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Questions about the pact between Gith and Tiamat

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Thu, 2010-11-25 13:42
#1
Palomides
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Questions about the pact between Gith and Tiamat

Day 2 of my "unanswered questions":

From the history of the githyanki:
The original githyanki wizardress, Vlaakith, counseled Gith to become allies with Tiamat. Gith goes on the mission, never to return; but a red dragon consort of Tiamat arrives claims Gith has placed Vlaakith in command, sealing the pact between the Children of Gith and red dragonkind. Vlaakith’s line has ruled ever since

OK, so here are the nagging questions I have on this one:
-Did Vlaakith lead Gith into a trap? Seems implied. But perhaps Gith went willingly for the good of her people. Since its ancient history, it may not matter; that is unless an usurper or the "reborn Gith" wants to gain support against the lich-queen
(Depending on if you still have her in power)

-What do you think Tiamat got out of the deal? This is the one that really bugs me. I can see the huge benefits the githyanki got out of the deal; but I can't see much that Gith could offer that would interest a power like Tiamat (unless he helped take out some power base of Marduk or Bahamut).
Do they two have common enemies that I don't know of?
Or was it Vlaakith that made the bargain and Gith was just part of the payment?
Was it actually a pact between Gith or Vlaakith with the head of JUST the red dragons (and not Tiamat). Perhaps this red dragon proxy was trying to make a power play
Maybe the red dragon got busted and the servitude to the githyanki was Tiamat's punishment?

-Wild idea: Does “Children of Gith” imply that the githzerai can also use the services of the red dragons? If so, are the githerzai unaware of the power they could command?

I realize the answer is propably that Charles Stross thought the idea of his new species riding red dragons into battle was cool, and he didn't put any more explanation into it. But I'm curious what some resolution are for this

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Thu, 2010-11-25 15:58
#2
ripvanwormer
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Re: Questions about the pact between Gith and Tiamat

Well, Charles Stross gave the githyanki red dragons, but the idea of a pact between Gith and Tiamat was Monte Cook's.

My idea was that Tiamat traded Gith on to Ilsensine in exchange for a favor, and Ilsensine implanted a divine tadpole in Gith's living body, creating the god Maanzecorian. Only when Maanzecorian was recently killed by Tenebrous was Gith's soul finally freed and able to be reborn.

A recent 4e adventure in the online Dungeon went into much more detail on the pact and its outcome. There, Gith has been trapped in Dis all this time. Tiamat was unhappy about the bargain she got, but the pact ended with the death of Vlaakith's last descendant. She renegotiated it on much more favorable terms, essentially gaining control of the githyanki race.

According to Dragon #377:

Quote:
With little choice, Gith journeyed to the Nine Hells and there met with Ephelomon. Dispater acted as the mediator and observer. Ephelomon offered to send a wing of red dragons to aid the githyanki in exchange for the githyanki’s assistance should Tiamat require it. To cement their pact, Ephelomon would forge a scepter to give Gith dominion over the dragons. Before they could finalize the terms, Dispater suggested to Ephelomon if he would entrust so many dragons to the githyanki, should he not gain some insurance? Dispater proposed Gith remain with him in the Nine Hells for as long as Tiamat upheld her side of the agreement. If either side breaks the alliance, Gith and the red dragons on loan would be free. Ephelomon saw the wisdom in this proposition, and Gith agreed but with a condition. Gith required the githyanki be free to choose their own destinies and never be subservient to the Dark Lady.

Officially, the githzerai would have no influence over the red dragons, since this is dependent on the scepter held by Queen Vlaakith CXVII.

Sat, 2010-11-27 19:29
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Palomides
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Re: Questions about the pact between Gith and Tiamat

If we run with your idea
Gith serving as a mind flayer god (or at least as part of one). That would probably be her worst nightmare.
But it still begs the questions of what boon did Tiamat receive from Ilsensine for the trade and why would Ilsensine need/want a githyanki warrior to create a mind flayer god of knowledge.

Even in the semi-official answer, it doesn't seem like Tiamat got much out of the deal except the promise of "the githyanki's assistance should Tiamat require it". I know Tiamat is patient, but this is ridiculous

I've been toying with the idea that Tiamat did enlist the forces of the githyanki in an attack on Marduk and some other Babylonian/Sumerian powers (I guess she thought she could get rid of Bahamut AFTER she got rid of the Babyloninas). This might provide an "explanation" for why the Babylonian/Sumerian powers are in relative decline.
[I really like the visual of the ancient city-states of the Babylonians fighting off massive attacks from the red dragons/ githyanki]

But due to some loophole in the contract (e.g. the red dragons will serve so long as the blood of Vlaakith wields the sceptre), the arrangement still stand long after it reasonable should have.

Sat, 2010-11-27 20:02
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ripvanwormer
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Re: Questions about the pact between Gith and Tiamat

Quote:
why would Ilsensine need/want a githyanki warrior to create a mind flayer god of knowledge.

for vengeance. Gith destroyed the illithid empire; what better way to defang the hated leader of the rebellion and torment her forever? And the service Ilsensine can best provide Tiamat is knowledge. Knowledge of the secrets of her rivals, sources of treasure, things Tiamat likes. Yummy dragon treats.

