Redundant Factions, New Factions?

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Tequila Sunrise's picture
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Redundant Factions, New Factions?

I've decided to use Sigil for the first time in more than five years (yay!), and it's gotten me thinking about the factions.

See, I always felt that a couple of them are rather redundant. For example, Mercykillers just seem like sadistic hardheads; do they really deserve their own faction? On the other hand, there are a couple philosophies that seem like they'd make for great faction politics. Like communists. Maybe they'd be too much of a nod toward the real world, but they're a perfect counterpoint for the Fated.

I know there's no rhyme or reason to faction philosophies, and that I can wield my DM hammer however I want, but I'm curious. Does anyone else see any faction as redundant? Or have you added a faction to your own Sigil?

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Re: Redundant Factions, New Factions?

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I try to define the planes more on a philosophical idea more than by alignment. When I did this, I found the factions fell in line with these philosophical ideas (admittedly, I had also added several new planes)

But I guess my point is that I could see you uniting or breaking up factions in any number of ways. The "Factions of Law" could easily be viewed as one combined faction with different focuses. And this might make it more intriguing. For example, the PCs are confronted by a member of the "Faction of Law" and at first interact with him as though he was a single-minded, but well-intended cop (i.e. a Harmonium) but later they discover that he is hiding a secret, sadistic passion for punishing the "wicked" (i.e. a Mercykiller)
Conversely, if there was an "uber-faction" for law, I could easily see the Xaositects and Indeps having muched more focused goals in opposing them, thus giving them a little bit more of a purpose

I took the opposite route and splintered things further (although this diminished the forceful impact of the factions in play). Aside from a few well-known groups (Wylders, Merkants, etc.) some of the factions I included are:
-The Forgesmiths - a group focused on technological advancement (largely inspired by Bytopia) Aside from gnomes, I had a large number of warforged join up seeking to find a place in the world for themselves

-The Jesters - a group that seeks to shake people out of their conventional modes of thinking. This is often accomplished through comedy but anywhere people are just blindly following rules or tradition is a cause of concern for them

-The Abolitionists - a group dedicated to freedom (largely inspired by an aspect of Arborea). Usually this group focused on noble goals like seeking to liberate all slaves but some within the group take the idea to potentially unhealthy extremes (e.g. freeing all the captives of Carceri)

-The Caretakers of the Mind - a group that believes that the mad have glimsed into the secrets of profound knowledge (inspired by Pandemonium). They care for the insane while trying to piece together their shattered visions into a coherent whole. Some within the faction actually induce madness in innocents

-The Iron Ring – a secret group seeking to control all criminal activity in Sigil and then the planes (inspired by Gehenna). More philosophically driven than your average group of criminals

-The Revealing Light (inspired by another poster) - a neutral group seeking to make all knowledge available to everyone. This has both positive and negative aspects. E.g. Knowing where the Wand of Orcus is hidden allows a noble group to try to destroy it; but it also allows a lot of selfish berks to try to exploit it

As a side note, I included a "cursed" ring that made the wearer desire to give away half of his possessions (not including the ring itself). This was actually an item that functioned as designed by the Ring-Giver faction

Tequila Sunrise's picture
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Re: Redundant Factions, New Factions?

Ooh, I like the Jesters idea! I think I'll replace the anarchists with them. "Think outside the box" has much better long-term potential than "Rabble rabble rabble, down with everything!"

Jem
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Re: Redundant Factions, New Factions?

The GM who started my current campaign replaced the Bleak Cabal with the Dadaists. Everything is still meaningless, they still wear a lot of black, but they drink a lot more coffee and have a good deal more fun. If you call poetry slams fun.

Tequila Sunrise's picture
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Re: Redundant Factions, New Factions?

That made me laugh out loud. Which is bad when I'm at school.

I like the coffee and poetry slams, but I'll stick with the traditional faction name.

Tequila Sunrise's picture
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Re: Redundant Factions, New Factions?

I'm surprised how few opinions there seem to be here. Do so many planewalker.comers play post-FW? Or do you simply use stock factions as-written?

Also, does anyone know any likely hang-out sites for any of the PS devs? Are any of them known to post here?

Palomides's picture
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Re: Redundant Factions, New Factions?

This doesn't answer your questions but the issue I always have trouble balancing is the following:

If I reduce the number of factions too far, it makes the PCs feel like they are being forced into one of a few limited choices (assuming that I push them towards joining a faction)

If I increase the number of factions (or sects) too much, it seems to reduce the significance of all of them in the grand scheme of things and causes the ideas they support seem increasingly unimportant (e.g. if there were 100 factions, it would be hard to care about any of them as being all that important)

In my limited experience, the offical number is a little too high and a handful of the factions get overlooked 90% of the time (e.g. how often do people use the Sign of One?) But when I design things I actually like the idea of more factions to inspire ideas.

Tequila Sunrise's picture
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Re: Redundant Factions, New Factions?

True enough. I for one can't imagine playing a doomguard character, unless it was just for the combat bonus. ('Entropy is good'? Seriously, that's my motivation?)

I think there are a good number of factions, more or less, but I think it's more important that whatever factions do exist are memorable and distinct. I think I'll make an adventure out of knocking a faction or two off. Maybe the xaositects get into it with the mercykillers, and the party has to put both of them down. Yeah, that'll be fun. Smiling

Tim4488's picture
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Re: Redundant Factions, New Factions?

"Entropy is natural." There's three takes - entropy is natural and people trying to preserve the multiverse are wrong, entropy needs to be ACCELERATED, cause things to crumble. Entropy is natural, but the rate is just about right - stop those who take too many steps to make things static, but don't be extreme in accelerating it either, moderation is the way to go. Entropy is natural, but unnatural events have sped it out of control, slow down the entropy, pull it back to a more natural progression.

