Representing the Factions/Sects in 3e/3.5

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Emperor Xan's picture
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Representing the Factions/Sects in 3e/3.5

I'm curious as to the methods people use to represent the factions rules-wise in their campaigns. I personally favor templates that have an Belief Point cost (or XP cost if people don't like Belief Points) in addition to the faction's/sect's initiation ceremony. I use prestige classes to show specialization within the organization and unique feats only available to members of the group.

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I actually used to think that Prestige Classes or templates would be a better way to do factions, but now I really like the feats used by Planewalker. Not everyone in a faction should have the same abilities (from a template) or even any abilities at all. You have to devote yourself to the belief to really gain something tangible from it, which means spending feats. No need for added on belief point systems there, everyone likes feats.

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Really, you can honestly claim that everyone's in agreement with you?

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Forgot to mention that templates can be completely empty. You don't necessarily have to give a character anything and still have it be templated. This is the method I chose for the factions mainly because the template allows me to create unique faction feats in the manner that draconic, divine, exaulted, vile, and epic are all empty templates.

My reasoning: why should a character have to spend a feat in order to be considered a member of an organization? That's all the factions are: organizations. People who pay more than lip service to these groups have powers that manifest from their beliefs. Thus, like an exaulted character, they gain an empty template that allows them to choose feats for their devotion.

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I don't think they ever had to spend a feat *to* be considered a member of the faction.

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I have to agree that not every faction member need gain some kind of power from his belief in a faction's philosophy. There should be plenty of namers who have joined the faction just because the philosophy sounds "right".

Though you have a point with the devotion needed to gain actual powers from belief, and thus spending feats to add faction-related powers to a character, I dont't think this kind of devotion need be on the same level as the devotion required to gain "normal" feats.

Normal feats emphasize on certain aspects of a character, wether these particular aspects are gained through training or simply because of a certain affinity a character has to an ability (like a more powerful turning ability for a cleric). I like to see the faction-related powers more as a kind of side effect of believing in the faction's philosophy (and acting by it, of course). You could say that living by a philosophy requires some kind of activity from a character, but no more then the amount of activity required to gain belief points. However, belief points alone may be a little cheap for the powers offered by faction-related feats (the ones shown in chapter 4 of PS3E).

I think the main problem I'm having with faction powers as feats, is that feats, for most classes, only come by every so often. Though fighters and wizards gain bonus feats to improve their class-related abilities, other classes do not. Though, of course, other classes gain class abilites of their own, it doesn't make it easy for a character to advance in faction-powers without sacrificing other powers he would like. Of course, no character should have every faction-related feat but the most devoted members (those of, dare I say, "epic" proportions), like everybody's favorite ex-factol and councilwoman.

Though a conjunction of feat-like powers and belief-points would be more to my liking, I have to admit that from the options presented here, the feat-way is the most acceptible (looking at the faction-related powers found in chapter 4).

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This was my line of thinking when I was considering how to represent the factions without: a) giving away free powers, b) making any potential penalties outweigh the gains, and c) still providing a way to reward those who make sacrifices in the name of their beliefs. Only two options sprang to my mind: make them templates or represent factions by a combination of feat and prestige classes.

The problems with using feats and prestige classes that I came across were game balance and power gaming. While that's all well and good for many players, it is not representative of what Planescape is about. So, using what amounts to a cross between the rituals in Savage Species, templates, and 2e kits, I created the scalable templates with a way to increase/decrease the number of feats each level of belief within a faction a character may have in addition to having a XP (or Belief Point) cost. But the templates I created added the drawbacks from Planescape to 3e. Thus, even if you don't give players the bonuses that 2e factions offered, they still have the penalties that are generated from their beliefs.

This solved another problem for me: feats and prestige classes. With the feats now freed up from use to simulate the faction abilites by themselves, I was able to create them in a way that was similar to their general counterparts. Since the faction abilities did include some near-maigcal qualities in some instances, I looked at the metamagic feats and similar categories from Star Wars and Wheel of Time as a source of material to create specific feats for the factions.

While designing feats in this way, I wanted them to stand out as tweaks on the templated abilities as well as ways to improve the niche abilities of the 3 prestige classes I created for each faction. Thus, with 10 feats and 3 prestige classes per faction, I would have a large enough sampling of material in order to figure out what I might be missing over the course of a few gaming sessions.

Also, I wanted to design a way to preserve the 2e feel of the game with d20 mechanics for newcomers to Planescape. Especially those who were enamored with Torment.

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Mmm, Torment...

gear_8)

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"Emperor Xan" wrote:
Forgot to mention that templates can be completely empty.

Then it's not a template; it's a subtype.

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in the manner that draconic, divine, exalted, vile, and epic are all empty templates.

Draconic correponds to a creature type. The others are subtypes, I suppose, like "extraplanar," "shapechanger," "fire," "good," or "spirit" (from Oriental Adventures). Or they aren't anything. But calling them templates is too confusing, since it implies substantial changes to the character.

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why should a character have to spend a feat in order to be considered a member of an organization?

They shouldn't, and nobody said they should.

The Forgotten Realms setting has regional feats. To qualify for the feat, a character has to be from the appropriate region. However, the character can be from that region without spending a feat. Faction feats are the same way.

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How do you equate an empty template with a subtype? It's not as if belonging to a faction makes you a variation of a species.

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"Emperor Xan" wrote:
How do you equate an empty template with a subtype? It's not as if belonging to a faction makes you a variation of a species.

The "extraplanar" subtype doesn't make you the variation of a species either.

Meanwhile, every known template does.

But really, I don't think you need any special game term. Like I said above, faction feats act just like regional feats.

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Regional feats can also be taken by non-humans, but such "regional" feats for those races cannot be taken by humans.

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Xan, if your argument is that faction membership should be defined by, first, an "empty template" that simply signifies basic membership in a faction, and then, second, being qualified to take feats and levels in special prestige classes, then that's exactly what Planewalker's CS does.

I'm not sure what you meant by asking me if I could claim that everyone is in agreement with me, because I only said what the (official) Planewalker PSCS rules say regarding faction membership.

The only difference is that you say that you want there to be feats and prestige classes that require Jim to be a [Xaositect] to qualify, and the rest of us are happy with him just being a Xaositect.

"Emperor Xan" wrote:
Regional feats can also be taken by non-humans, but such "regional" feats for those races cannot be taken by humans.
What's your point?

As for your idea of making it be a set of scaling powers and drawbacks, that works for game mechanics but not really for flavor. Why should all faction members be bound to the same set of powers? Why can't a diehard Sinker have more faction-related power than a higher-level but less dedicated Sinker? Why can't some Dustmen benefit from the Dead Truce, and others go for Emotionless? Why should factioneers recieve arbitrary penalties that can never be really equal between all factions and represent a character who is less capable because of his faction membership (as 2e did)?

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"Rhys" wrote:
Xan, if your argument is that faction membership should be defined by, first, an "empty template" that simply signifies basic membership in a faction, and then, second, being qualified to take feats and levels in special prestige classes, then that's exactly what Planewalker's CS does.

First off, you've misconstrued my words. It would appear that you, like most people in the community, has failed to understand what I've been saying since day one. I don't like the system as it stands. You seem to have me confused with someone who must like the way PS3e has been written. I despise it.

"Rhys" wrote:
I'm not sure what you meant by asking me if I could claim that everyone is in agreement with me, because I only said what the (official) Planewalker PSCS rules say regarding faction membership.

The "official" system sucks and is quite limited. Where's the sacrifice aspects of the setting's core? Where's the rewards for following you beliefs? You're telling me that feats and prestige classes, which are used in every other setting in the exact manner are representative of the heart and soul of Planescape's uniqueness? I bring up mechanics that gave tangible rewards for role-playing in 2e, and people like you denounce them because you feel they're unnecessary.

3e is a power-gamer's dream. There's no true balance in 3e and the mechanics for the D&D game are combat-oriented in the extreme. The only d20 system put out by WotC that has any ethical elements in it is Star Wars. The whole of Planescape's themes are part and parcel the choice of belief. Which philosophy is the best, and why? Look at the PS3e mechanics and show me where this is still the heart of the setting. I've failed to find any and I've tried my damnedest to find a grain of the setting's soul in that travesty that's considered the "official" version of Planescape in 3e.

You've gutted the setting and expect everyone to go along with it as if there's nothing wrong with removing the role-playing elements for those new to the setting. All they'll focus on are the feats, spells, and prestige classes you design. You have no fail-safes to promote the original scope of Planescape and I seriously any here ever considered the ramifications of their actions by going the same way as Ebberon and Forgotten Reamls in terms of power gaming. And you expect me, someone who's whole focus is on the story aspects of gaming, to buy into it as a shiny new version of the setting with all its original vibrancy when you've offered no connection to the setting's heart and roots.

"Rhys" wrote:
The only difference is that you say that you want there to be feats and prestige classes that require Jim to be a [Xaositect] to qualify, and the rest of us are happy with him just being a Xaositect.

See, this is what I'm referring to in various places about none of you taking a serious look at what I've been expousing since day one. Where's the critical thinking skills that were apparently the heart of the setting's constitutent audience? I never said that a character must take any feats or prestige classes for the faction. The use of the system I've designed is similar in scope to regional feats where you choose wher you come from but that doesn't mean you have to select any feats. Not only that, but the regional system is a one-time pick from a small selection of feats the way WotC designed it.

You're killing the setting with such limitations by labeling the "official" system as being in the vein of regional feats. So, if I'm not 1st level and I just happen to be a clueless prime who's never heard of the factions, I'm pretty much screwed because I can never take regional feats except at 1st level. That's how the mechanic was designed.

"Rhys" wrote:
"Emperor Xan" wrote:
Regional feats can also be taken by non-humans, but such "regional" feats for those races cannot be taken by humans.

What's your point?

Here's my point: the system of regional feats was meant to give cultural/racial advantages to a character hailing from a particular way of life or to enhance racial tendencies. The system, therefore, is meant not to create cultures with a series of increasing powers or ways to imporve upon culturally-favored weapons or traditions. It was meant as a role-playing device to help players get a better feel of what a particular culture values and how those values that a character's been immersed in for his entire life has tangible effects.

"Rhys" wrote:
As for your idea of making it be a set of scaling powers and drawbacks, that works for game mechanics but not really for flavor. Why should all faction members be bound to the same set of powers? Why can't a diehard Sinker have more faction-related power than a higher-level but less dedicated Sinker? Why can't some Dustmen benefit from the Dead Truce, and others go for Emotionless? Why should factioneers recieve arbitrary penalties that can never be really equal between all factions and represent a character who is less capable because of his faction membership (as 2e did)?

This is the main reason why I've lost all respect for this community and most especially with the people making the decisions of how Planescape should be. Not one person that I've seen discussing Forgotten Realms has praised the cosmological changes that were made to the setting. Nor have I seen the same done for Dragonlance. Everyone's happy retaining the status quo of the multiverse, but let's change everything else about Planescape. That's hypocritical.

Your attack is based on a logical fallacy. I built a compormised system that you've clearly ignored and have not given any real scrutiny. If you did, you wouldn't have used an "either/or" attack when I've done no such thing as forcing people to play cookie-cutter faction members. Everything I've designed in terms of the faction templates is spelled out before you even get to the templates. I wrote something around 3 pages of how they work, why, and how to alter them to your liking. That's why they're called scalable templates. Apparently that's not good enough of an explanation on how they work and my reasonings for creating them.

The penalties for belief represent the negative effects of feeling so strongly. You don't have to have a template and claim membership to a faction. However, membership opens up faction feats for a reason. Just because I say I support the IBEW doesn't mean that I'm a member. I can pay lip service all day long and that still does not make me a member, nor does it even show that I'm an electrician.

Being a member of a trade union in the real world has benefits: wages can't drop below a certain level, strength in numbers, political power, assistance in finding work, and so on. But they also have drawbacks: labor strikes, lockouts, political enemies, union enemies, public strife, etc. Why you don't believe factions should have similar effects is beyond me. The drawbacks of the factions are either politically/philosophically motivated, or caused by the energies of the planes. After all, the planes and their mutability is what the fighting across the multiverse is all about.

None of you who things my ideas are flawed has shown me how they are unsound. Until then, I will continue to expouse them in every forum that I can. All of the debate techniques that have been used thus far are all bandwagoning ones. "Everybody likes it this way," or "that's what people want" arguments are ridiculous. How do you know what they want when few people have been shown any alternatives or been alowed to choose what they want? I've stopped working on my templates mostly because of college. Other than those who like to power game, I haven't come across anyone who hates my way of doing things. They may not want to use it, but they can see how it's a viable option. Rhys, you've proven to me, as well as a few others, that you can't see anything that doesn't promote the 3e powergaming attitude to be flawed.

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Minor request: Debate the values of any particular system one way or the other as you like, but please avoid personal attacks. They do little to actually convince the other party of the validness of your position. Keep it civil, please, on all sides.