Quote:
Even in the semi-official answer, it doesn't seem like Tiamat got much out of the deal except the promise of "the githyanki's assistance should Tiamat require it". I know Tiamat is patient, but this is ridiculous

Is it? Why? An alliance with the githyanki isn't anything to be sneezed at - they're one of the most powerful mortal planar races. They have to be treated as allies rather than servants according to the terms of the agreement, but they're still treaty-bound to aid her whenever she needs. If Tiamat wants to raze a city of Bahamut-worshipers (or Garyx-worshipers, or Marduk-worshipers) to the ground, the githyanki are bound to help her do it. I don't think Bahamut has anything comparable. I don't think patience is required to take advantage of this.

Quote:
I've been toying with the idea that Tiamat did enlist the forces of the githyanki in an attack on Marduk and some other Babylonian/Sumerian powers (I guess she thought she could get rid of Bahamut AFTER she got rid of the Babyloninas). This might provide an "explanation" for why the Babylonian/Sumerian powers are in relative decline. [I really like the visual of the ancient city-states of the Babylonians fighting off massive attacks from the red dragons/ githyanki] But due to some loophole in the contract (e.g. the red dragons will serve so long as the blood of Vlaakith wields the sceptre), the arrangement still stand long after it reasonable should have.

Tiamat probably didn't expect Vlaakith's line to last intact for over ten thousand years, but I'm not sure that's a problem for either side. The githyanki like having access to the pact dragons, and Tiamat likes having access to the githyanki. I wouldn't think of the githyanki side of the bargain as a one-time thing. Even after the Babylonian pantheon declined (having the orc pantheon slaughter their manifestations in the Forgotten Realms probably didn't help), she still probably had plenty of other tasks to keep them busy over the millennia.

Sun, 2010-11-28 11:52
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Palomides
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Re: Questions about the pact between Gith and Tiamat

I think we're quibbling over minor points.

I realize that in game terms (and perhaps some historical cases), the transition to godhood is sometimes just a factor of a person being in the right place at the right time (I'm thinking of several FR gods). I just don't think the warrior Gith would be my first choice for a god of knowledge (although I'm sure she had to be somewhat clever as well as a fierce warrior).
It just seems like making Woody Allen a demigod of strength. It's not outside the power of the gods, it just seems like a bad fit to me.
Although, I agree that the choice of Gith would make a Ravenloft-esque level of evil, painful, ironic punishment. (That I do like)

While I don't know my planar history as well as others (especially Rip), I'm not aware of Tiamat actually using the githyanki to further her goals. Since it's been tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands of years), that just seems like she's been sitting on this resource for too damn long to make it worthwhile. That's just a personal opinion.
However I like the idea of Tiamat having already used them as an overwhelming strike force (diving from the skies of numerous worlds, engulfing Bablyonian city-states in the flames of red dragon breath, psionically blasting the amassed Babylonian armies led by their god-kings, etc.) Then because the end conditions of the pact weren't met, the arangement still remains in place (which Tiamat wouldn't mind as they prove a useful tool for some future unplanned project); I just personally think she should/would have used the githyanki before now.
If nothing else, she could have used them to help take out Venger from the '80's cartoon show!

Sun, 2010-11-28 16:48
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ripvanwormer
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Re: Questions about the pact between Gith and Tiamat

Palomides wrote:
I think we're quibbling over minor points.

No doubt.

Quote:
I just don't think the warrior Gith would be my first choice for a god of knowledge

She was likely a warrior/psionicist, but that's immaterial. Gith's qualifications don't matter, because the nature of the body donor used in illithid reproduction (ceremorphosis) doesn't generally affect the resulting illithid except in determining their rough height and body shape, as long as the donor was a human, githyanki, drow, or similar humanoid. The entity that became a god of knowledge is the larva, or tadpole, that Ilsensine (in this scenario) allowed to squirm into Gith's brain. Gith's soul is trapped within the god, but doesn't become the god. Any other humanoid would have worked as well, but wouldn't be so deliciously ironic.

Quote:
I'm not aware of Tiamat actually using the githyanki to further her goals.

There isn't much documentation in published sources of the githyanki using red dragons to further their goals, either. We know they have that option, but githyanki in general aren't used that many times in the various official adventures and periodicals. D&D in general hasn't focused much on planar races. In theory there might be any number of examples of dragon-mounted githyanki destroying cities or engaging in aerial dogfights with griffon-mounted knights or gnomish elemental-powered biplanes, but we'll have to make them up ourselves.

In the same way, Tiamat isn't really a heavily-used character, historically. She exists as the patron of a cult in Unther in the Forgotten Realms, she's potentially killed off in the 1st edition adventure Throne of Bloodstone, the 3rd edition Monster Manual IV had a bunch of different dragonspawn of Tiamat, and she's gotten more time in 4th edition than ever before (much of it in the Scales of War adventure path, which takes place after the pact with Vlaakith has ended), but that's pretty much it. And of course, it was only in 1997 that Monte Cook decided the pact existed.

And yet, as Rumsfeld said, "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence." It's a big, big fictional multiverse with a very long in-game history, and there are any number of opportunities for the githyanki to have attacked Tiamat's enemies over the millennia. Your idea of the redoubts of the Babylonian pantheon getting razed is a good one, and Tiamat's enemies list is long, with a variety of Babylonian and draconic gods who have slighted her.

So of course she has used the githyanki before now. She likely uses them constantly. There are many worlds and planes for them to visit, however, and if they haven't yet demolished Waterdeep it can't be taken as proof she isn't using them for anything.

Quote:
If nothing else, she could have used them to help take out Venger from the '80's cartoon show!

That cartoon would have been so much better if that had happened.

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