Actually, I did a model for CODI when it was still alive. If we're talking about the original Unreal Tournament rather than the newer, more polygon heavy iterations, then the modeling won't take long at all. I'm pretty sure that it'll be roughly the same amount of polys as a NWN1 model. 3D would also be better in that you can rig up a model and use the same skeleton to animate any other model of the same basic shape. The problem is, as weishan mentioned, skinning the bugger. You have to take all those polygons, spread them out in a semilogical fashion, and then paint it to make up for the details. One thought, though, is struggling through the skinning process once and then simply modifying the colors of certain photoshop layers to get a "different" skin. This works particularly well at lower poly models, since you don't get the sort of distortion you would if a high resolution model was receiving a texture not designed for it.
Planescape online
That's why I linked xtremeworlds. An engine like that would make the start faster and easier, as you can start easy by creating a map, using default grafics and items and replacing it while already able to show results.
Because XW is designed to be an editor, so it seems a lot of stuff (guilds, weather, items) has just to be set up, not programmed. Even some GM-Effects you'd need - like summoning a player to your current position (which might be his new maze - 
) are already included.
Hmm. The graphics of Xtremeworlds certainly bring back a lot of memories.
Mostly good ones.
Sorry if this question has already been asked ( I don't have the time right now to go back and read through every post):
but is all this an informal effort, or is this something akin to Rogue Dao's Purgatorio? (which, actually is also quite informal)
To be more clear - have we decided if there will be an organized development team, wil there be a separate website with its own forums focused on development..etc.. or will this be a disconnected effort by the members of this forum to put together planescape online?
Annother technical problem with 3d is file types and converting 3d models into objects usable by whichever engine we choose. This is further complicated by the fact that we have to share these reasonably large files and animations with everyone who needs them. Everyone can view images. It also allows people who don't have 3d software and don't have the time to learn it the oportunity to help with graphics, meaning that it's more than just a few of us working.
I'd love the oportunity to get more practice with 3d, but the fact is that it's not something that a few people can do on thier own, and good looking sprites are indistinguishable from 3d in a game that does not require close-ups and has only one POV. Ultimately, it doesn't matter how we get or animate the sprites--3d or 2d work equally as well, but it will be far more practical to aim for a 2d game that looks 3d as opposed to a truly 3d game, which will take a very long time, and will be slower to expand.
edit. 5 minute sprite. this is for 64x64. This is fairly simple, and it's not a big problem to work larger and in more detail, but in an MMO screen space is important.
Ahhhh I had to look up what you meant by isometric and now all of it makes much more sense. We're looking at truly old fashioned a'la Torment style. I can totally get behind that at least for playing.
re: Suport and organization. I can say right now that Planewalker's hosting won't be up to the job for the game itself. But - I'll gladly open up a forum here for folks who want in on the project - and open up a gmail group for files as well for project planning and file exchange.
re: Management - I think it's really really really really obvious I try to do too much already and this will need a full time managerial sort, not a project juggler like myself. You'll want to find your leader/manager yourself, so I'm not going to put names in the hat arbitrarily - not my place. But from experience I wouldn't discredit someone who has no artistic or coding skillz so long as they can build pep-talks, momentum, manage you guys to get stuff (*gasp* I'll even use that hated word: "deliverables") in on time and probably handle the inevitable internet game drama. In fact, on some levels someone who doesn't have any job other than leading and organizing might even be the best option to consider. Your mileage may vary on this - every project group is unique.
Arianne seems reasonable to me. (And I don’t like the looks of xtreme worlds. Sorry.)
It is a Java application. This means that the development will be smooth and the program portable. Users would have to install Sun’s JRE (unless we can compile it to machine code executables using gcj or to .NET with ikvm, that is). Popular applications like Azureus and Eclipse show that this doesn’t have to be a drama.
There are several open Java libraries (including 2D physics emulation and AI that I would like to take a closer look at ) .
In a Java game the scripting language of choice would be Jython (Python on Java) instead of Lua.
We might start the project in 2D and then skip over to 3D someday. If we choose jME as an engine we might be able to recycle directly most of the stuff we made.
