I have converting some monsters and I need inputs from planewalker.com.
What power-level do you think the abyssal lords, the lords of the nine, slaad lords, etc. should have, relative to the power of gods? (Ignore those guys who have been listed as gods, like Demogorgon.)
Dice Freaks developed the virtual divine rank system to make these quasi-powers comparable to the deities. On the other hand, official D&D books show us that the archfiends are CR20-30+ monsters (weaker than some epic monsters in ELH), compared to the gods in Deities & Demigods (which irritatingly did not really integrate well with ELH.).
What position does planewalker take on the issue?
One inconsistency in planescape is that some creatures are said to be able to challenge demipowers, but yet the demigods are still beyond stats while the creatures themselves are relative defeatable.
I would rank demon lords such as Orcus and Demogorgon as divine powers, on the same playing field as gods like Tempus et al. but perhaps a little weaker. Otherwise I don't see how the Upper Planes wouldn't have conquered the Lower Planes by now (apart from the infinite abyss thing).
If the Great Wheel is intended to maintain a symmetry of power, then major demons and devils (and other alignment exemplars) have to be more powerful than just epic monsters.
They should be more powerful than the gods in the realms they control. Their ability to manipulate reality within their domains should mean a Lord of Baator should be able to drive even a greater god out of his layer, if not actually destroy him.
Spoken like a true Sandman connoisseur. 
Seriously, I prefer a hands-off approach to exemplar high-ups. Most of them don't need stats, and if mechanics are absolutely required, I vote for the virtual divine rank system from dicefreaks.
That being said, there's nothing wrong with making some lesser exemplar "powers" into statted monsters - minor Abyssal princes/lords, devils like Glassya or Martinet, Talissid's companions, etc. But people like Primus, Azmodeus, the three major Abyssals, the major slaadi lords, the Hebdomad... no stat blocks, please.
Deities, exemplar high-ups, even Her Serenity itself. They should remain plot elements. Their power and their abilities should be limited only by the requirements of the campaign and the imagination of the DM.
The thing is planescape did stat out some of those entities. We have Graz'zt and Pazuzu for example in Planes of Chaos. Primus was in PSCS I think. If Graz'zt is so much weaker than his contemporaries, then it seems strange that he is able to control some much of the abyss and actually challenge the other abyssal lords.
If the position is that these exemplar entities are comparable to the gods, then it make sense to either allow stats for both gods and these entities (as with Deities & Demigods) or abandon stats for both type of beings.
If gods are un"stat"able (as with planescape), then the only way for these entities to have stats is to place them below the gods in power.
See http://members.fortunecity.com/butterflysedge/ff8anigifs.html for FF animated GIFs.
Yeah, that always was jarring. Demogorgon and Orcus were lesser gods, but Graz'zt and Pazuzu weren't.
Primus was a greater god, and never statted in Planescape. The thing about Graz'zt is that his strength is more in the intelligent way he commands his troops than his physical strength; he never had to fight Demogorgon directly. And I still favor the idea that Graz'zt's power over Azzagrat made it impossible for any rival lords to attack him directly there.
Actually, I'm almost totally certain Primus was given stats (and not even that powerful too) in the original Planescape Boxed Set Monstrous Supplement along with the rest of the Modrons. He weighed in at XP 32,000 or something of that nature.
I personally don't think there's any problem with stating the various demon lords, noble baatezu, throne archons, etc. If they aren't true deties then they should have stats and be defeatable (whether or not this applies within the realms they control is debatable). InN fact because these entities are exemplars and can concievably be summoned (though one is certain they hide their names well) stats are probably a necessity. I think the problem comes that the stats given in BoVD and BoED are both far, far too weak. Not only Epic level monsters but simply certain Great Wyrm Dragons (to say nothing of dragons with a few class levels) are more powerful than many of the layer lords (I think demogorgon is the most powerful at a wimpy CR 31). I'd say increase all of them into at least the CR 35-40 range. They don't need to be massively powerful, since they almost never fight themselves and their constant, utterly loyal bodyguards run into the thousands of CR 15+ defenders, but they do need to be powerful enough so that no puny-faced prime wizard who happens to get his hands on Demogorgons true name can summon him and get a bunch of his friends together to beat him up.
