Questions about Pandemonium

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Palomides's picture
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Questions about Pandemonium

I was re-examing Pandemonium as a possible site for a set of adventures and as it often does, a closer examination led me to a lot of questoin for which I did not have answers

*Unexplained Oddities: (I realize this set of questions probably will not have answers)
All of Pandemonium has directional gravity – except (all or part of) the layer of Phlegethon. Why does this exception exist?

The tunnels on the layer of Cocytus bear the marks of having been hand-chiseled. Any legends/rumors on why this infinite layer was “carved” full of tunnels? Is the work still in progress today (and if so, where does the excess rock go)?

Howler’s Crag is a spot upon which one can speak and it will be carried to any person throughout the multiverse. Who built Howler’s Crag? Was the point where one could talk across the planes found and then the tower built to reach the spot; or is the spot contingent on the tower being built? Or was this phenomenon a random result of another goal?

*Populace:
Why do the Bleak Cabal and other mortals live here? There are no resources (officially); what’s left that would make someone move here? (Yes, there are those seeking to go hidden but aren’t there other less madness-inducing places in the multiverse where one could hide or be sad sacks?)
One of the few examples I could come up with are cities formed at location near two or more planar gates making it a trading spot; but even then, most of their resources would have to be imported

Alternatively, cities can form near the realms of the few gods residing here (but would most people want to visit these gods? They do have cadres of true believers but I imagine the majority of these deities are appeased more than worshipped, so unless these sites are filled with petitioners, it seems like their populations would be pretty small)
-Auril – FR goddess of brutal cold
-Dirrinka – covetous derro god
-Erythnul – GH god of envy, malice and slaughter
-Ho Masubi – Destructive Japanese god of fire
-Hruggek – bugbear diety
-Loki – Norse trickster god
-Talos – FR god of storms and other forms of destruction
-Unseelie Court and the dark fey goddess, the Queen of Air & Darkness
-Zeboim – DL god of strife and rage(?)

*Survival:
Do the Bleak Cabal and others have techniques/items that reduce the insanity-inducing effects of the plane? E.g. special ear wax (are there Pandemonian bees?), native fungus, etc.

Do the Bleak Cabal and others have techniques/items that keep the insane wights away? (Are the wights canon?)
Are the wights petitioners? If not, where do these undead come from?

What do the Bleak Cabal and others use for light? Or do they adapt around it (e.g. mole vision)?

Since verbal communications have to be shouted and seldom carries far, do most the permanent residents develop other means of communicaiton (e.g. sign language, telepathy, etc.)

*Possible Adventures:
Can (or has) someone (like a Godsman) found the secret to "at will" planewalking from the winds of the Harmonica? If so, how does this powerful ability (quite possibly in a now insane individual) change things on the planes?

Lots of interesting NPCs: paranoid or dispirited angels, depressed fiends, rogue modrons with OCD, etc.

*Rumors/Crazy Theories:
Since the gravity of Pandemonium is always “down” (below one’s feet), has this produced a rumor/theory that Sigil (with its own directional gravity) is a cross-section of the largest of Pandemonium tunnels cut out and taken away to the top of the Spire?

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Re: Questions about Pandemonium

Palomides wrote:
Why do the Bleak Cabal and other mortals live here? There are no resources (officially); what’s left that would make someone move here? (Yes, there are those seeking to go hidden but aren’t there other less madness-inducing places in the multiverse where one could hide or be sad sacks?)

Traditionally, madness goes hand in hand with genius, creativity and insight. That could be one of the driving forces behind people seeking out this plane.

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Re: Questions about Pandemonium

Pandemonium is the plane of madness; Ysgard is the plane of inspiration. One is the negative reflection of the other.

I think many parts of Pandemonium were once part of other planes, once places bright and inspiring until they became sick and demented and fell into madness. That's why different layers behave by different rules; they were once parts of different planes, but they've now drifted together, still somewhat fragmented and disassociated, never attaining enough rationality to fully congeal.

Cocytus was created by primal gods or titans of creation who became so feverishly engrossed in their work that their original goals were forgotten and only the obsessive-compulsive act of creating remained. The earliest ones were carvers of stone, wood, and bone, while later ones forged from metal and more exotic substances. They didn't all originate in a single pantheon or myth cycle, but they have all fallen into the same illness, and Cocytus is a tangled, twisting fusion of all the diseased and fallen demiurges, still creating, unable to realize that their time is done. Howler's Crag is one artifact among many that these creators have made in their madness; the Harmonica is another, as are the severed heads that the bugbear god Hruggek discovered, and the ruins in Talos's realm; there is not necessarily any purpose to it that a sane entity would understand. The Artifacto-Elemental Plane of Pipes from Dark Roads &Golden Hells may be an outgrowth of Cocytus's tunnels, winding through saner planes on its interminable journey.

