the way I think of planescape is that it encompases all tech levels. In sigil you can pick up anything from a stone axe to a laser gun, all of these techs are availible somewhere ont he prime, and probily the infinate planes, I like the idea of a world where magic and tech have equal footing. well thats my thoughts, does anyone agree?
planescape tech
Fri, 2005-02-25 04:08
#1
planescape tech
Fri, 2005-02-25 08:24
#3
planescape tech
I tend to think of PS as at a pseudo-renaissance era of play, complete with smokepowder weapons available, but not common. (Giff merchants from SJ and all that.) Some interpretations of renaissance evolution have developped, but not a terrible lot. There are some advances in medicine and such, but you have to think, the Planes are infinate.
Sure, something may be out there. That doesn't mean it's been discovered and used by the populace at large, however. (Think about the crusades, a lot of things were adopted by the marauding happy christians, but they didn't get it all.)
As a whole, I also like to think that at a certain technological level, magic filters and eventually dies. The Belief that science is real and magic is pure fantasy is adopted by society at large (particularly in today's modern world, and I would imagine, definetly in a sci-fi era). This would KILL any portals to a place so ensorceled on Belief. If you don't know it's there, or can't imagine it, I would imagine that Sigil would close its doors to these stupid clueless who can't even Believe right.
But that's just me. You want to modern PS up a bit, check out "Urban PS". Hell, I'm sure someone would hit a Star Wars conversion as well, if they cared enough. For right now, however, Medieval/Renaissance era is my choice for this campaign setting.
Fri, 2005-02-25 20:11
#4
fairwell ye ladies of summerisle
I think the "proper" range of D&D (as opposed to d20 modern or d20 whatever) is a Paleolithic to Renaissance level of technology. That means that higher technology is something that might be developed in the future, or it's something that was developed in some area that's not readily accessible, or it's something that was developed in the mostly-forgotten past.
I certainly agree that you should be able to buy a plasma rifle, a Heisenberg Compensator, or an expired credit card made into jewelry somewhere in Sigil's backstreets. I don't think it should be obvious where they came from - if they weren't dug up from the Mines of Marsellis in Acheron, probably the merchant has no idea where they came from. Someone showed up at a pawn shop with mysterious goods and disappeared in the night, or a band of khaasta massecred a caravan the likes of which they had never seen, or they fell through a portal that hasn't opened before or since, or they were recovered from an abandoned cache in the Ethereal or the Plane of Ooze, or they simply appeared in the shop one day with no explanation.
That's not to say that an occasional side trip to a high-tech world is a bad idea. I just think that if a higher-tech setting becomes the focus of the campaign, it's not really D&D, or Planescape. You can still call it either of those if you want.
Fri, 2005-02-25 21:20
#5
planescape tech
The idea of belief is very important to planescape.
In my opinion I think that the reason you see Rennasance tech in PS and not much more is that most prime worlds are below Renn tech with some there and a very few higher.
First of all, because of the mass belief of the Primes the technologies that work best are those that work in their belief systems. Most prime worlds believe in magic therefore magic is strong in the outer planes. Alternatly some technology is hindered by the belief of the planes.
However, this can be overcome if an individual has a strong enough belief in their tech. Thus a clueless from a high-tech world can fall into Sigil and still have their tech work for them, but most tech requires a certain amount of infrastructure to use (Powerlines and generators to plug equipment into, batteries, chemicals, ammo, ect.) and it is this part that is hard to replicate on the planes.
Otherwise the reaction of technology on the planes is unpredictable. If a berk doesn't know how something should work then it might not work how it should.
Finaly the reason there isn't much tech in Sigil is it could just be that rare on the primes. As prime world inhabitents learn of technology they might begin to rule out ideas such as portals to other planes and other fanciful things. Thus those few that develop even fewer have access to the planes, and of those how many spread how to make their technologies rather than just selling guns and equipment without telling how it works.
Fri, 2005-02-25 23:38
#6
planescape tech
Ravenloft is pretty much the most modern of the "normal" campaign settings. It approaches the Steam age and late rennaisance in some realms (where magic is becomming less popular as technology advances and pistols are quite popular). I'd place that as pretty much the upper limit for Planescape.
If you want to bring ray-guns in and crazy stuff like that, you can. I'm just not a fan of going beyond having more refined pistols and the beginnings of trains.
Sat, 2005-02-26 01:05
#7
planescape tech
I would really believe technology should be highly limited in planescape to beings outside of the norm and with unusual abilities. Technology is, as has been said, more than just magic, its based on science, and requires consistent universal laws that govern all of reality to function effectively. Since Planescape (and D&D as a whole) don't have this, technology should be limited.