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Xan, I haven't seen your faction work (is it up somewhere for us to peruse?), but from the way you're presenting it, it sounds fairly similar to the way PW does it. As I understand, your system works in the following manner:
1. Player chooses a faction for her character. This involves applying a 'template' that doesn't do anything except signify the character is a member of the faction.
2. Characters with an empty faction template are eligible to take faction-related feats and prestige classes.
Planewalker's system works in the following manner:
1. Player chooses a faction for her character.
2. Characters of a faction are eligible to take faction-related feats (with prestige classes coming later? I'm not clear on that, exactly.).

It also seems like you're trying to insist that the game mechanics promote roleplaying. I don't believe that should be the case. People who want to roleplay and are in the game for that will do so. People who don't really want to roleplay and just enjoy the combat/bashing aspect of the game will just play that way, and having rules that force them to roleplay to a degree will not really help the situation any - they'll roleplay only to the degree that they're forced to, and won't enjoy any of it. All that those of us who like to roleplay can do is avoid playing with those who don't.

__________________

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Actually, my system imparts penalties in relation to the belief of the faction. As you go up through the ranks (e.g. from Namer to Factotum), the drawback penalties increase, but so do the benefits.

I see the system favored by Planewalker.com as akin to the American welfare system: all the benefits, none of the penalities from the previous way of doing things.

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"Kaelyn" wrote:
"Emperor Xan" wrote:
How do you equate an empty template with a subtype? It's not as if belonging to a faction makes you a variation of a species.

The "extraplanar" subtype doesn't make you the variation of a species either.

Meanwhile, every known template does.

But really, I don't think you need any special game term. Like I said above, faction feats act just like regional feats.

See, this is the type of mentality I'm referring to. Just because no known templates have done it this way means that it can't be done or shouldn't be done. Maybe I should point out a few examples in the DMG that not only encourages such thinking contrary to what was written by the designers, but also the examples given showing how easy such changes are.

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"Emperor Xan" wrote:
Other than those who like to power game, I haven't come across anyone who hates my way of doing things. They may not want to use it, but they can see how it's a viable option.
I don't hate your ideas, either. In fact, nobody here is attacking your ideas. You posted a request for people to discuss their ideas for 3e representation of the factions, and that is what has occurred. There's no need for hypersensitivity here, because we're just giving feedback to the idea you've given. I haven't even seen your actual template system, because you haven't posted it anywhere that I've seen.

"Emperor Xan" wrote:
You're killing the setting with such limitations by labeling the "official" system as being in the vein of regional feats. So, if I'm not 1st level and I just happen to be a clueless prime who's never heard of the factions, I'm pretty much screwed because I can never take regional feats except at 1st level. That's how the mechanic was designed.
Faction feats are not regional feats. Kaelyn's analogy was: "The Forgotten Realms setting has regional feats. To qualify for the feat, a character has to be from the appropriate region. However, the character can be from that region without spending a feat. Faction feats are the same way." It in no way means that you have to be from the planes to be in a faction. Darkwood and Sarin are both Primes, and they were factols.

Here's what you said about restrictions for faction members.

"Emperor Xan" wrote:
Being a member of a trade union in the real world has benefits: wages can't drop below a certain level, strength in numbers, political power, assistance in finding work, and so on. But they also have drawbacks: labor strikes, lockouts, political enemies, union enemies, public strife, etc. Why you don't believe factions should have similar effects is beyond me.

However, those are all things that are associated with faction membership without being defined by feats or templates. A member of the Sodkillers can find a steady job in rough times, always has support when he needs it, and so on. At the same time, he has to do what his superiors say, is exposed to any negative public opinion regarding his faction, has to deal with opposed factions, and so on. Is that the kind of scaling drawback that you're including in your template? I wouldn't think so, but let me know if it is.

And not having specific restrictions assigned to factions is hardly moving away from original Planescape. The Planewalker's Handbook lists the following as faction restrictions on page 66-67:
Athar: Can't accept aid (especially healing) from priests of specific deities.
Believers of the Source: Can't be raised or resurrected; priests of specific deities suffer -1 to all saving throws.
Bleak Cabal: Has a 1 in 20 chance each day of being overcome by melancholia.
Doomguard: Must fail a saving throw vs. spell before magical healing will work on them.
Dustmen: Half normal chance of surviving resurrection.
Fated: Can't accept or perform charity.
Fraternity of Order: Can't knowingly break a law.
Free League: No factol, no representatives, no rights.
Harmonium: Disobedience requires atonement. Refusal is punishable by death.
Mercykillers: No immunity to the law; can't release a prisoner until he's been properly punished.
Revolutionary League: Can't hold office or own a business; must give 90% of all wealth to the faction or the oppressed.
Sign of One: Suffers -2 penalty to reaction and loyalty adjustments.
Society of Sensation: Can't refuse offers that lead to new experiences.
Transcendent Order: Once an action is stated, Cipher must commit to that action (he can't change his mind).
Xaositects: Can't participate in activities that require long-term organization or discipline.

What's there to keep? Most of that is supposed to be roleplaying, anyway. A Sensate can't refuse an offer that could lead to new experiences? How can that be a rule? Everyone, from Montgomery herself to Kevin the namer is supernaturally compelled to obey any offer that leads to new experiences? Shouldn't that just be roleplaying? I really find it difficult to debate this point until I know what you mean by "restrictions," because the ones that were just listed are, in my respectfully-given opinion, pointless. It seems to me that having things like faction politics and orders from high-ups subsumed into the basic responsibilities of any faction member is a better way to handle things, and that it's exactly what you want: more roleplaying. If you hate the 3e style so much because of its inability to promote roleplaying, then how is it a superior method to assign faction members a template that lays out exactly what they get for being a faction member and exactly what they have to give up? That doesn't make anyone roleplay any more than s/he would have before.

I suppose your comment about me ignoring what people want was directed at the idea that I had said "everyone likes feats." What I meant was that feats as a concept are a core aspect of the d20 system. So, it's a good idea to use because it doesn't require balancing and integrating an entirely new system that exists exclusively in one setting, like belief points would. I didn't mean that everyone who plays Planescape in 3e favors the use of Planewalker's faction feats, only that feats are part of the setting and can be put into effect easily, unlike a system that works on an entirely new mechanic, such as belief points.

Finally, Planewalker is not about rewriting the Planescape setting; it's about continuing the Planescape setting. The site isn't about restating the intricacies of faction membership at this point. That is already given in the Planescape campaign setting from 2e. What Planewalker did in Chapter 4 is provide updated rules to handle Planescape, particularly faction abilities. If what occurs is that " All they'll focus on are the feats, spells, and prestige classes you design" as you supposed, it's fine, because we all already know what the philosophy of the Fated is. Philosophy requires no update from 2e to 3e. Mechanics do. That means feats, spells, and prestige classes. Fortunately, Planewalker does much more. Our community produces fiction, new organizations, new roleplaying ideas, and even some 2e material. So watch the accusations.

"Emperor Xan" wrote:
The "official" system sucks and is quite limited. Where's the sacrifice aspects of the setting's core? Where's the rewards for following you beliefs? You're telling me that feats and prestige classes, which are used in every other setting in the exact manner are representative of the heart and soul of Planescape's uniqueness? I bring up mechanics that gave tangible rewards for role-playing in 2e, and people like you denounce them because you feel they're unnecessary.
Hostility aside, I really think you can see the logic in the feat system if you give it a try. The rewards for following your beliefs are in recieving access to special feats that you can only get as long as you are a believer in a faction philosophy. I do not see how feats give rewards for roleplaying any less than the static system did in 2e.

I don't particularly appreciate being accused of catering to powergamers or of being hypocritical, because I have been completely reasonable throughout this discussion.

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"Emperor Xan" wrote:
Just because no known templates have done it this way means that it can't be done or shouldn't be done.

The only thing I'm talking about is the names you're using. An "empty" template that doesn't have any effect other than add a label to the character sounds like a subtype to me, if it's anything. Of the two words, "subtype" fits what you're trying to say somewhat better. It's still not perfect, since I can't think of any examples of completely empty subtypes, but subtypes are, on the whole, emptier than kits are.

Of course you're right that there's no reason you can't use game terms in completely new ways if it's necessary, but I'd prefer avoiding that if there are alternatives that make the system fit better with things readers might be familiar with.

Quote:
It was meant as a role-playing device to help players get a better feel of what a particular culture values and how those values that a character's been immersed in for his entire life has tangible effects.

This sounds like a good role-playing device for factions, as well.

Quote:
So, if I'm not 1st level and I just happen to be a clueless prime who's never heard of the factions, I'm pretty much screwed because I can never take regional feats except at 1st level. That's how the mechanic was designed.

Well, yes, but I wasn't using the example of regional feats to suggest that faction feats should be taken at only 1st level. I was suggesting only that they provide a good example of a format that might be adopted, and a good precedent of a way that feats might be restricted to characters of a certain type. In this precedent, no explicit template, subtype, or other game term was necessary. Instead of calling Drizzt Do'Urden a humanoid (Elf, Menzoberranzan) in order to give him access to Underdark-specific feats, it is assumed. In the same way, you don't have to explicitly write that an evil character has the vile subtype or the vile template in order to give it access to a vile feat. This makes character sheets a little faster to fill out, I guess.

I'm saying that if WotC has already established a format that seems to work, there's no reason to campaign so hard to make the implicit subtype/template/kit explicit. I think it's redundant and only confuses people.

Feats already have a type category, which can be filled out as general, martial, eldritch, metamagic, vile, epic, regional, faction, or whatever else. Because faction feats work similarly to how regional feats work does not mean that they're the same in every respect.

They're similar to regional feats in that they're restricted to characters with a specific kind of background: ie, they've joined a faction and they fervently share its beliefs. Because joining a faction is different from being from a certain region, this need not happen at 1st level. But it's still a role-playing device to help characters get a feel for what the faction values - what it believes in - and to show how belief has tangible effects in the Planescape campaign, regardless of whether or not the character has had these beliefs for his or her entire life.

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Wow...where do I begin to dismantle this diatribe?

"Rhys" wrote:
"Emperor Xan" wrote:
Other than those who like to power game, I haven't come across anyone who hates my way of doing things. They may not want to use it, but they can see how it's a viable option.
I don't hate your ideas, either. In fact, nobody here is attacking your ideas. You posted a request for people to discuss their ideas for 3e representation of the factions, and that is what has occurred. There's no need for hypersensitivity here, because we're just giving feedback to the idea you've given. I haven't even seen your actual template system, because you haven't posted it anywhere that I've seen.

I've posted my template system at least 3 times on the PW-Members and the PS mailing lists. The only true feed back I've gotten is that I don't know crap about 3e through the offhanded comments and general snubbing of my work by touting one system over another and disregarding merits of my work. It's okay if I write creative materials, so long as there's no game mechanics attached to them, appearently.

Every time I've introduced my system, I've gotten nothing but flack because of the way it works. When I first introduced it, I was told that it was pointless because Prestige Classes were better ways to represent faction power, because that's what 3e was about. I have a very long memory... Search the archives of the mailing lists to figure out where I'm comming from.

"Rhys" wrote:
"Emperor Xan" wrote:
You're killing the setting with such limitations by labeling the "official" system as being in the vein of regional feats. So, if I'm not 1st level and I just happen to be a clueless prime who's never heard of the factions, I'm pretty much screwed because I can never take regional feats except at 1st level. That's how the mechanic was designed.
Faction feats are not regional feats. Kaelyn's analogy was: "The Forgotten Realms setting has regional feats. To qualify for the feat, a character has to be from the appropriate region. However, the character can be from that region without spending a feat. Faction feats are the same way." It in no way means that you have to be from the planes to be in a faction. Darkwood and Sarin are both Primes, and they were factols.

Should I quote the Player's Guide to Faerun?

"Regional feats represent particular strengths, talents, or characteristics of people who inhabit a region. These aren't bonus feats -- you can choose a regional feat only as one of your character's 1st level feat choices. you are not required to choose one if you don't want to. You can only select one regional feat, even if you would normally be entitled to multiple feat choices at 1st level." - page 8

Additionally, regions come with language & equipment choices. This means that, yes, you do have to spend a feat for that regional trait if you want your character to possess it.

"Emperor Xan" wrote:
Here's what you said about restrictions for faction members.
"Emperor Xan" wrote:
Being a member of a trade union in the real world has benefits: wages can't drop below a certain level, strength in numbers, political power, assistance in finding work, and so on. But they also have drawbacks: labor strikes, lockouts, political enemies, union enemies, public strife, etc. Why you don't believe factions should have similar effects is beyond me.
However, those are all things that are associated with faction membership without being defined by feats or templates. A member of the Sodkillers can find a steady job in rough times, always has support when he needs it, and so on. At the same time, he has to do what his superiors say, is exposed to any negative public opinion regarding his faction, has to deal with opposed factions, and so on. Is that the kind of scaling drawback that you're including in your template? I wouldn't think so, but let me know if it is.

Not only did you fail to understand my templates, you applied a faulty analogy to define the entirity of it. Drawbacks aren't merely political afflictions. They're based on the attitude that comes with the belief. Why are Takers hated so much? Because they're self-confidence flows over into arrogance, not to mention their supreme belief that they can have whatever they want and nobody will deny them their destinies.

