Things I've noticed that are already on the table.
a. Factol Haskar will need to be given a bunch of expert levels. Or at least be statted out far beyond the looser rules conventions of 2e.
b. Factol Skall using a projection ability into Sigil is perhaps an epic spell of some kind.
Please put the name of the relevent Factols in your subject line. This is just an idea, but I think it might make things simpler.
On the other hand it makes a great topic for forumites who need stuff to talk about - right? 
Personally I went with "Big" because with a line like that how can you *not*. I nearly did a spit take on my keyboard when I saw that, gerz!
As many skills and abilities as he had in 2nd ed he would *have* to have serious expert levels in 3rd. Unlike in 2nd, where the rules were getting very fuzzy by the time PS came around, 3rd dosn't give stuff for free.
Oh, I didn't want to stat Skall because I want to fight him. I just wanted to make a little project out of it. He is rather dashingly cool, you must admit.
Anyway, I'll say it again here. Anyone know how to make an epic spell than can handle Skall's ability to project his image into Sigil?
I'm with jordarad on this one. NPCs should have minimal statting, and a deep background history, intricate motivations, long-term goals, etc. The Planescape writers were very good at conveying vast detail through prose instead of numbers. Additionally, it makes it more fun for the GM to read all the books because the mystery is preserved not just for the players but for the GM as well. This is what I call the "meta-chant". Things were left unsaid by the writers that even the GM didn't understand. And that's part of the fun. I don't like having everything statted out and explained to me in intricate detail. The edge of mystery and doubt is what inspires the mind.
Incidentally, jordarad, my portalseeker.com site has a collection of portals and gates and their gate-keys, if that's what you're looking for.
One problem with this view of not statting out NPCs: this is d20 not 2e. There's a rule for everything.
Sure it is a harder rules set. But it still has rule 0.
And that allows you to violate every game mechanic? More importantly, how do you show new players the power of a character?
Do they need to know the power of everyone they meet? It's most likely that the players can run around Sigil talking to all the factols and not know one way or the other whether or not you actually have stats for them.
And yes, rule 0 does let you violate every game mechanic. You're just supposed to have a good reason for doing so.
It's obviously pointless in trying to continue pointing this out, so this is the last time I'll write this:
New players interested in learning Planescape need a starting point in order to understand what's going on.
Just out of curiosity where can I find out what happened to all the factols?
Rhys -- Left Sigil and came back as an Advisor only in the government.
In a way this has given her a lot more power in the cage. She isn't wielding the power of a Factol that she once had, on the other hand she is the top advisor, and the blood who "saw" the Faction war coming on and got out of the way.
Skall -- Mazed or Flayed?
What if he is only in hiding. or got out of the maze? Was he confirmed mazed/flayed? Perhaps, he just no longer is able to use what before allowed him to progect into the city and is keeping a low profile. WHat if someone started to impersonate him inside the city?
Haskar -- Assasinated with no raising attempt being succesful.
Was this blood a petitioner of Sigil? What if he was mazed even after death? What if he was just brought back somewhere else? How good are the sources for his death?
Karan -- Mazed/Flayed?
Didn't I see him shoping in the night market? No because another berk saw him bubbing up in the next ward over. What if the factol was being impersonated? What if he managed to escape and it was an imposter that got mazed/flayed? Can the Lady be fooled like that? What if there was never a Karan and it was always just a few chaosmen using him as a plot device. What if there were many factols? What if it was tuesday?
Nylisia -- Mazed/Flayed/Other?
What happened to her? She'd be legal by now wouldn't she? hmm..?
I don't recall the properspellings or all of the factols right now. Please add answers questions or factols to this list.
See, the really interesting thing about Skall is this: how could he have been mazed (as it is supposed happened to him, like the other factols) when he doesn't spend most of his time in Sigil? Usually, he hangs out on the Negative Energy Plane in the faction citadel. Granted, the Lady has done things similar to this before (when killing Aoskar) but it is worth pointing out that there have been purported sightings of Skall since his mazing.
New players interested in learning Planescape need a starting point in order to understand what's going on.
Yes, they do. A timeline of events from the Great Upheval to the Faction War could easily let current and new players to this site figure out what the Sam Hill is happening in Sigil...
But just a friendly reminder...
Sigil is not Planescape.