I personally don't think there's any problem with stating the various demon lords, noble baatezu, throne archons, etc. If they aren't true deties then they should have stats and be defeatable (whether or not this applies within the realms they control is debatable). InN fact because these entities are exemplars and can concievably be summoned (though one is certain they hide their names well) stats are probably a necessity. I think the problem comes that the stats given in BoVD and BoED are both far, far too weak. Not only Epic level monsters but simply certain Great Wyrm Dragons (to say nothing of dragons with a few class levels) are more powerful than many of the layer lords (I think demogorgon is the most powerful at a wimpy CR 31). I'd say increase all of them into at least the CR 35-40 range. They don't need to be massively powerful, since they almost never fight themselves and their constant, utterly loyal bodyguards run into the thousands of CR 15+ defenders, but they do need to be powerful enough so that no puny-faced prime wizard who happens to get his hands on Demogorgons true name can summon him and get a bunch of his friends together to beat him up.
Just think of the jink you could make selling one's true name to the other.
Oops, you're right: he was.
That you're not quite right about. "Within Mechanus, Primus has the status of a greater power, except it is possible for Primus to die, albeit only under near-impossible conditions."
So while not actually statless, he does have all the potency of a greater god added on to his stats, which makes him quite powerful indeed. According to 2e Legends & Lore he has 100% resistance to all mortal magics, impossible to surprise, automatically makes all saves, is completely omniscient (though not where Tenebrous was concerned, apparently!), can kill any mortal anywhere in the multiverse with a thought, can perform an infinite number of tasks at once, and so on.
Of course, taken together that means that any greater god can conceivably kill all mortals everywhere with a single thought, which is a daunting prospect. It's a good thing that any other greater god can resurrect them all immediately afterwords.
Ugh. That's the problem with trying to define the abilities of nigh-omnipotent beings: logical headaches.
But anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that Primus had stats but they were effectively as irrelevant as any greater god's would be.
None of that follows, though.
- "Exemplar" is only a fan-made catagory. If you changed that to "they're all outsiders and can conceivably be summoned," the statement also applies to most gods.
- Even if they could be summoned, it would be reasonable to say that only those of equally god-like status could do so.
- Even if you allowed lesser beings to summon them, it doesn't necessarily follow that they could be controlled.
- Even if they can be controlled, their powers might be so potent that they can effectively do whatever the DM thinks is reasonable, far outstripping anything a stat block could anticipate.
Graz'zt was summoned and controlled for a time by Iggwilv, but Iggwilv was (in the 2e adventure Return of the Eight) said to be beyond stats.
Many of them are true deities, according to Planescape: Primus (while on Mechanus), Talisid and Morwel (both said to be on par with demigods), Orcus and all those Abyssal lords mentioned in Monster Mythology (Sess'inek, Yeenoghu, Baphomet, Demogorgon, Kostchchie, Juiblex, Lolth), and of course Apomps - divinities all. The status of the Lords of the Nine was vague, but they could all manifest avatars like gods, grant spells like gods, and fight the gods on equal terms (most famously the rivalry between Levistus and Set).
The lesser Abyssal lords, the slaad lords, and the yugoloth rulers (excepting, perhaps, the General of Gehenna) were all sub-divine. The archons had nothing equivalent; the Tome Archons were never intended to be anything like planar lords. Still: it could be argued that this was only an error, that if the design team had ever sat down and thought about making the rulers of all the planes equal in majesty, or if the same designer had designed them all instead of letting them accumulate from a variety of radically different viewpoints, they all surely would have been roughly equal: Graz'zt on par with Demogorgon on par with Talisid on par with Zaphkiel on par with Set on par with Thor.
All that arguing aside, I don't actually mind planar lords being statted, or gods either for that matter. I don't actually care if mortals can defeat them or not (within reason); I do want to see gods and planar rules at approximately the same level (with planar rulers getting a significant home-ground advantage).
Other than that, despite all I've said, I don't really have an opinion.
Sure, but the fact that Wizards gave gods the outsider type is not my fault. In 2e the various non-divine planar lords were still fiends, slaad, archons, or whatever, and since those creatures can be summoned, no matter how powerful they are, if they aren't gods, they can be summoned.
