Pre Great Upheaval Sigil

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Pre Great Upheaval Sigil

Does it ever give a timeline of PRe Upheaval sigil?

Id like some ideas what sigil was like in say, the days of Netheril or before that.

I get the impression factions came and went almost daily.

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Re: Pre Great Upheaval Sigil

There was a post about Sigil 3500 years ago on the old PS site by one of the designers (McComb I think). I'll see if I can find it.

Personally I'm most interested in the era when Sigil had a golden age.

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Re: Pre Great Upheaval Sigil

Here it is

Spoiler: Highlight to view

McComb Colin wrote:
Sigil 3500 years ago

I took some time thinking about this, and here we go:

The town-- Landmarks and such would be completely different. It would be less scummy. Some of the gemstones that once decorated the entire ring might still exist. The Lady of Pain and the dabus remain constant.

planes as a whole-- The Sumerian pantheon and the Cthuhlu mythos are among the most powerful on the planes. The Chinese pantheon is wild and known for impetuous, ill-considered behavior. The Greek Pantheon is lead by a power of Time, Kronos.

Factions: this is a perfect opportunity to examine the dead factions.
The Expansionists
The Communals
The Dustmen-- or living dead.
The Incantifers
The Free Flora Collective-- a sect made up of intelligent plants; one of the
"faxions" from Dragon #216
The Decorators-- likewise. They believe in imposing fashion sense on the multiverse.
The Herbivorous Assembly-- Dragon #216. They believe in the supremacy of plant -eating creatures. Sworn enemies of the Flora Collective.

New old Factions:
Linguists: language is the key to power. This faction invented truename magic, and maybe even truenames.
Liars: the archenemies of the Linguists, these cutters believe that obscuring things is the true route to fulfillment.
Hierarchials (toadies): believe that everyone has a higher-up, someone better than they. Believe that harmony can be found by following a higher-up. Similar to the Harmonium.
Paradoxalists: believe that red is green and yellow is blue. Down is up and the destiny of all mortals is to go back in time and kill their grandparents.
Orthodoxans: a sect from the Prime whose sole mission is to destroy the Paradoxal abomination.
Defilers: a sect from the beautiful green world of Athas, who have found a wonderful new form of magic.
Bringers of the Dark: a fanatic group who will eventually manage to create Ravenloft
Torchbearers of Blellow: a Paradoxalist splinter group who believe that it is possible for opposites to reconcile themselves. Based in the Outlands.
Relativists: believe all the factions are right; in relative amounts. They are in charge of tracking the status of the 50+ factions.
Godmakers: a group devoted to creating their own god. Lead by a young mage called Vecna.
Technologists: a sect from the world of Blackmoor, excited about the possibilities of their new art.
Followers of the Flaem: a sect from the world of Alphatia, convinced that fire is the greatest of all elements.
Followers of Air: sworn enemies of the Flaems, they insist air is the most important and most useful element. These two won't destroy their homeworld for another thousand years.
Orcuds: a Dustman splinter group who believe that tanar'ri are closer to True Death than undead are. Their factol is a handsome pit fiend named Orcus.
Infernanators: founded by the god Enki, these cutters are convinced that all fiends should be wiped off the face of the planes.
Heralds of the Silver Void: believe that all planes originated in the Astral plane. They're convinced they must return there for universal harmony to resume.
Aetheric Faithful: like the Heralds, only they believe the first of all planes was the Ethereal.
Clueless: at this time a full faction, the Clueless believe that all other planes are merely projections of the Prime Material, and ought to be returned there.
Netherian Godwatchers: Similar to the later Athar, the Netherese look for a way to slay a power.
Smiths: a race of short, stocky beings strong in elemental magic. Chant hasit that the Smiths are suffering from hubris, and their patron Reorx is visiting them with a curse.
Abyss of All: believe that all planes are actually layers of the Abyss, and the Mondomegaloverse is a cruel joke.
Aoskans: followers of the god of portals. No one thinks they'll ever amount to anything; what good is a god of portals in a berg that has more than it needs? How redundant! They should stick to prosthelizing in the Prime, where they need a few more ways into town.
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 11:36:14 -0800

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Re: Pre Great Upheaval Sigil

I'm pretty sure Colin McComb didn't write that, since it contains the same errors (Orcus as a pit fiend) and weird neologisms (Mondomegaloverse) that were in my post to the Planescape mailing list on the subject in the late 1990s.