"Rhys" wrote:
And not having specific restrictions assigned to factions is hardly moving away from original Planescape. The Planewalker's Handbook lists the following as faction restrictions on page 66-67: Athar: Can't accept aid (especially healing) from priests of specific deities. Believers of the Source: Can't be raised or resurrected; priests of specific deities suffer -1 to all saving throws. Bleak Cabal: Has a 1 in 20 chance each day of being overcome by melancholia. Doomguard: Must fail a saving throw vs. spell before magical healing will work on them. Dustmen: Half normal chance of surviving resurrection. Fated: Can't accept or perform charity. Fraternity of Order: Can't knowingly break a law. Free League: No factol, no representatives, no rights. Harmonium: Disobedience requires atonement. Refusal is punishable by death. Mercykillers: No immunity to the law; can't release a prisoner until he's been properly punished. Revolutionary League: Can't hold office or own a business; must give 90% of all wealth to the faction or the oppressed. Sign of One: Suffers -2 penalty to reaction and loyalty adjustments. Society of Sensation: Can't refuse offers that lead to new experiences. Transcendent Order: Once an action is stated, Cipher must commit to that action (he can't change his mind). Xaositects: Can't participate in activities that require long-term organization or discipline.

Yeah, that's real authoritative compared to the Factol's Manifesto. Anarchists are more likely to get aid from another faction than their own. That's a severe drawback if you're exposed. There's no cohesion in the faction, meaning that if you're hip-deep in the crap you created, it's likely that nobody's going to pull out out. As for not owning businesses, there are two listed in Factol's Manifesto on p. 116-7: The Square Bar and The Secret Door. I suggest you use a more in-depth source for faction information.

"Rhys" wrote:
What's there to keep? Most of that is supposed to be roleplaying, anyway. A Sensate can't refuse an offer that could lead to new experiences? How can that be a rule? Everyone, from Montgomery herself to Kevin the namer is supernaturally compelled to obey any offer that leads to new experiences? Shouldn't that just be roleplaying? I really find it difficult to debate this point until I know what you mean by "restrictions," because the ones that were just listed are, in my respectfully-given opinion, pointless. It seems to me that having things like faction politics and orders from high-ups subsumed into the basic responsibilities of any faction member is a better way to handle things, and that it's exactly what you want: more roleplaying. If you hate the 3e style so much because of its inability to promote roleplaying, then how is it a superior method to assign faction members a template that lays out exactly what they get for being a faction member and exactly what they have to give up? That doesn't make anyone roleplay any more than s/he would have before.

See, what you do is fine for your own group, but what are you doing to promote the feel of the original setting for newcomers? By removing the penalties and the impact that belief has, you cheapen Planescape. Similar to how you cheapen the English language using Politically Corrupt non-words like "s/he" as they just annoy people, especially an English major. Your comments on how it's supposed to be role-playing is correct, but how can you stress that if all you do is offer feats and Prestige Classes and a brief description as to what they believe without the ramifications of those beliefs? You haven't answered that question. You've just waxed poetic as to how Planescape is about role-playing and de-emphasizes combat. I'm aware of what Planescape is, as well as the mechanics of d20. But if you ignore Star Wars, then I can see your argument from such a narrow perspective. But you can't ignore it because it is d20, was written by WotC, and has not only had impact on 3.5 revisions, but also was one of the sources for Unearthed Arcana.

"Rhys" wrote:
I suppose your comment about me ignoring what people want was directed at the idea that I had said "everyone likes feats." What I meant was that feats as a concept are a core aspect of the d20 system. So, it's a good idea to use because it doesn't require balancing and integrating an entirely new system that exists exclusively in one setting, like belief points would. I didn't mean that everyone who plays Planescape in 3e favors the use of Planewalker's faction feats, only that feats are part of the setting and can be put into effect easily, unlike a system that works on an entirely new mechanic, such as belief points.

Actually, feats are not liked by everyone, especially those who can't stand d20. Being that they are a core aspect of d20, they lose their appeal as a way to make a concept like "philosophy matters" a viable way to approach game mechanics because, well, everyone has access to feats so long as they gain character levels. Even commoners have access to feats. The only way to gain metamagic feats is to be able to cast spells, which means you have to take levels in a spellcasting class. This is a hell of a sacrifice just to have access to some feats. But even here, taking a level in the class allows the character to access the same types of feats all spellcasters have available.

Divine feats work in the same way. You just need to have access to divine magic in order to take the feats, provided you meet the feat requirements attached to said feats. The same can be said about Ancestor feats in OA. That book even goes so far as to force you to choose a clan (and thus gain a "class" skill and favored class for that clan) or go clanless (and gain no such benefits). Ghostwalk introduces Ghost, Corrupter, Haunt, Poltergeist, and the like as feat tags. These require levels as a ghost of one sort or another. The XPH has Psionic & Metapsionic as tags. Urban Arcana requires you to choose a feat called Arcane Skills in order to access skills classified under the same name.

My templates do the same, but allow all species to participate without buying class levels, feat selections to gain access, or limiting their role in the setting for not chosing to belong. That's the rub your system leaves with me. Benefits are plentiful, but penalties in mechanics are nonexistant.

"Rhys" wrote:
Finally, Planewalker is not about rewriting the Planescape setting; it's about continuing the Planescape setting. The site isn't about restating the intricacies of faction membership at this point. That is already given in the Planescape campaign setting from 2e. What Planewalker did in Chapter 4 is provide updated rules to handle Planescape, particularly faction abilities. If what occurs is that " All they'll focus on are the feats, spells, and prestige classes you design" as you supposed, it's fine, because we all already know what the philosophy of the Fated is. Philosophy requires no update from 2e to 3e. Mechanics do. That means feats, spells, and prestige classes. Fortunately, Planewalker does much more. Our community produces fiction, new organizations, new roleplaying ideas, and even some 2e material. So watch the accusations.

Yes, how I forgot that I'm supposed to ignore the factions that no longer exist. I'm also supposed to I guess forget that some people refuse to change, because that's what free will allows for. I'm also supposed to ignore the mechanic that if you no longer qualify for a feat, you can't use it and you can't trade it. That's right, I forgot that I'm not supposed to have any disintergrated factions running about with their prestige classes and feats from the nonexistant faction. They're magically given new feats and the like, or all of those people with the exception of a select few, have been swallowed up by the Great Wheel because the new rules system made them obsolete.

And how elitist of us to assume that people who come here will own all the books. Or, they'll want to play in the post-FW era. That's why we're ignoring those campaigns, right? Because they don't fit in with the agenda of this site and the people making the decisions for what gets done and for whom. Forget those who might want to play Planescape if they didn't buy the books when it was out, it's not our job to attract new blood into the setting or the hobby. What was I thinking when I set out to design a compromised system that could be tailored for everyone's enjoyment, old hands and new alike? After all, we all know what the beliefs of the factions are, right? We all play the same campaign, don't we?

In all the rush to create a transition for old hands to the new system, we're supposed to leave everyone else behind. We shouldn't have a base to work from that extends before the Faction War, because that's a waste of time and nobody's going to want to see a return of the original 15, are they? After all, we've all played through FW, haven't we? I'm sorry, some of us haven't had the opportunity to get a group together to play the setting we enjoy so much. I forgot that they don't matter either, even if they've been in the community since '98. Those people without gaming groups or websites and the resources to build a community should be marginalized because they're not important to the continuance of the setting or for finding new blood.

I know what this community produces, I am a part of it. Take you own advice and watch the accuations. Also, watch your assumptions that we're only here to cater to the dedicated fans from 2e. Last time I checked, this hobby is dying because of such assumptions that we're only here for our experienced fellows.

"Rhys" wrote:
"Emperor Xan" wrote:
The "official" system sucks and is quite limited. Where's the sacrifice aspects of the setting's core? Where's the rewards for following you beliefs? You're telling me that feats and prestige classes, which are used in every other setting in the exact manner are representative of the heart and soul of Planescape's uniqueness? I bring up mechanics that gave tangible rewards for role-playing in 2e, and people like you denounce them because you feel they're unnecessary.
Hostility aside, I really think you can see the logic in the feat system if you give it a try. The rewards for following your beliefs are in recieving access to special feats that you can only get as long as you are a believer in a faction philosophy. I do not see how feats give rewards for roleplaying any less than the static system did in 2e.

I never said feats are illogical. I said that they're limited. You need to re-examine my words. You ask me to give something a try when it doesn't capture the feel of the original setting. That's very condescending of you.

"Rhys" wrote:
I don't particularly appreciate being accused of catering to powergamers or of being hypocritical, because I have been completely reasonable throughout this discussion.

Your words speak for themselves in this regard. What you call reasonable is very condescending and arrogant in its assumption that this is what the whole community wants and that we shouldn't worry about new players who would wonder what the Godsmen and Mercykillers were about. I say arrogant and condescending because you're making the choice for them by ignoring the potential gold mine of material the original setting left us but has yet to be used by anyone for the new blood. Where's the story continuity? Where's the broken remnants of factions long thought dead? Even 2e showed us the potential there with groups such as the Incantifiers. I've examined the PS3e rules with an objective and critical eye. It fails to uphold Planescape's potential for old and new gamers alike by the designer's disregard for the system.

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I don't have time for a more in-depth response right now, so I'll leave it at this. Your template system is nowhere to be found in the files section of pw_members. So there is no reasonable way to continue discussing it. Except for vague abstract terms about the merits of your system of benefits and drawbacks that scale with level (yes? level?), I still don't know how this works. How about an example of your system so that we can discuss it?

If we have, in our rules, the information regarding the Fraternity of Order explain their high regard for laws, isn't it better to have players simply role-play that aspect of their characters, rather than have a vague rule about being "unable to break any law," when, after all, they are still fully capable of doing so if they wanted to. Isn't role-playing the cause behind your entire criticism of 3e? What drawbacks, precisely, do you include in your system? I still have yet to see a specific example.

But really, if you "despise the d20 system" so much and are so rabid about keeping the original 15 factions and not playing with post-Faction War rules, then why are you converting anything at all? Planescape has a multitude of original material in 2e format.

And please make some attempt to keep this conversation reasonable. I am, perceptions nonwithstanding, not being arrogant or condescending. Resorting to arguments based on your grammatical opposition to the term "s/he" degrades the integrity of this entire discussion. But, for clarity, I did not use the term to be politically correct (or even "politically corrupt," if you insist), but rather to be grammatically correct and to avoid misemploying "they" as a third-person singular pronoun, as I'm sure an English major like you imply would appreciate. It can be found in the dictionary.

Your idea of using templates to mark faction members and then allowing those with that template to access specific feats is exactly what the PSCS system does. We just don't use a template to mark faction members, but simply recognize them as such.

If you're looking for arrogance, condescension, or even diatribe, you're searching on the wrong side of this discussion.

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"Rhys" wrote:
I don't have time for a more in-depth response right now, so I'll leave it at this. Your template system is nowhere to be found in the files section of pw_members. So there is no reasonable way to continue discussing it. Except for vague abstract terms about the merits of your system of benefits and drawbacks that scale with level (yes? level?), I still don't know how this works. How about an example of your system so that we can discuss it?

No level-dependent aspects, and I'll post it after I respond so you can see.

"Rhys" wrote:
If we have, in our rules, the information regarding the Fraternity of Order explain their high regard for laws, isn't it better to have players simply role-play that aspect of their characters, rather than have a vague rule about being "unable to break any law," when, after all, they are still fully capable of doing so if they wanted to. Isn't role-playing the cause behind your entire criticism of 3e? What drawbacks, precisely, do you include in your system? I still have yet to see a specific example.

The material's in e-mails that I've posted, not files uploaded. This work spans 2-3 years.

"Rhys" wrote:
But really, if you "despise the d20 system" so much and are so rabid about keeping the original 15 factions and not playing with post-Faction War rules, then why are you converting anything at all? Planescape has a multitude of original material in 2e format.

I never said I despised d20. I said I despised PS3e as it stands. As for the original 15, I intend to have them survive in some form after I run a group through FW. Why ignore those whould would still support a broken faction? Wouldn't they still have their beliefs and all the abilities that go with them? I say yes.

"Rhys" wrote:
And please make some attempt to keep this conversation reasonable. I am, perceptions nonwithstanding, not being arrogant or condescending. Resorting to arguments based on your grammatical opposition to the term "s/he" degrades the integrity of this entire discussion. But, for clarity, I did not use the term to be politically correct (or even "politically corrupt," if you insist), but rather to be grammatically correct and to avoid misemploying "they" as a third-person singular pronoun, as I'm sure an English major like you imply would appreciate. It can be found in the dictionary.

Like it or not, the correct term is "he," "him," or "man." It comes from the German "mann," which simply means "one" in English. I don't make ther rules for the language, I just enforce them as a writer.

"Rhys" wrote:
Your idea of using templates to mark faction members and then allowing those with that template to access specific feats is exactly what the PSCS system does. We just don't use a template to mark faction members, but simply recognize them as such.