Currently have a player playing a moderate Doomguard Sorcerer. He's a lot of fun. (Well, moderate philosophically, not in other regards.)

Jem
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Re: Redundant Factions, New Factions?

I tend to treat the "sane" Doomguard as Buddhists. "Everything falls apart" means that component things are impermanent, and one who realizes this can free himself from attachments and struggle.

The standard Doomguard are just griefers.

Hyena of Ice's picture
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Re: Redundant Factions, New Factions?

Personally, I leave the factions as are and merely increase the number of sects into the dozens or hundreds. There is a bit of a difference between factions and sects, after all.
Though, the vast majority of sects would be plane-specific. Probably one of the biggest ones would be the anti-Doomguard sect (and I'm guessing their base of operations is that tower on Steam that nobody knows how to enter, while the other three towers have mostly been abandoned or only inhabited in secret)

The standard Doomguard are just griefers.
Some of them are probably like Tharizdun and believe that dissolution is the only way to escape suf-- oh, wait, that's Buddhism. Difference is that the Doomguard of course want to ultimately force that fate on everyone else. I think this would especially be popular for anyone who understands the role of petitioners on the Lower Planes.

So, in addition to what Tim said, I would add these motivations:

Tharizdunism: The multiverse is imperfect/corrupt/full of evil, and the only way to destroy that evil and protect souls for time immemorial is by destroying the multiverse, along with all evil, good, and neutrality.

Tragedy: Character's dead true love was evil, he/she (maybe evil or neutral as well) discovers the truth about the Lower Planes and the souls who end up there, decides to destroy the Multiverse in order to free his love from such suffering and a fate as something even more evil than she was in life.

Derranged Compassion: Character cannot condone the fact that suffering exists. Goal is to undo all creation and history in all the multiverse so that no entities will have ever suffered.

Revenge: I actually had Magus (anti-hero from the SNES JRPG Chrono Trigger) in a fic written as having such motivations:
Character is a misanthrope who lived a life of tragedy. Was born a human but, when humans unleashed an ancient evil via forbidden magic for their own selfish gain, he ends up raised by another race, one which he was taught as a human were evil. This race teaches him the exact same about humans. Eventually, he comes to realize there is no difference between the two or any other race, and despises all sentience as weak and stupid. Angry at the world, he desires to undo all history and creation for making him and those he loved suffer. When he invokes this destruction, he hopes to be the last to die, so that he can relish in the dissolution of all mankind. Also, dissolution is the only way to erase his pain and that of the few he loved, while it will be a punishment for those he hates. He absolutely DOES NOT want an afterlife, because it will not erase the suffering that he or those he cares for endured.

Obviously, all three motivations I highlighted involve some degree of insanity, but Tharizdunism, as I mentioned, seems particularly like a likely outcome for good-aligned characters who learn the truth about the origin of demons and devils. Realizing that even can never be vanquished due to a neverending supply of evil mortals, the subject realizes the best they can do is "undo" the very creation of such a "flawed" multiverse. This is most likely among good and neutral aligned characters who belonged to a religion or sect who believe that the world will be mostly but not entirely destroyed then reborn in perfection, such as Prime worshippers of Odin and Thor.

There, of course, is a fourth motivation:
Apocalyptic Hubris: Good or Neutral-aligned Character follows a church/faith/sect/what have you which claims the above (that the world will be destroyed then reborn in perfection and infinite benevolence) Character joins the Doomguard and takes a more "active" role in the hopes of speeding the armageddon process up, so that utopia can be born sooner.

Hyena of Ice's picture
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Re: Redundant Factions, New Factions?

Do so many planewalker.comers play post-FW? Or do you simply use stock factions as-written?

My understanding is that few play post FW because it's "too depressing" to have a faction-free Sigil plus whatever Vecna did to it.
I think this is a real shame however, as IMO there are far, far more adventure seeds and interesting plot twists available immediately post FW, as the factions have all poured entirely out into the planes where they have a strong foothold, and if Guide to the Ethereal and Inner Planes are any indicator (both written post FW), the natives of said planes are NOT happy about it.

I think, in particular, the Gaiaist outsiders and elementals would despise the factions (by Gaiaism I mean they view their plane as a sort of parent figure, living being, fate, god, or all four, and it is the duty of the reverent outsider/elemental to protect its mother/home and further its will. All but the loosest interpretations of this view/belief is incompatible with the majority of factions. This Gaiaist mentality among Outer and Inner planar indigenous natives is not the same as prime religion, as its followers don't necessarily view their plane as being a god-like entity, and on the other hand, all know that, no matter what the method of their 'birth'-- via petitioners, spontaneous creation, sexual reproduction, or division from another organism, that they were born from their home plane's essence. And of course, it is the view of many such natives that the will of their plane is to eventually expand/spread over/consume the entire multiverse.)

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Re: Redundant Factions, New Factions?

I prefer pre-FW not because it is less "depressing" so much as I think the existance of the factions is one of the things that makes Sigil unique from any other anonymous planar city. (Yes, the Lady is pretty darn unique too, but to keep her air of mystery, one can't pull her out to motivate plots like you can with the factions).

I imagine the designers could have played out Sigil in a number of ways (such as have angels/fiends/etc. being much more active or even combative in the streets of the city). Personally I philosophy clubs "with clubs" angle as it makes one actually think about what one's character truly believes in rather than just making it a big city that serves as yet another launching point for adventures (it does that too, but the factions add a philosophical/political adds a unique element)

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