The Bleak Cabal congregates in Pandemonium because it superbly illustrates the truth in their philosophy, that all is madness and there is no inherent meaning to Creation ("a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.") Pandemonium mostly only collects Bleakers who have fallen furthest into nihilism and shadow. Those who concentrate on finding their own purpose find other planes to spread their gospel. Pandemonium is associated with the Bleak Cabal because no other major faction cares to claim it, but that doesn't mean that there are that many Bleakers there; there are other places where saner Bleakers go.

Many inhabitants of Pandemonium were banished there by enemies, or drifted there on their own as they fell into mental illness. Few go there by choice. There are secrets, insights, and power that can only be found in madness; there are other places to go for secrets and power, but if you're looking in Pandemonium then you've probably run out of other options, or other options are not for you. You look in madness because it is in your nature to look in madness, either after trying other alternatives or, for some, because madness was your first choice.

"Resources" in the sense that inhabitants of the Material Plane would think of them are mostly irrelevant on the Outer Planes. Planars find other sources, of sustenance; they learn to feed off of fever dreams, secrets, hallucinations, mutilated corpses, things scrawled on the walls with chalk or blood, their own shadows, things they hear in the winds, guilt, the venom of serpents, or tormented thoughts of thwarted vengeance. To those who have truly made Pandemonium their home, they find it a place rich in resources beyond all imagination, at least beyond all sane imagination.

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Re: Questions about Pandemonium

Palomides wrote:
*Rumors/Crazy Theories: Since the gravity of Pandemonium is always “down” (below one’s feet), has this produced a rumor/theory that Sigil (with its own directional gravity) is a cross-section of the largest of Pandemonium tunnels cut out and taken away to the top of the Spire?

Before she had the Mazes, the Lady cast out her enemies to the Throne of Blades in Agathion. Also there's a possibility it's somehow connected to Phoenix..

Also isn't Miska trapped there, it's possible that the plane's winds are from the war with the Vaati.

I did not know about the wights, probably from the Queen of Air and Darkness.

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Re: Questions about Pandemonium

Thanks for the responses, especially the semi-poetic details from VanWormer (I like the idea of forgotten creator gods continuing on for all eternity with a form of divine OCD)

I'll have to think about the redefinition of "resources" some more as I can't imagine any "standard" creatures surviving on fevered dreams, hallucinations, guilt, etc. I can easily see a unique form of monster or a rare individual doing so but I have trouble picturing enough of these individuals to form one of the few cities said to exist on the plane.
Other than that (or in addition to that), it seems that only the already insane willingly subject themselves to the insanity of this plane.

My interest stems from an unexpected (to me) effect of the plane on my PCs. While they are quite willing to venture to the Abyss and deal with the inherent dangers there (not that they don't wisely try to avoid what dangers they can and get out quickly). But they are quite skittish about venturing into Pandemonium or the Grey Wastes where the environment itself erodes them.

I don't want to throw away the qualities of these planes (as man vs. environment is a challenge that should be dealt with occassionally) but at the same time, I do want to let a well researched party be able to mitigate these dangers. Much like dressing appropriately can make treking in the frigid cold less arduous, I think I will let my players prep a little for Pandemonim. Then I can entertain myself by removing their protections (after they get complacent and deep into Pandemonium) so then there can be some urgency as they try to escape before there are too adversely affected

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Re: Questions about Pandemonium

In Pandemonium, you're left with the same sort of issues that haunt living in the Underdark. I suspect that there are probably thriving forests of mushrooms or other Underdark'esque flora scattered here and there and these would probably provide for a lot of the plant-type food sources. Alternatively, or in addition to, there may be a great deal of hunting that goes on, from vermin (rats, insects, and unmentionable small things) to larger game. A street vendor selling crunchy spiders-on-a-stick would be right at home in of the plane's cities. Likewise with other seemingly distasteful concoctions (rat's brain soup, salted flies, bonemeal pancakes, various putrid meats, etc).

Sure, there's likely to be the occasional food caravan that will provide "real" food, but it's likely to seem extravagant or suspicious ("That's not what food looks/smells/tastes like! What's wrong with it?!") This is probably more the case in places outside the larger cities. On the other hand, I imagine, though, that there's probably a pretty strong alcohol trade that occurs across the plane, to the point where I could see it becoming as good as currency. ("I have a bottle of firewine straight from Faerun. Two shots for the information we need?")