If you're looking for arrogance, condescension, or even diatribe, you're searching on the wrong side of this discussion.

My system is nothing like the "official" version. My system retains as much of the feel of PS as possible.

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"Emperor Xan" wrote:
I never said I despised d20. I said I despised PS3e as it stands.
Honestly, Xan, everyone in this project has given your ideas plenty of attention in the past. Before the faction chapter came out, I remember a lot of discussion of templates versus feats and in the end the majority (that is, everyone besides you) decided that feats were the way to go. Fortunately, we're not the planescape police here and you can play with templates in your game all you like. You can even post it on the site for others to use. As for the ps3e material that's being released, the call has been made and all of your complaining is only creating destructive noise. If you want to help with the project, work with the other designers instead of against us. If you don't like the way the project is functioning, there are probably more useful things you can do.

"Emperor Xan" wrote:
Like it or not, the correct term is "he," "him," or "man." It comes from the German "mann," which simply means "one" in English. I don't make ther rules for the language, I just enforce them as a writer.
Firstly, this is not a grammatical point, but an etomological point. Where the word "man" comes from has little to do with how it's used in our language, just as the appropriate pronoun for "animal" is "it" not "she" even though it comes from a feminine Latin word. Secondly, "man" does not mean "one" especially in modern culture. It means an adult male and is very gendered despite what pedantic and taciturn English majors think. If you'er looking for a neutral pronoun, use "one" instead of "man", "only", "unite", or any other words you can think of that "comes from" a word in another language which translates to what your struggling to convey.

"Emperor Xan" wrote:
My system is nothing like the "official" version. My system retains as much of the feel of PS as possible.
As your so fond of pointing out, the strength and "feel" or Planescape is the philosophy behind it, the atomsphere of the setting. Take a look through the second edition sourcebooks: they're mostly flavor text with a few rules thrown in, except the Planewalker's Handbook and other foundation books. Rules were never used to create the concept of the Planescape Setting, only to ground it. The official material is nothing more than what the ps3e project community has decided to be the best representation of planescape mechanics. If you think that a new set of mechanics for the setting is going to make or break the "feel of PS," you're not playing the setting to its fullest.

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Hey!

I am an english major and I DO think that man is very gendered. The problem is that the word "it" signifies a lack of gender. English has no truely gender neutral pronouns. It could be worse. Most words in French are not gender neutral. Oh and even though I do it myself don't use "their" "they" or "them" for a single gender neutral. I dunno but the ghosts of all the english majors before me are screaming in my head and it really pisses them off.

The real reason why he and man are used more often than not for gender neutral is that they are shorter than her and woman. That's a 1-2 character savings, yes small in the singular, but through an entire book that can add up.

Do what you want, just be understandable and consistant. If the writing sounds good, gets the point across, and is generally free of spelling errors then don't sweat it unless your bound to a particular editing style. If it sounds good generally it is good.

PS:: My two cents on the factions and rules. Rules should be light. The mechanics are just a framework to help the story allong and arbitrate quickly between disputes and questions that arise in game. In the end all that matters is the players' and gm's preferances. Besides some factions don't fit the rules. After all, as soon as you start saying something that fits all xaositecs at least one of them will change just to make it wrong. If a player is doing an excellent job or roleplaying their faction AND helping the story and enjoyment of the game along then they should be rewarded. If they don't go with their faction or are going with it in a way that is just way too disruptive to the party then it is up to the GM to penalize them.

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"Mephit James" wrote:
Honestly, Xan, everyone in this project has given your ideas plenty of attention in the past. Before the faction chapter came out, I remember a lot of discussion of templates versus feats and in the end the majority (that is, everyone besides you) decided that feats were the way to go. Fortunately, we're not the planescape police here and you can play with templates in your game all you like. You can even post it on the site for others to use. As for the ps3e material that's being released, the call has been made and all of your complaining is only creating destructive noise. If you want to help with the project, work with the other designers instead of against us. If you don't like the way the project is functioning, there are probably more useful things you can do.

Discussions are all well and good, but they do not make for game balance or for statistical representations. As I'm designing a book for a cosmology construction, I have don't see why I should work with someone if there's a problem in the mechanics of what's there. Where's the drawbacks to faction membership? How do you represent statistically what everything means?

See, it comes down to this: rules are meant to be ignored. However, without having a system in place for new players, you leave them wondering what it's all about. As this is a redesign of the mechanics from 2e to 3e, you have to address this issue. If it weren't the case that it's something that is necessary for a new influx of blood into the industry, why would WotC rehash material from Forgotten Realms in 3e. After all, isn't their target audiance fans of the setting? Same can be said about Ravenloft and Dragonlance.

Rhys asked why we need to have descriptions of the faction's beliefs. Simple, new players don't know what we know. In order to give them some footing as to what's going on so they can make sense, and ultimately use, of this site, they must have some way to follow what's going on and what the changes are all about. Also, there are fans of PS and 3e who do want to play pre-FW campaigns. the PSCS does not cater to this group in any way. This decision can only serve to alienate part of the community in terms of the usefulness of this site.

The 15 factions were the base of the campaign in terms of mechanics. The reason PS could be so rules-light is because it didn't add anything new to the game other than the faction/sect system. The drawbacks were not only an attempt to balance the kits in 2e, but to also show the impact of beliefs in game terms so that, even if you ignored the rules, you'd still have an understanding of how the designers wanted them to work.

"Mephit James" wrote:
Firstly, this is not a grammatical point, but an etomological point. Where the word "man" comes from has little to do with how it's used in our language, just as the appropriate pronoun for "animal" is "it" not "she" even though it comes from a feminine Latin word. Secondly, "man" does not mean "one" especially in modern culture. It means an adult male and is very gendered despite what pedantic and taciturn English majors think. If you'er looking for a neutral pronoun, use "one" instead of "man", "only", "unite", or any other words you can think of that "comes from" a word in another language which translates to what your struggling to convey.

English is a Germanic language, so it is a grammatical point as well as being etymological in nature. You may not like the fact that I'm correcting this, because you consider it to be pedantic and taciturn, but this is what editing is all about. If you're going to use a gender word, employ it throughout a piece, don't make up politically corrupt words.

"Mephit James" wrote:
As your so fond of pointing out, the strength and "feel" or Planescape is the philosophy behind it, the atomsphere of the setting. Take a look through the second edition sourcebooks: they're mostly flavor text with a few rules thrown in, except the Planewalker's Handbook and other foundation books. Rules were never used to create the concept of the Planescape Setting, only to ground it. The official material is nothing more than what the ps3e project community has decided to be the best representation of planescape mechanics. If you think that a new set of mechanics for the setting is going to make or break the "feel of PS," you're not playing the setting to its fullest.

See, that's what I'm referring to. Rules are used to ground the setting. You don't have to use anything you don't like, but if you don't maintain the feel of the setting despite system changes, then you are breaking from the feel of the setting. The "official" version rewards faction membership, but I haven't seen anything that shows the downsides of it. I understand that many want it to be a role-playing device. That's fine, but you still need to have the rules there for newcomers. The "official" version is flawed in that regard because not only does it ignore the past, it blatantly disregards the problems of factions in a systematic view. Role-playing is supposed to be the focus, I agree; as a game designer, I know better.

If noble intentions were all that mattered, the world would be a fantastic place to live. The means do matter, not just the end. If there's no vehicle of conveyance, how do you expect to gain a following?

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Ah, belief. Often I have been with concerned how to better get the idea across, whether we had done enough to emphasis it, and otherwise how to turn the average D&Der to a real role-playing Planescaper! I'm glad to see some discussion on it, as I've had difficult provoking much debate on ways to improve it in the past.

But to address some of the points raised here. It would seem that you are bothered by the lack of penalties associated with the factions, and believe that not having penalties takes away an important element of role playing. Penalties were abandoned for several reasons. First and foremost, they are nigh impossible to balance (and that is what 3E is all about). They certainly were not balanced in 2E, and it was decided that we would not be able to do it in a satisfactory manner. I've never seen group penalties work correctly, even in Vampire the Masquerade, which comes closest to getting it right IMO.

Secondly, the idea of gaining mechanical benefits for free and having them negated by mechanical penalties is anathem to 3E, as is certainly gaining mechanical penalties for the mere privelege of being in a faction.

Thirdly, it didn't work with the system of feats and PrCs that we had decided on. Characters are already sacrificing a feat slot or class level, if we were to add additional penalties the feats would have to be even more powerful than they are. This was, of course, one of the primary reasons for using templates instead, but then faction members would be clearly more powerful than those not in a faction. Which, in our opinion, would only promote power gaming anyways.

Regarldess, I'm interested in other ways to encourage role-playing and emphasis, and will be working towards that in the next releases of Chapter 2 and Chapter 3. I've been voted down every time proposing some sort of mechanical system for belief, so that will only grace the official products as a variant system (which I still hope will convey the intentions of the setting).

__________________

-Gabriel Sorrel, www.planewalker.com

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"Emperor Xan" wrote:
See, that's what I'm referring to. Rules are used to ground the setting. You don't have to use anything you don't like, but if you don't maintain the feel of the setting despite system changes, then you are breaking from the feel of the setting. The "official" version rewards faction membership, but I haven't seen anything that shows the downsides of it. I understand that many want it to be a role-playing device. That's fine, but you still need to have the rules there for newcomers. The "official" version is flawed in that regard because not only does it ignore the past, it blatantly disregards the problems of factions in a systematic view. Role-playing is supposed to be the focus, I agree; as a game designer, I know better.

If noble intentions were all that mattered, the world would be a fantastic place to live. The means do matter, not just the end. If there's no vehicle of conveyance, how do you expect to gain a following?

The thing which keeps the rules in check is rule 0: The GM is the rules. If a player is not roleplaying the joining and following of his faction (Something that is CLEARLY stated in the official ps3e rules) then the gm should revoke the use of those feats with no changeouts. Just like a paladin has to follow a code of honor. There are no honor points for paladins, why should there be for factions?

Furthermore the benefits that faction feats give in most cases are about the same as normal feats. Also, there are many cases when a feat is valid even if a character is not a member of the faction. Such cases should be decided by the GM, after all that's what they are there for. Yes it involves judgement calls, and hard decitions, but that is how the game is played.

If you are truely worried about Newbies then why not use your expiriances as a player and gm (I assume you have actually played before and are not a newbie yourself) and write a guide to help new people?

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Have you ever designed a game for someone else to play?

Answer that question fist, and I'll answer yours in great detail.

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"Emperor Xan" wrote:
Have you ever designed a game for someone else to play?

Answer that question fist, and I'll answer yours in great detail.

Yes. I have designed, played and run several games, mostly rpgs. However, I would point out that there are probably thousands of twelve year olds who have designed their own versions of rpgs. The fact that I've made my own is meaningless. My experience in playing them, and my experience sitting at a table with other players with my personal experience and literary knowledge is what I draw upon for roleplaying.

How many games have you been in? Actually sitting down with other people, at a table or over email or a mud, phone, anything that involves you working with other people and sharing a world. The way that you talk I assume you should have a good deal of experience. I have been playing rpgs in a single group for a good five or six years now as well as playing many board games, tabletop games and online multiplayer games.

For someone to honestly be able to even hope to be a decent author they must first be a great reader. For someone to hope to be a 'game designer' they must be a great roleplayer and a decent author.

A game designer who does not actually spend time playing games and watching others play games is just as good as an author who is illiterate.

Xan. You can get caught up in the mechanics all you want and debate ideas like balance and playability, but unless you have that actual experience you really don't have the foundation to say much of anything. Now if you don't the board roleplaying sections here are a great way to build up experience and do some roleplaying. And I'm sure that many people here would be glad to point you to great places online to roleplay. And I'll bet you probably could find a group to play where you are if you look real hard. It isn't always easy or feasible to get others around a table, as so many of us unfortunately know all too well, but when you can it is more than worth it.

Honestly. You’re obviously a creative person and you could be an asset to this community and to roleplaying in general. But you are not at this time. Most everything you have posted is excellent work, indeed, but you have to remember that others have posted excellent work as well. Working with others and social skills are fundamental in rpgs and I'm sorry to say but from my experience with you on this board they are something which you quite frankly lack. I don't claim to be the greatest socialite in the world; in fact I know that I am far from it.

Remember. One major reason we appreciate people giving ideas is the fact that we can choose to not use them. It doesn't mean that people are ignoring you; it just means that a decision has been made for those specific ideas. It also doesn't mean that we didn't appreciate those ideas nor that we will refuse to use your ideas in the future. But if you insist on insulting people by deriding ps3e and deconstructively criticize things long after such criticism was due then people will return to you with like kind. As an author the FIRST thing that I want the most after I've finished writing something is to have someone else read it and tell me not what’s right, I know that, but what's wrong with it. Yet if I hear them and still prefer things my own way or a different way entirely I will go with the way I prefer.

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I'm going to post something I wrote for a contract I competed for to illustrate my point. This is a piece that requires some final editing to clean up a few errors. What I ask from anyone who reads the sample chapter and Outline is whether or not I got the contract.