What I mean is, you really shouldn't blame Colin McComb for it, because I'm pretty sure everything in that post is my fault. I'm not sure how it got attributed to him instead; ah, the internet.

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Re: Pre Great Upheaval Sigil

I think I've downloaded the compilation from Mimir, long time ago. That's why I remembered it, still very interesting, no matter the mistake. Partially it inspired a modified Sigil spell in our Faction War campaign.

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Re: Pre Great Upheaval Sigil

That was a really early writing of mine. You can see it's kind of random, with me just throwing everything in there because I didn't really have a good sense of when things happened in relation to other things in the various D&D game worlds (or the difference between pit fiends and balors).

Actually, I wrote a better-researched thing much more recently in which I tried to trace which Prime worlds would be most influential in Sigil in different ages.

Spoiler: Highlight to view
The issue here is Planar Common, the dominant language in the City of Doors and other human-dominated planewalker communities on the planes. Where did it come from?

The Planewalker's Handbook (page 101) said that Planar Common descends from the Prime Common tongue, brought to the planes by prime explorers. In fact, it says "the earliest planar settlers from the Prime," which suggests that this couldn't possibly be the modern Common Tongue of Toril or Oerth or Krynn. In fact, it probably couldn't even be a human language. However, the Planewalker's Handbook also says "it remains understandable even by the greenest primes," which suggests that it actually *is* the same Common spoken on prime worlds - at least, on one of them.

The question, then, is which Common tongue is the ancestor of Planar Common? There are, as it happens, several.

Torilian Common is descended from Thorass, which is a pidgeon of Jhaamdathan, Jotun (the language of Torilian giants), and perhaps other influences. While there have been many Common-speaking planar explorers from Toril over the centuries thanks to that world's plentiful supply of planar portals, I'm unaware of any Common-speaking planar colonies dominant enough to force planewalkers in Sigil and elsewhere to know the language. If Sigilians ever sought to learn Torilian Common, it was solely to communicate with people from Toril. And Sigil, as we know, long precedes the advent of Torilian Common, or even the Empire of Jhaamdath whose language inspired it. Sigil is at least 10,000 years old, while Jhaamdath was founded around 7,000 years ago.

Common on Oerth, a relatively young language, is a mixture of Suloise and Oeridian tongues combined with Ancient Baklunish to become an ideal language of trade. It is no older than the Great Kingdom of Aerdy, which was founded a little more than seven hundred years ago.

Still, Sigil and the planes have doubtless known many different "Planar Common" languages across the millennia.

Until 10,000 years ago, the nation of Azlant is thought to have been the very first civilized human nation, "uplifted" by aboleths so that those alien beings would have servitors among the dry realms. The Azlanti reached incredible magical heights and colonized a number of planes. It is said that pale reflections of their domain exist on hundreds of worlds, and examples of their architecture have been discovered on planes as diverse as the Plane of Water and the Abyss. Azlanti were a common sight in the City of Doors 10,000 years ago (especially as refugees from the Earthfall that destroyed their prime kingdom flooded the streets), and the archmage Shekelor was said to be among their number.

One of the greatest and longest-lasting of prime-based planar empires was Imaskar, which began its planar explorations beginning in around -8120 DR (9,490 years before the Faction War in Sigil) until the empire's fall in -2488 DR. In -4370 DR, a plague decimated much of the Imaskari Empire, suspected by some to have been sent by the Lady of Pain in retribution for Imaskari magic tampering with the City of Doors. At its height, Imaskar had colonies on countless worlds and planes, and it's not unreasonable to assume that their language made up the Planar Common of its day. Imaskar succeeded Azlant as the greatest mortal empire on the planes.

From around 4,500-4,000 years ago the Alphatians, natives of the doomed world of the same name, colonized a number of planes in the Great Wheel and elsewhere, and replaced Imaskar as the preeminent planar-aware empire in the Outer Planes. Roughly 4,000 years ago, in their reckoning, they left their otherplanar colonies to fend for themselves as their early aggression was replaced by self-absorption and introspection.

