I'm hoping someone here already has this list put together - it seems like the kind of thing a couple of people here might have already assembled out of curiosity - but I was curious if anyone had a good resource for where exactly the vestiges from ToM all originally came from, for the ones that weren't original creations. Not like the specific original source, but just something like "Karsus was the mage in FR that almost took down the weave" for example. A good portion of them I can tell the original source from, but others are a little more obscure to me. Does anyone have anything like this already handy?
Question about Vestiges in ToM
Fri, 2010-08-06 22:23
#1
Question about Vestiges in ToM
Sat, 2010-08-07 02:29
#3
Re: Question about Vestiges in ToM
Edit: Whoops, double post. Sorry.
Sat, 2010-08-07 02:31
#4
Re: Question about Vestiges in ToM
Thanks, Hyena. Here are the ones I already recognized myself, just to get them out of the way (not counting the six you mentioned):
Amon: From the description, assumedly the last remnant of Amaunator, a dead FR deity
Dahlver-Nar: The source of the 1e artifact the Teeth of Dahlver-Nar, which ToM retconned into a vestige-related set of binder artifacts
Dantalion: One of the 72 Goetic demons, whose description isn't _too_ far off his description in ToM, but I feel like he showed up in something in D&D too.
Eurynome: Mythological being from Greek mythology, pretty much exactly how she's described in ToM
Karsus: As mentioned above, the Karsus of "Karsus' Folly" in Toril, when he tried to use a 12th-level spell to depose Mystryl as god of magic
Some of the others sound like they're probably existing setting characters too - especially the others listed as Amon having a grudge against; since Karsus is one I can only assume the others are FR characters too (though Eurynome I'm not sure about, was she ever an FR deity on top of her mythological status?) - but I'm not sure.
Sat, 2010-08-07 06:53
#5
Re: Question about Vestiges in ToM
Most of them are based on figures from actual demonology, but hadn't appeared in D&D before. They're the names of Goetic demons with new D&D non-demonic backgrounds in order to tie the binder to real-life Hermetic traditions without making them associated with the Lower Planes.
Sat, 2010-08-07 13:48
#6
Re: Question about Vestiges in ToM
Acererak - from 1e Tomb of Horrors and 2e Return to the Tomb of Horrors
Agares - new, but this Goetic demon name was already used for an unrelated duke serving Geryon (now Levistus)
Amon - A new, generic deity inspired by Amaunator. Amon is not Amaunator, particularly since FR's Amaunator never got twisted into a hateful vestige, and actually came back to life. But obviously there's some inspiration.
Andras - new
Andromalius - new
Aym - new
Balam - new
Buer - new, but this name was earlier used for one of the dukes serving Asmodeus.
Chupoclops - new
Dahlver-nar - mentioned in 1e DMG and 2e Book of Artifacts
Dantalion - new
Eligor - new
Euryome - new
Focolor - new, but "Focalor" is Mammon's seneschal
Geryon - 1e MM, A Paladin in Hell
Haagenti - new, but the same Goetic demon was used as an unrelated demon lord in Fiendish Codex I
Halphax - new
Haures - new
Ipos - new
Karsus - from the Forgotten Realms setting
Leraje - new
Malphas - new, but previously used as one of Tiamat's (and Bel's) archdevil generals
Marchosias - new
Naberias - new
Orthos - new
Otiax - new
Paimon - new
Ronove - new
Savnok - new
Shax - new
Tenebrous - from Dead Gods
Zagan - new, though "Zagum" is an archduke serving Asmodeus
Sat, 2010-08-07 18:20
#7
Re: Question about Vestiges in ToM
""Geryon - 1e MM, A Paladin in Hell""
He appeared in more than just that. He was in Planes of Chaos as well, IIRC, along with Faces of Evil and any other 2E book that described the Lords of the Nine.
Asmodeus, as part of some intricate plot, (probably to eventually allow his daughter to kill Levistus) killed Geryon between 2E and 3E and replaced him with Levistus.
Here's the additional vestiges outside of ToM.
--Ahazu the Seizer (Dungeon 148)
--Ansitif the Befouler (Dragon 357)
--Ashardalon (Dragon Magic)
--Astaroth/Diabolus (Dragon 357)
--Cabiri the Watcher (Dragon 357)
--Kas (Dragon 341)
--Primus (Dragon 341)
--Zceryll (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718)
I already described Kas and Primus (BTW Ripvanwormer, there's a pic of Primus in that volume of Dragon, though personally I disagree with their coloring scheme of him *they made him flesh-colored, while I always pictured him as being shiny like quicksilver*
Some of those I recognize by name, but not by source.
As for making vestiges, the following entities are likely to be vestiges.
Bear in mind that generally, an entity cannot be a vestige if it was absorbed by another power (Such as Leira, Ibrandlin, and Aoskar).
One might wonder is Brista Pel (late Princess of Elemental Good Fire) is a vestige, but I see no evidence for this. As far as I can tell, her essence is completely scattered to the winds (or is that fires?)
Anthaxus could conceivably be a vestige (one of the volumes of the first of the three Adventure Paths from Dungeon claims he's dead IIRC, and I think the 2E sources aren't entiely clear as to whether or not he's still alive, merely that he still exists.)
Moander is also a very good canidates for a vestige, though Myrkul is not (his cultists are still gaining spells and such IIRC and Myrkul still retains too much power to be one)
Ulutiu is not a vestige, but he is slowly dying, and thus parts of his essence may have entered vestig...ity?
Several dead Titans are also likely to be vestiges.
Hleid (Frostburn) is dead, but she is not a vestige, as her essence was scattered among a prime world in the form of Rimefire Eidolons. OTOH, the rimefire eidolons which HAVE been destroyed thus far may have coalesced into a vestige.
