Prime Vulnerabilities

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Tue, 2006-09-19 14:41

Iavas

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Prime Vulnerabilities

Okay, I've read so much screed on the subject that I've lost sight of the true dark of the matter. And I've skimmed most of my 2e Planescape collection without success. So, if somebody could please answer this question for me and site a 2e source, I would be very appreciative indeed.

Why don't the fiends (or any of the other exemplars, for that matter) overrun the Prime? Aside from them fearing the deities, which they fear on the Outer Planes just as much, there is a great reason to do so. After all, the beliefs of the primes fuel the life and nature of the outsiders. Why, then, isn't the Prime a free-for-all battleground for all the exemplars of the Great Ring? Faces of Evil: The Fiends says that the Baatezu sometimes make arbitrary rules concerning how many of them can visit the prime, but aside from that, both they and the Tanar'ri can freely romp the Prime. I know there's a reason they don't... I remember something... I just can't recall what it is and where I read it.

Tue, 2006-09-19 15:18

Jem

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Prime Vulnerabilities

Among other things:

1) fearing the deities ain't chicken feed. ;^) Any effort fiends put into propagandizing on the Prime will be countered by the servants of the Uppler Planar deities, who can be a lot more straightforward about their aims. People like angels and don't like demons; it would be an awful lot of effort to change that view, and you'd have to convince some real high-ups that it would be profitable.

2) Blood War takes up a lot of time and effort.

3) Thing about exemplars on the Prime is, they aren't natural there -- they can be banished, and fiends often are. Fewer people go around wanting to banish angels, but for various reasons good gods seem to want to leave human free will as intact as possible and not send their nonhuman servants to meddle in human affairs every day. (Pick your reason: they don't have the energies, familiarity breeds contempt, treaty among Powers, etc.)

This is all off the top of my head, but I imagine the main thing is that exemplars on the Prime can be banished -- by other exemplars running around the Prime, too, so for the most part it would be a lot of effort canceling each other out.

Tue, 2006-09-19 16:42

(Reply to #2) #3

Iavas

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Prime Vulnerabilities

All of those are true, but a Baatezu can be banished anywhere outside of Baator, yet the Blood War spills out into almost all of the other Outer Planes. And the Blood War has not only the possibility but also the reason to spill out onto the Prime. There must be something more tangible keeping it at bay.

Tue, 2006-09-19 16:56

(Reply to #3) #4

ripvanwormer

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Prime Vulnerabilities

In the past, the fiends have overwhelmed entire Material Planar worlds, but it's just not their primary focus. Their primary focus is the Blood War, which takes place primarily on the Planes of Conflict. The Material Plane is useful as a source of new recruits, and massing too many fiendish troops there risks destroying what might otherwise be a productive soul farm. No Prime, no new fiends, after all. Better to keep the worlds intact and corrupt them subtly, so they can get the most profit from them.

Tue, 2006-09-19 19:07

(Reply to #4) #5

Vzerii til Corrinea

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Prime Vulnerabilities

I'm pretty sure it's been said that certain kinds of fiends can only be summoned to other worlds via spells. Also, the Blood War has used Prime worlds for battlegrounds, you just don't hear about it. Furthermore, on the Great Wheel it's usually a lot easier to slip from plane to plane than it from plane to Prime (Whether through portal or natural conduit).

Sat, 2006-09-23 06:06

(Reply to #5) #6

Armoury99

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Prime Vulnerabilities

Personally I lean towards several factors, but with the central principal of a "Prime Directive of the Gods"

The same way that the Powers limit what their mortal servants can do in the Planes (reduced clerical spellcasting ability), they also restrict what their Examplars can do in the mortal realm. If an evil deity just dispatches an army of fiends then the good deities can send their own forces down as well and pretty soon the whole prime is a smoking wreckage with angels, devils, and Gods striding around, and lots of dead mortals. Total waste of all those souls... and of course, neither side is certain that they'll actually win (or win anything worth keeping). There are lots of Planar concerns too, like Fiends being preocuppied with the Blood War.

Basically both sides prefer a Cold War to a hot one. Both sides use numerous undercover agents to get their way, while looking for the advantage that will finally allow them to "cheat the system" - letting them decend on masse with guarrenteed victory (the One Ring principal)

Powers and their Proxies keep the independant Examplars in line, while encouraging cunning strategies like demonic possession, miraculous appearances, etc... Any agent who comes by unsanctioned means (like a portal) is tacitly ignored by the Boss unless caught, whn his actions will be disavowed and he gets punished to maintain the status quo.