If there will be an agreement on favouring 2D over 3D there are 3 D&D games that we might want to emulate:
1) DarkSun: Shattered Lands (here and [url=http://www.the-underdogs.info/game.php?id=1513)]here[/url]) – round based combat; this is closest to what weishan thinks of, I daresay
2) AlQadim: Genie’s Curse (here and here) – arcade style combat (every click a thrust)
3) PS:T (Baldur’s Gate) – real time combat
The general roadmap for programming will be
a) characters who walk and talk
b) interaction with items, inventory, triggering events
c) combat
d) skill system and special abilities (spells will be special cases of skills)
Oh, ehm, when I said Arianne is Java then what I really mean was Stendhal (a RPG implementation of Arianne). Arianne itself just a small client library to the Marauroa MMO server (implemented in C++ and Python for instance) as far as I see.
Therefore we would customize (or completely twist) Stendhal.
I got confused because Standhal is a game as well as a framework. Sorry :oops:
I'd like to vouch for job as manager and designer person thingy. As I have to confess, my I chose a diffent path in life and my computer programming and graphics design skills can only go so far. However I do have a lot of time on my hands all the time, and I try to encourage people to stay true with the project and planescape in general, so I can constantly manage the site and keep the project running smoothly as I would want it to be running in the first place. So If you would have I 'll gladly take on the mantle of designer/manager thingy. And I'll keep all o' you addle coved berks in line!
Yes no maybe? 
I was hoping for real time combat, since it's an MMO. Maybe we could use an action que as well like in the Knights of the Old Rebublic games. Baisically, you could declare your actions in advance to allow you to act immediately, but you could also react immediately with a diferent action.
How did Diablo 2 go about it?
I'm pretty sure it was realtime, but I don't know.
Never played Diablo, but my neighbour/friend played it a lot and I'm pretty sure it was "click to hack".
Hmm. The only thing I could actually do would be to write quests/dialogues (with some help on the finer details of the english language) and maybe help a little on general design stuff that doesn't need any computer knowledge. Of any kind. At all.
I could also be a test player, if you need one. Or a Game master at those times when no united statesian is usually online. I found that out while playing Neverwinter Nights online... the only times I ever saw other people online was after 3am.
Diablo two was click to hack, repeat until dead. Bioware's games are click to attack, wait until dead.
Right we’d better get ourselves organized. Zeniel, what are your references?
We will also will need somebody to record creature stats, for example. (I shall create a xml-schema for that.)
I would like being mazed by Clueless into a project related forum.
As to graphics: We could rig a rather featureless (out-of-the-box) model, render it to 2D (cell shaded, if possible) in the right angles (8+ for everything; how angles does PS.T have, btw?) and then post process this foreshortened pattern by hand. This would grant us high quality graphics without too much trouble.
Maybe players could personalize their characters by altering colours, choosing between different heads and so on.
Walls and such would be made the other way round, by drawing wallpapers and using them as textures for 3D rendering walls.
I personally would like the whole thing to have a dreamlike, DiTerlizzi’ish look.
Also, hey, don't make characters become left handed whenever they face left.
@ Rabenaas
Well I worked in a plant nursery once.
But as I mentioned I'm dedicated and ready to work with plenty of time on my hands to manage people problems and I work great with people! So lets get this projects movin!
Zeniel may be overqualified to take the job, but if nobody else wants to do it, he gets the job. If you're at all intrested, speak now or forever hold your peace.
If I were to do 3d models, how detailed or un-detailed can they be. I can work with a polycount, but only if I know what it is.
Well, then, just tell me when you need writers/testers.
Let me know once everything is sorted out and forum head picked. I'll need a little bit of introductory text to put in the description of your new forum.
I can help out occasionally with 3d models, writing, or whatever, but I'm not signing up officially because I know for a fact that I won't have enough free time to pursue this constantly.
Oh, and I'm casting my vote for as DiTerlizzi-like graphics as possible. While the PS:T graphics were interesting and fittingly dark, nothing says Planescape like the scribly ink outlines and pastelish watercolors so definitive of DT's work.
Stop. Nobody move. There seems to be a bit of misunderstanding here:
The number of polygons is of no importance, because there is no modelling or texturing involved from our side. Only rigging and positioning of the camera.
Weishan, you said yourself that correctly foreshortened sprites would be difficult to draw.
I had the idea of using a ready made model like those from MakeHuman and Poser, render foreshortened patterns and fill in those by hand using Photoshop, Gimp or what you like best.