*waits for the cries of "Blasphemy!!!" to die out*
The feel of the PS campign setting was not fostered by a single city with innumerable doors, nor was it focused completely on the struggles of two powerful groups of fiends, it wasn't even all about the points of groups of people who went by a common monniker of "Philosophers with Clubs".
I have always Believed that the PSCS is about Belief. The three Laws of the Planes govern everything, but it is the ideal of Belief that shapes and shifts the cosmos. In this one true law of PS, all others are voided and nulled. (Belief is rule #0 in my PS Campaigns.)
I am by no means a stat junkie. The main reason PS appealed to me some ten+ years ago is not due to the fact that it had powerful NPC's, Monsters, and Prestige Classes, it was the Story and the opportunity to travel and be ANYWHERE and ANYTHING. The fact that all that was limiting the Players in PS was their BELIEF was amazing and a welcome change to the RP world.
This setting appeals to a certain kind of gamer, which is why it was cancelled, IMO. Most of the gaming populace has not developped (matured) to this aspect yet, some may never.
I, personally, would prefer to attract the kind of gamer who is interested in Story, Opportunity, Character Development, and Belief; rather than one interested in Statistics, Epic Level Handbooks, Killing Dieties, and Obtaining Artifacts. I would much rather welcome new gamers into the Fold who have the idea of Opportunity for a Roleplaying Experience with PS, rather than someone who wishes to see how "cool" a CS is by the power of its NPCs.
An aside: I would much rather take my time and pick a handful of sweet, juicy ripe fruit, rather than spend my time gathering up those that have fallen off the tree because I'm too lazy to get a ladder. (I am also not adverse to waiting for some of the fruit to ripen, while making sure it gets plenty of sunlight and is not infested with bugs.)
A section on the main site for new players who have no idea what PS is would be a good way to foster new blood into this community. Written at a level so that a middle or high school student (when most of us started playing RPG's, I assume) could comprehend it would be ideal.
An introduction to THE PLANES and BELIEF is what is warranted, not just the Cage. I feel that Sigil, its Factions (well, not right now), and Power Struggles are important, but they are not everything.
Which is more useful to new players:
Pentar's stat block, or
A few paragraphs describing her, especially goals and motivations?
Now, I'm not saying factols (and other important NPCs) shouldn't have stats, just that they don't necessarily need them. You talk much about retaining the 'flavour' of 2e PS, and yet clamour the loudest about everything having stats and being properly crunchy. The rules of any game system, and the stats of all characters therein, are second to the story, and must therefore serve that story.
Oh, and I really feel the best thing for new blood to the setting is to read the original material (or play Torment, or play in a PS game run by someone who knows what they're doing - or at least read the original material). It's not inaccessible - you can buy the .pdfs online, that's what I did. You can get five or six Planescape .pdfs for the price of one silly 3.5e book - which is the better deal?
Oh events concering what really happened to any one of the Factols could spawn a good adventure.
I know in Shemmies game we had to rescue Nylisia from slavery and we met the former Factol of the Incantephers.
Also a factol Karan mask makes a great gift for any Xaositec.
Pentar's stat block, or
A few paragraphs describing her, especially goals and motivations?
Now, I'm not saying factols (and other important NPCs) shouldn't have stats, just that they don't necessarily need them. You talk much about retaining the 'flavour' of 2e PS, and yet clamour the loudest about everything having stats and being properly crunchy. The rules of any game system, and the stats of all characters therein, are second to the story, and must therefore serve that story.
You need both stats and background info. See, in order for new players to understand the degree to which someone is committed to a cause or how much they're hated by someone, you need statististical data to show the price these individuals have paid in order for the background and projected goals of the character to really stand out. The DM needs something to work with in both departments in order to understand the impact of an NPC or something like the factions and how it can be utilized in his campaign.
To be honest, I'm not fond of d20's power-driven system. Be that as it may, I work with the system because that's the medium of the new D&D. In order to make the rules concepts of one edition to fit in another, you have to stat things out. If not for yourself, then for those you plan on sharing the setting with who don't participate in your campaign so they have some idea what you're talking about. You can always apply Rule Zero on your own material that you really don't want to follow.
Pentar's stat block, or
A few paragraphs describing her, especially goals and motivations?
Now, I'm not saying factols (and other important NPCs) shouldn't have stats, just that they don't necessarily need them. You talk much about retaining the 'flavour' of 2e PS, and yet clamour the loudest about everything having stats and being properly crunchy. The rules of any game system, and the stats of all characters therein, are second to the story, and must therefore serve that story.