"Good morning Angel Phelps. You mission, should you choose to accept it..."

Sat, 2006-09-23 11:02

(Reply to #6) #7

ripvanwormer

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Prime Vulnerabilities

I like to think that the exemplars dictate terms to the gods, when and if they choose to ally with them at all, rather than the other way around.

Sat, 2006-09-23 19:40

(Reply to #7) #8

420

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Prime Vulnerabilities

Here is the answer I posted to the WotC board:

'420' wrote:

The abyss isn't infinite, demons are just liars and not very good ones at that.

If the Lower Planes overran the Prime(s) no one would be left to believe in the Outer Planes.

"MMM mmm, that was a tasty Prime... well that's all of them."
*Blip!* No more Outer Planes.

-420

Sun, 2006-09-24 03:41

(Reply to #8) #9

Armoury99

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'ripvanwormer' wrote:

I like to think that the exemplars dictate terms to the gods, when and if they choose to ally with them at all, rather than the other way around.

Do you have any evidence to support that? I quite like that idea, but I'd say the feel of the game (especially considering the literature that generally inspired it) posits an angelic/godly relationship that runs the other way around.

Specifically, I seem to remember the 2e suppliment Warriors of Heaven certainly had a theme of "you're an angel, you want to serve a good god" in it (more than I liked, in fact).

On the other hand, PS did some of its best work when inverting gaming steriotypes... and I can definately imagine evil Exemplars dictating terms to Powers, so why not the good guys? Is there anything we can use to back up your view, or is it just a personal preference?

PS: This concept might be well worth throwing at the Brainstorming Session, Rip.

Mon, 2006-09-25 00:03

(Reply to #9) #10

ripvanwormer

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Prime Vulnerabilities

'Armoury99' wrote:

That depends entirely on the beings in question. Planes of Law says that most archons above hound level serve a god. The PSMC2, on the other hand, confirms that eladrins almost never serve deities, and guardinals generally don't either.

Aasimon, or "angels," always serve gods, who are the beings who created them (from petitioners or favored mortals).

Tanar'ri or baatezu sometimes serve gods, but more often don't. Yugoloths never serve the gods. Neither do modrons. No relation between gods and rilmani has ever been described.

Quote:

Specifically, I seem to remember the 2e suppliment Warriors of Heaven certainly had a theme of "you're an angel, you want to serve a good god" in it (more than I liked, in fact).

Yes, that book was a disgusting abomination. D&D would be the better if all copies of it were utterly destroyed destroyed, in my humble opinion. Or at least the parts dealing with celestial lifespans and relations with powers, and the terrible divine realms in the appendix as well. I've never hated a D&D book like I hate that one.

Wed, 2006-10-11 17:48

(Reply to #10) #11

motorfirebox

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Prime Vulnerabilities

i tend to assume that they do invade the Prime, all the time. i assume there are entire planes wholly within the domain of one fiendish race or the other, as well as hotly-contested planes. the only reason nobody notices is that there are so many Prime worlds out there--an infinity of worlds. so what if a hundred of them, a thousand of them, a million of them are under the heel of the fiends (or the angels, for that matter)?

as for why the fiends don't invade, say, Toril, i assume that it's not worth the effort. places like Toril are chock-full of high-level badasses that would make invasion a difficult proposition, and would make permanent occupation hell. why bother, when there's an infinity of less-defended Prime worlds out there, ripe for the taking?

Wed, 2006-10-11 18:47

(Reply to #11) #12

Duckluck

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Prime Vulnerabilities

I recall reading in the Fiendish Codex just the other day that Primes conquered by Demons slide into the Abyss Menausus-style.

Therefore, I imagine it's the same with the other allignments. Any world that is so badly conquered that it becomes souly the domain of one allignment will shift into that allignment's plane. The problem is that since the planes are infinite already, and the primes are a much better source of souls (for whatever reason). This means that conquering a prime outright is a lot of work with little benefit. Which in turn means that few primes get conquered and those that do leave behind little evidence that they were ever there in the first place.

Wed, 2006-10-11 21:08

(Reply to #12) #13

Jem

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Prime Vulnerabilities

Didn't know Primes could slide around like that. Nemausus, okay, but that's because the Outer Planes are shaped by belief.