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Foreword
Table of Contents
Introduction
Chapter 1: Strongholds
What is a Stronghold?
What Constitutes a Stronghold?
Types of Strongholds
Developing a Stronghold’s personality
Developing a Stronghold’s Purpose
Developing a Perception of a Stronghold
Advantages and Disadvantages
Strategy & Tactics of Strongholds
Construction
Infrastructure & Upkeep

Chapter 2: Fortified Manor Houses
Brief overview of the use of the fortified manor house in an essay format
Developing a fortified manor house’s personality
Developing a fortified manor house’s purpose
Developing a perception of a fortified manor house
Advantages and Disadvantages of the fortified manor house
Strategy & tactics of a fortified manor house
Construction (includes sample manor house)
Infrastructure & Upkeep

Chapter 3: Moat Houses
Brief overview of the use of the moat house in an essay format
Developing a moat house’s personality
Developing a moat house’s Purpose
Developing a perception of a moat house
Advantages and disadvantages
Strategy & tactics of a moat house
Construction (includes sample moat house)
Infrastructure & Upkeep

Chapter 4: Towers
Brief overview of the use of the tower in an essay format
Developing a tower’s personality
Developing a tower’s purpose
Developing a perception of a tower
Advantages and disadvantages
Strategy & Tactics of a tower
Construction (includes two sample towers: watchtower and wizard’s tower)
Infrastructure & Upkeep

Chapter 5: Keeps
Brief overview of the use of the keep in an essay format
Developing a keep’s personality
Developing a keep’s purpose
Developing a perception of a keep
Advantages and disadvantages
Strategy & tactics of a keep
Construction (includes sample keep)
Infrastructure & Upkeep

Chapter 6: Mott-and-Bailey Fortress
Brief overview of the use of the mott-and-bailey fortress in an essay format
Developing a mott-and-bailey fortress’ personality
Developing a mott-and-bailey fortress’ purpose
Developing a perception of a mott-and-bailey fortress
Advantages and disadvantages
Strategy & tactics of a mott-and-bailey fortress
Construction (includes sample mott-and-bailey fortress and stand-alone wooden palisade enclosure)
Infrastructure & Upkeep

Chapter 7: Vauban Fortifications
Brief overview of the use of the Vauban fortification in an essay format
Developing a Vauban fortification’s personality
Developing a Vauban fortification’s Purpose
Developing a perception of a Vauban fortification
Advantages and disadvantages
Strategy & tactics of a Vauban fortification
Construction (includes sample Vauban fortification)
Infrastructure & Upkeep

Chapter 8: Single-Walled Castles
Brief overview of the use of the single-walled castle in an essay format
Developing a single-walled castle’s personality
Developing a single-walled castle’s purpose
Developing a perception of a single-walled castle
Advantages and disadvantages
Strategy & tactics of a single-walled castle
Construction (includes example single-walled castle)
Infrastructure & Upkeep

Chapter 9: Double-Walled Castles
Brief overview of the use of the double-walled castle in an essay format
Developing a double-walled castle’s personality
Developing a double-walled castle’s purpose
Developing a perception of a double-walled castle
Advantages and disadvantages
Strategy & tactics of a double-walled castle
Construction (includes sample double-walled castle)
Infrastructure & Upkeep

Chapter 10: Triple-Walled Castles
Brief overview of the use of the triple-walled castle in an essay format
Developing a triple-walled castle’s personality
Developing a triple-walled castle’s purpose
Developing a perception of a triple-walled castle
Advantages and disadvantages
Strategy & tactics of a triple-walled castle
Construction (includes sample triple-walled castle)
Infrastructure & Upkeep

The format of the chapters is nearly identical to help the reader understand the strongholds and quickly choose which elements from a chapter he needs. Additionally, the format allows the larger structures to focus on elements they would contain. Common features found in smaller strongholds are not duplicated in successive chapters, allowing them to be mentioned, but leaving the space for the unique components. The reader can get details of the shared components from the chapters that precede the one that holds their interest. However, in the section on the construction of the sample stronghold, the components will be included for pricing.

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Chapter 1: Strongholds

Every stronghold, regardless of shape and size, is an enduring symbol of power and wealth. Simply stating that a stronghold is powerful or wealthy, however, does not invest in it strength of purpose.

The symbolic might of a stronghold is developed over time. A new fortress on the edge of civilization is little more than a collection of stone buildings behind a wall until it’s proven itself useful when an invasion assaults its walls. People aren’t filled with dread and awe by something that’s never been tested. Citizens of a benevolent empire aren’t confident about a palisade out along the frontier’s edge unless they know it keeps the barbaric hordes at bay.

So, how does a stronghold gain a reputation? A stronghold first is recognized as a landmark. Its proximity to civilization will add to or detract from its fame. Whereas a stronghold in the middle of nowhere can only gain a reputation through a considerable historical event, a stronghold near a settlement is readily recognized despite a lack of significant events occurring there. In addition, the disposition and culture of the stronghold’s main residents can help form a reputation that precedes them.

The combined effect of these aspects is powerful, and can thus be a bit overwhelming to many a game master whose only concern is providing a captivating setting for his players. It is understandable that many of the concepts described in the preceding paragraphs may seem stuffed with information. However, by the time you finish reading this chapter, you will have a clear concept of how to kindle your player’s imaginations enough to create exactly the setting you desire.

The above are actually just basic considerations for creating a structure that will serve as more than just a passing landmark in an otherwise unmemorable stretch of ground. Unless you want your stronghold to be nondescript, you’ll want to know more about how the fortress works, from construction and upkeep to staffing needs and survivability in an all-out siege. It’s the small details that reveal most of the personality of your stronghold. The more you add, the more alive and important it will feel to the players.

The generalizations in this chapter are the groundwork, so to speak, for the specifics upon which each stronghold is based. With the basics firmly in mind, you will be able to answer the questions necessary to make any fortification fit into your campaign without trouble.

What is a Stronghold?

You may believe this question to be rhetorical. In truth, anything can be considered a stronghold in a fantasy setting. Unfortunately, taking such a broad view would only confuse the subject even more. A stronghold for the purpose of this book is any building or series of buildings consisting of mundane materials engineered for protection from an attack. The reason for this distinction is due to the fact that while magic may be plentiful in a setting, most stronghold builders can’t afford to enchant a structure down to the last brick.

Because defense is an edge in a world where fantastic creatures roam, a sturdy wall is just as valuable as a magical shield. A good tactician with a handful of soldiers and a sturdy defensive barrier can repel an invading force with greater numbers. It is for this reason that strongholds are defined in terms of mundane materials rather than a series of enchantments. Though magic is a welcomed relief on both sides of the battlefield, engineers plan strongholds with the assumption that magic may not be available to use in the event of an attack.

What Constitutes a Stronghold?

As mentioned above, many buildings can comprise a stronghold. However, all strongholds share specific qualities. The chapters that follow break the structures down into the general categories they appear in among fantasy gaming settings. While this chapter will help you determine what it is you want your stronghold to accomplish, the remainder of the book will help you choose the right stronghold for the job. Used in tandem, this chapter and at least one other should stimulate your imagination to create the perfect stronghold for your game.

While there is nothing wrong with the example structures as presented in their respective chapters, they are a far cry from being the ideal for any given situation. So-called “cookie cutter” strongholds only work if you have an identifying reason for the consistent use of a layout. Such an identifying reason would be a proven design that optimizes the structure’s purpose within the terrain where it’s located. An example would be a series of cavalry posts along a border that runs through a plain. Soldiers from one stronghold would be able to defend an identical one with little trouble.

Types of Strongholds

This book describes nine broad categories of strongholds. Each represents a level of security, the number of people one would be designed to protect, and a certain strength of defense. Any given stronghold will have a relative value proportionate in the aforementioned areas as you progress from least to greatest security. What follows below are brief descriptions of the categories and their use.

The fortified manor house is the dwelling of a wealthy individual, usually from the non-noble aristocracy, who possibly has a few enemies. The manor house itself is designed to give the resident privacy but its defensive capabilities are mainly to keep unwanted guests out.

Moat houses are similar in many ways to the fortified manor house with the exception of their defensive structuring. Moat houses incorporate the terrain as an element of defense by using natural or manmade waterways to hold the outside world at a distance.

Towers are normally used as a means to increase how far a sentry can see. They are also the iconic structure wizards make their homes. Though strong and sturdy, towers aren’t meant to keep forces at bay for lengthy durations.

Fortresses are large outposts. Often, they are depicted as the homes of warlords and dictators. Fortresses serve as homes for nobles in embattled lands as well as regional centers of military or governmental might. Regardless of who controls a fortress, the point is clear: it holds a sizable fighting force, if not an army. Two derivatives of a fortress are the mott-and-bailey fortress and the Vauban fortification. Due to the differences in their construction, these two types of fortresses have their own chapters.

Finally, there is the castle. In terms of fantasy settings, the castle is the ultimate symbol of regional power. In addition to being a focus of governmental power, the castle is also the symbol of a region’s military might. Castles are ranked in terms of the number of walls that surround or are attached to the castle itself. The more concentric walls, the greater the castle’s defenses as well as its power. Castles are thus classified as single-, double-, or triple-walled castles.

Developing a Stronghold’s Personality

At first glance, a stronghold may seem to be little more than a collection of raw materials fashioned into a shelter. The truth is that all buildings have a personality. From the building’s design to its actual function, a stronghold has an aura that reveals how a viewer feels about it. You don’t think about it on a conscious level, but you do take away an impression of a building based on its location, shape, and (if you’ve been inside) its accommodations.

This section provides you with a rough guide of how to use the stronghold’s location, structure, and accommodations as a way to define its personality. Please note that while these generalizations are based on the average, they are by no means meant to be restrictive in how you wish to present a stronghold. In fact, any deviation from the “norm” will only add to the impact the structure has on the players.

Location
It’s true that where we live has a strong bearing on our personalities. The landscape shapes how open or closed we are to outsiders as well as how receptive we are to our neighbors. The same holds true for buildings. The design of a building has an impact on the perception of the building’s personality, but it’s only when everything is taken in consideration. This goes beyond the comparison of a low-peaked roof to a steep roof in a region with inclement weather.

For an example, a low, sinuous keep on the frigid reaches of a kingdom’s northern taiga will elicit a distinctly different impression than a bulky one that overshadows the same frigid terrain. The first leads one to believe that the keep is withdrawn and secretive while the latter gives the impression of projected strength and an air of confident domination. The taller the structure, the more imposing it is meant to be. The length/width dimensions provide the degree of openness, so long as the dimensions are on a 1:1 ratio (to be discussed later). Thus, the former structure feels like a cold and hostile snake while the latter gives the impression of supreme confidence (some may say arrogance) in its own strength while serving as a beacon for all in the area that safety is within reach.

Compare then, the same structures in a jungle. The sinuous keep will still have the feeling of a snake slithering along the ground, but fits in more with the landscape because vegetation is more likely to interfere with a taller keep. The larger structure appears to be entrapped by the jungle canopy. The upper levels of the jungle vegetation mayalso serve as a method to threaten to eventually topple the taller structures if the flora isn’t kept at bay.

It’s clear through these comparisons that the environment plays a large role in the way we view a structure and assign it a personality. But what role does elevation play? The two examples above illustrated the concepts of strongholds in temperature extremes without considering the elevation of the structures. The question of elevation is similar in concept to temperature extremes, but it is more complicated than what you’d think on the surface of it.

Generally speaking, the prime location for any fortification is the highest point in the region. The structure itself can be of any height, but the high ground is the key to defense of the stronghold. At least, this is the theory. While it’s true more often than not, high ground isn’t always the most desirable location for a fortification. If you placed a stronghold in a relatively inaccessible locale, chances are that the people it’s meant to protect will find it hard to access it as well. And if the local populace can’t reach the shield of the land, chances are that those defenders will be hard pressed to meet any invasion forces before substantial damage has been caused in the lowlands.

In order to combat such problems, the fort occupying the highest point will serve as the regional capitol as well as the primary lookout point that warns other fortifications in the region that there are invaders in the area. To combat discrepancies of distance, the main fortress will need several smaller garrisons spread throughout the area to govern defense in the lowlands. The high ground in this example gives the military the ability to signal trouble in the area to the garrisons. Such a setup allows for the main forces in the capitol stronghold enough time to reach the invading force to stiffen and reinforce the soldiers already on the ground.

But this is not always the ideal setup. If the highest point is in a location that is unable to sustain a community, then it is as much a liability as it may be an advantage. Should there be a resource of importance to the kingdom, then it is most likely that the stronghold will be placed in a more suitable location in relation to the resource. The best location for such defense will be as close to the resource as physically possible.

However, unless there’s some overriding circumstance, a stronghold will never be placed at the lowest point. By placing a fortification in the depths of a ravine, the builder of such a structure is foolhardy in believing that it’s protected from attacks. All one would need to do is roll a few boulders down onto the structure to destroy it. If you have sufficient cover (say a jungle), then you’d be at an advantage. The sacrifice of the high ground in such a case is in return for the benefit of concealment. In other words, if you can’t see the stronghold, then it doesn’t really exist until you run into it.

