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Planescape Theme: Nothingness (Neil Degrasse Tyson)

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Tue, 2013-04-30 12:12
#1
darsius
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Planescape Theme: Nothingness (Neil Degrasse Tyson)

So, I came up with a theme for a Planescape game that I was hoping on running in the near future with a group of friends. The Theme is Nothingness. I was actually inspired by this discussion lead by Neil Degrasse Tyson (warning: it is rather long): http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1OLz6uUuMp8

I wanted to discuss ideas that could be used in the campaign setting with this theme in mind. A few ideas that I came up initially should help jump start this discussion I hope.

Zero, the Divine Number: Much like the Divine Alphabet, I would imagine that there should be Divine Numbers who assisted in the create of the physics of the universe. Zero would make sense as the number that would want to return the universe to zero sum, or rather nothing.

The Last Word: I know that Tenebrous had The Last Word but I'm not sure what happened to it after the events of Dead Gods (which I have yet to read) perhaps Zero would wish to find the Word?

The Auditors of Reality: Conceptual entities From Discworld. Inspired the concept of Zero. Auditors basically file all of the paperwork to keep reality running. They hate mortals because they make the universe messy and therefore have plotted to wipe them from existence on occasion.

Infinity: I would argue the conceptual opposite to Zero. While Zero is nothing, Infinity is Everything. Infinity could be a Divine Number as well. Where you can have nothing of something you could also potentially have an infinite amount of it as well.

If you have time (and interest) I would recommend checking out the video. It's very interesting and discusses different types of nothingness and the metaphysics of it as well. Anyway I hope to hear some interesting thoughts on this from you guys. Thank you.

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Tue, 2013-04-30 14:47
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Palomides
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Re: Planescape Theme: Nothingness

I saw a little of the video but my lunch break is only so long (BTW, next time lead with the fact that the discussion is led by Neil deGrasse Tyson)

I guess my first question is are you picturing the force(s) of Nothingness as a principal foe in your campaign or just a force needed for the regulation of existance?
Is Nothingness (and/or its Auditors) launching major plans (ala Orcus or Vecna) to destroy all of existance? Or is it a more passive (in terms of the PCs' lives) like Primus?

Tue, 2013-04-30 15:24
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darsius
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Re: Planescape Theme: Nothingness

Good Idea with the Neil deGrasse Tyson thing, I'll edit that. But I want to clarify that although I may plan on having Zero as the primary antagonist, mostly because its very nature is Nothing, Nothingness itself may not be an antagonist at all. So I guess I believe it is important for the existence of reality (although it could be argued that nothingness is simply a manifestation of human though). With that in mind I would wish to explore the ways in which nothingness can manifest in Planescape. This is a pretty complex concept and being able to properly represent this concept in a concrete manner is what is going require a great deal of thought.

In regards to the actual storyline, it is in is infancy. I am not sure if I want Zero to be the primary antagonist or the invisible hand. I imagine I will have it manifest in physical form as "O, The Divine Letter" from Torment.

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Is Nothingness (and/or its Auditors) launching major plans (ala Orcus or Vecna) to destroy all of existance? Or is it a more passive (in terms of the PCs' lives) like Primus?

That's a good question I would imagine by it's nature Zero would be more passive but I actually don't know how I would play that out in game.

Tue, 2013-04-30 15:51
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Palomides
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Re: Planescape Theme: Nothingness (Neil Degrasse Tyson)

OK, second question: is your (initial) interpretation of Nothingness more in line with the Bleak Cabal or the Doomguard?

Are you viewing Nothingness as the end point of Entropy? Or the state of things after all projections of personal bias are removed? Or both?

If you take the Bleaker approach, on the planes where thought = reality; would the removal of all projections of what is "real" or what "should be" result in Nothingness?
While thought (or lack of it) shapes (or unmakes) the Outer Planes, would this continue to the more physical realms of the Prime and the Inner Planes?

Tue, 2013-04-30 16:24
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darsius
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Re: Planescape Theme: Nothingness (Neil Degrasse Tyson)

That's a bit harder of an answer to pin down. In a sense I don't think it would be either.

It is a necessity for the universe to exist. Just as infinity must exist so to must nothing. It is not a concept that has been forged by thought (perhaps) but has existed since before the beginning of time and space-if you think that non-existence exists as a thing.