Makes you wonder... could a Prime slip into the Uppers? Say, if the entire intelligent population of a Prime became decent, hardworking blighters with a bit of a sense of humor, could they wake up to find themselves on Bytopia? And not want to be there? Sure, presumably when a plane slides into the Abyss the inhabitants want out, but even on the Uppers, maybe a Prime's folk like being Primes and not planars, seeing stars overhead at night, and the like. The angels would want to help out the nice folks, so an effort might be mounted to "rescue" them.

Except... how do they get it out of there? Make the people a little more evil? Perish the thought! You might resettle them, if they were willing to leave their homeworld behind; settling them all on one planet would probably cause the same thing to happen again, but if you scattered various settlements across the worlds they'd probably be a good influence on whatever populations they encountered.

(You know, tangential thought. Has anybody ever "attacked," say, a layer of Acheron or Pandemonium, with a large, organized effort to move those planes to Mechanus or Limbo -- or even the Outlands -- and thus, perhaps, weaken Evil in general? The loss of Nemausus probably hit the inhabitants of Arcadia pretty hard.)

But maybe you can't just "slip" into an Upper Plane, especially one based on hard work, without striving for it. Maybe it could be "lifted" up, though: a concerted effort by the population to bring the plane to transcendence. Now there's a show-stopper of a cultural achievement!

In general, maybe a Prime only slips to the Outer Planes when Good or Evil has irrevocably triumphed on that sphere: the locals fought their Armageddon, and somebody won. Thereafter, the world is paradise, or hell on Earth -- effectively, the sphere itself has died and gone to the afterlife. (And hopefully Ortho isn't due to sidle over to Mechanus any time soon.)

Wed, 2006-10-11 21:46

(Reply to #13) #14

Azriael

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Prime Vulnerabilities

Quote:

This is pretty much the objective of the Order of the Plane Militant but they seem to be more focussed on taking the 'softer options' which are closer to Celestia.

Quote:

(And hopefully Ortho isn't due to sidle over to Mechanus any time soon.)

Yeah, I imagine Ortho's set to slide in the not too distant future according to the canon descriptions (although the version posted on PW is a bit more varied because of the detail).

__________________

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Wed, 2006-10-11 22:38

(Reply to #14) #15

Duckluck

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Prime Vulnerabilities

I don't know about Ortho. Just because it's all Harmonium, doesn't mean they are all actually the same allignment. They have just gotten past that whole "nationalism" thing. It's like if the United Nations became the unquestioned rulers of Earth. There would still be a whole bunch of different people with a whole bunch of different beliefs, they just wouldn't be organized into countries anymore.

When Menausus/Nemausus fell into Mechanus, it was because the layer had become all about Law and only slightly about good if even that much. Since the outer planes are ideas and not places, it was an easy switch. The layer never actually moved, people just started thinking about it differently.

A prime, however, is a literal place and, therefore, the only way it could be absorbed by an outer plane is if it became a complete paragon of that plane's ideals. This is feasible enough when an army of genocidal exemplars is invading, but even a sphere as homogenous as Ortho would be pretty safe.

One other thing, I'm relatively new to Planescape, and I was wondering about the Menausus/Nemausus thing. Menausus is the new spelling, but what's the history behind it? Is there a good reason, or did they just feal like changing it the way they changed Caina?

Wed, 2006-10-11 23:06

(Reply to #15) #16

ripvanwormer

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Prime Vulnerabilities

'Duckluck' wrote:

I assume they changed it because they had just invented a new realm in Mechanus - Neumannus, home of the inevitables - that sounded so much like Nemausus that they feared confusion. Of course, it would have made more sense to change the name of Neumannus - which didn't exist previously - rather than turn Nemausus - a name with an actual mythological meaning - into a meaningless set of syllables.

I sort of assumed that "Cania" was just a typo that got perpetuated, but it's possible they were deliberately trying to avoid words with Biblical connotations.

Wed, 2006-10-11 23:23

(Reply to #16) #17

Duckluck

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Thanks, that's informative. I wish they wouldn't change things for no good reason. I think Caina was sort of a fluke. If they were going after words with biblical meanings, I'd think "Gehenna" would be first on their list. Possibly someone decided that that "Cania" just sounded better.

Thu, 2006-10-12 04:40

(Reply to #17) #18

ripvanwormer

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Good point; I have no idea how Gehenna made it past the censors. Maybe the TSR execs didn't know what it meant, or assumed the average customer wouldn't. But they tried to purge the game of the words "demon" and "devil," the Nine Hells became simply Baator, and the Seven Heavens became Mount Celestia. The other names of Baator's layers are either from Greek mythology or names Dante made up like "Malbolge." It seems to me that Caina/Cania was part of a trend.