Structure
As implied in the preceding section, the structure of a stronghold is a major part of the building’s personality. A fortified manor house on a plain gives the feeling that it’s a farmer’s residence in a hostile area. An imperial palace in the same locale denotes the heartland of an empire. If a wizard’s tower sat on the site instead, it would project an image of someone who prefers isolation and wishes to keep his privacy.

All three structures provide the beginnings of a back story. In the manor house, a minor noble, rich farmer, or wealthy merchant could potentially live in an idyllic setting. The spacious grounds of an imperial palace suggest that a metropolis surrounds the stronghold and may welcome trade. The wizard’s tower makes one pause before venturing deeper into the plains surrounding the structure. Note that in this location, it is the structure rather than the environment that makes the impression. This shouldn’t be confused with the effect the environment has on the structure. It is important to keep in mind that both elements go hand-in-hand.

Since it is now established that the type of structure plays a significant part in developing a stronghold’s personality, what about its size? As mentioned in the preceding section, the linear dimensions of a stronghold play an important, often subconscious role in how the structure affects its inhabitants and those who view it from afar. Height of a stronghold is a good indicator of how well the builder of the structure wants it to be seen. The taller a stronghold is, the greater its presence is meant to be felt. Thus, the type of stronghold is modified by its dimensions.

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The emotional impact of linear dimensions is demonstrated thus: one gains a sense of magnitude of strength and/or confidence of the stronghold’s builders simply by gazing upon a fortification of great height. Less obvious upon approach are the dimensions of length and width. We normally don’t consider these aspects of a building in personifying its nature unless confronted with them in reality.

Think of hallways compared to living rooms or your closet compared to your bedroom. The length and width have greater impact in such stark comparisons. Despite the length of the hallway or closet, you wouldn’t want to live with walls so close in the other dimension, unless you agoraphobic. The living room is more spacious and gives you a sense of open space and you probably wouldn’t want to sleep in your closet. Strongholds follow a similar rule of thumb.

Whenever you encounter a structure that’s long but shallow, you tend to regard it as a barrier. Thin and deep structures seem confining. Of course, any building with such unusual horizontal dimensions could be seen in either light if you can’t discern the stronghold’s entrance. Therefore, the placement of the main entrance to the stronghold dictates the building’s perceived width and length dimensions. In this manner, what the inhabitants of the fortification see to be the stronghold’s personality most likely will contrast with the interpretation inferred by individuals viewing it at another angle.

Complexities abound when you also consider the shape of the stronghold. Walls that slope away from the surrounding terrain denote a position of guarded defense. Conversely, if the walls slope outward or have an overhang, the structure possesses an aggressive posture. The resulting effect is that such a stronghold appears to have the ability to swallow anyone who wishes to assault its walls. Squared buildings with rigid lines are stoic and feel less threatening due to their similarity to most houses. Angular buildings, on the other hand, can conceal or distort their weaknesses through optical illusion. Finally, curvaceous strongholds use terrain to maximize their defense capabilities. Then again, depending on the terrain (e.g. craggy mountains), curvaceous strongholds may feel as artificial as squared fortifications.

Accommodations

As strange as it may sound, a stronghold’s accommodations help to define its personality. Buildings that offer little or no amenities seem hard and unforgiving. The mentality they reinforce for the inhabitants is bleak and unsympathetic if now downright oppressive. At the opposite end of the spectrum, various services and plush furnishings allow characters to lounge about when their skills aren’t needed elsewhere. In effect, the internal personality of the stronghold is unequivocally tied to the amenities available. This means that varying degrees of hospitality within your strongholds will indicate varying degrees of tension for your characters.

Typical services available to a self-supporting stronghold include a smithy, a stable, an armory, and ample storage space. These four elements are the cornerstones necessary for any small outpost to survive a siege for any period of time. In order of their listing, these items represent defense, mobility, offense, and time. While these accommodations are part and parcel of most strongholds, they are not necessarily required based on the emphasis placed on each by the stronghold’s type. Each successive chapter on the various types of strongholds will illustrate the essential elements for the structure in question.

An accommodation also represents how open or closed the stronghold is to visitors. The proliferation or lack of guest quarters is one of the easiest ways to define how amenable the site is to outsiders. Other indicators of hospitality can be used to personify the stronghold as well. A stronghold that opens itself up to merchants promotes trade and the acquisition of news, and allows soldiers to obtain a smattering of goods which would otherwise be unobtainable commodities. For the benefit of all, a string of strongholds may be used to secure a trade route through a region.

Small-scale strongholds must specialize through their choices of accommodations because space is at a premium. The larger structures, such as castles, have enough space to afford more luxuries without needing to forego rooms that could be useful in the long run. However, the fact that they can afford such accommodations also lessens the intimacy that gives a smaller structure such a powerful personality. As minor of a role accommodations play in the stronghold’s personality, these subtleties can have quite an impact.

Developing a Stronghold’s Purpose

Every building, from a grass hut to a skyscraper in the modern era, has a purpose. While the grass hut is designed to give protection from wind and rain, it’s far from adequate to meet the demands of a corporation. Strongholds too, are designed with practicality at the forefront. They serve as defensive positions, but just as importantly are designed with the intent to provide that defense without hemming in the occupants.

No matter how defensively-minded the occupants may be, the stronghold also serves as a home. Should a structure fail to meet the basic requirements to serve as a place of housing, then the structure itself is flawed. The basic necessities required for living must be included in the design of a stronghold, even if the kitchen turns out to be a fire pit set in the center of an encampment surrounded by a wooden palisade and the garrison is a bedroll. Thus, the ultimate purpose of the stronghold must be secondary to these considerations in order for its role to be fulfilled as planned.

Location
The placement of a stronghold for many gamers is accomplished by picking a spot on the map in an arbitrary fashion. Perhaps the greatest strategist in the world could do such a thing effectively, but for the rest of us a bit more planning is recommended. You can choose to use such a method if you prefer, but be aware that if you are planning for the structure to be used by professional soldiers and have any longevity in your campaign, it may lose its luster fast.

The expression “location is everything” is true when it comes to strongholds. There are logical rules to placing structures. Mountain passes guarded by keeps are placed on a summit because that’s the most advantageous point. Towers don’t house cavalry due to the stronghold’s confining nature. At least, these are the general traits of stronghold usage.

Each structure has its ideal locations, which will be described in each respective chapter. What is important to keep in mind is that these spots are the conventional placement. You can go against type if you wish, but it’s important to know how you’re breaking the rules so you know how to make such fortifications work in otherwise disadvantageous settings. And for this reason you need to know the purpose of the stronghold in order for it to make sense for that particular spot.

Structures such as the fortified manor house and the stand-alone tower are examples of strongholds that reveal much about their purpose based on their proximity to civilization. The degree of isolation the inhabitants of either stronghold desire is directly related to how far away they are from the nearest town.

Castles and keeps are harder to define regardless of their locations. A castle surrounded by a city is a metropolitan locale, but unless you know its situation, it’s difficult to tell from a distance whether the castle if viewed as protector or oppressor. Castles in the wilderness could be new constructions or intended to be hidden fortresses. Keeps in the wilderness generally signify a border defense. Conversely, a keep in or near a settlement could be there to protect the community or a resource that produced the community. Then again, that could be part of the mystery the players are about to uncover.

Structure
When it comes to purpose, the structure of a stronghold speaks volumes. The realization of just how a stronghold is used can usually be learned by a seasoned tactician at first glance. This impression is based on preconceived notions of how strongholds are laid out. That’s because from beyond the outer walls of strongholds, telling details can be spotted to see how the buildings are employed in the overall defense of the occupants. In fact, one of the best reasons for a stronghold to occupy high ground is to prevent a top-down view that gives one’s enemies a chance to better understand the weak points of the fortification’s layout.

As an example, if the stable of a border fortress is set to have a clear line to the main gate it is apparent that the cavalry garrisoned there will have enough room to allow it to burst from the compound at breakneck speeds to overtake an enemy through surprise and shock. Conversely, strongholds with little room between the main buildings and the outer wall are meant to hinder the progress of any invaders. With the gates swinging inward, an assaulting force will be hemmed in at the gate even though they are within the compound proper. Supported by arrow slits and unseen vantage points, the inviting ruse allows the defenders to set up a killing field, albeit a risky one.

The end result is that conventional designs are anything but what they seem. While a general impression of a stronghold’s structure allows you to gauge its true purpose, it is just enough to allow you to underestimate the true strengths and weakness of the fortification. In a fantasy setting where magic is easily available, this is doubly true. The fortified manor house surrounded by peaceful farmland may look innocuous enough, but it may be the lair of a powerful wizard or the façade for a stronghold that lies underground to hide its true capabilities.

What’s the point to all of this? Due to the conventionality of many of the plans illustrated in this book, you’ll come to understand how taking a “cookie-cutter” approach by reusing the examples time and again will weaken the stronghold’s purpose as someone will eventually discover this secret. With the rare exception of fortifications among which a proven design is the best for their specific region, most are designed separately. Border fortifications, for example, will vary from one to the next in order to confuse marauding armies and to maximize defense through forcing such armies to use different tactics to assault each stronghold. This is useful in that it disrupts communications during efforts to overrun the kingdom.

By not sticking to a conventional plan time and again, you confuse invaders and allow your own forces to capitalize on the hesitation that follows. In truth, all that you need to do for such a pause to take place is to make minor variations in a structure. Techniques such as using mirrored images, facing the gates towards the nation’s interior and changing the patterns of crenellations and arrow slits serve this function. The purpose of the stronghold (defending a region, resource, or inhabitants) remains intact, but now anyone who wants to assault a particular structure must now determine how such subtle changes affect the defensive capabilities, strengths, and weaknesses of the structure.

As the strongholds are presented, the purpose of each can also be evaluated in terms of design. In other words, a fortified manor house is a personal protection whereas a castle is a governmental defensive structure. Of all the structures, the manor house and the tower are the only two that are deemed to be individual protection. The remaining structures are designed with the concept of securing land, power, or governmental systems. Thus, you could say that the focus of importance shifts from the individual to the nation as whole as you move through the chapters.

Accommodations

When it comes to the purpose of a stronghold, accommodations speak more volumes about the structure’s function than any other aspect. For example, a stronghold that’s considerably more a warehouse than a garrison is intended to provide tough security for the goods stored there. A manor house is primarily a private residence with toughened security to reinforce the privacy of the occupant. A castle is meant as a providential or capital seat of power. The space within each stronghold is maximized accordingly to aid its purpose.

To use an example from above, military quarters surrounded by a wooden palisade will spare just enough space for bathing and kitchens as to not interfere with the martial procedures the army engages in while garrisoned in that locale. Thus, a few cook fires are all that are necessary to ensure the soldiers are able to eat, even if they must do so in shifts. This leaves most of the space for the soldiers’ tents and a training ground where they can carry out military exercises. The wooden palisades may or may not be necessary for protection, depending on whether the temporary fortification is meant to aid a training exercise or is set up as a way for construction of a permanent structure to continue with little interference.

For any fortifications you plan to use in your campaign on a long-term basis, it is best if you know what accommodations are available to the occupants. Do the keeps surrounded by a town have store rooms, or does the town provide adequate supplies during potential lean times? If there’s an incursion into that town by monstrous villains, can the keep take in the huddled masses and spare their lives? This is what is meant by accommodations defining the purpose of the stronghold. No defensive structure can survive anything and everything thrown at it. However, with a bit of careful evaluation it is quite possible that you can plan the stronghold to ensure that it fulfills its purpose by being self-sufficient in critical areas.

Also, please keep in mind that no room stands on its own. No matter how you lay out a stronghold, the proximities of the rooms to each other expresses the importance of certain factors over others. As previously stated, the layout of a stronghold gives clues to its purpose. The proximity of the accommodations to one another amplifies the importance of purpose. A garrison placed adjacent (or nearly so) to a stable implies that it houses cavalry troops. An armory placed near a guard tower emphasizes dependence on ranged weaponry or weapons storage while the guards are off duty.

It is important that the accommodations of a stronghold fit the intended purpose while allowing living conditions within to exist unhindered. This is especially true when you consider that the structure was designed with some aspect of comfort built into its design. While this may seem a stretch for the remote outpost where a watchful eye must be ever alert, sleeping conditions that allow for the greatest relaxation possible increases the awareness of fully rested soldiers when compared to a location that only offers cold stones. The Spartan conditions may help to focus attentions on the stronghold’s purpose, but the lack of comfort will actually undermine the intent.

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Developing a Perception of a Stronghold

Without knowing what is inside a stronghold, its location and physical aspects provide only a superficial perception of that stronghold’s personality. Every aspect of developing a stronghold’s personality and purpose as stated previously in this chapter is from the point of view of a new occupant of that stronghold. To develop the viewpoint of someone from the outside, you sue the came concepts but exclude the interior of the stronghold.