Certain races do have specialized technological devices, such as the Fraal and the Ethergaunts (Etherblades have great similarity to some kind of plasma rifle), but this is marginalized and such races are beyond of the ken of normal planars.
Bringing technology into a highly magical setting should inherent focus the conflict on the magic vs. technology problem. If you want that game you should be playing Mage, not planescape.
Sat, 2005-02-26 04:08
#8
planescape tech
Wouldn't the existence of magic cancel out the need for technology, or slow its advancement to a trickle? I mean; who needs to develop a laser gun fo hundreds of millions of golds, when you can get a wizard as your permanent fireball tosser for a couple of thousands?
I think many non-magic races probably would go for higher tech-levels, and even manage mass-productions to a certain extent. Its just that they'd have no chance to support a market saturated by magic as a cheaper more streamlined solution.
Magic is sorta the modern tech of fantasy. Its what makes it so familiar in such an eerie way.
Tue, 2005-03-01 05:15
#9
planescape tech
I wouldn't be opposed to technology based on the principles of Arcane magic or Psionics, or even other sorts of fantasy tech, like steam-tech.
Tue, 2005-03-01 13:00
#10
planescape tech
I suppose I should clarify my anti-tech stance here. It's less anti-tech so much as anti-science.
Science is death on a fantasy game. Get the scientific method going - anywhere - and you roll onwards from there to an Enlightenment, an Industrial Revolution, and an Age of Imperialism that sweeps unstoppably outwards from the pinnacle of scientific achievement. You get a completely new power base, one that upsets the usual balance and dominates everything else in the campaign setting, just because a technological society is more organized and focused and able to adapt to an ever-increasing rate of change. Throw a high-tech prime into Planescape, and that prime *should* dominate absolutely everything else within a few centuries or so. (Or else be utterly crushed by an alliance of fiends, celestials and archmages - but how likely is that?)
And the flipside of tech is the support need. Assume that a standard laser rifle has the same support and maintanence needs as, oh, say, your average computer. Think about what goes into keeping your computer running - kilowatts of electricity daily, spare parts and technician support on a yearly basis, a fair amount of user savvy all the time to keep the disk space open and the mouse and keyboard clean. A working laser weapon on the planes requires either absolute idiot-proof engineering (ha!) or else a society that can provide at least as much energy and expertise to keep it working as a modern computer does. The latter will crash any fantasy game into the ground, taken to its logical conclusions.
Tech-as-rare-and-funny-looking-magic is okay. Tech as an integral part of a fantasy game is not.
Tue, 2005-03-01 14:28
#11
planescape tech
Science is death on a fantasy game. Get the scientific method going - anywhere - and you roll onwards from there to an Enlightenment, an Industrial Revolution, and an Age of Imperialism that sweeps unstoppably outwards from the pinnacle of scientific achievement. You get a completely new power base, one that upsets the usual balance and dominates everything else in the campaign setting, just because a technological society is more organized and focused and able to adapt to an ever-increasing rate of change. Throw a high-tech prime into Planescape, and that prime *should* dominate absolutely everything else within a few centuries or so. (Or else be utterly crushed by an alliance of fiends, celestials and archmages - but how likely is that?)
While I tend to agree with the anti-tech crowd here, with regards to the Planescape setting at least - and as far as magic retarding the advance of science - I don't necessarily agree with the idea that a technological prime would be unstoppable on the Planes.
I mean, imagine if the Native Americans had access to druid style magic in RL - causing earthquakes, creating whirlwinds that emerge in the battle lines of colonial forces... with that kind of power, they could have driven the settlers out, or at the very least put up a very significant fight. Same applies to Zulus or Aborigines or Incas or whoever. Or someone like the Chinese equipping their forces with mass produced staffs of magic missile...
Tue, 2005-03-01 15:05
#12
planescape tech
Science is death on a fantasy game. Get the scientific method going - anywhere - and you roll onwards from there to an Enlightenment, an Industrial Revolution, and an Age of Imperialism that sweeps unstoppably outwards from the pinnacle of scientific achievement. You get a completely new power base, one that upsets the usual balance and dominates everything else in the campaign setting, just because a technological society is more organized and focused and able to adapt to an ever-increasing rate of change. Throw a high-tech prime into Planescape, and that prime *should* dominate absolutely everything else within a few centuries or so. (Or else be utterly crushed by an alliance of fiends, celestials and archmages - but how likely is that?)
While I tend to agree with the anti-tech crowd here, with regards to the Planescape setting at least - and as far as magic retarding the advance of science - I don't necessarily agree with the idea that a technological prime would be unstoppable on the Planes.
