural means and neurosises are of course a different matter.

If it stopped acting chaotically for an extended period, would that eventually cause it to lose the Chaos subtype and become a fiend of neutral evil?
No, more likely it would simply go insane. It would be akin to a healthy 14yo boy foregoing fantasies about girls AND masturbation. With a lot of willpower they can suppress it for a certain amount of time, and they can avoid the urge if their lives are at stake.

or would they stop working due to a weakened connection to the Abyss?
The powers might change somewhat, but unless the fiend undergoes radical physiological-spiritual changes, it can no more sever its link to the essence of its home plane than a humanoid can sever its link to carbon atoms.
Now, as to a fiend that did shift its alignment, I would say that no, they would not lose their spell-like powers, but said powers will likely change due to the alteration of their essence. Which plane their essence comes from depends on many variables. In order to receive the essence of another plane, the fiend must accept that plane, and the plane itself must accept that fiend.

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Re: Rogue outsiders and alignment subtypes

Hyena, it seems you're arguing for a consistent, stable relationship between a plane and its inhabitants. I agree, but for a different reason. In literature, we often find that the themes of good vs. evil (moral vs. amoral, right vs. wrong) and society vs. individualism (law vs. chaos, order vs. disorder) emphasis the ease/difficulty of shifting from one view to another.

For example, the Bible presents Lucifer as the highest of the angels. But he falls from grace, and he never recovers. In fact, to my knowledge, there are no instances of the fallen regaining their angelic status. From there, I believe, we can trace a sort of literary lineage, where good characters can easily fall from their high-and-mighty status. Much as I dislike the latest installments, I think Star Wars provides a good example: Anikan constantly struggles with his anger, ignorance and arrogance against what he has been taught is right behavior. He wants to do things his way, but he's been told that's the wrong way, and it all culminates in his view shifting to darkness. However, it takes time, so maybe it's more an example of how a realistic fall takes place; the angel doesn't become evil after one wrong act; instead, it performs many small, seemingly insignificant transgressions, until it tries to justify its actions and starts to shift toward neutral, then evil.

Evil characters, however, have a much harder time redeeming themselves. Consider, again, Darth Vader: he continues to act like an evil person, and so justifies his actions as right and necessary, and when offered a chance to oppose the Emperor, he assumes he's beyond redemption. It's only in through a final sacrifice that he's able to achieve any sort of cleansing. Similarly, a person who has lost the trust of his companions (usually due to breaking some compact or rule) has a very difficult time regaining that trust: they'd have to do something rather extremely and drastic to prove that they're worthy of trust again.

This, I think, is reflective of something in human nature. When we trust a person, we put faith in their ability to do something the way we think it should be done. When they fail us, we learn to be wary. It takes a lot of effort to build up trust, but not a lot to lose it. I think this is reflected in our literature. When we apply this to Planescape and D&D (alignment), it means that angels and modrons, as exemplars of good and law, can more easily fall from their exalted status; demons and slaad, as exemplars of opposing views, have to work a lot harder to change their status.

So a demon or devil could force a change to its subtype (and it would probably lose some abilities, only to have the option of replacing them later) by engaging in consistent, routine behavior that represents the subtype (alignment) the player wants.

Actually, when I read over what I just wrote, I think it almost comes out as the opposite. Instead, I want to revise my conclusion: an extreme act of good or evil, law or chaos, can result in an immediate shift in personality (as the individual tries to justify the conflict between outlook and action). Smaller, less significant actions, however, have an impact but only if performed consistently over time. A random act of evil by an angel may be met with punishment, but that doesn't mean that the being will become neutral as a result, especially if it recognizes its mistake and seeks redemption.

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Re: Rogue outsiders and alignment subtypes

Anikan constantly struggles with his anger, ignorance and arrogance against what he has been taught is right behavior. He wants to do things his way, but he's been told that's the wrong way, and it all culminates in his view shifting to darkness. However, it takes time, so maybe it's more an example of how a realistic fall takes place; the angel doesn't become evil after one wrong act; instead, it performs many small, seemingly insignificant transgressions, until it tries to justify its actions and starts to shift toward neutral, then evil.
Prettymuch. That's usually how it is in D&D even among mortals-- barring supernatural instances. (BTW, I would argue that at least as Christians, we cannot make the assumption either way on possible salvation of fallen angels-- the whole nature of fallen angels in the Bible is such that even if salvation for them is possible, no good could come from informing mortal humans of this--) When you look at Asmodeus, the most famous example of a fallen celestial, the canon is clear that his fall did not take place suddenly; he was slowly corrupted over a period of millenia during the Law-Chaos war.
I propose that one prerequisite of corruption (be it good/evil/etc.) is prolongued contact with a corrupted individual, artifacts, plane, etc. Part of Asmodeus's fall was due to spending way too much time on the Abyss (along with too much contact with the Obyrith, manipulation by Pazuzu the corrupter, and trying to get into the Obyriths' heads so as to predict their moves.) As I recall, Asmodeus (as a celestial) would spend years at a time in the Abyss during war campaigns. I can also recall of adventure modules where an angel or archon gets captured and ends up imprisoned for way too long after spending decades to centuries suffering at the whims of demons or devils. Eventually said celestial becomes filled with despair that they will never be rescued, which turns to hatred of their own people and former masters for forsaking them. This of course only happens after their minds and bodies have been broken by their cruel captors. When the PCs free them, they are generally consumed with a lust for vengeance against those who dwell on the upper planes, along with any fiends involved in their torment.
Corruption while on one's native plane would be extremely difficult as the outsider is contantly nurtured by their plane's essence. Which brings up the fact that another aspect of a celestial's torment if captured on the Lower Planes is that it is trapped on a plane with an aura it finds unsettling at best and nauseating at worst, cut off from the plane that nurtures, comforts, and heals it.

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