Except that primes of middling power can summon things they have no concievable way of controlling (Balors, Pit Fiends, Ultroloths, etc.). It's part of the literary and mythological tradition. After all, Dr. Faustus, a pretty wimpy mage, summons up Mephistofeles, to pull the example from Marlowe. A more D&D example, in the Fall of Myth Drannor Module some nameless flind shaman (at best a 5th or 6th level cleric) summons three Nycaloths who almost certainly had several class levels. Scale that up some and Epic-level characters can surely summon up demon lords. In fact, most D&D supplements/novels imply that fiends like being summoned to the prime, so they can mess with mortals who don't deserve it, I don't see why this urge goes away as they more powerful.
I didn't say you could concievably control them, but you could pull a page out of BGII Throne of Bhaal and beat the stuffing out of a demon lord (Demogorgon vs. 6 level 30 characters, and he loses, shame). Now I'd let a group of people powerful enough, like say all of the Chosen of Mystra together, or maybe a cabal of 20+ liches get away with it, but I think their power show be sufficent so that it's really hard.
Rip, for all that I truly agree with you on this one, it's not how 3e works (terribly unfortunate but true). I'm of the opinion that if you're going to stat something people aren't intended to fight and win, then it should be something they haven't got a prayer against, not something a great wyrm having a good day could beat up on.
Oh, they can certainly chant some words, enscribe a pattern, and have powerful extraplanar creatures arrive, but is it truly a summoning? It seems to me that a true summoning relies on the summoner's power to transport the summoned across planar boundaries, whereas in the scenario you mention the fiend is actually using its own power, and only using the foolish would-be summoner as an excuse.
Your definition of a summoning might be different in a mileu where fiends are banned from entering the Material Plane without a mortal's consent. This restriction was removed in Faces of Evil and hasn't been repeated in 3e, though.
By the rules, there are strict hit dice restrictions on spells like planar binding and summon monster, and gate spells explicitly can't draw unique fiends (though they can come through if they want to).
The Cosmic Descryer prestige class from the Epic Level Handbook allows characters to expand the limits of planar binding and similar conjurations - I think Iggwilv would have had to have been a 29th level character or thereabouts to bind Graz'zt against his will, assuming Graz'zt only has 36 hit dice as per the Book of Vile Darkness. If you make Graz'zt more powerful, you have to keep making Iggwilv more powerful until you get pretty far beyond what most characters are going to be able to do (which is fine, since Iggwilv is supposed to be ridiculously high level).
I don't see why it's necessary to take the time to make stats if the battle is going to be NPCs versus NPCs, though. Myself, I'd just make the judgement call that I think the lich cabal is tougher than the fiend lord (a reasonable assumption in many cases) and say they won rather than bother to actually play it out.
I agree that it's the policy of WotC to provide as much hard statistical information for those who buy their products as possible to eliminate the need to "fudge" things like this. I also agree that the current Dungeons & Dragons game doesn't "work" in the way I describe, but only in the sense that if you're fudging things and deciding to let really powerful NPCs do whatever you think they should you're not using the D&D rules - you're using DM's fiat, which isn't contained in any one system.
I don't agree that it's actually against the rules to make DM judgement calls like this; it's just not something you'll see in a rulebook, since by its nature DM's fiat involves throwing away the rulebook, or at least invoking Rule 0.
The original question was about how powerful we think (or how powerful Planewalker thinks, but we were answering anyway) the various fiendish rulers should be. My answer is that they might largely be considered to transcend the rules - or at least the most powerful of them might. That's a little bit like making up symbols for things that I don't think the Roman alphabet adequately covers - it's true that the alphabet doesn't work that way, but that's the whole point.
Or maybe it's more like making up symbols for things I'm too lazy to bother to find an existing letter for. Whatever. I mean, if you like statting things as an intellectual exercise, more power to you.
I agree with this.
I don't agree that it's actually against the rules to make DM judgement calls like this; it's just not something you'll see in a rulebook, since by its nature DM's fiat involves throwing away the rulebook, or at least invoking Rule 0.
Sorry, I was being cynical. I wasn't saying that it's against the rules to make DM judgement calls like this (heck, I create non-statted NPCs all the time) but just that it goes against not just the policy of WoTC, but against the general trend of 3e gaming (A trend I dispise, for the record). Its not all that prevalent in the Planescape community, for which I'm greatful, but something you see in the world of D&D overall.
Ok. I have a list of near-divine entities... Which of the following groups do you think should have stats?
Greater Abyssal Lords (Demogorgon, Orcus, Baphomet, etc.)
Lesser Abyssal Lords* (Eltab, Pazuzu, Graz'zt, etc.)