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Re: Questions about Pandemonium

Mortals who live on the planes for generations evolve and adapt. Some of these adaptations are canonical, at least within the context of 2nd edition: an ability to sense the distinctive glow of a portal, a vulnerability to summoning effects. Eventually you end up with true planar races like githzerai and ruvoka.

One way they might evolve is to find ways to derive sustenance from unconventional sources. This could be as simple as adding "feeds on fear" as a supernatural ability to their stat block (though what qualifies as "supernatural" on the planes is open to debate), or it can be more complex and interesting. The culture could have a caste of specialized spellcasters (like the githyanki hr'ak'nir) with a class or prestige class allowing them to walk into the minds of others and bring useful things out. Or they could trade with petitioners or other races with similar abilities. Eating the fruits of madness comes at a stiff price, of course, even if they are given to you for free. Regardless, Pandemonium has extraordinary native resources, none of which are mundane or sane. Merchants should be shipping Pandemonic goods far and wide.

Anything you can do to distinguish Pandemonium from the Underdark will improve the setting. There's nothing wrong with the Underdark, but there's little point in introducing an outer plane that your players will just confuse with it. The outer planes are the lands of the gods and the dead, made of abstract ideas rather than gross matter, and they should feel like nothing on the Prime. A group of prime colonists might worry about how to ship bushels of wheat to their settlement for the first generation, but eventually they're going to learn to function more like natives or die out. This isn't a lunar colony in an Isaac Asimov story, it's a story about mystics and arcane adventurers transitioning from a relatively mundane existence to life in the lands of myth and fable.

There shouldn't be very many mortal settlements on the outer planes anyway. It's still fundamentally the realm of the dead and the home of fiends and celestials. Even in superficially lush planes like Arborea mortals are an aberration, an unnatural intrusion into lands they were never meant to walk while they lived, and they should find it increasingly difficult to survive there while remaining mortal.

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Re: Questions about Pandemonium

Double post, sadly.

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Re: Questions about Pandemonium

As I said above, I'm torn about how residents go about finding sustenance on certain planes; but I wholeheartedly agree with VanWormer that the planes should have a distinct atmosphere from what PCs have experienced elsewhere (which was one of the reasons I really liked the Wild West take on the Outlands which would otherwise just seem to me like rolling fields with a large sprie in the center).

So I agree that I'd probably want to minimize the traditional Underdark ecosystem present (Although I could see a settlement of drow adapting relatively well to Pandemonium, but I would make this an exception rather than the norm. Similarly, I could see more of the Chthulic horrors of the Underdark - aboleths, etc. being more common here than they might be in the Underdark)

Fortunately, I think that Pandemonium has enough to make it unique - the maddening winds, the way it sucks light and heat, the threat of insanity, etc. Nonetheless, I appreciate the attempts to to provide some sort of possibilities for the limited ecosystem here

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Re: Questions about Pandemonium

While these aren't questions, I did come up with the following ideas for locations in Pandemonium that might hopefully inspire some ideas (I believe I came up with these on my own, but if I'm stealing and don't remember, I apologize)

-Aarovore: a living tunnel which absorbs persons (technically a stretch of “living wall” that lines a stretch of tunnel but can travel). The tunnel is insane.

-Anonymous: a city where everyone wants to remain unknown. Magic aura shields all of them from divination. Residents often get violent if someone starts prying into their histories. Names are only a method of pointing blame and causing strife. If someone comes looking for someone, the visitor is likely to be roughed up, thrown out or killed. It is considered bad form to introduce oneself. Once names are overlooked, everyone can get on with more important business. You came here for a reason, and so did everyone else, so respect their right and they'll do the same. A master thief in the heart of the town can grant new identity. It is speculated by some that this thief has uses for those discarded identities, and might sell them to others.

-Brainstorm: a small town where various sages and wizards congregate. The combined focus of mental activity in the area results in furious winds and lightning storms. Those who aren’t driven insane often gain insights into various problems that had previously been unsolvable.

-Fragmentation: a city in Pandemonium where all seem sane but all suffer multiple personality disorders and they all shift at once into the personalities of the others (e.g. Citizen X takes Citizen Y’s old personality who takes Citizen Z’s). Most of the town is old, frail or ugly. If a young, strong or handsome individual arrive, the citizens try to detain him or her in the hopes that one of them will get the improved body at next jump and can then escape with their new physique (the one hope for the PC is that the unlucky residents that didn’t get the upgrade will try to detain the resident currently in the PC’s body in the hopes that they will win the desired body in the next jump)
When the PCs arrive, they might be surprised by things like the brawny fighter’s mind being trapped in the frail mage’s body. The change can be permanent or it might keep switching until a full circuit is made and all have been in the body of the other. Monsters might also be affected, resulting in things like the mind of a raving troll (“SMASH!”) in tiny kobold. Force PCs to deal with odd situation. E.g. the quiet mage now must take charge and defend. The bossy fighter is now defenseless and dependent