Also, nothingness is not a process, it simply is there (or rather not there). This where it starts getting complex because nothingness may or may not exist in empirical reality. I would say that the concept of zero must exist as certain functions of the universe require it.

I suppose it could be closer to the concept of the Bleakers, but question whether nothingness exists separate from consciousness. That is a question I can not answer at the time and I think would require some more exploration.

Tue, 2013-04-30 16:35
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Wicke
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Re: Planescape Theme: Nothingness (Neil Degrasse Tyson)

Infinity and Zero should be twins. The two concepts almost go hand in hand. And I would pitch them against the Auditors.

I would go with a campaign centered around the Law/Chaos axis, rather than the Good/Evil. The Acheron/Arcadia split would allow you to explore the concept of subsuming oneself into the concept of a (societal) whole. Ysgard/Pandemonium would allow you to explore the notion of losing oneself to the moment and/or to madness.

Tue, 2013-04-30 16:49
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Palomides
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Re: Planescape Theme: Nothingness (Neil Degrasse Tyson)

Just throwing out random thoughts now:

-Is black truly a color or is it merely the absence of color? In the same way, is the concept of Nothingness a concept or merely the absence of one?

-Similarly, does a shadow truly exist? Isn't it actually "defined" by the absence of light?

-Can Nothingness "be" if the multiverse truly exists? Even if reality is merely the false image of the shadows in Plato's cave; doesn't the existance of the shadows (or at least the existance of the light and forms that create the "border" of the shadow) mean that something exists?
Even if all existance is a fevered dream, doesn't it follow (via Descarte's "Cognito egro sum") that at least the mind that is dreaming exists?

-Or do these Platonic dreams/ideal concepts exist on their own and create reality from their interactions? (Maybe this is a twist on the Signers philosophy)

Wed, 2013-05-01 06:08
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cromlich
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Re: Planescape Theme: Nothingness (Neil Degrasse Tyson)

You could involve the nothingness that is over the edge of Sigil. Or the Astral is near nothingness, until it was invaded by thoughts and magic.

Thu, 2013-05-02 13:44
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darsius
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Re: Planescape Theme: Nothingness (Neil Degrasse Tyson)

Now that I have time to spare, I can actually respond. I was considering using the quasi elemental plane of vacuum as nothing is there but time and space; which could be considered one type of nothingness. However, the other type-nothingness without time and space-would be a very difficult one to describe; especially if the players were a part of that nothingness.

this is one of the major problems here, Palomides. Can nothing truly exist if it's not really there. but that is why there is something rather than nothing, because nothing can't be experienced, because it's not there. I think that consciousness is a problem here to because of it's subjectivity but in Planescape subjectivity is king. But solopsism is not so much. your believe are not the only ones that exist in the world-as evidence of the other planes, powers, etc. But that is an interesting idea. I wonder how much power a solipsist would wield if he/she truly believed they were the only one in existence.

Quote:
I would go with a campaign centered around the Law/Chaos axis, rather than the Good/Evil. The Acheron/Arcadia split would allow you to explore the concept of subsuming oneself into the concept of a (societal) whole. Ysgard/Pandemonium would allow you to explore the notion of losing oneself to the moment and/or to madness.

I like the idea of making Zero and Infinity a paired unity, but I don't think that alignment should exist for them. Could you explain how the concept of individuality vs society would related to nothingness though? That sounds like it may have potential.

Thu, 2013-05-02 18:29
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Wicke
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Re: Planescape Theme: Nothingness (Neil Degrasse Tyson)

Oh, I was suggesting the Law/Chaos thing as a backdrop for any Outer Planar shenanigans, rather than saying that Zero/Infinity should be Lawful or Chaotic. As you seem to be conceiving them, they are concepts that exist outside of the alignment spectrum, akin to something from the Far Realms. On the other hand, the Divine Numbers strike me as being something embedded in the concept of Law. It might be interesting to see Zero as something Other that aligned itself with the Divine Numbers but is not a part of them.

As for the other bit: In either case, for Law or for Chaos, taken to the extreme, it speaks to a loss of self to the moment (in the case of Chaos) or loss of self into the whole (in the case of Law). They're not necessarily Nothing concepts, but it strikes me that if one were to walk a spiritual path towards Nothingness, being able to lose your concept of self would be a good first step.

In a similar vein, the Ciphers have mastered another sort of loss: the loss of distinction between thought and action. They could make for an interesting faction to incorporate into the campaign.

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