Lords of the Nine
Dukes of Hell (Glasya, Martinet, etc.)
Altroloths* (Anthraxus, Bubonis, etc.)
Slaad Lords* (Ygorl, Ssendam, etc.)
Elder Eternal Evils* (Kezef, Dendar, Ityak-Ortheel)
Archomentals* (Imix, Ogremoch, etc.)
Celestial Hebdomad (Barachiel, Zaphkiel, etc.)
Talisid & Friends
Court of Stars (Morwel, etc.)
Greater Proxies
Lesser Proxies
Entries with (*) are given stats in 2nd ed. planescape, Forgotten Realms or Dragon magazines.
I have the stats for some of the archfiends and demon princes I'll have to find some way to post them
No.
No. And the Dark Man is NOT a LESSER lord! 
How many layers do Fat-Bloated-Bastard and Monkey-Faces rule?! And how about Graz'zt? See? SEE!?
No, with the possible exception of Bel and Dispater. And Baalzebul in his present form, if necessary, but thats stretching it.
Yes, if necessary, and when appropriate. For example, I used to play Martinet as the Voice of Azmodeus, something between a proxy and an avatar, and of course I didn't stat him, but if you do relegate him to the default "butler" role, sure.
Get real. To stat them properly, we would need to do some research, and when that research turns up the fact that not one of the loths has more than 12 HD and Cha 19 or so, we would be in serious trouble. And turning to the media wouldn't help.
No. Too mutable.
Don't know any of these guys, but probably no.
Yes, but it may be difficult to compare their power level properly. The dicefreeaks template is beyond my sphere of interest, but I don't mind having stats for these guys.
Mmnnai'm not sure. Which means, probably not.
Yes friends, no Talisid.
No. Well, perhaps some lesser.
Yes, if we come up with a good definititon of proxy, which we won't because they were too varied in 2E, and the short 3E definition is too constraining.
The bolded part is, I'm fairly certain, false. There's a fairly extensive schtick in On Hallowed Ground, echoed elsewhere, that the LotN license their spell-granting powers from real deities. [Set, f'rex, is the one who actually grants Belial's spells IIRC.] I'm also not convinced that the LotN could manifest avatars in canon PS (assuming Guide to Hell isn't canon, which seems right); certainly, none of them do so in the references I've read, e.g. Fires of Dis, although that doesn't dispute the possibility. The one exception to this may be Asmodeus but that's he's vaguer than the rest of the crew.
You're quite correct, however, that the gods had rivalries with the Lords, which really irked me in canon PS. Either the LotN have enough power to fight the gods as equals, or the gods will crush them like bugs. [Or you hack it like I do, but that's Another Tale.] The design team's utter failure to reconcile the tension between these two poles was, IMO, canon PS' most grievous flaw.
Yes, that's true. But their clerics get spells nonetheless. So in a practical sense, they're able to grant spells.
But I should have clarified that. i was being lazy.
They could. Colin McComb provided stats for their avatars (and described the lords themselves) in Dragon #223. Only the Dark Lord of Nessus was left unavatared, since he, she, or it was left entirely mysterious. Because Colin McComb wrote the article as an accompaniment to the Baator book in Planes of Law (which he also wrote) and because it was even illustrated by Tony DiTerlizzi, I definitely consider the article to be PS canon.
The former is definitely the correct interpretation. Dragon #223 said:
"The Lords are some of the most powerful bashers in the cosmos. They control whole layers of a plane, which is far more than most powers can claim."
...
"In a sense, the Lords are their layers. They have the ability to shake the land around them, to make it erupt and heave up its contents. They can see all through their layer, piercing through nearly any veil thrown up for privacy - it's unclear as to whether they can see into a power's realm without the god's say-so."
I didn't see any tension at all, or any two poles. The conflict between Set and Levistus made their relative equality unambiguous, and nothing in PS ever even hinted that the Nine might have been weaker. That they couldn't grant spells without the gods' help only indicates that they're other than gods; they're not created or sustained by mortal worship, and they cannot easily interact with mortals in the way gods do; everything else indicated that they were in many respects stronger.
Greater Abyssal Lords (Demogorgon, Orcus, Baphomet, etc.)
Lesser Abyssal Lords* (Eltab, Pazuzu, Graz'zt, etc.)
Lords of the Nine
Dukes of Hell (Glasya, Martinet, etc.)
