Power keys and spell keys, total mess

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Felenthir Enthelion's picture
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Power keys and spell keys, total mess

I usually play with 3rd ed, but I'm interested in the key sistem of the 2nd ed. Smiling

Can someone explain something more, the PS setting books are not clear.  

Do mortals native of an outer plane need spel keys to cast spells on their home plane? What about outsiders?

Do you need a spell key for using a magic ability? And what about a magic item (like a cristal sphere on Carceri) 

Are Spell keys necessaryfor all magic users? (wizard, bards, paladines, assassins, blackguard, clerics etc)

Does a clerics need spell keys to cast spells on the planes like a wizard does? 

Does a power key works as an universal spell key, beside enanching spells?

Does a power key allow a priest to cast spells in another Outer Plane without loosing levels?  (for istance, if Lathander gives a PK to one of his priests on Elysium, can he use it on Baator?)

Last but not least, What the hell is a Wild Mage in 2nd ed???? They are EVERYWHERE in PS books. 

Apart from this, it seems very complicated. I'm starting to realize why WoC decided to change the rules in 3ed. 

 

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Spell keys are only

Spell keys are only necessary when using spells that otherwise wouldn't work on that plane (for example, summoning an elemental on an Outer Plane won't work without a spell key, which causes a "pseudo-elemental" to form out of the outer plane's substance). Outsiders and other natives of the plane need them just as much as anyone else, but only for those spells, and only if they're using arcane magic. They only affect arcane spells. Clerics don't need spell keys; divine spells work the same way on every plane, although clerics cast spells at a lower level of power depending on where their gods live. Power keys allow a cleric to cast spells at full power on another plane. They don't act as universal spell keys because clerics don't need spell keys.

 Power keys usually work only for a specific mission, on the plane the cleric's god designates. So if Lathander wants the cleric to cast spells at full power on Baator, he can give the cleric a power key that allows the cleric to do that. It won't work in the Abyss.

Wild mages were a wizard class introduced in the 2nd edition accessory Tome of Magic. In 3rd edition, they appear as a prestige class in Complete Arcane

 

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Thank you! Now it is

Thank you! Now it is clearer.

What about magic items that reproduce arcane magic? Do I need a spell key for using them (like a crystal sphere on carceri)?

What about spell like abilities?  Take for istance a Solar resurrection spell like ability.  Can he use it in a Lower Plane where is altered without a key?

 So, spell keys are for all the kind of arcane magic (sorcerers, bards, wizards, assassins and so on). That is clear.

 Power keys are for paladins, druids, favourite souls and blackguards too? Do they loose spell levels too if they abandon the plane of their powers?

Jem
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Any divine magic will be

Any divine magic will be affected similarly and can obtain similar advantage from a power key.

While spell-like abilities are a 3e term and spell keys were a 2e concept, the magic traits listed in the SRD affect spell-like abilities and spells equally.  So I believe it is safe to say that a spell-like ability requires a spell key or power key, while extraordinary and supernatural abilities do not.

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Jem wrote: Any divine magic

Jem wrote:

Any divine magic will be affected similarly and can obtain similar advantage from a power key.

 So a paladin of Bahamut in the Abyss will loose something like 8 caster levels? 

Paladins have a caster level that is half their class level. Does that paladin loose all the levels or only half of them?

Jem
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Subtract the planar

Subtract the planar separation from his number of paladin levels, and use the new figure for determining spellcasting abilities.

So a 10th level paladin of Bahamut will cast divine spells as a 2nd level paladin -- that is to say, he won't, for he has no caster level.  A 14th level paladin of Bahamut in the Abyss will cast spells based on his paladin abilities as a 6th level paladin: he has 3 caster levels from this class, and can prepare one 1st level spell, plus any bonus 1st level spells his Wisdom entitles him to.  His spell-like abilities (Detect Evil, Remove Disease, calling his mount) are based on a caster level of 3; turning undead and smiting evil are based on class levels, which do not change.

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Clear! What about casting

Clear!