The perception derived from a structure’s personality and purpose is directly affected by the nearest population center. Unlike personality and purpose, the perception of these aspects can vary greatly. On one side, you have the view from the invader who sees the structure as a shield for the region. On the other you have the view from the local populace; who may know the true function of the stronghold but may experience something entirely different. For example, the stronghold may be for their protection, but depending on the situation, the locals may get the cold shoulder – or worse – from the soldiers garrisoned nearby.

Location

This aspect of a stronghold is most important to someone who wants to invade it. While the locals may have a problem with the idea that the inhabitants of the nearby stronghold can anonymously spy on them from their lofty vantage point, chances are more likely that they see the stronghold as their protector. Or, if the fortress is controlled by a ruthless tyrant, it may be the symbol of evil appearing as a vulture crouched on a cliff watching its prey become weaker. From a rival military’s point of view, however, location has an immediate and practical use. It defines the advantages and disadvantages of the stronghold and gives the planners of an assault a concept of what strategy they would need to employ.

The proximity of a stronghold to civilization or the resource it is meant to protect also projects an image. Depending on the point of view, a stronghold placed far from what it is intended to defend can be seen to serve as a screen to delay reaching the object in question, or the object may be perceived as inconsequential. Strongholds that are surrounded by towns may have once been border guards or regional law enforcement, but have since attracted settlers who wished to provide one service or another to the fortification only to accrete more citizens wishing to start an enterprise dealing with the stronghold. The return for the citizens is that they live in the shadow of their protectors. This allows them a certain level of security that wilderness settlements without such structures lack.

However, should the structure lie just outside of a settlement, the perception from the outside is that it is either the culture doesn’t tolerate soldiers within civilized areas or that the region was conquered by some other invader. A stronghold set off center leads one to believe that the aforementioned attitudes have been changed and the local populace has come to embrace the stronghold. Only through closer inspection would the local view of the stronghold be revealed to foreigners.

Fortified manor houses, conversely, signify not a military presence, but that of a minor noble or successful merchant. Indeed, such structures are prime targets for marauders, one of the reasons that they have some form of protection. A major military force would generally pass by such a “fortification” that in their point of view is of little consequence. This is one of the reasons why the previous section spoke of conventionality and the façade. The estate of some petty merchant may come in handy at some point, but it is more hassle than it’s worth at the outset. How the locals would view the owner of such an estate depends on his reputation.

Finally, the larger and/or more heavily fortified a stronghold is, the more important the region, resource, or settlement is to the governing body. There is a direct correlation between this and the number of soldiers such a stronghold can hold or repel. The locals would definitely take notice of this, especially if the stronghold is controlled by an occupying force. The larger the structure is, the more support it needs in terms of resources to sustain it. This will draw merchants and send rival militaries in search of the stronghold’s supply routes in order to pinch them.

Structure

The shape of the stronghold is more prominent to the perception of outsiders than its classification. Yes, the leader of an army determined to assault a stronghold will take its size and layout into consideration, but when it comes to actually laying siege to the structure, the military commander will give the shape more weight than any other aspect because he commander will be forced to consider how it functions to help the occupants repel an assault. For the nonmilitary mind, the shape of a stronghold will only give pause if it is aesthetically unusual. The average person will walk away with little change to their expected impression of the stronghold unless it has features that make it look disconcerting (spikes, horrific carvings, etc.)

There is little chance that a structure’s shape will significantly impact its perception unless it contains unique design features. These features are what stand out in the minds of soldiers and laypeople alike. The designs need not be functional for physical defense, but they will have a psychological impact. The more unusual a shape is, the more a military commander must spend time figuring out how it helps the stronghold. For the civilian, the disconcerting appearance of a stronghold signifies either that an evil force is venerated within or that the structure that would be feared by the occupant’s enemies.

Nothing of the general layout should overpower the stronghold to the point that its structural classification is ignored. A tower, no matter how scary looking, is still a tower. The shape of the stronghold and its appearance carry it only so far without the structure. Just as the last two paragraphs were placed before this point, so too does the appearance register an impression first.

Your stronghold will always be more important than the decorations. The problem is that the sentient mind doesn’t perceive it in such stark terms. The commoners living in the shadow of a stronghold are much more amenable to a structure with symbols that show it as a guardian of the people, but the size proves just how valued they are. The reverse holds true with a structure covered in symbols of the worst fears of the culture. Then again, the reputations within the occupants in the stronghold could trounce all of this.

In retrospect, all elements of the structure should be combined to give an overall perception from an outsider’s point of view. With all the information you have at your fingertips from developing the stronghold, this may seem like a daunting task. To make it easier for you to establish a perception without telling the players how their characters feel, start with the look of the place, its size, and then its type. The players may infer more from this, which may work in favor of your campaign.

Purpose

The purpose of a stronghold may not be readily apparent to outsiders or commoners. Using the guidelines described above, most outsiders will theorize the stronghold’s purpose while the commoners will have a generalized view of the place (beneficial, oppressive, etc.). All sorts of strange notions may come from such inference, especially if your stronghold goes against type. The outsider may give it a military quality you know it clearly lacks while the commoners may have foolish rumors they trade amongst themselves. A good example of the latter would be the Bastille which was perceived as a symbol of the corruption of the French ruling class despite its true nature as a prison.

A more accurate perception can be generated by knowing the intended purpose of the stronghold. This is a situation you would likely encounter along the border of two long-standing enemies. The offensive and defensive capacities of each military have long since been understood by each side. However, this does not mean that they are locked into a static situation where the results will always come out in a predictable fashion.

Recall from the section above about using variations on a stronghold’s purpose through layout and accommodations how subtle changes can cause unexpected leverage against one’s attacker. Something to include in this line of thought is the staffing of the stronghold. The types of soldiers may and usually do change over time. Because of this, an enemy force would be foolhardy to expect the same counterattack during successive attempts at invasion. The result is a deadly game of prodding the defenses for a weak spot and attempting to predict the next set of changes.

Imagine how such changes would play upon the minds of commoners. Rumors of all sorts of events would be the talk of the local communities. Each such rumor could be the trigger point to an adventure. Chances are quite high that even if the players aren’t directly involved, someone’s going to use changes in the guard to their advantage. The stirrings of rebellion could be in the wind amongst the talk of fears of another invasion. And the perception of the stronghold’s purpose could shift once again.

Personality

Of all the qualities that affect the perception of a stronghold by outsiders, the personality of the structure (as viewed from the inside) is the least likely to be noticeable to anyone but the local populace. It is mentioned here because characters are likely to feel the effects of the reactions between the locals and the stronghold’s inhabitants. The perception is most likely going to color how the characters react to the stronghold until they know the truth of the situation. Thus, this is a tool for you to use to develop a web of intrigue in your campaign that the characters may be forced to unravel.

The colorization of a stronghold’s persona from an outside source serves two purposes. First, it allows the players to gauge the feelings of the public’s view on the government (local or otherwise). Second, it allows you the opportunity to mislead the sympathies of the players until the truth of a situation is revealed. As some may argue this is dishonest and not fitting for a role-playing game, we must point out that mysteries employ this technique with great frequency.

Advantages and Disadvantages

There is no such thing as a perfect defense. Strongholds are built with key advantages to maximize their purpose. Unfortunately, this means that strongholds must be deficient in other areas. The advantages and disadvantages that define a structure are part of the specialization that comes with a having purpose. The earlier example of a tower not being the ideal structure for cavalry falls under this heading. The tower’s height is its main advantage. It allows the occupants to spot targets from a distance far greater than would be possible for shorter structures. However, it does not provide adequate space for a stable or room to allow the horses to sprint out of the main entrance.

Advantages and disadvantages of stronghold technology make use of the three key factors you’ve become accustomed to seeing. The rules governing what gives boons and detriments to fortifications are location, structure, and accommodations. These are always the overriding factors that receive top priority in our consideration of strongholds.

Location

Would you put a stronghold on top of a cliff or at the base of one? Would you put a lookout tower at the bottom of a valley? Chances are you wouldn’t place your stronghold at the base of a cliff because someone could then rain heavy objects down onto it. Rather you’d place it on top of the cliff so you could order troops to roll objects down onto your enemies. The tower in the valley would be highly impractical as a lookout since the surrounding terrain is at a higher elevation. A wizard, however, may put a tower in a valley to keep it isolated and well warded with enchantments.

But unless you’re employing a great deal of magical defenses, you shouldn’t think in terms of how can you break the rules. Rather, you should be using the viewpoint of a general who has no magical talent at his disposal. In fact, many magically enhanced strongholds will merge the magical with the mundane to give the fortification a greater chance at survival. After all, a few magical effects that dispel or disrupt a stronghold’s magical defenses could render its unique locale a liability. In this way, you should give pause to any structure that goes against the conventional.

Location plays a heavy factor in the type of stronghold you use in other ways as well. You should avoid creating any stronghold that relies on artificial means to allow it to exist. The chink in the armor of such a stronghold could easily be exploited, rendering the structure defenseless and quickly kill the occupants. By artificial, we are referring to any method, magical or otherwise, that artificially sustains the stronghold in a region inhospitable to it or its inhabitants. This could be a castle for air-breathers at the bottom of an ocean, for example.

The vast spread of an imperial palace is best suited for a plain. But what if you don’t have any significant tract of flat land upon which to build the castle? The costs to level a large enough section of a mountain would be prohibitive. The alternative solution for such a structure is to have several outlying buildings on the surface of the mountain with the remainder of the fortification embedded within. Such a stronghold would be hard to overrun. The classical dwarven stronghold uses this model where a few keeps serve as or guard the entrance to the fortification and/or subterranean settlement.

Unless you want to spend extra time, money, and effort to build a stronghold in an area with limited space many regions will force you to reconsider what you build in that location. A castle in a forest or jungle would enjoy relative obscurity from the ground, but the area that must be carved out of the foliage allows it to be spotted from the air. The hole in the canopy alone stands out. Imagine how much more so a castle complete with spires thrusting above the canopy would be noticeable. Smaller structures would be better suited for such environments.

As you can see, not only is location an important factor in determining many aspects of a stronghold, it is also key in defining the qualities that will allow a specific category of strongholds to excel above others in a certain location. Also, the size of the structure will help or hinder it based upon the terrain where it’s situated. Location is by far the primary determinant of where a stronghold will go, what size it will be, and for what sorts of purposes it will have the greatest advantage (cavalry likes flat ground, artillery/archers have greater advantage from high ground, etc.).

Structure

Beyond the size of the structure, category of the structure plays a secondary role in determining the advantages and disadvantages of a stronghold. Each type of fortification comes with its own inherent set of benefits and pitfalls based upon the predominant purpose for building it. For instance, the fortified manor house is foremost a dwelling for the occupant with protection and privacy being ensured by its armored nature. A castle on the other hand serves not only as housing for a ruler, but it also serves as the seat of government, a garrison, and defensive structure. Depending on the government in question, all but a few areas of a castle are truly restricted from public access. Often a castle must be all things to all people.

The stronghold therefore, must be considered advantageous or not based on how well its structure fits against the background of the location. This is where form and function must agree as much as possible for the stronghold to be considered successful. To refer back to the illustration of the tower with cavalry again, this is extremely disadvantageous in that everything’s contained in one building. Without artificially controlling the issue of disease there’s a strong chance that both the occupants and the horses could become sick.

The only way a tower could become advantageous for such a use would require magical intervention. This is because of the inherent lack of open space needed to keep the stables away from the kitchen and sleeping quarters. To see this concept in action from a non-stronghold point of view, think about how a farm is designed. The animal pens are kept as far away from the bedrooms and kitchen as possible. Space is the premium that structures use to create the advantages and disadvantages that maximize the stronghold’s purpose. This is a fundamental underlying principle that will help you make your strongholds stand against a storyline that otherwise could be taken as preposterous.

Bigger is not always better in the world of strongholds. In fact, the larger a stronghold, the more problems it is likely to face. This is why few strongholds are large. Smaller strongholds are cheaper (individually), are constructed more quickly, and allow a string of fortifications to be set in a line. The distribution of strongholds in this fashion allows for a more equalized distribution of military power within a region. In some ways, you could view this in the same light as how modern police stations operate in large cities. You have a main headquarters, a few precincts, and kiosks to allow maximum coverage. In a fantasy setting this would be a castle, a few fortresses, and small keeps spread about in like fashion.

No matter which structures you choose to use for strongholds, you will want your nations to have more power concentrated in the interior of a nation rather than along its borders. The outlying regions may fall due to this style of defense, but as an invading force moves towards the heart of nation, it will face stiffer resistance. If you put everything along the borders, you run the risk of an enemy breaking through and facing weaker forces and overwhelming them. Vast curtain walls could help you keep invaders out for a while, but eventually some means will be found to circumvent a defense.

Accommodations

The advantages and disadvantages associated with a fortification’s accommodations come not just from what’s present, but how it is arranged. If you look at the structure of a modern house, for example, you’ll notice that the bedrooms are clustered together, the kitchen, family room, den, etc. are clustered in another region of the house with the bathroom located roughly between the two areas. The layout is effective because it minimizes its own disadvantages. A similar approach can be used with strongholds.