Altroloths* (Anthraxus, Bubonis, etc.)
Slaad Lords* (Ygorl, Ssendam, etc.)
Elder Eternal Evils* (Kezef, Dendar, Ityak-Ortheel)
Archomentals* (Imix, Ogremoch, etc.)
Celestial Hebdomad (Barachiel, Zaphkiel, etc.)
Talisid & Friends
Court of Stars (Morwel, etc.)
Greater Proxies
Lesser Proxies
Entries with (*) are given stats in 2nd ed. planescape, Forgotten Realms or Dragon magazines.
I would like to see stats for all of the above, but not in terms of HD and AC, but what powers would a divine or demon lord manifest in battle or negotiation? In others words, would Graz'zt ever cast a fireball at his opponents? How about a mass charm? Would Pazuzu prevent flight by all hostile creatures in his lands? Would Imix snuff out all ice & water spells in his domain?
That, to me, is more important to roleplaying an encounter with these incredibly powerful beings than any attack bonus number. The regular stats I can pretty much fake off the top of my head. What I need to know is the encounter preferences of the Lords of the Nine if it ever comes down to brass tacks. This is flavour expressed in stat form.
No. And the Dark Man is NOT a LESSER lord! How many layers do Fat-Bloated-Bastard and Monkey-Faces rule?! And how about Graz'zt? See? SEE!?
I agree that Graz'zt is generally presented as being a worthy rival to Orcus and Demogorgon. It wouldn't be unreasonable to say that Graz'zt has enough worshippers to make him a deity - it's hard to deny that mortal worship would at least add to his power.
I think the greatest of Abyssal lords should be on par with the Lords of the Nine (and there may be far more than nine of these most powerful lords of the Abyss, though traditionally the number of "Monarchs of Demonium" is estimated to be six). I think, however, your average Abyssal lord is only about equal to your average baatezu noble (Martinet, Bune, Malphas, Bael, Amon the Wolf, et al.), since ruling an Abyssal layer really isn't as big a deal as ruling a layer of Baator. A Lord of the Nine rules one ninth of an entire plane, while a typical Abyssal layer is only one thousanth or one billionth the total power the plane can muster. Some layers are more important than others, of course. An Abyssal ruler still gets other benefits, though - being able to command the landscape of the plane, being able, to some extent, to sense what's going on in it, being able to command (to some extent in truculent and contrary tanar'ri society) the armies and resources of the layer.
Anyway, I think it's more reasonable to stat an Abyssal lord like Eltab or Obox-Ob than it is Lolth or Juiblex.
But, as I said, I'm not so much against statting planar rulers as I am concerned that the greatest of them should have some way to avoid being crushed by deities desirous of their territory.
I think of Dispater as being more powerful than the Hag Countess, personally. He's one of the very oldest of the Nine, and dangerous despite the fact that his fief is one of the shallower layers.
I'm not really familiar with the Iuz storyline, but on the other hand didn't Graz'zt go for divinity in the FR module For Duty & Deity? And failed?
"Layer size matters not. Judge me by my layer size, do you?"
Sure, ruling a layer of Baator is be a bigger deal politically, but in terms of raw personal power, it compares to ruling a layer of the Abyss.
Sure, but I see Dispater as more of a down to earth kind of guy. Someone whose interests may cause him to cross paths with mortal PCs, unlike the deeper rulers. I forgot about the Hag Countess, though.
The truth is that I didn't want to bother dealing with the complexities of how they grant spells, but in retrospect it sounds like I was trying to hide that fact in order to bolster my argument. My apologies.
Make no mistake, the article assures us that the Nine are "probably" not omnipotent. They can be omniscient within their layer (but not within gods' realms that happen to be there) for a time but it requires intense concentration, distracting them from ot her things. They can't grant spells on their own (but they do gain additional power from mortal worship). They do have limitations. I do think, however, that the case for their being able to hold their own against deities is clear. I think their major advantage is being able to control the layer itself - possibly they can push unwanted deities out without a fight. Stats might not enter into such a match.
Abyssal lords can grant spells on their own, even explicitly non-divine lords, but only up to third level (fourth level if they grant them in person). Though I'd ignore that limitation in 3e, letting Abyssal cultists take the demonologist class from the Book of Vile Darkness and/or the thaumaturgist class from Green Ronin's the Book of Fiends, or just be clerics. Even 3e demigods can grant 9th level spells, where in 2e they were limited to 4th level.
