Restoring "Exponential summoning"

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ShirreKnight's picture
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Restoring "Exponential summoning"

I'll admit, I've done more reading of game books then real playing but one of the major hallmarks of fiends in 2nd editino was

Leather head goes "Im going to summon a Balor or pitfiend

Leatherhead does so.

leatherHead gets eaten by balor or Pitfiend

BAlor or Pitfiend flys off and starts summoning up fiends and soon ammasses a sizable army

in 3rd edition we have none of that

Leatherhead summons baloror pitfiend

Leatherhead is eaten

but now the balor or pit fiend has to make do with VERY personal goals.. and cantbuildan armyon the prime

This may have been for game balance or such but thoughts and ideas on the issue and on the best way to "restore" that form of summoning

Best means seems to be a FEat to me, butthat would require not only the balor take it, but that the marlithhe summons etcdo so as well

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Re: Restoring "Exponential summoning"

I think the main issue is chaining off of summon monster. While it's fine for a balor to end up on the Prime and start the summon chain, it's not fine if this is done under the command of a PC. So I think it could work out to remove the no summoning restriction from an outsider's summon ally ability, the clause should definitely be kept for summon monster spells.

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Kobold Avenger's picture
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Re: Restoring "Exponential summoning"

The reason why this was removed from 3e and subsequent editions was definitely one of game balance. The issue is also about record keeping for DMs, and I'd think most DMs would want to strangle the PC if they started off a summon chain.

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Re: Restoring "Exponential summoning"

3rd edition takes game balance a little TOO far in some places.

most noticibly... drow have to take feats, to get powers that were haltergratis in 2nd edition

this is only notably bad, when you consider the fact those powers (levitate, detict magic, knowalignemnt) are almost fluff... and an efficency drivenchar will probaly want to invest a feat elesewhere

ShirreKnight's picture
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Re: Restoring "Exponential summoning"

3rd edition takes game balance a little TOO far in some places.

most noticibly... drow have to take feats, to get powers that were haltergratis in 2nd edition

this is only notably bad, when you consider the fact those powers (levitate, detict magic, knowalignemnt) are almost fluff... and an efficency drivenchar will probaly want to invest a feat elesewhere

Anyway hmmmn take it you also agree that if I REALLY want to restore open ended/ exponential summoning, is a feat a bad way to do it/

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Re: Restoring "Exponential summoning"

I suppose having to take a feat is a decent tradeoff considering the 2E restrictions the drow (as well as the other "demihuman" races) faced. Hell, as I recall, gnomes couldn't even reach level 20.

and an efficency drivenchar will probaly want to invest a feat elesewhere
You mean optimized builds? I'd think most DMs would want to discourage that sort of thing unless they only plan to run boring smash-and-grab campaigns.

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Re: Restoring "Exponential summoning"

I know too many players that saythat the terms "Twink!" "Munchkin!" and "Hack!" are all just ways of sneering at smart Players

I've felt that way myself a time or two.

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Re: Restoring "Exponential summoning"

ShirreKnight wrote:
I know too many players that saythat the terms "Twink!" "Munchkin!" and "Hack!" are all just ways of sneering at smart Players
There's a difference between smart players, and breaking the system to abuse something.

The first is maybe something like, "I have a polearm-based fighter with combat reflexes, and every feat I can add to that (such as Pathfinder's feats like Lunge with it's revision of Whirlwind Attack, and the Combat Patrol feat from the APG)."

The second such as that idea of Recursive Summoning, is something along the lines of, "Well it's the 2nd round of combat, and he's taking all his actions... It's going to be at least an hour before everything gets resolved for his turn, let's all go down to the store to pick up some food or buy some beer".

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Re: Restoring "Exponential summoning"

Optimizers/Munchkins usually play the system in such a way that role-playing and flavor building goes right out the window in the name of ultimate power, though. Clerics tend to be the most abused class by far.

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Re: Restoring "Exponential summoning"

There's a huge difference between optimizing your character and being a munchkin. You can optimize for all sorts of things besides combat, it's about nothing more than making your character mechanically good at the things you want them to be flavorfully good at. Optimization to ridiculous extremes can get awful, yes, but it's not bad as a whole.

If your character is meant to be good at fighting in their fluff, why wouldn't you optimize them for combat? Or if they're meant to be good at stealth, why not optimize them for that? Or anything along those lines, anything that's covered by mechanics. Saying otherwise is like saying "well, I think they're good at playing an instrument, but if I give them high Perform ranks that might be unfair". Optimization doesn't have to preclude roleplaying, and in fact it can enhance it by letting the mechanical outcome of events better fit your personal descriptive image of them.

Beyond that, looking into methods of optimization can be a great way to get a deeper understanding of the system, in order to better understand why some builds just are awful in certain circumstances and others aren't. Even if you hate the idea of min/maxing, being useless in combat (not useless as in "not the best", but literally doing nothing more than plinking at the enemy) when you don't want to be useless in combat can feel awful; I know from personal experience, it just makes you feel like in a combat scene you might as well not even be there when the best you can do is "aid another" on the guys that don't suck. And the knowledge gained from looking into the ways people make optimized builds can help to avoid making a build that's inadvertently awful.

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Re: Restoring "Exponential summoning"

Optimization to ridiculous extremes can get awful, yes, but it's not bad as a whole.
Unfortunately, when I encounter the term "optimized build", munchinizing is generally what it amounts to, and usually to the extreme where the player doesn't give a single thought or care about flavor and just wants Teh Powah.

If your character is meant to be good at fighting in their fluff, why wouldn't you optimize them for combat?
We're talking about a Cleric who takes the... lemee see... War, Sun, and then they ignore the deity rules and just let people choose whatever they want (domains, PrCs, etc.) so long as they meet the other prerequisites. In other words, War, Sun, and Radiant Servant of Pelor. Also, they don't have ANY fluff for their character. All they care about is the uber-power so they can smash and grab everything (i.e. kill everything in sight in a dungeoncrawl and grab every last bit of loot)

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Re: Restoring "Exponential summoning"

Hyena of Ice wrote:
Optimization to ridiculous extremes can get awful, yes, but it's not bad as a whole. Unfortunately, when I encounter the term "optimized build", munchinizing is generally what it amounts to, and usually to the extreme where the player doesn't give a single thought or care about flavor and just wants Teh Powah.

If your character is meant to be good at fighting in their fluff, why wouldn't you optimize them for combat?
We're talking about a Cleric who takes the... lemee see... War, Sun, and then they ignore the deity rules and just let people choose whatever they want (domains, PrCs, etc.) so long as they meet the other prerequisites. In other words, War, Sun, and Radiant Servant of Pelor. Also, they don't have ANY fluff for their character. All they care about is the uber-power so they can smash and grab everything (i.e. kill everything in sight in a dungeoncrawl and grab every last bit of loot)

And yeah, I said that stuff is dumb. But I do optimization stuff in concert with fluff rather than in lieu of it, so there's a counter-anecdote right there. Sticking out tongue

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Re: Restoring "Exponential summoning"

is their a reason you can see, why , even in 2nd edition, usualy fiends prefer to transport an entire army, to wherever by portal, rather then just send a balor or pit fiend there alone, then summon as much help as you need.

ShirreKnight's picture
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Re: Restoring "Exponential summoning"

is their a reason you can see, why , even in 2nd edition, usualy fiends prefer to transport an entire army, to wherever by portal, rather then just send a balor or pit fiend there alone, then summon as much help as you need.

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