Thu, 2006-10-12 11:20

(Reply to #18) #19

Duckluck

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And now they've snapped back as if nothing happened. It's really infuriating, because everything has two names. The name they gave it when they decided to self-cencer, and the old name they brought back, I suppose, to show that they had gotten over the whole thing. For the record, I like the name Gehreleth way better than Demodand, even if the other names (like Aasimon) look sort of stupid now.

Thu, 2006-10-12 13:57

(Reply to #19) #20

Iavas

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Prime Vulnerabilities

I just assume that the 'censored' version is the way Primes would call that particular exemplar, whereas planars would know the real name. So the big hulking Pit Fiend Baatezu from Baator (to a planar) is a big hulking fiery devil from the nine hells (to a well educated prime). As for layer names... I only discovered that Menausus was called Nemausus recently, and I didn't have a clue about Cania being Caina before. This is, sadly, because I learned the names from MotP first, before finally being introduced to Planescape. Could planar names evolve along with the planes, such as Mechanus being just Regulus in 1e and then expanding to infinite proportions by 2e?

As for prime worlds sliding into Outer Planes - that should be a rare event indeed. Maybe a complete take-over by one particular type of exemplar. And, as the whole origin of the topic questions, that shouldn't happen for some reason or another.

Finally, considering that some powerful unique exemplars are strong enough to challenge a diety and win (Bel vs Tiamat, Anthraxus vs Ellaniath, and Ocrus vs half the bloody multiverse), I think the deity/exemplar relationship is sort of like government/business relationship in some countries. The government sets the laws, but big businesses have the power to affect the government with sheer influence.

Sat, 2006-10-14 13:50

(Reply to #20) #21

motorfirebox

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'Duckluck' wrote:

three names, actually, if you count the original "Type ..." notation.

Sun, 2006-10-15 15:28

(Reply to #21) #22

ripvanwormer

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Alternate tanar'ri names

'motorfirebox' wrote:

three names, actually, if you count the original "Type ..." notation.

The 0e D&D Immortals Set did introduce an alternate set of names for each "true" tanar'ri type, so I guess that does make three in all. And balors were originally called balrogs when they were first introduced; their name was changed because Tolkien's estate threatened to sue. That was back before 1e, though.

The deal with the "type" names is that supposedly demons up to type III level didn't have individual names - they only had species names. Vrock, hezrou, and glabrezu were their species names, used in 1e as well as 2e. Above that, they had individual names, and Nalfeshnee, Marilith, and Balor were the names of three individuals of their respective types. 2e used them as their species names instead.

Succubus tanar'ri = whispering demons = succubus demons
Vrock tanar'ri = screaming demons = type I (vrock) demons
Hezrou tanar'ri = croaking demons = type II (hezrou) demons
Glabrezu tanar'ri = howling demons = type III (glabrezu) demons
Nalfeshnee tanar'ri = groaning demons = type IV (Nalfeshnee, etc.) demons
Marilith tanar'ri = hissing demons = type V (Marilith, etc.) demons
Balor tanar'ri = roaring demons = type VI (Balor, etc.) demons = balrogs

Although there were actually even more than that, as the Immortals rules included additional alternate names for each type:

Whispering demon: Charmer, Gray Deceiver
Screaming demon: Air Demon, Winged Fury
Croaking demon: Swamp Demon, Gobbler
Howling demon: Fire Demon, Four-Armed Horror
Groaning demon: Forest Demon, Biter
Hissing demon: Water Demon, Destroyer
Roaring demon: Mountain Demon, Manslayer
Orcus: The Goat, Master of the Dead, Lord of Darkness, The Black Prince
Demogorgon: The Child, Bane of Souls, The Lizard King, The Dark Lady

So that's, like, six different names for each of them.

Fri, 2006-10-27 13:25

(Reply to #22) #23

Iavas

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Prime Vulnerabilities

Back to my original topic, though...

I finally found what it was I remember reading. There were more specific rules for planar travel after all. Not all of the exemplar races had specific rules, but here's what I found. This is directly quoted from the books, so if that's illegal or something, feel free to delete the post.