He planned on giving Waukeen's divinity to his daughter, who would then become his agent on Toril. Iuz acheived divinity on his own, but Graz'zt still hopes to manipulate his son into serving his ends (turning the world of Oerth into his fourth layer of the Abyss; Toril would presumedly be his fifth).
It seems, from these examples, that Graz'zt doesn't care whether he's a god or not. He seems perfectly confident that he can acheive his goals with the power he has as an Abyssal lord; he seems actually contemptuous of deities, like they're nothing more than pawns to him.
I think it can. I think Graz'zt is very comparable to Mephistopheles, and Demogorgon is probably comparable to the Dark Lord of Nessus or Levistus. Probably Alzirius is comparable to Fierana. But a baatezu noble who rules a large dukedom in Malbolge is comparable to the ruler of a minor Abyssal layer; it's simply that the Abyss is more fragmentary than Baator.
I'm sure there aren't as nearly as many baatezu nobles as there are Abyssal lords, certainly.
Maybe so. He certainly likes toying with them, though he's unlikely to leave his tower.
The Slaad Lords... maybe. But then given they're highly chaotic natures, I think I would rather prefer them to remain stat-less. Too much work...
The Archomentals are another possibility, although the fact that they might perhaps represent the inner planar equivalent of the Lords of the Nine or the Demon Lords might also make me reconsider.
And the Proxies. I have no problems with these receiving stats. But I would really prefer to see a better interpretation and ruleset for them.
On second thought, the comparison is probably more complicated than that. Diabolic nobles, after all, are restricted by the desires of their masters, while Abyssal lords have absolute freedom on the layers they command. Controlling a piece of one layer of Baator doesn't offer the same symbiotic relationship with the plane that command of a layer of the Abyss does, either - or does it?
Depending on your interpretation of whether or not they are actually deties, yes or no. Demogorgon certaintly has had stats in both editions, and though not in PS, it was possible to fight, and defeat him in BGII Throne of Bhaal. As ridiculous as that incident may have been, he's suppossed to be beatable.
Definately, assuming they aren't gods, they need stats. Now, certain of them, like Graz'zt, should never, ever, be caught exposed in combat where he actually has to fight things himself, but somebody like Pazuzu, he has to fight all the time. Abyssal Lords should regularly face challenges from Balors and their armies hoping to take over the spot, and its certainly not inconcievable for a group of PCs to be involved in some kind of brawl like that.
It's not necessary to stat the lords of the nine, except Bael, because they don't fight people, and they don't face direct challenges from their subordinates (assassination yes, battle no). Bael's a general and he leads his armies, so its important to know just how many Balors or Maariliths it would take to lay him low (you know the Tanar'ri have tried it), but the others should never engage in combat, really ever, and so don't require stats.
Probably, if you intend to use these entities for something. Baatezu nobles are trumped up beings, but a Pit Fiend with some class levels could try to take them out in a very clandestine coup, and concievably PCs could be involved, so their capabilities should be known.
I'm not certain, I don't really believe any group of PCs should ever be in a position to actually attack one of these guys. Besides, 3e has muddled the Ultroloth situation so terribly I don't know what to do with it anymore.
I don't think its necessary. Within Limbo their powers are sufficent to do whatever they feel like at the moment, and outside of Limbo the White and Black Slaads from the ELH should be enough of an approximation of their abilities (throw on some levels if you want) when manifested on another plane.
I'm not familliar with these guys (are they mentioned in guide to Hell?) so I don't know.
Yes, they've been stated previously in both editions, and there are modules/games where they've been fought and beaten. More imporantly, the lesser Archomentals, even though supposedly deities, go around fighting people all the time, so stats are important.
No, like the Lords of the Nine its not that they don't have stats, but that they shouldn't be fought. In the case of the higher ones, the idea of something evil enough to actually attack them even getting that high on the mount is unbelievable enough. Since fighting one of them should require blasting through a veritable wall of Solars and other powerful celestials it just shouldn't happen, and they have their ways to avoid being called off the plane.
As the Guardinals really can't resist sticking their nose into trouble, and the companions reputably go around the multiverse vanquishing evil, the should have stats. Again, its sort of a measure of just how big of a fiend army could they take on by themselves if isolated from their associates (and this is fairly likely with the companions, who might not bring guardinal forces with them).