You need both stats and background info. See, in order for new players to understand the degree to which someone is committed to a cause or how much they're hated by someone, you need statististical data to show the price these individuals have paid in order for the background and projected goals of the character to really stand out. The DM needs something to work with in both departments in order to understand the impact of an NPC or something like the factions and how it can be utilized in his campaign.
To be honest, I'm not fond of d20's power-driven system. Be that as it may, I work with the system because that's the medium of the new D&D. In order to make the rules concepts of one edition to fit in another, you have to stat things out. If not for yourself, then for those you plan on sharing the setting with who don't participate in your campaign so they have some idea what you're talking about. You can always apply Rule Zero on your own material that you really don't want to follow.
Uhm Bob, Xan. This is a thread about the effects of D20 and post faction war on the Factols not really one about how we need rules for new players. Could you take this to another thread? Please and thanks.
Hey Ryhs what would you do to re-intro Factol Skall back to sigil? Like if you were to run a game, campaign or one shot, around that idea what would be a quick plot synopsis?
Gerzel: Well, I'm not saying I necessarily would re-introduce Skall, but there are ways it could be done. Maybe a group of Dustmen break him out. Maybe he was never really mazed in the first place (he doesn't live in Sigil, after all, and Rhys avoided mazing, it is supposed, by being out of town). Maybe he's influencing things from his maze, using his project image. Maybe he kills himself and reappears next to his phylactery in the Dusmen NEP citadel (a stretch, I know).
And to all: Stat blocks do not preclude roleplaying. Say what you want about encouraging certain styles of play by facilitating crazy campaigns driven around the idea of killing every factol, but there's no reason to think that this kind of thing would happen simply because the factols have stats. It'd happen anyway, but at least this way we're all playing with the same factols. Plus, other people playing "for the wrong reasons" doesn't make anyone else have less fun in a different campaign.
The factol's aren't omnipotent. They have limits. Those limits are clearly defined in the stat block. Thus, statting gods=bad idea. Statting factols=fine. Let us not forget that 2e had a fully-statted factol for each faction, plus high-ups (fine, no Anarchist or Indep factol, lay off) and nobody accuses 2e of pandering to powergaming.
But really, I just wanted to make a little project out of submitting Skall to Planewalker as an NPC, and while it'd be easy to just rewrite his bio from the Factol's Manifesto, I thought I'd update his stats to 3.5 while I was at it.
But really, I just wanted to make a little project out of submitting Skall to Planewalker as an NPC, and while it'd be easy to just rewrite his bio from the Factol's Manifesto, I thought I'd update his stats to 3.5 while I was at it.
Good point, but I'd still say he can't progect into Sigil anymore, just because of the Lady's whim. Before he had special reason so that his faction would have a leader representative. He might be too powerful to enter the city normally so the lady might have let him project in to keep the balance.
I dunno.
Well the Dustmen can't just carry on like the other factions do. Skall's the only factol they've ever had. No one even knows how long he's been leading them.
I really like having the stats for any character in front of me. While the whole storyline and background aspect is the reason I enjoy Planescape, having stats and rules gives me an idea of what this character could do.
I know that I would never run a campaign where the PC's goal is to kill Tiamat, but I have the stats for that crazy dragon anyway and I find them amusing 
Having the stat block doesn't tarnish the flavor of the game at all in my opinion. I want to know if Factol X has a higher charisma than Factol Y for example, because if the PCs ever interact with them, I figure that would be the most importat stat at first (then Wisdom and Intelligence). I dont' want the stats for fighting so much (Str, Dex, and Con), but I want the ones that actually matter for this being who is in charge of an organization of storts.
The only things I am agains having a stat block for are the Powers and the Lady of Pain. That just seems really goofy to me. No character is ever going to get the chance to fight a Power and win. And the Lady is just "beyond the Powers" as far as I'm concerned.
I hear that in the 3e book that details the Powers (Deities and Demi-gods I think?), they actually give stats for them, one of the reasons I've never picked up that book (the other being that I have On Hallowed Ground . . .).
Hence, my reasoning for having everything laid out in rules that make sense....
As for Deities & Demigods, it has a lot of material that can be used concerning pantheons and how the gods affect the lives of mortals. A great deal of the book can be used without the need to refer to statistics.
Is the Deities and Demigod's book significantly different from the On Hallowed Ground book? Other than in the stats being included that is.