I mean, imagine if the Native Americans had access to druid style magic in RL - causing earthquakes, creating whirlwinds that emerge in the battle lines of colonial forces... with that kind of power, they could have driven the settlers out, or at the very least put up a very significant fight. Same applies to Zulus or Aborigines or Incas or whoever. Or someone like the Chinese equipping their forces with mass produced staffs of magic missile...
Except that, by my definition at least, a Native American culture that's able to organize enough 15th-level druids to cause the White Man serious problems isn't a non-scientific civilization anymore. The effort involved in getting those "walking natural disasters" in position to each crush an infantry division is non-trivial; so's keeping the 'big guns' safe from sniper/assassination attempts, coordinating things on a strategic scale (dropping an earthquake on Third Division isn't that helpful if Fifth Division slips behind the front and destroys your home village), arranging for supplies... magic may be an alternative to technology, but using any weapon effectively and efficiently requires a 'modern' mindset that steamrollers any non-modern one.
Ditto the Chinese and their magical item assembly lines. If you can mass-produce wands of magic missile, there's no reason at all you can't do the same with the magical equivalent of lightbulbs, automobiles, televisions, et cetera... and then you don't have a fantasy world anymore, you have a 20th-century civilization powered by magic.
That's the problem I forsee.
Tue, 2005-03-01 15:41
#13
planescape tech
Ditto the Chinese and their magical item assembly lines. If you can mass-produce wands of magic missile, there's no reason at all you can't do the same with the magical equivalent of lightbulbs, automobiles, televisions, et cetera... and then you don't have a fantasy world anymore, you have a 20th-century civilization powered by magic.
That's the problem I forsee.
I think that's the exact appeal of the fantasy setting. Magic brings the fantasy so close to our own societies capabilites and possibilities, but its still magic, but it still seems as a simpler and more comprehensible time.
Science Fiction and fantasy are very close in this I think. In SF, technology has come to such a point whereas its similar to magic in complexity and the WOW factor, and in fantasy its more mystical from a primal basis. Its just another way of mimicking our present societies, as all litterature is.
Wed, 2005-03-02 10:17
#14
planescape tech
Except that, by my definition at least, a Native American culture that's able to organize enough 15th-level druids to cause the White Man serious problems isn't a non-scientific civilization anymore.
How is that different from nations on Faerun and Eberron martialling battle wizards as part of their army? Both of those worlds are considered 'fantasy', and both have nations capable of putting alot of magic into the field. As for mass producing magic weapons, I can think of a few fantasy settings which have vast dwarven forges throwing out runic weapons by the hundred, and no-one seems to complain...
More to the point, how do you define a non-scientific civilisation? The Medieval Europeans certainly knew how to create things like Gothic Cathedrals and Trebuchets which need some pretty heavy mathematics and scientific knowledge of material stresses to make work. Even though the priesthood tried to repress the advance of science under that name, you can't call them a non scientific civilisation. During the same period both the Ottoman Turks and Chinese were capable of massing million man armies and supporting them in the field over limited periods.
I admit the Native Americans were probably a bad example, but virtually any other earth society of the tech level shown in most fantasy worlds (or more usually straight-out mimicked by the setting...) have had a basis of scientific knowledge.
(BTW, as part of the native american thing I was thinking of the enemies they actually fought as opposed to full scale infantry divisions, such as the US cavalry forces... - besides, it would be very difficult for an infantry division to close to a position of full effectiveness, or outflank a force as incredibly mobile as the Plains Indians were, at least before the advent of tanks and aircraft - altough it has been repeatedly proved that in heavy terrain both of those units can be defeated.)
Ick. Lasers and antimatter conversion in Sigil, just because "it's out there somewhere". No.
The problem with high tech in any fantasy game setting is that it's not simply 'magic by another name'. Not done properly. It's effects as (or more) powerful than magic that anybody can use, even a 1st-level commoner, with proper instruction. And weapons are just the leading edge - you also get industry, scientific advancement, social reorganization, philosophy... add high tech to a fantasy game setting, stir well, and within about a century or so you don't have 'fantasy' anymore. You have modern Earth or more advanced, with magic as a side bonus.
(Note that this isn't a rant against "high tech as a funny form of magic". A laser rifle as a one-off, funny-looking bulky hollow staff, with an odd grip at one end and activated by pulling back on this weird lever, is not high tech. It's a funny form of magic. High tech is putting a whole plane's worth of laser rifles out there, along with all the other insights needed to achieve that level of tech, and extrapolating to a logical conclusion.)