Anyone who never leaves the court, no, people who do, yes. For all the reasons mentioned previously.
Because Proxies are unique, one only needs stats if its going to be in a combative (or spell contest) situation in some way. For proxies that never leave their realms its not necassary to stat them.
This makes sense, but note that in Planescape (Dragon #223) Bel had an avatar that he used when he needed to manifest to underlings.
Also, I've always interpreted him as someone who (since he became Lord of Avernus) helped plan strategy but used his own generals (Malphas, Goap, Amduscias and so on) to actually lead the troops.
I'm not 100% certain that it's even possible for a Lord of the Nine to leave Baator, at least not completely. Part of their essence is one with the plane.
Gaaaaaaah! That's totally my fault there; completely miswrote. I meant that the 3rd edition's design team's greatest failings was to not reconcile the disparity. Planescape was, you're quite correct, admirably consistent about the two, although I always felt that some of the higher demon/devil lords didn't get enough respect 
Incidentally, was Talisid considered a demigod or somesuch in PS? I don't know enough about him to say, but I'm even less sure what was actually known about him...
Greater Abyssal Lords (Demogorgon, Orcus, Baphomet, etc.)
Lesser Abyssal Lords* (Eltab, Pazuzu, Graz'zt, etc.)
Lords of the Nine
Dukes of Hell (Glasya, Martinet, etc.)
Altroloths* (Anthraxus, Bubonis, etc.)
Slaad Lords* (Ygorl, Ssendam, etc.)
Elder Eternal Evils* (Kezef, Dendar, Ityak-Ortheel)
Archomentals* (Imix, Ogremoch, etc.)
Celestial Hebdomad (Barachiel, Zaphkiel, etc.)
Talisid & Friends
Court of Stars (Morwel, etc.)
Greater Proxies
Lesser Proxies
Entries with (*) are given stats in 2nd ed. planescape, Forgotten Realms or Dragon magazines.
Of all these Only the Lesser Proxies would I stat out compeltly. The others I'd give stats as I could see getting into combat with them but not full stats. Basically give them a stat block that gives Known powers and an "Idea" of what punishment they can take and what protections they might have.
My reasoning is that while all of these *should* be defeatable they shoudl not be defeatable without an actual plot and plan behind that defeat. Combating beings this powerful takes time, planning, cunning and effort or equally powerful beings on your side. And unless your PC's have gotten to the power of proxies and gods then they should be more thinking of how they will survive confrontations with these beings not how to defeat them.
He was 41 according to Planes of Chaos. Considering that he not only lost hit dice, but that HD mean less in 3e, they really powered Graz'zt down.
It's not necessary to stat the lords of the nine, except Bael, because they don't fight people, and they don't face direct challenges from their subordinates (assassination yes, battle no).
Well, they did once. The lesser eight challenged Asmodeus, Asmodeus won.
Where's that from, by the way? I do so hope it's not the horrendously non-canon Guide to Hell, because the Reckoning is my favourite piece of Baatorian lore.
It's from Monte Cook's A Paladin in Hell, originally, though Chris Pramas' Guide to Hell expanded it slightly (for example, it was Pramas who came up with a name for it).
In Colin McComb's Planescape-era interpretation of the Nine, it was implied that they were all the same beings as their 1e incarnations, taking on different names and shapes over the eons (and in some cases, the 1e information was simply so much screed). Monte Cook decided that instead the various rivalries and politics mentioned in 1e finally came to a head, and the current, Colin McComb-designed roster was the result of that cataclysmic event. Mostly because A Paladin in Hell was supposed to be a retro 1st edition nostalgia-fest.
They are fully detailed in the 3e Book of Exalted Deeds, and as I recall they are mentioned in the 2e Planes of Conflict boxed set although I am not as certain on that.
I placed Graz'zt among the "lesser" abyssal lords because he is firstly not a god in planescape (unlike Demogorgon, Orcus, etc.) and secondly he has 2E stats (while the other group don't).
Another issue is the gulf between stats and stat-lessness. Let's say we have 2 groups - stat'd abyssal lords and the stat-less ones. It would seem that one group is infinitely more powerful than the other. Is Graz'zt really that much weaker than Orcus or Juiblex?
The Elder Eternal Evils are the beings that challenged the FR gods. Kezef the Chaos Hound is like a FR version of the Fenris Wolf, who used to be imprisoned in Pandemonium. He bit off Tyr's hand and Mask's limb.