The next empire of note was Netheril, also from Toril, who explored the planes and ultimately colonized the Plane of Shadow via their city of Thultanthar circa -339 DR. Another Netherese city, Selunnara, is now in the Gates of the Moon in Ysgard. The Netherese began exploring the planes extensively during their Age of Discovery beginning in -1205 DR (2574 years before the Faction War). While Netherese planewalkers were a relatively common sight during this period, they did not construct any colonies of note until their gods moved the cities of Selunnara and Thultanthar into the planes just before the destruction of their land.

During roughly the same period, the dyoph armies of the Isles of Woe on Oerth conquered the City of Brass and thus began their centuries-long domination of inner planar travel. The Baklunish empire on Oerth warred with them for decades, their armies clashing only on other planes, but the doom of the Isles of Woe ultimately came from elsewhere. In the Deep Ethereal, the reclusive ethergaunts took exception to the probing of the Mage-Priests of Woe into their culture, and sent a terrible plague that only ended when the Isles of Woe was swallowed whole by the waters that surrounded it, and disappeared into the Ethereal and the ethergaunts' clutches. With their Isles of Woe nemesis out of the way, the Baklunish had less reason to travel the planes in numbers, and neither did their rivals the Suloise, and the colonies founded by both peoples slowly escaped their control. Still, the Suloise and Baklunish of Oerth remained a fairly strong planar force until the destruction of both their empires a millenium ago. For part of the following millennium, the Alphatian-descended Flaemish people were busy wandering the Outer Planes, traveling between planar communities and doubtless making their tongue commonly heard among planewalkers.

Having shifted from an Azlant-derived Planar Common to an Imaskari-derived one to a Netherese-derived one to a mingling of the tongues of the Isles of Woe, Alphatia, and the Suel and Baklunish, to a Flaemish patois heard in many planar burgs, the last 500 years have clearly seen one Prime Material civilization influence the planes more than any other, and that's the world of Ortho, from which the Harmonium hailed. Particularly in the last two centuries, the Harmonium have dominated not only their own world, but perhaps a dozen colony worlds, the gate-town of Fortitude, and the entire plane of Arcadia to the extent that their philosophy has changed the basic structure of the plane. Of course, they've also risen to become one of the 15 great factions of the City of Doors, which decides what will be the Planar Common tongue more than anywhere else.

It seems clear, then, that Planar Common currently owes more to the common tongue of Ortho than anywhere else. As long-lived as many planars are, it's certain that words from older tongues will still survive, but for the most part Ortho sets the standard, to the extent that "even the greenest prime" from the world of Ortho can get by on Sigil's streets.

One thing about that list: if you like the idea of the "Paradoxalists," I'd probably base them now on Faction Paradox, which is a pretty cool organization with a distinct hierarchy and fun toys like weapons that only their shadows carry.

Here was something I wrote much later about the factions that might have been around during the time of Vartus Timlin's banishment. There were supposed to be twelve factols who met to discuss what was to be done about the Expansionist faction - but which factions were involved?

"...the Foundation stone where the Twelve Factols met to beg the Lady for her support against the Expansionists almost a thousand years ago." - In the Cage: A Guide to Sigil

The Twelve Factols:

1. Dustmen: Skall (male lich wizard 19)
2. Bleak Cabal: Ji Shen (female human wu jen 5/alienist 3)
3. Fated: Skek (male bariaur fighter 4/rogue 2)
4. Sodkillers: Aeson Grimtooth (male gnome ranger 12)
5. Sons of Mercy: Mel of the Circle (female human favored soul 14)
6. Incanterium: Ippo (female kobold sorcerer 15/Mage of the Arcane Order 10)
7. Forgesmiths (a faction devoted to creation): Halzir (male azer expert 9)
8. Beautification League (a faction devoted to beauty, eventually declines into the Rosebringer sect): Banael (female aasimar aristocrat 10)
9. Proto-Xaositects (Discordant Opposition): Madwand (green slaad wizard 1/wild mage 9)
10.Proto-Doomguard (a faction devoted to destruction, soon to be wiped out by Vecna): Gwyneth (female hoary hunter)
11.Regulators (from the Epic Level Handbook): Mella Theeg (female advanced treant Wizard 36/bard 20)
12.Gleaners (from the Epic Level Handbook): Astra (female human ranger 21/agent retriever 2)