As with your modern dwellings, strongholds generally cluster various rooms together. The kitchen will have a pantry or storage room in close proximity. The stable will be placed on the opposite side of the building from the kitchen. Strongholds that have their own armories and smithies will normally see these two clustered together as well. These clusters allow disadvantages to be minimized as best as possible.

Following the clustering of like-themed rooms, the martial qualities of a stronghold will be similarly arranged. From the outer perimeter of a defensive barrier (such as a wall) to the offensive capabilities connected to the stronghold, there is a pattern that a stronghold follows. In fact, the defenses of a stronghold will be intertwined with the offensive. The crenellations along the wall are one such feature that illustrates this point. The raised portions of the crenellations provide cover while the open portions along the rampart provide the guards with a way to fend off attackers.

Towers incorporated into the curtain wall of a castle and stables with a straight line to the main gates also show how the accommodations can be arranged to give a greater edge to the advantages of a stronghold. The tower allows guards to spot an approaching army without leaving the lookout stranded. The wall prevents the army from overrunning the castle while the troops within prepare to counterattack from within. By having ample space to run straight towards the gates when open, cavalry can explode out of the castle at a dead run. This tactic allows them to function as shock troops.

The disadvantage to accommodations being place in groups comes when an attacking force breaks through a stronghold’s walls. The clusters allow a savvy commander to plan how a stronghold will be raided once its defenses are cracked. While laying siege to the stronghold, the same commander will probably be able to discern where to concentrate his resources to weaken the defenders of the stronghold. In the same token, this means that the maximization of the stronghold’s advantages will consequently leave certain regions at a disadvantage.

Strategy & Tactics of Strongholds

If it hasn’t been stressed enough, let us reiterate that each category of stronghold has its own unique strategy and tactics for conducting offensive and defensive maneuvers. It would therefore be impractical to attempt to detail strategies and tactics in this section. Also, it wouldn’t be wise to stress any generalities either. We must emphasize that the general strategy for each category does not take into account the structure’s layout. This is deliberate as the previous sections have detailed the generalities as much as possible concerning structures, layouts, and accommodations. When designing a stronghold, please refer to the category the structure belongs to in order to devise a feasible set of strategies and tactics for that particular fortification.

Construction

With the planning of a stronghold completed, the construction phase can begin. Building a stronghold is a relatively straightforward process. An engineer or two is necessary to oversee the process and ensure that the stronghold doesn’t end up lopsided or collapse after it’s built. Part of that also means that decisions must be made about the material used and whether any decorative features will be added to the building. Despite this, note that the times for construction do not correspond with historical equivalents. Such a model would leave the average castle far from complete during the span of an average-length campaign.

Costs for the construction of a stronghold are based on its size, the materials used, and whether any permanent features (sculptures, carvings, spikes, etc.) are incorporated into the final design. If a room is carved or excavated from the terrain, such as a mountain fortress or a cellar, you should be aware that the costs will increase by at least 3. The amount of material used for the walls of a room built 30 square feet by 10 feet tall and 1 foot thick walls is equal to 1,200 cubic feet of material. The same room carved from stone or excavated in some other way would equal 9,000 cubic feet of material. That’s more than seven times the material! Of course, if the structure is a mountain stronghold with subterranean features, then the stone can be used for the surface buildings. At an increase of 3x the cost, that’s a bargain.

The materials used in a structure are important in that they can affect how long it would take to build the stronghold as well as the cost. You may think that cutting costs and corners will help. When the stronghold is assaulted, you’ll know whether it was worth the savings. The survivability factor decreases significantly when you use materials softer than stone. On the other hand, if your strongholds greatest advantage is due to camouflage, it may be best to forego the heavy construction materials. If you can’t find the stronghold in the first place, then its camouflage makes up for the relatively lightly armed state.

Last, you should consider the occupants of the stronghold. The structure should be sized to accommodate the intended inhabitants. A gnome wouldn’t build a structure for himself on the scale necessary for a giant. The size of a stronghold and the costs of the components should be adjusted to the same scale. Thus, if a kitchen needs to be three times larger in every dimension, the costs should be 9 times those given for the example stronghold.

Infrastructure & Upkeep

The last feature to consider when a stronghold has been constructed is the infrastructure that will support it. This includes supply lines for consumables and other resources necessary to ensure the stronghold is able to do its job. Infrastructure is given in monthly increments for the amount of material needed to sustain the occupants and their various professions. If the infrastructure is somehow removed from the stronghold, as in a siege, there are problems for the occupants. The samples of the strongholds provided in each chapter will include information about how each is supported and the minimum infrastructure necessary for each stronghold to function as designed.

Maintenance requires a monthly stipend as well. The cost for maintenance runs the gamut for cleaning to inspections to repair work necessary to keep the building from crumbling. The upkeep is tedious work that remains in the background. In fact, the costs assume that the servants/staff are the ones who perform these functions. Skimp on the maintenance costs, however, and within a few months to a year, disadvantages as hindrance of movement within the stronghold to weakening of the walls themselves may appear.

A stronghold without an infrastructure to support it or the ability to maintain itself will soon be abandoned and left to fall into ruin. Many ancient ruins in your campaign may very well have fallen victim to this fate if they weren’t assaulted outright. Any ruins and the story of their fall are left to your imagination, whether it is the tragic tale of war, the consequence of a successful siege, or the failure to plan a workable stronghold.

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All right. Xan. What you posted is very good work, excellent perhaps, but it still doesn't mean that you get any more authority than anyone else here. It doesn't illustrate anything I'm afraid as I already knew you were a good writer. Even if you're published in a book and are a best seller; here you are still an author working in a community on a shared work. The decisions made about how the Planescape setting will be reflected in the rules are based on three major factors.

The first is what most people call cannon and the plot and setting itself. Now in second edition this meant that the rules where heavily faction based, but due to the Lady's edict the factions no longer have the direct power they once had in second edition. That changed before the ps3e staff even got here. Fact is, the factions are not in power as they were in sigil and that is why they made many of those decisions.

The second factor is how Wotc is doing things. This is Planescape 3rd edition and the people here want to make our rules compatible with theirs. Furthermore you said that Wotc would not be willing to publish the material if it was just like what they already have published. This is wrong. They will want to publish similar material because they know that such material has been successful. Also if they choose to publish the people here would only get a say if they felt so kind as to give us one. The ps3e staffers simply do not have the funds to produce print books. In order to gather new players it is also vital that the rules stick to the standards that are already put forth in the current Wotc products as that allows players familiar with the 3rd and 3.5th editions to easily use our work, both of those editions are wildly more popular than 2nd ed ever was.

The third factor is judgment. That is to say what most people here feel is right. The way people get that feeling is through experience actually playing the game and running it. Now statistics can help us figure out how often things should probably happen, but remember this is a different universe from ours. How do you really know how often a riot will break out if X xaosmen are in an area? How much better is a +1 sword, statistically to a regular sword in the hands of the average fighter? The decision to leave it up to the GM's to decide whether or not and how to enforce faction membership and disadvantages was made because most people agree that it is the simplest and least cumbersome solution. Now this site welcomes proposals to build a mechanic that reflects this but the decision for the official core rules has been made and it was made a while ago. Again I would like to point out that with the recent Faction Wars and the Lady's edict that many things have changed in the factions and things are no were near as homogenous as they might once have been.

Another thing you have mentioned is the lack of support for new players and that there is no real introduction for new players in the rules. Please keep in mind that most of the chapters of the first official release of ps3e are not even online yet. The introduction you want for new players will probably be in the 1st chapter, the Introduction chapter. As for introductions to sigil and the factions themselves I would point you to the two chapters already out; they really are good and both of them are about setting, not the mechanics so you shouldn't have much of a problem with them.

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"Emperor Xan" wrote:
I'm going to post something I wrote for a contract I competed for to illustrate my point.

Minor question, (and completely unrelated to the debate at hand) - posting that up here didn't violate a NDA did it? Just asking in case you hadn't thought of that, since this was for a professional (aka, paid) job and I don't want to see you getting in trouble with anyone.

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No one has answered my question concerning the text I posted. I assure you that it is perfectly on topic and will greatly illustrate my point and what I'm driving at.

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"Emperor Xan" wrote:
No one has answered my question concerning the text I posted. I assure you that it is perfectly on topic and will greatly illustrate my point and what I'm driving at.
Dude, what he meant was that his QUESTION was unrelated, not your text...

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"Emperor Xan" wrote:
No one has answered my question concerning the text I posted. I assure you that it is perfectly on topic and will greatly illustrate my point and what I'm driving at.

I'm sorry but I am unsure of what question you want answered. Xan, could you please re-post it?

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Do you think I secured the contract?

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...

Xan, I have no idea what the hell you're getting at.

Your work is very thorough. So... I'll say...

:Primus flips a coin:

Yes, you got the contract. Now PLEASE get to the damn point.

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"Emperor Xan" wrote:
Do you think I secured the contract?

Fine yes. Though if you're going to say that makes you a profesional. I've already said that I don't care and given several reasons why not. I direct you to the post I made after you posted your contract work. Oh and please make sure that you're not breaking the contract by posting that here.

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Actually, I lost that contract. I lost out to someone with lesser writing skills. According to the person I submitted this sample to, I came in second. Anyone want to guess why I failed to get the project?

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Because of your attitude?

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I assure you, everything's in the text before you. I lost the contract for the piece I posted, but because of it's quality, I was offered another.

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"Emperor Xan" wrote:
English is a Germanic language, so it is a grammatical point as well as being etymological in nature. You may not like the fact that I'm correcting this, because you consider it to be pedantic and taciturn, but this is what editing is all about. If you're going to use a gender word, employ it throughout a piece, don't make up politically corrupt words.

Uh... sorry, but this is bothering me. You missused taciturn, while critiqueing someone else's usage. Taciturn means 'untalkative' and no one has ever accused you of that.

Furthermore, the etymology of a word often has no bearing on modern usage. English is a germanic language, but the language has shifted dramatically through mixing with norse and norman french, and is a far cry from what the words meant when it was anglo-saxon. According to the OED, Man no longer has nothing to do with 'one.' It cannot be used as gender neutral, except in general sense (as in 'the race of mankind'), which doesn't fit the context of the original post.

Anyway, this is a webboard, so editing doesn't really matter, does it?

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According to the Oxford English Grammer Dictionary, man is the correct term. However, it also states that you can use words like they and their as singular pronouns. If such a construction bothers the writer, the OEGD goes on to state that you should use plurals to avoid genderization.

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factotums
Joined: 2004-05-11
Representing the Factions/Sects in 3e/3.5

"Emperor Xan" wrote:
According to the Oxford English Grammer Dictionary, man is the correct term. However, it also states that you can use words like they and their as singular pronouns. If such a construction bothers the writer, the OEGD goes on to state that you should use plurals to avoid genderization.
I'm sorry, but I don't think anyone here feels like receiving lessons in English from an individual who misspells "grammar." It's like being shot in the kneecap with 9 millimeters of irony. Despite what some people are beginning to say, "they" is still a plural pronoun, and should not be used as a singular pronoun. Hence, the WotC books, for example, alternate between "he" and "she" to remain gender equality. The problem with the usage is that it creates plurality confusion in sentences.

Regardless, this conversation is not about grammar or spelling or writing style. It's about ideas for Planescape. The fact is, a sizeable group of thoughtful designers with a varied range of ideas discussed this exact idea for months (and, believe it or not, plenty of them wanted to do it a different way) and they arrived at one unifying method for representing faction abilities in the PSCS. This doesn't mean that you have to use these rules, simply that the official material put out by this site will adhere to them. You can even make and utilize material that will be hosted by this site that does not adhere to those rules. Please also note that these rules only govern the representation of faction abilities in game rules. All the old material still stands regarding faction philosophies, relations, organizations, and so on. In fact, more information is being filled in as the setting is developed past where it was left off when it shut down, which does include Faction War. The fact that you were not a part of this designing group does not mean that you were actively excluded from it, nor does it mean that there is a vast conspiracy to crush your game-designing fantasies, nor does it mean that Planewalker is corrupt or pandering to powergaming, nor does it in any way give you the right to throw this much of a fit. Get over it. Express your ideas here, but don't harass people, make empty accusations, or belittle the project.

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factotums
Joined: 2004-06-29
Representing the Factions/Sects in 3e/3.5

Why do you keep referring to the old material? Neophytes can't buy it from their local stores without getting really damaged copies or paying through the nose for them.

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Webmonkey
Joined: 2008-06-30
Representing the Factions/Sects in 3e/3.5

We are not legally allowed to reproduce prior works word for word. The pdf's of Planescape materials are available at RPGnet. And Planescape materials are pretty available on eBay. In fact my current GM (a neophyte) has a nearly complete collection within 2 years of becoming interested. The material is available.

Planescape, Dungeons & Dragons, their logos, Wizards of the Coast, and the Wizards of the Coast logo are ©2008, Wizards of the Coast, a subsidiary of Hasbro Inc. and used with permission.