Unless, you want to make the abilities "No save. No SR. Do not pass GO. Do not collect $200."... This would make them all into Ladies of Pain - you worship her, you get flayed (die, no save) or mazed (no save, no SR, just don't ask). Is that how these creatures should be measured to?
Anyway 3E just seems to be more mechanics-driven. Hmm. Unless you want it like how Faiths & Avatars handled the deities, outline what the deities of different ranks can do and provide the stats for some avatars/aspects.
Do I be right to take it that people here generally don't give 2 *** about the deity rules in Deities & Demigods?
. Talisid was said to be on par with demigods in power, though, according to the second Planescape Monstrous Compendium.
That sounds like a much better compromise.
Lemme preface this with the fact that I don't give gods stats except for demigods.
I don't give full stats to Abyssal Lords, Lords of the 9, unique Yugoloths etc unless they're present outside their native plane. On their own plane I don't make much distinction between them are deities on overall level of power. They're both more and less powerful than true deities within the source of their power, but significantly affected by being present outside of that plane or planes. And even then I make them rather obscene.
For instance, I created a self aware fragment of a unique fiend who was encountered in the hinterlands of the Outlands, and he/it was a challange for a group of six 23rd level PCs.
Noble Baatezu, Abyssal Princes, and lesser deific proxies I would and do give stats to, but they're nothing to laugh about at all.
As far as I'm concerned, you do indeed.
The avatar option is much better, but I still wouldn't let the PCs fight them, except under the most extraordinary of circumstances... I've never DMed an epic campaign, so this is purely theoretical.
BTW, the internal power relation between the Powers, in or out of their realms, should be treated as a story element, and kepty out of game mechanics entirely. It's no excuse for statting the Powers.
No point on their home planes, avatar-like sendings of pieces of themselves elsewhere.
Yes.
Some of them, yes, but there are other yugoloth rulers than the altraloths. Bubonis, the General and the Oinoloth, probably not. Someone like Taba or Typhus, yes. Anthraxus, after his exile. Depends on whether or not they rule an actual piece of planar real estate, I guess is the difference.
Not sure. Flip a coin. Flip many coins. They're basically just big slaadi in 1st and 2nd edition - Ygorl is an advanced black slaad with the ability to manifest as a skeleton, and Ssendam's some kind of hyperadvanced chaos beast in ooze form. Chourst is an advanced white slaad, and Rennbuu's like the prismatic slaadi someone designed on Enworld.
But I like the idea of making them invincible in Limbo just as much, if not more.
Flip a coin every round. The PCs hope they can kill them during one of the non-invincible rounds. That might be cruel, but they really shouldn't try to kill off the personifications of chaos.
If the gods have stats, yes. If not, then no. I'd rather see the gods have stats than the Lords of the Nine, actually.
Yes.
If you see them as just powerful archons, then yes. If you see them as the equivalents of the Nine, then no.
Mm, sure.
Morwel, no. The others, I guess so.
I have no problem with those getting stats.
But I like the idea of making them invincible in Limbo just as much, if not more.
Flip a coin every round. The PCs hope they can kill them during one of the non-invincible rounds. That might be cruel, but they really shouldn't try to kill off the personifications of chaos.
Not that most PCs would encounter a Slaad Lord often, but when they do encounter one, the creature should be a reflection of the mutable nature of the plane itself. Randomly rolling for the creatures stats and ability checks during each encounter ensures that the slaad they are facing is not a *static* entity of chaos. Where on one occasion the slaad could have both high intelligence and charisma scorces, on the next occasion, it could perhaps only have a high strength score.
Then again, maybe not. Like Kaelyn said, flip a coin and let the random nature of chance decide what the slaad will be like.
IMC, the "exemplary" exemplars(like the virtues) are deities. I mean, a deity is basically a critter powered by "belief energy", right? What are exemplars made up of? Belief. And, considering that Powers have maybe a few hundred thousand followers per world(and only a few Powers expand beyond one or two), while the only thing required before Elysium gets boosted is someone who thinks killing people are bad, m'kay? Now, most of this belief goes into the plane itself, but its' extensions(read, LotN, Primus) get a rather nice piece of the cake, too.
*e*
Oh yeah, something abit off topic, but whatever: where do you get those FF avvies?