-Keuvun Ya'ar: town ruined by a mad solar aasimon named Dannith the Mad. He fell in love with a succubus that he rescued from a demon. In his love, he viewed her as a helpless victim and tried to bring her back to Mt. Celestia in order to wed her. He ended up killing several angelic being that tried to drive off the unrepentant devil. Later when she turned against him, he realized what he had done and has been gripped with intense grief for his rash actions. He is now insane but believes that by saving the souls in this town, he will gain redemption. His mad goals shift from day to day; but the apathetic residents don't seem to care.

-Prash’s Folly: a gambling den run by fiends from Gehenna. In this place, those who are hard on their luck can wager slivers of their remaining sanity

-Repast: a town where everyone is unusually calm and sane. It is named after an obelisk in the center of town that draws away the negative emotions. However, many agents of good have an aversion to the plinth and wonder what it is doing with the stored emotions?

-“The Madlands”: an area of tunnels burrowed through to create a terrain one would describe as badlands (hence the pun). However it is also an area that causes alter egos/multiple personalities to manifest in people (hence the other piece of the pun). Some effects seen here include:
*An area where the afflicted person takes on a second personality with same alignment but otherwise opposite in behavior. (E.g. if the PC is shy then the alternate personality is bold; if the PC is prim and proper, the alternative personality is crude and vulgar; etc. Apply penalties or bonuses based on how well they act this out – the more outrageously played, the better)
*An area where the afflicted person takes on the opposite alignment but in an exaggerated cartoony way (E.g. a paladin turns into a mustache-twirling villain with a maniacal laugh; the greedy thief turns into the cliché hippie that wants to share the world)
*An area where the afflicted person believes himself to be of a different age (e.g. the fighter turns into a lisping child that wants to play tag or the thief turns into a grumpy old man with aches and pains who is always complaining about things – especially those “young whipper-snappers”)
*Area that induces a “creature complex” where the person thinks he is a creature or monster (E.g. the cleric suddenly believes she is a magical unicorn and will nuzzle up to another PC to try to get a sugar cube.)
*An area where the afflicted person thinks he is a figure from legend (E.g. the henchman starts giving orders because he now thinks he is Conan or Gandalf) Or perhaps when the PC spots a woman, he suddenly thinks he is a cartoony Don Juan [or Pepe LePew if you prefer]
*An area where the afflicted person takes on a personality with an emotional extreme (E.g. imagine a frail wizard suddenly going into “Hulk Smash!” mode and pounding on doors expecting them to shatter and making “huge leaps” [actually just hops] to travel about)
*Another possibility is an area that induces a form of “personality” amnesia. The affected person basically becomes a blank slate that is extremely suggestible towards a new one (E.g. if another PC says “I wish there were some way to cure him” then the afflicted PC suddenly thinks he is a doctor and starts trying to take everyone’s temperature and look down their throats until another suggestion gets made – note that saying “I wish Gus would act like Gus” won’t have any effect and attempts to reset the afflicted person’s personality just by describing their old behavior shouldn’t work well)
In all of these cases, the alter ego could be permanent (until cured), or it could switch back and forth based on time (e.g. one personality in the morning, another in the evening) or could be triggered by an item or event (e.g. seeing a river or getting angry might trigger a personality shift)
In this plane of madness, perhaps an afflicted person might gain illusionary powers similar to what he believes he has (E.g. a man who thinks he is a blink dog might APPEAR to have the ability to blink about)

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Re: Questions about Pandemonium

I'd rather toss out ideas and have them shot down than to put them out there and be left hanging. Rip, you make a great point, and it's something that I suppose I keep forgetting to keep in mind when I consider the Outer Planes. These really are the places of myth and legend, and for exotic as the Underdark might be, it's still a mortal place.

Palomides, I suppose there's a question that needs to be asked: What exactly is it that you're wanting your players and the PCs to get out of a trip to Pandemonium? It is just bragging rights/sightseeing, or is there something more? Knowing the nature of the trip, it might become a bit easier to frame up the sorts of experiences they're likely to encounter.

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Re: Questions about Pandemonium

Wicke wrote:
What exactly is it that you're wanting your players and the PCs to get out of a trip to Pandemonium? It is just bragging rights/sightseeing, or is there something more?