Amon has indeed been adapted to Amaunator on the wizards website page for vestige adaption. They justify this by mentioning one of his aspects, A'tar, who is indeed vengeful and especially merciless.
Sat, 2010-08-07 21:15
#8
Re: Question about Vestiges in ToM
He appeared in more than just that. He was in Planes of Chaos as well, IIRC, along with Faces of Evil and any other 2E book that described the Lords of the Nine.
He wasn't in any of those books. He wasn't mentioned during the Planescape era at all. Levistus was the Lord of the Fifth during the Planescape era, and it wasn't revealed that Levistus and Geryon were different beings until A Paladin in Hell. This information was repeated in Guide to Hell.
Asmodeus, as part of some intricate plot, (probably to eventually allow his daughter to kill Levistus) killed Geryon between 2E and 3E and replaced him with Levistus.
Not quite. Levistus replaced Geryon between the 1e and 2e eras (retconned to be over a thousand years before - it's hard to place the Reckoning on the timeline exactly, but Bel's coup against Zariel was over 1000 years ago, and the Reckoning was before that, possibly during the same period as the Rebellion of the Inferiors mentioned in the Hellbound boxed set. Ideally, I'd like to match it with the ascension or decline of some devil-worshiping empire on the Material Plane, but I don't know which. Narfell's too demonic and Aerdy, Cheliax, Bael Turath, and the Horned Society are much too recent). Geryon appears in exile in A Paladin in Hell, ruling his shattered court from Citadel Coldsteel and plotting to prove himself worthy of being granted command of Stygia once again. Geryon is still alive (in exile) as of the Book of Vile Darkness web enhancement, but was killed by Asmodeus at some point before Tome of Magic.
Anthaxus could conceivably be a vestige (one of the volumes of the first of the three Adventure Paths from Dungeon claims he's dead IIRC, and I think the 2E sources aren't entiely clear as to whether or not he's still alive, merely that he still exists.)
Anthraxus is clearly still alive in Planes of Conflict, Faces of Evil, and the Dragon Annual #2, since he's said to be seeking mercenary work among the various lower planar powers. I believe Dungeon had him looking for his staff, not dead. He retakes his throne some time in the next century, if we can judge by the 4th edition materials (and I think we can, if only because they made an effort to follow previous continuity as far as the Anthraxus/Mydianchlarus rivalry is concerned... but whatever).
I think Amaunator can't be a vestige because he's revealed to be the same entity as Lathander, but it's possible that some aspect of him became a vestige, fragmented from the original.
Sun, 2010-08-08 06:17
#9
Re: Question about Vestiges in ToM
^^I believe the idea on the link I posted is that Amaunator's wrath/A'tar aspect went on to become a vestige.
My mistake about Geryon, then, though.
Man, do you have a photographic memory, or something? (or do you simply have worse OCD than I do?). How in the world do you remember all of this stuff...?
Mon, 2010-08-09 14:59
#10
Re: Question about Vestiges in ToM
Most of them are based on figures from actual demonology, but hadn't appeared in D&D before. They're the names of Goetic demons with new D&D non-demonic backgrounds in order to tie the binder to real-life Hermetic traditions without making them associated with the Lower Planes.
Aha, okay. That actually does make a lot of sense in hindsight, I never thought of the connection between pact magic and hermetic magic. Thanks, both of you!
Sat, 2010-08-14 15:47
#11
Re: Question about Vestiges in ToM
I have to take issue with Idran's statement that Eurynome is presented accurately in TOM. In actuallity, she was protrayed as the original creator of the universe in certain Greek myths, effectively "God" and not just another Titan among many. She had a partner/lover named Ophion, but she kicked him out when he tried to take credit for her works.
Sat, 2010-08-14 16:18
#12
Re: Question about Vestiges in ToM
I have to take issue with Idran's statement that Eurynome is presented accurately in TOM. In actuallity, she was protrayed as the original creator of the universe in certain Greek myths, effectively "God" and not just another Titan among many. She had a partner/lover named Ophion, but she kicked him out when he tried to take credit for her works.
Fair enough, that's more a reflection of my own lack of knowledge than anything. I should have said "to the best of my understanding" with that.
Uh... Well, there are some vestiges outside of the ToM as well. Some of them are in my Outer Planes Resource Index topic.
Lemee look and see what I recognize here...
Acererak: He built the Tomb of Horrors (the Greyhawk equivalent of Undermountain, but much more difficult, and essentially meant to be used in tournaments to see which "team" could get the furthest before dying)
Geryon: He was the Lord of Stygia (5th layer of Baator) before 3x.
Tenebrous: This was the being Orcus became after being slain back in 1E, and was mentioned in depth in the Planescape Adventure "Dead Gods".
I do not recognize any of the other names, and neither Haagenti or Shax (former giant deities) are mentioned (not by name at least) in Giantcraft.
VESTIGES FROM OTHER SOURCES
--Dragon 341--
Kas: Kas was Vecna's most trusted servant who, IIRC betrayed and killed him. This occurred before 1E, when Vecna was still a mortal (somewhat).
Primus: The deity of the Modrons, slain in the Planescape Adventure "The Modron March".
This page adapts several of the vestiges for the Forgotten Realms Setting.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718
I'm sorry, but I don't remember where or who the others (from non-ToM sources) are. You'll have to look in my Outer Planes Resource Index topic (I'm too lazy to search for it at the moment) (although looking at a list of minor artifacts in one of my files, Ahazu in Dungeon 143 and Shami-Amourae in Dungeon 148 are also vestiges. Those two are former Abyssal Lords.)