Factions not represented among the Twelve:

Free League (no factol)
Revolutionary League (no factol)
Expansionists (factol Vartus Timlin)

Finally, I recently wrote a bit on the proto-Doomguard and proto-Xaositect factions at the time of the Great Upheaval:

Spoiler: Highlight to view
The factions that merged to form the Doomguard included the Sinkers, a criminal cartel that specialized in procuring weapons from the Lower Planes and the Inner Planes. The Sinkers were led by an ancient, cynical leShay called Gaheris the Hunter, who claimed to have existed since the doom of the previous multiverse but now spent his existence utterly bored, amusing himself with petty crime until the current multiverse wound down. An ally of theirs was Cauld the Crippled, a mage who had made Citadel Cavitius his base of operations. Cauld had become obsessed with studying the force of entropy - he had lost the use of his own limbs after being hit by one of the Negative Energy Plane's entropic seeds, spending the rest of his life without working legs but with a mind made sharper by his suffering. Cauld, in turn, made many other contacts during his explorations, beginning with his own three followers, each a powerful adventurer who had been similarly scarred by entropic forces: Eclem Boot, who was a disembodied brain housed in an automaton; Elise, who was a chaotically unstable, continually transforming creature; and Vicente, a seemingly human man who had become permanently possessed by a negative energy being. Together, they called themselves the Doomlords (or, sometimes, the Four Horsemen).

As the Upheaval began, the Sinkers joined with the Doomlords. With them was a group of doomsday prophets known as the Watchtower. The Watchtower were known for their distinctive masks fitted with working clocks - some of them were masks, at least, though rumors had it the Watchtower first formed in Mechanus, and its eldest members were half-constructs created by the modrons, with clocks literally replacing their heads. Their symbol was a falling clock tower, and they celebrated the destruction of their original home. Together, they became known as the Doomguard, combining the weapons expertise of the Sinkers with the talents of the Doomlords and the Watchtower. Surprisingly, their initial goal was not to destroy Sigil, but to use their expertise in matters entropic to defend the city against entropy. They used their powerful weapons and magic to police the city, replacing the city's ancient Watchman Guild as its police force.

Another faction that formed from numerous unrelated groups was the Discordant Opposition - the factions that came together to make them included the Dissolutionists, the Bacchae, and the Children of Typhon. Never coherent as a faction, in fact celebrating incoherence, they fragmented around 93 years later. A large group of them, preaching self-righteously about the philosophical need to oppose everything, including fellow members of the Discordant Opposition, became known simply as the Opposition, eventually leaving Sigil for the Inner Planes where they believed the clash of opposites was most dramatic. The Opposers had no friends in the City of Doors, opposing as they did every philosophical point of view as a matter of principle, and were not able to remain in it without their union with the less-adversarial Discordants.

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Re: Pre Great Upheaval Sigil

This is outstanding, epic, nothing I've seen comes close, so many worlds and groups connected. Just a few questions - isn't there too much difference between Mella Theeg's power and other factols? do you think the Netherese could have influenced Planar Common during their century long war in the Outlands (from Finder's Bane novel)?

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Re: Pre Great Upheaval Sigil

Also the influence the gith races back when they were human and wandered the planes.

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cromlich wrote:
isn't there too much difference between Mella Theeg's power and other factols?

Probably. I took Mella Theeg and Madwand directly from the Epic Level Handbook. They might have been lower level a thousand years ago, but Mella Theeg is supposed to be possibly millions of years old, so she probably hasn't changed that much.

Actually, Madwand is a wizard 20/loremaster 11 death slaad in the Epic Level Handbook, so I made his 1000-year-younger self considerably weaker. Mella Theeg is still the same, though.

Quote:
do you think the Netherese could have influenced Planar Common during their century long war in the Outlands (from Finder's Bane novel)?

I've read Tymora's Luck, but I've never read Finder's Bane. They may well have, though. When were the Netherese in the Outlands? Who were they warring with?