What about casting spells that are connected to the ethereal plane on the Outer Planes? (etherael jaunt, for istance) and spellsthat need the astral to work (llike a wish used to mime a resurrection) casted in the Outer planes... Are thery really impossible to cast or you need a key?  

While spell-like abilities are a 3e term and spell keys were a 2e concept, the magic traits listed in the SRD affect spell-like abilities and spells equally.  So I believe it is safe to say that a spell-like ability requires a spell key or power key,

  But spell like abilities exist in 2Ed too. Take for istance the ones of the planetar and of the solar.  They can cast rise dead. The problem is if it has to be considered an arcane or divine power. Can a planetar in the inner planes use his  rise dead spel llike ability? Or he needs a spell key?

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I believe the exception to

I believe the exception to the rule is scrolls; they function based on the nature of the plane on which they were written (so a wise Priest would write all their scrolls while on the home turf of their god). The exception to the exception is spells that require a planar pathway or conduit to work (so scrolls that summon elementals are still bound by the rules (and require keys), as are extradimensional magics such as Astral Travel and the like)

Jem
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Felenthir Enthelion

Felenthir Enthelion wrote:
What about casting spells that are connected to the ethereal plane on the Outer Planes? (ethereal jaunt, for instance) and spells that need the astral to work (like a wish used to mime a resurrection) cast in the Outer planes... Are they really impossible to cast or do you need a key?

Spell keys can permit arcane spells to ignore dimensional pathway restrictions.  A wish, it's safe to say, ignores just about all restrictions.  ;^)

Quote:
But spell like abilities exist in 2Ed too. Take for instance the ones of the planetar and of the solar. They can cast raise dead. The problem is if it has to be considered an arcane or divine power. Can a planetar in the inner planes use his raise dead spell like ability? Or does he need a spell key?

The planetar is converted in the SRD, casting divine spells with a caster level of 17.  Raise dead is one of the planetar's spell-like abilities.  It is a 5th level cleric spell, castable by a 14th level caster, and a planetar is at -3 caster levels on any Inner Plane, so the planetar would be able to cast that spell.  On the other hand, it would not be able to use its earthquake ability (an 8th level spell), on an Inner Plane or on a plane more than three planes around the Great Ring from its home plane. 

To determine whether a monster can use a particular ability on a given plane, check out its 3e conversion.  Use an official or PSCS conversion if you have one available, or if you need to, convert it to 3e personally.  Spells and spell-like abilities will be affected by diminished caster level; supernatural and extraordinary abilities will not be.  The 3e version of any monster will have all its abilities given one of these labels.

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The planetar is converted

The planetar is converted in the SRD, casting divine spells with a caster level of 17.  Raise dead is one of the planetar's spell-like abilities.  It is a 5th level cleric spell, castable by a 14th level caster, and a planetar is at -3 caster levels on any Inner Plane, so the planetar would be able to cast that spell.  On the other hand, it would not be able to use its earthquake ability (an 8th level spell), on an Inner Plane or on a plane more than three planes around the Great Ring from its home plane.

But on the Monster Manual 3.5there is written:

"For creatures with spell-like abilities, a designated caster level defines how difficult it is to dispel their spell-like effects and to define any level-dependent variables (such as range and duration) the abilities might have. The creature’s caster level never affects which spell-like abilities the creature has; sometimes the given caster level is lower than the level a spellcasting character would need to cast the spell of the same name. If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is: 10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicate.

Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster’s spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.

So, maybe the reduction of the caster level doesn't give any problem to the divine spell like abilities. What do you think? 

But spell keys for arcane spell like abilities are necessary.

Another question, on the Prime Material, does a divine caster loose spellcaster levels?  After all, if a god lives in one of the Outer Plane, the power has to pass throw the astral first. How does it works?

 Second question, how many levels would a sword forged in Union demiplane loose in one of the outer planes?

 

 

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Quote:Another question, on

Quote:
Another question, on the Prime Material, does a divine caster loose spellcaster levels?  After all, if a god lives in one of the Outer Plane, the power has to pass throw the astral first. How does it works?

The Prime Material is an exception to the normal rules. Divine casters don't lose any spell levels there.