Good question. But they honest answer is that I'm not sure just yet.
It dawned on me that my players hadn't had too many outing to Pandemonium (combined with the fact that the place seems to make my PCs uncomfortable) so I felt like it was time to have them explore a new environment and get out of their comfort zone.

I can easily use one of the standard tropes to visit a plane (e.g. rescue someone, find someone/something with value or special knowledge, etc.) but in my effort to make the experience unique from their experiences on other planes (and Prime locations) I've been wracking my brain for the tangible ways that the themes and effects of madness might inspire and horrify them.

My current plan of attack is lanch a mini-campaign on the plane. I'll first lure them in with a seeming short-term goal (like those mentioned above) then give them a semi-secure launching point (probably Madhouse) where the dangers of the plane are somewhat mitigated (still haven't decided on the means of protection from the winds yet), then once they feel somewhat secure and get them deep into the plane (probably with the promise of some powerful bit of knowledge heard in the winds at the deeper levels), then I'll take away their safeguards and give them a sense of panic as they try to fight off insanity as they search for an escape route.

If they play well, they should be rewarded with their new secret but they should feel that they very nearly paid too much for it. And if they play poorly, the penalty should be obvious

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Re: Questions about Pandemonium

In the Shivering Isles expansion for Oblivion, you're taken to what amounts to a demi-plane of the daedric lord of Madness. The place is divided into two aspects of madness. One is dark, gloomy and paranoid-feeling. The other is bright, colorful and manic. I mention this because maybe you could present the PCs with a similarly bright and manic realm on Pandemonium. Give it a carnival/circus atmosphere, such that bright lights and loud sounds keep the nature of the plane at bay for as long as you're within the realm's borders. It would nominally be a softer entrance into the plane, though in reality it would be just as dangerous. Fiends could run the show and have ways of capturing the delight and manic pleasure any residents or visitors were experiencing. Or go with whatever flavor you prefer.

Bring them in via a Sensate friend/ally who caught wind of the locale and wants to visit, but doesn't want to travel there alone. You could then set the place up as a sort of safe haven within the plane. The kicker is that, once the PCs come to rely on the place, it slips away to a new location and leaves the PCs behind, along with any other mortal residents.

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Re: Questions about Pandemonium

ripvanwormer wrote:
I think many parts of Pandemonium were once part of other planes, once places bright and inspiring until they became sick and demented and fell into madness. That's why different layers behave by different rules; they were once parts of different planes, but they've now drifted together, still somewhat fragmented and disassociated, never attaining enough rationality to fully congeal.

I was reviewing some of the old posts and started thinking about this again. I was trying to imagine an area that went collectively mad and drifted over to Pandemonium. This would also provide another excuse for residents on the plane as the residents may not realize/believe that they aren't on their original plane (and it is often times difficult to change the opinion of someone who is mad and doesn't realize/accept it)

But tis idea leads me to ask, what group would make an ideal candidates to move to the Plane of Madness? Ysgardians overcome with battle rage? Outlanders that survived a psionic attack from mind flayers? Bytopian gnomes who become obsessed with their inventions? Stubborn Arcadians who become over-obsessed with their goals?
I seem to be coming up with a lot more candidates from the Lawful side of the Wheel but maybe pushing too hard in one direction catapults you to the other extreme

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Re: Questions about Pandemonium

Palomides wrote:
I was reviewing some of the old posts and started thinking about this again. I was trying to imagine an area that went collectively mad and drifted over to Pandemonium. This would also provide another excuse for residents on the plane as the residents may not realize/believe that they aren't on their original plane (and it is often times difficult to change the opinion of someone who is mad and doesn't realize/accept it)
Hey, it's been a while since I posted here, but I wanted to chime in...

I think this is the right direction to head in - a quest which requires the PCs spend several days or weeks or even months in Pandemonium so the full effects of the plane's maddening winds can sink in. Take a town the PCs are sympathetic toward (e.g. If you've got some elves then use a chunk of Arvandor), plunge it into Pandemonium, then send them there to (a) discover why the town shifted, and (b) shift it back by infiltrating the mad populace to uncover a hidden menace without too much collateral damage.

Btw, did a spiritual race native to Pandemonium ever appear in the books? I mean the same way bateau came from Baator, yugoloths from the Gray Waste ,etc.?

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Re: Questions about Pandemonium

Thanks for the input (as I had been scared that I was dredging up a topic that only interested myself)

I don't believe there was ever an official "native" race for the plane and even if there are a few, none have stuck in the public awareness like modrons, slaad, yugoloths, etc.did for their respective planes.
I put faers (I must have the name wrong since I'm not finding it online - but unworldy monsters that generate intense fear in the minds of their victims) as they seemed a good fit to more cerebral influences of this plane

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