Yes, where as OHG gives some information on the pantheons covered and the where each power is located on the planes, the Deities & Demigods book has information for creating your own pantheons from the way mortals worship to the relationships the deities have with mortals, and how to ensure you have every race, class, and alignment covered by your pantheon.
What if Skall was like the Dali Lama. Except he was always replaced seamlessly before. The faction war came as a surprise and meant that the next skall was not found amidst the chaos. Could give an adventuring party quite a time to track the new Skall down.
Just an idea
What if Skall was like the Dali Lama. Except he was always replaced seamlessly before. The faction war came as a surprise and meant that the next skall was not found amidst the chaos. Could give an adventuring party quite a time to track the new Skall down.
Just an idea
The Dustmen really don't need Skall to tell them what to do. Honestly, if you look at the faction in terms of their primary job in Sigil, they really don't need a factol to tell them how to dispose of the dead. With the plane of fire no longer located in the Mortuary, it becomes a problem in the sense that they need to find a new way to dispose of the bodies, or animate them all...
The Dustmen really have this idea of a pilgrimmage through existence. Skall was like a shepherd to them. He gathered the Dustmen in and set them on their way. Where other factions would punish wayward members, the Dustmen have the problem of members who fall to the side of the road while on the journey, and they need guidance. Skall was that guidance, being the oldest one of them. He wasn't important for sentimental purposes (nothing is sentimental for the Dustmen) but he definitely served to unite the faction, which never had any real problems with division within the ranks. Skall had vision.
And Gerzel, the idea of a seamlessly-replaced leader who appears omnipotent was already used by Primus and the modrons, so it might make for a tough sell. Plus, I think Skall is more freaky if he really is that old and really has all the power that he seems to have.
And Gerzel, the idea of a seamlessly-replaced leader who appears omnipotent was already used by Primus and the modrons, so it might make for a tough sell. Plus, I think Skall is more freaky if he really is that old and really has all the power that he seems to have.
Ok so goodbye dolly
And Gerzel, the idea of a seamlessly-replaced leader who appears omnipotent was already used by Primus and the modrons, so it might make for a tough sell. Plus, I think Skall is more freaky if he really is that old and really has all the power that he seems to have.
I never said that he was useless, what I've been to say was that it is not necessary for the faction to exist without him. While he is the only factol that they had, the Dustmen are not mindless. Therefore, I feel that they would be able to function without him in terms of the way the Factol's Manifesto illustrates a member of the faction whose sole function seems to be helping wayward Dustmen to stay on the path.
(double post)
Zach's 3.0 factions and factols (not PW.com-compatible, but hey)
Re Skall's epic "project into Sigil from NEP" spell: I know I wrote it up somewhere, but can't seem to find it. Oh the check DC was probably off anyway...
I vote for stat lines instead of stat blocks. "Factol Pentar (CN fem hum pla Rgr16/Ftr4)" is enough for me.
I personally have never liked high-ups having their stats blocked off. I prefer the small text (Male/Planar Dwarf/0 level sage/Fraternity of Order) to a huge write-up on the characters.
One of the great moves by PS writers in my opinion was the purposeful lack of inclusion with the Lady's Statistics and scores. ANY statistics and scores. A good friend of mine and I debated the LoP's alignment numerous times when the Planar Handbook came out.
I don't like limiting powerful NPCs to stat blocks and scores. This seems like an invite for powergaming PCs to go "Factolkillin'", just like many characters I have known in the more PG'in crowd to look at a book on dieties and figure out which god's Avatars their uber-characters can kill this session.
I understand that many people slather and fawn over the idea of statted high-ups. Personally, I'd prefer a more common job set for flavor, like a listing of useable and known gates and their keys throughout Sigil, rather than... "Oooh, Pentar has THIS feat, check it out!" I'd rather the folks at PW spend their time with more flavorful, common items that will bring more users to the fold and give a more full look to the planes, rather than a statistical block figuring out the abilities of many high-ups that were killed and/or mazed in the cannon timeline years ago.
Unless the statistics are for a character the PCs in a common, everyday campaign may have a chance of meeting (I have run PS campaigaigns for 6 years and in all the adventures, a PC has only talked to a Factol ONCE, and combat was never an option) and would have a good reason to become involved in an altercation with (even as a teammate), I think leaving these issues up to the individual DM's will be a better use of time for the staff here.
*rant over, end of line*