Quote:
  Second question, how many levels would a sword forged in Union demiplane loose in one of the outer planes?

Union is in a demiplane (called Haven), which in the Planescape cosmology can reliably be found in the Ethereal Plane (though there are a few exceptions, known as half-worlds, connected to  Yggdrasil and other planar paths). It loses one point in the Ethereal, two points on the Prime, three points in the Astral, and four points in the Outer Planes. Bad place to build magic weapons. Though I don't use this rule, personally. I don't think it adds to the game's fun. 

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Union is in a demiplane

Union is in a demiplane (called Haven), which in the Planescape cosmology can reliably be found in the Ethereal Plane (though there are a few exceptions, known as half-worlds, connected to  Yggdrasil and other planar paths). It loses one point in the Ethereal, two points on the Prime, three points in the Astral, and four points in the Outer Planes. Bad place to build magic weapons.

In the Ethereal? Couldn't Heaven just be a demiplane of the Astral? I know it has portals that leads to the Outer Planes too.

Or maybe a place like union should has some properties on the astral and inany other big plane of the mulitverse. After all, Mercanes trade everywhere, so they could allow the spellcasters of union to create weapons and armors in these secondary places. 

 

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The Astral doesn't have

The Astral doesn't have demiplanes - those are a feature of the Etheral specifically.

 Now a clever Mercane in a setting that still uses these rules would make sure his shop has as large a series of portals as he can afford to all over the place. And simply build a forge on the opposide side of each portal. So you can buy a sword from the Astral wing, or the Prime, or the Inner Planes, without having to have his blacksmiths do more than walk into the next room down the hallway.

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But does a weapon become

But does a weapon become attuned to a plane when is forged or when it is enhanced magically and turned into a magic sword?

 

 

Jem
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Where it's enchanted.  If

Where it's enchanted.  If it has been re-enchanted, use the latest plane.

As for your comment on caster level not affecting spell-like abilities, it seems you have a clear interpretation which can be applied consistently, which is all that's really needed.

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Thank you. You gave me the

Thank you. You gave me the tip of where to search Laughing out loud

Also, I was interested to know what happen to those divine spellcasters who doesn't worship a god, like the druids or the clerics of a philosophical idea (think of the Master of The Bones, in Sigil catacombs, he worships the idea of death) when they travel to the Outer or Inner Planes. Does they loose spellcaster levels too?

Jem
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Huh... The Planewalker's

Huh... The Planewalker's Handbook doesn't say, and I don't know where else one might seek that information.  I suspect the possibility was overlooked.  As a house judgment, I would rule that those spellcasters never lose levels!  Lucky them.

Now the bad news: they don't have powers to bend the laws of reality for them, so I would say their divine spells suffer from dimensional pathway restrictions, at the very least, and possibly suffer from all the same restrictions as arcane spells, depending on how you want to conceptualize philosophy-driven magic.  This might open up the possibility of a rare sort of "divine spell key" that could mitigate those restrictions for those casters.  I would think it would be very likely that such "keys" would be behaviors in line with the philosophy, like a believer in death having to, say, eat some meat for a low-level spell, and sacrifice a live creature for a high-level spell.  On the other hand, you might want to ignore all of that and simply say that someone dedicated to a philosophy is in a better position when it comes to such spellcasting.  After all, the Athar priests of the Great Unknown don't seem to be mentioned as suffering from dimensional pathway restrictions, only from the lack of power keys.

Another option I just thought of would be to assign the caster's home plane as his "base" for counting level loss. 

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I'd go with the cleric's

I'd go with the cleric's plane of alignment. If a lawful good cleric worships Death, she probably does it in a lawful good way, right? Therefore it's a lawful good aspect of Death empowering her spells - which would be found in Mount Celestia, Arcadia, or Bytopia, depending on the cleric's slant on the subject.

Well, actually, Death and Entropy are pretty much embodied on the Negative Energy Plane, so Dustmen and Doomguard clerics of their faction's philosophy might get their spells from there, but other philosophical clerics would probably get their spells from their plane of alignment. 