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Re: Pre Great Upheaval Sigil

It does not say

Finder's Bane wrote:
"Behold the pillars of Cat's Gate," Jedidiah said, motioning to the two stone towers. "Or rather, the tops of the pillars of Cat's Gate. The majority of the gate is buried in the sand. According to old texts, the pillars rose higher than the Flaming Tower. When the kingdom of Netheril was in flower, there was a floating citadel here, one that made the Temple in the Sky look like a pebble. The wizards who built the gate commanded a strip of land along the Desertsmouth Mountains five hundred miles long and a hundred miles across. The Lost Vale was one of their outlying colonies. Not satisfied with what they had, the wizards set their sights on the Outlands. They bore into that plane with their magic, built the pillars to hold open the gate, then marched their armies through to conquer the lands beyond in their name.

"What happened?" Holly asked, shielding her eyes with her hand to observe the pillars. "Other beings, more powerful than the wizards, marched their armies out of the gate into Netheril to conquer it in their name," Jedidiah replied. After a century or so of warfare, the encroaching desert sand became a blessing—covering the surrounding city, making the land useless to conquering armies, and sealing the gate from detection on either side.

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Re: Pre Great Upheaval Sigil

Interesting. If the sand of Anauroch was encroaching on the Kingdom of Netheril, then the portal must have been built very late in their history; no earlier than -550 DR, a century before the Netherese first noticed the encroachment, and no later than -439 DR (a century before Karsus's Folly).

That must be a reference to the Seven Sigils War, which Dungeon #170 said happened in the fifth century before the Dalereckoning (the -400s DR). So let's say it was literally the entire fifth century and the war lasted between -500 CY and -400 CY. The Netherese summoned Maram of the Great Spear and other elemental beings to counter an invasion from the Outer Planes, and Maram escaped.

Quote:
In the fifth century before Dalereckoning, the arrogant Empire of Netheril constructed a massive gate in the Gods’ Legion Mountains (modern-day Desertsmouth Mountains), foolishly seeking to conquer settlements in the outer planes beyond Toril. Unfortunately for the archwizards, immortal beings more powerful than themselves poured through the gate into Netheril. High in intelligence though lacking in wisdom,the Netherese archwizards of Rdiuz sought to counteract the immortal invaders by pitting them against their longtime nemesis, elementals. Knowing of the legend of the Monument of the Ancients, the foolish archwizards intentionally sabotaged the Anchor of Chaos, releasing a primordial and his minions into the Realms. After raging for more than a century, the horrendous conflict known to historians as the Seven Sigils War ended with the Netherese finally imprisoning or banishing the great majority of planar beings, both elemental and immortal. One primordial, however, escaped.

I'm not certain what they wanted to conquer in the Outlands, but my guess is that they had some idea that they could gain control of Gond's realm, Oghma's realm, and perhaps some key gate-towns. Maybe even the Marketplace Eternal, too.

It doesn't sound to me like they spent a century in the Outlands. It sounds to me that they were in the Outlands briefly, and then had to retreat while a Blood War army spent a century trying to conquer Netheril through the gate they made. First the other beings marched into Netheril, and then there was a century of warfare. I think it must have been fiends; if it had been merely rilmani or other locals, they would have been content to chase the Netherese back into their own world, and not tried so determinedly to conquer Netheril.

Further, I'm going to say it must have been the baatezu. There isn't really any historical rivalry between elementals and tanar'ri or yugoloths, but because Dungeon #170 was a fourth edition issue the author of the adventure, Brian R. James, must have been thinking of the rivalry between elemental demons and outer planar devils in 4th edition's version of the Blood War. I can imagine some kind of rivalry between devilkind and Maram of the Great Spear in earlier editions too, though it isn't as obvious what the source of that rivalry might be. Perhaps they fought on different sides in the war between the Wind-Dukes of Aaqa and the Queen of Chaos.

I don't think a Netherese army marching around the Outlands is likely to influence the local language much, any more than a Blood War army entering the Outlands does.