After rereading some of the old 2e Monstrous Compendiums (namely I and II), here's what I got:

"Monsterous Compendium I" wrote:

Baatezu can travel to Baator, any lower plane, the Outlands, and the Astral Plane. However, they cannot enter the Prime Material Plane or UPper planes unless properly summoned. Least and lesser baatezu are subject to a combination of magical signs that, when inscribed and a gate spell cast, bind them to service for nine days, keeping them, from harming the caster. The greater baatezu can likewise be commanded or kept at bay for nine hours.

"Monsterous Compendium I" wrote:

The gehreleths are the "summoning stock" of the Lower Planes. A wizard or priest who summons a lower-planar creature often gets a gehreleth - unfortunately. Gehreleths are dangerous to summoners because they avenge deeds they are forced to perform, often plotting revenge for many years. They never forget. Gehreleths, particularly the farastu, may even disobey a summoner, regardless of the importance of the mission. They are stubborn and hate servitude.

"Monsterous Compendium I" wrote:

Because yugoloths are servants and mercenaries, they are naturally prone to summonings and conjurations by spellcasters. When a mage summons a lower planar being, he is 40% likely to summon a yugoloth; otherwise he summons a gehreleth. However, an ancient tome details the processes of summoning yugoloths, both greater and lesser. Penned by some uknown hand, The Book of Keeping relates much about the magical summoning and control of yugoloths. Of course, any spellcaster foolish enough to utter one of these names needs strong protection, or the creature so named smites the summoner and devours his life force. At least four copies of The Book of Keeping exist, but their locations remain uknown.

"Monsterous Compendium II" wrote:

Any eladrin can travel to any upper Plane, Ysgard, the Outlands, and the Astral Plane. Greater eladrins can travel to any Outer or Inner Plane, the Ethereal Plane, or any prime-material world. Unlike many fiends, eladrins can freely enter any world they can reach; they don't have to wait until they're summoned. However, eladrins are requires to veil themselves when traveling in prime-material worlds. The same laws that force a baatezu or tanar'ri to subject itself to the manipulations of a wizard also prevent an eladrin from revealing its true nature except under the direst of circumstances. When an eladrin is veiled, it takes on the guise of a creature native to the world it is journeying in. It may assume a human or demihuman form, pretending to be an adventurer or wandering bard. Once committed to its veil, it can't do anything that its assumed identity couldn't do whenever a mortal might be near enough to see. Should an eladrin violate its veil, it has to return to Arborea for 1,001 years before walking the prime-material worlds again. Usually the violator eladrin is allowed a brief time - a few minutes or an hour - to attend to any business it has to finish before it is called away.

"Monsterous Compendium II" wrote:

Guardinals're unrestricted in planar travel. They can leave Elysium by an innate ability resembling probability travel, which allows them to enter the Astral Plane with their physical bodies. They can also make use of any gate, portal, or conduit they find. In addition, guardinals can travel directly to the first layer of Bytopia, the Beastlands, or the Outlands from any point in Elysium.

"Monsterous Compendium II" wrote:

Rilmani can travel to any of the Outer Planes or the Astral Plane freely, but they can't enter the Prime Material Plane unless a creature of similar status is summoned at the same time. In other words, if a powerful prime-material mage summons a glabrezu tanar'ri, a window is opened by which a rilmani can enter the same world. There isn't always a rilmani ready to drop what he's doing and go investigate, but there's always a chance that a rilmani'll take an interest and "piggyback" on the other creature's summoning just to keep an eye on what's going on. Rilmani can't be summoned directly by any spell.

Tanar'ri, Slaadi, and, strangely, Archons and Modrons don't have much on planar travel rules (at least that I found). Also, some of the other descriptions aside from Baatezu, Eladrin, and Guardinal are vague at best. Still, I hope my typing this out wasn't useless and might help anybody who had the same question as the one I started out with. Also, if anybody finds any more direct information than that mentinoed above, do quote!

Fri, 2006-10-27 20:05

(Reply to #23) #24

ripvanwormer

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'Iavas' wrote:

Also, if anybody finds any more direct information than that mentinoed above, do quote!

Faces of Evil eliminated the restrictions on planar travel. It revised things to say that any tanar'ri who can teleport without error can enter any plane at will, but (preoccupied by the Blood War) they seldom do so. Baatezu who can teleport without error can likewise enter any plane at will, but will not do so unless given permission from a superior (which is seldom granted).

Fri, 2006-10-27 23:00

(Reply to #24) #25

Iavas

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0_o ... ...

I'm going to go soak my fingers in cold water now, thanks.

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