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"Power" players

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Fri, 2006-02-10 20:39
#1
Wretch
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"Power" players

TSR once published the "Immortals" system for 1st ed D&D IIRC.

Recently there has also been "Nobilis" which was an attempt to create a deity level of RPGing, shorn of millions of little charts by bringing a diceless system. It seems symptomatic of RPG'ers to seek ever more powerful character, if only to expand their range of options ("I poke him with my pointed stick some more" isn't the stuff of legends).

Has any thought been given on this forum to expanding to true "epic" level play, where one gets to play a Lich Queen, battened by the adoration of her Gith worshippers, a Proxie who runs the risk, much like an apostle, of having a subsidiary cult spring up around HIM, or a Power, with a small p, able to run the odd miracle, but not up to shaking the firmament with his footsteps?

A great deal would depend on the metarules which circumscribe even the activities of the Powers. Rules on oaths, obligations to worshippers, areas such as the Spire which are off limits. It brings the tactical considerations of RPGs into a different level.

I am, of course, inspired by Gaiman, Pratchett and others who touched this type of play in their writings.

Any thoughts?

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Sat, 2006-02-11 11:06
#2
Clueless
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"Power" players

My gaming group plays up to level 30 at times, but often our 'bad guys' are well beyond our ability still. It makes for an odd mix at such a high level to still think of yourself as easily defeatable.

One thing I'd *really* like to see at a high level game though is a better epic magic system. The one in the ELH *blows*.

Sat, 2006-02-11 12:21
(Reply to #2) #3
Wretch
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I've never been up that high and I can't imagine short of Powers having satisfactory adversaries at that level. Though every time I think that, I remember a Dragon Article "Tuckers Kobolds". Laughing out loud

I am unfamiliar with Epic Level play. What are it's magic system charecteristics and what don't you like? Holy smokes, how many spells do you get at 30th level?

I am tempted to digress in how exactly does a fighter of any level compare with a Wizard who can create towers and teleport, no matter what the combat and hit point disparity, but I won't Smiling

Sat, 2006-02-11 12:42
(Reply to #3) #4
Clueless
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Well... considering at that point the bad guys in our game were *baernaloth* that should tell you some of what we were dealing with. We were still pretty solidly outgunned.

A level 30 wizzie doesn't get as much as you'd think - remember - they cap at 4 spells per level on the chart for spells cast per day. So, sure you can have 50 levels - but you still get only four 1st level spells plus your int bonus. Also with the epic rules they don't get higher slots automatically they have to pay a feat to get 10th and up (a feat per slot mind you). So it's not as impressive as you'd think.

Our biggest beef with the epic spell chasting for the ELH was that the price to learn and then cast was not comparable to the payoff. Especially not comparable when compared to equilivant casting in the 'normal' spell system. Plus, honestly, it seems a little bland to me.

And if you ever - at any point in your career - took a prestige class that wasn't just a refinement of your original class, kiss any of the nifty feats and epic casting goodbye within any reasonable level range. (No shadowjumping sorcerers here...) The ELH strongly favored characters who'd never customized with a Pr.Class, a complete and total reversal of the style of play that had been encouraged up until that book.

Sat, 2006-02-11 22:22
(Reply to #4) #5
nick012000
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"Power" players

Umm... no, the prerequisites for Epic Spellcasting are the follows:

"SRD" wrote:
EPIC SPELLCASTING [EPIC] Prerequisite: Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level arcane spells. OR Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level divine spells. OR Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (nature) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level divine spells.

And because of the open ended nature of it, you can do some absolutely horrible things with Epic magic, especially if you're using Lost Empires of Faerun.

I remember seeing someone posting on the WotC boards a Mythal that affected them (Personal range) that amounted to "I am now a god". Immune to damage, immune to magic, can cast high level spells at will...

Sun, 2006-02-12 00:08
(Reply to #5) #6
Clueless
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Yes.

Now - go review the requirements to actually *develop and cast* an epic spell.

Sun, 2006-02-12 01:00
(Reply to #6) #7
eldersphinx
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The as-written epic spells are not that spectacular. It's the fact that you've got write-your-own-spell rules, with utterly tweakable mechanics, that turn epic spellcasting into a munchkin's wet dream. (And as a sideline, make wizards - whose casting stat also fuels Spellcraft checks - into the most powerful class in existence, bar none.)

Take a Wiz21, with 24 ranks in Spellcraft, a 32 Int (+6 of which comes from an enhancement bonus in items), Skill Focus (Spellcraft) and Magical Aptitude. This worthy can take 10 on Spellcraft checks and get DC 50 effects. That's a Fortify Intelligence effect at +32 - which increases Our Wiz's Int to 58 (the new effect overrides the old enhancement bonus), adds +13 to all spell save DCs, provides a whole raft of additional spell slots, and boosts Int-based skills besides. Like, say, Spellcraft. Our Wiz still has an epic spell slot open, and can get DC 63 effects with ease now. Worth 450,000 gold, 18,000 XP and nine days to develop? You betcha. A Headband of Epic Intellect +10 costs 10% more for less than a third of the benefit.

And we haven't considered mitigating factors yet. Willing to spend 10 minutes in the morning casting the spell, rather than 1? Tack a +9 onto your final Intelligence bonus. Got a Clr17 cohort able to burn a 9th-level spell slot in conjunction with your work? Another +9. The "Mythal" factor that Nick references is particularly obnoxious - it cuts the DC by half, and gets applied after you add in absolutely everything else. Epic spellcasting gets scarily obnoxious when handed over to powergaming teens who are absolutely determined to get every last possible point of benefit out of the epic spellcasting rules. It gets sick out, real fast.

Sun, 2006-02-12 23:11
(Reply to #7) #8
Wretch
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Yikes!

How does it compare to WOD Mage, characters in the upper realms, if any of you have played such games?

Tue, 2006-02-14 23:16
(Reply to #8) #9
Spragg
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"Power" players

The nice thing is that in the Planes is that there's usually a bigger fish. And if there isn't, the DM can easily justify one... most of the time, anyway.

Comparing the ELH and Mage: the Ascension isn't really feasible - D&D spellcasting never gets as spontaneous and customized, even at higher levels. Divine Ranks (i.e. deities) would be closer, with powers like Alter Reality...

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