One thing that would have influenced planar languages was the emigration of Netherese arcanists to the Demiplane of Nightmares in -681 CY. That probably wouldn't have affected Sigil much, but it would have made Netherese a language spoken in the demiplane for a time, and among natives of that demiplane like the diabolus, feyr, malfera, and neh-thalggu. Dragon #327 states that the native language of the diaboli is almost impossible for humanoids to pronounce, so it would have been necessary for them to learn Netherese, rather than the Netherese learning to speak Diabolan; on the other hand, they could have both used Abyssal to communicate with one another.

The Netherese first began exploring the Shadow Plane in -553 CY, so their influence would start spreading through that plane as well at that point.

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Re: Pre Great Upheaval Sigil

That's surprising, I'd never expect for such obscure piece to be expanded on. The Blood War is the most logical choice, but another type of planar incursion would be interesting for a change. Did they change Narfell-Raumathar war in the 4th edition - elementals against demons? That reminds me of another group of planewalkers - Empires of the Shining Sea at the beginning has a legend that Calim and his Djen were enslaved to some ancient wizards.

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Re: Pre Great Upheaval Sigil

cromlich wrote:
That's surprising, I'd never expect for such obscure piece to be expanded on. The Blood War is the most logical choice, but another type of planar incursion would be interesting for a change.

Now that I think of it, it could just as easily be celestials or inevitables; I could easily see either group trying agressively to end the Netherese threat once and for all, and being opposed by evil elementals. Or formians? I can't imagine slaadi remaining focused enough to pursue a century-long war.

Quote:
Did they change Narfell-Raumathar war in the 4th edition - elementals against demons?

The Narfelli summoned Eltab and the Raumathari summoned Kossuth's avatar. I don't think that's changed between editions.

I'm not sure what world's mages could have enslaved the Djen before -7800 DR, but given the historic ties between Earth and Toril in Ed Greenwood's campaign, I'm tempted to say it was Earth, perhaps ancient Mesopotamia or Iran. It could also have been mages in Zakhara, considering the Djen almost certainly brought Zakharan slaves with them when they settled Calimshan. Given the time period it could have been Imaskar or an Imaskari colony. Athas is a possibility too. They wouldn't need to be planewalkers, just powerful conjurers or sha'ir.

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Re: Pre Great Upheaval Sigil

Isn't Earth nonmagical? Could be one of those parallel worlds, Yarth, Urth.

Back to pre-Upheaval Sigil. Do you think Sigil's fall from the golden age - bejeweled state - is a consequence of Aoskar's death? Or there was another equally devastating event.

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Well, Ed Greenwood's original reason for naming his setting the Forgotten Realms is that the Realms were where magical creatures went after being forgotten on Earth; Earth isn't magical anymore because so much of what was magical about it left through portals to Faerun. But thinking about it further, the Djen were more likely imprisoned on a world with both humans and halflings. Empires of the Shining Sea suggested the Djen might have come through a time gate from Zakhara's future, which would fit, but Demihuman Deities suggests that the Djen brought the first halflings to Toril. If this is true (it might not be the origin of all of Toril's halflings) that would make the existence of halflings a temporal loop, with halflings being brought back in time to become their own ancestors. It's more likely, I think, that they came from some world that already had halflings on it. Halflings aren't really associated with ancient Earth, unless the Djen were actually enslaved on Tolkien's Middle Earth. Athas is still a possibility, and theoretically Oerth or Golarion.

I think Sigil declined due to sheer age. As the millennia passed, time and entropy wore down the once-shining surfaces and turned it into the grimy, soot-stained city we love today. If it had literal jewels, they've long since been lost or stolen. I think the wear of time is enough of an explanation without bringing a single event into it. But probably the creation of the Lower Ward during the uprising of the primes with the Shadow-Sorcelled Key was more devastating than the death of Aoskar (which only destroyed the Shattered Temple neighborhood), as was the Blood War incursion that created the Slags in the Hive, and the Great Upheaval, and the war with the Mercykillers that left three factions destroyed, and the war between the Doomguard and Harmonium when the Hardheads first entered the Cage, and other massive planar events - the wars between the Wind-Dukes and Chaos, Gith's rebellion and the fall of the illithid empire, and so on.

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ripvanwormer wrote:
It's more likely, I think, that they came from some world that already had halflings on it. Halflings aren't really associated with ancient Earth, unless the Djen were actually enslaved on Tolkien's Middle Earth. Athas is still a possibility, and theoretically Oerth or Golarion.