 

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  Reduction in Power for

 

Reduction in Power for divine casters and reduction in magic weapon "pluses" were actually my least favorite element of 2e Planescape. The idea behind it is a good one but in practice it's just a huge hassle. I usually make the loss of power less severe or just do away with it entirely in my games. Spell keys aren't actually too bad and modified spells can actually be fun. Gives a change of pace for the casters in the party and encourages them to use the new spell variations creatively.

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Now the bad news: they

Now the bad news: they don't have powers to bend the laws of reality for them, so I would say their divine spells suffer from dimensional pathway restrictions, at the very least, and possibly suffer from all the same restrictions as arcane spells, depending on how you want to conceptualize philosophy-driven magic.

Couldn't be that the plane itself give them the power to ignore the dimensional pathway restrictions? 

ripvanwormer wrote:

I'd go with the cleric's plane of alignment. If a lawful good cleric worships Death, she probably does it in a lawful good way, right? Therefore it's a lawful good aspect of Death empowering her spells - which would be found in Mount Celestia, Arcadia, or Bytopia, depending on the cleric's slant on the subject.

Well, actually, Death and Entropy are pretty much embodied on the Negative Energy Plane, so Dustmen and Doomguard clerics of their faction's philosophy might get their spells from there, but other philosophical clerics would probably get their spells from their plane of alignment.

 And for a druid not connected to a god like Silvanus?  Could the Prime Material, the Beastlands or the Outlands be the source of their powers?

Jem
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Belief is a powerful thing

Belief is a powerful thing and may itself give the ability to ignore dimensional pathway restrictions, as a standard feature of divine magic.  Now, the fluff text says that it's powers who bend the rules for their worshipers, but as has been pointed out Athar clerics don't seem to suffer dimensional pathway restrictions from not having anyone to bend the rules for them, so perhaps the narrator of the fluff text isn't fully accurate.

In general, I think philosophical clerics should either be assigned no level loss anywhere (which puts them in a favorable position with respect to other divine casters) but suffer dimensional pathway restrictions (balancing out the favorable position somewhat), or should count their levels losses from a specific plane like anyone else but not suffer dimensional pathway restrictions.  They don't get power keys handed to them, so on the whole they're slightly penalized.  As a slight compensation, the plane from which they draw their power should probably be fairly centrally located.

The Athar count their level losses starting from the Astral, the Believers of the Source from the Ethereal.  It would certainly stand to reason that elemental priests such as Athasian clerics of Rain (Water) would count their level losses from the associated Inner Plane.  Druids might collect power from the Outlands regardless of their alignment, or the neutral major plane of their alignment (possibly their choice), or, being connected to a more vital component of the cosmos, might draw power from the Prime Material.

One could also assign a philosopher-priest his own plane of birth as a base plane, or a plane that features his alignment.  However, I rather like the previous idea.

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So there are two different

So there are two different choices, both based on the hints described in "On hallowed Ground"

OR the spellcaster levels loss is a scheme cooked up by the powers themselves to keep their planar agents close to their realm (and discourage them from making mischief in the realms of other rival deities) 

Or because the planes are built on belief: thus a divine spellcaster so far from the centre of his fith should be less powerful. 

If the 1st one is true, a divine spellcaster with no deity should not be affected by the spellcaster levels loss, but should suffer dimensional pathway restrictions (like the impossibility to cast resurrection in a Inner Plane) and peraphs even the magic alteration of the planes (as Jem said "they don't have powers to bend the laws of reality for them"). That is a big restriction for them, like Jem said before.

If the 2nd one is true, a divine spellcaster with no deity  should count its spellcaster levels loss from a specific plane conected to its belief (Prime for druids, for istance, Astral for the Athar and Ethereal for the Godsmen)  but not suffer dimensional pathway restrictions, because the will of the plane itself allows him to do it.

The first ipothesis seems more logical to me, because the fact that the divine spellcasters on the Prime and in Sigil do not loose any spellcaster level seems to lend support to the idea of a divine compact. There is the fact of trying to avoid the magic alterations of the Planes. Maybe they can use the spell keys like the arcane spellcasters. 

 

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