Another possibility is Anadia from Spelljammer, a world where halflings dominate.

Quote:
I think Sigil declined due to sheer age. As the millennia passed, time and entropy wore down the once-shining surfaces and turned it into the grimy, soot-stained city we love today. If it had literal jewels, they've long since been lost or stolen. I think the wear of time is enough of an explanation without bringing a single event into it. But probably the creation of the Lower Ward during the uprising of the primes with the Shadow-Sorcelled Key was more devastating than the death of Aoskar (which only destroyed the Shattered Temple neighborhood), as was the Blood War incursion that created the Slags in the Hive, and the Great Upheaval, and the war with the Mercykillers that left three factions destroyed, and the war between the Doomguard and Harmonium when the Hardheads first entered the Cage, and other massive planar events - the wars between the Wind-Dukes and Chaos, Gith's rebellion and the fall of the illithid empire, and so on.

Ok, I thought Aoskar's presence could inspire prosperity. I love the soot-stained city, tough in our campaigns post-Faction War changes included the start of a new golden age - sort of following the Unity of Rings principle.

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ripvanwormer wrote:

During roughly the same period, the dyoph armies of the Isles of Woe on Oerth conquered the City of Brass and thus began their centuries-long domination of inner planar travel.

Dyoph? what kind of creatures are they - I doubt any of the Prime civilizations could conquer the City of Brass, not even Ortho.

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Dyoph? what kind of creatures are they

No one knows. They're mentioned in the description of the Codex of the Infinite Planes in the old, old D&D book Eldritch Wizardry. The wizard Tzunk used them to carry the Codex for him.

"... and thereupon the voice belled forth in tones of hollow iron and spoke of the Coming of the City of the Gods. Such future events interested me not, so I gave the command: 'Answer in th ...' (here the fragment becomes entirely illegible) . . . so knowing both the secret and the spell which would unlock the Way to this horde of the Demon Prince Nql . . . (another break in the writing unfortunately occurs here). . . gathered the nine as required and proceeded forth. With me in addition were the dyoph servants necessary to transport the Code, for I would not leave it behind on even so perilous a journey as this." (Here the entire fragment ends.)

"Dyoph" might be the name of a species or it might just mean that there are two of them, since Book of Artifacts (for 2e) just said the Codex took two strong men to carry. But I imagined it might be a servitor race summoned by the Codex, and the Wizard-Priest of the Isles of Woe might have had entire armies of them.

Quote:
- I doubt any of the Prime civilizations could conquer the City of Brass, not even Ortho.

The wizard Tzunk tried to do it with his copy of the Codex, but he failed miserably because it was just him and his dyoph servants against four million efreet.

But I thought that if an entire civilization had the Codex, as the Isles of Woe did, perhaps they could do much better. Perhaps Tzunk mistakenly thought he could do it because someone else had done so before him, but he had no grasp of the vast armies and organization of the Wizard-Priests of Woe.

Just an idea.

cromlich's picture
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Re: Pre Great Upheaval Sigil

If the name means anything it could be serpentine. I don't have the old books with the Codex, but I was very impressed with the description in Artifacts and Legends [Pathfinder], the most interesting item along with the Book of the Damned. The titans created the Codex in the Great Beyond, I think it's a good explanation, maybe it's related to Ophion from Greek mythology.

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Re: Pre Great Upheaval Sigil

Rip, one more question, how does the Doomguard who guard against entropy fit with the Godsmen history? At the time when factol Augy died, the Doomguard believed that the desire to ascend to godhood opposed entropy.

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Re: Pre Great Upheaval Sigil

It does. They want to keep entropy from moving too quickly (iindividual faction members disagree), but they don't want it to reverse. My interpretation of the Doomguard as Sigil's police force prior to the Harmonium's arrival comes from Julian's work in the 3rd edition PS setting; it seemed like a really sensible and interesting way to reconcile some contradictions in the Factol's Manifesto.

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Re: Pre Great Upheaval Sigil

I thought if it is possible that the Godsmen philosophy - or a part of it - existed earlier during the Imaskar civilization. Would be interesting if they've built a construct out of divine essences.

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