Btw, maybe you could comment on the graphics (with special attention to the camera angles) of the games that I included links to in one of my recent postings. PS:T differs from Baldur’s Gate in that the PS:T sprites bigger and thus “nearer” to the viewer, for example. A lot of psychology is conveyed by such details. Should we use “scalp view” (like weishan proposed; see DS:Shattered Lands) or something more sideways like PS:T?
@ Rabenaas.
We should aim for something more like PS:T rather than the full top down. As it will add more depth into the characters. It would allow players to actually view a character that they personnally customised for themselves.
Also I like isometric as a personal preference.
*kicks the forums over*
It's a bug that happens at times and we've had trouble replicating. Try logging out and back in to restart?
re: Sprites - I'd prefer something more like PS:T myself, the straight on top view really is disorienting to me, and very disconnecting from the character. Given that it's an MMO in 2d, I would want to keep as many barriers as possible down between player and character.
I think one of the most addicting and attractive factors of an MMO is the customizable paper doll. As long as you have that nifty silly hat to grind for, grind you will. It's just some scary part of the human psyche that wants their online persona to look different from everybody else's. That being said, I also vote for the PS:T style isometric view because it allows for greater customization of the characters.
Okay, then a few 3d models modified as needed are probably the best choice. It insures that the perspective, lighting, and such are all correct, and it increases the ability to customize. There is some question about style, though. I highly doubt I that can mimic the watercolor feel of the original Planescape art, especially on a 3d model. We probably want to make a decesion about that too.
it would take major cell shading on the 3d model to do it - and some careful picking of colors involved. If these are going to be reduced down to 2d to act as base-works for other artists coming in and adding things like outfits and equipment - does the 3d model have to worry about it or can the 2d workers be the ones to handle it?
It can be done in 2d, but it's not easy to paint a texture accurately on a 3/4 model like that for every single frame of an animation. I know for sure that it's a major stretch for me. Too major time-wise when I have to do school work, and all that fun stuff in the real world too. Looking at the way things are going, 3d may actually be easier and faster if we want a 3/4 perspective--if we can find a few more people, that is. Models and textures are my thing. I cannot rig and animate, which presents a problem. I don't really know about the other limitations of 3d server and code-wise, I'll leave that to the people who do.
We don't need a 3d server, do we? We just render an animation of the 3d model from a set perspective and use that 2d sprite as we would any other. Also, I have some (that is to say, limited) experience with rigging and animating. What version of Max are you using?
Thats as far as I understood it yes - the 3d was there just as a translator.
8. If I'm only exporting the mesh and UVW coordinates, there shouldn't be any problems.
Ok gang I've started taking down notes on the ground rules for the designing of Sigil. What we need first off is what part of Sigil, will we work on first. To save time, whoever says first gets first pick. Once we've got the site set up the design process can begin!
That Inn with all the portals which I'm too stupid to remember the name of. I mean, it's practically perfect.
Wayfarer's Inn -> Portal Schmortal
I want to say it's in the Lady's or Clerks Ward - but a quick gander at Chpater 7 should answer. It is not (in canon) in the same ward as the Portal Jammer though in Shemmy's Storyhour it was the same inn under yet again new ownership.
Could someone write a forum heading, please? Something like (but better than):
PS:Online
This forum is dedicated to the development of a plane spanning MOG. Help wanted.
Right now I'm still working on that character rigging thing. I want to generate some puppets with MakeHuman (wow, you can even model the earlobes by one or two clicks; that’s fun!), rig some general patterns for gestures and then automatically combine these and render the animation from different angles. Options like different haircuts should be parameters of that process.
How about,
Planescape: Online
Here is where the action starts! Help out our brave crew in creating an massive multiplayer online role playing game. You too can help build the Planescape multiverse!
Or something like that.
Ok Wayfairers Inn it is. Although I was looking for a ward or region of a ward to start with. Which ward is the wayfairer in? So I can adjust my notes accordingly?
I'd have to look it up in Chapter 7 but it should say there.
I checked, as far as I can tell, it doesn't say.
Hi, just stopped by to say that I’m going to have a seminar over the weekend. Next week I can continue working on our project.
Have a look at this picture by Robert J. Tiess (http://www.artofinterpretation.com). Maybe we can get a DiTerlizzi look by a similar technique.
Back in black 
Browsing the internet for handy components brought up:
Project Darkstar is a brand new, free and professional MOG server by Sun. There are already projects working on MUDs using Darkstar: DarkMUD and SGSMUD (based on Storybridge).
lwjgl is the Lightweight Java Game Library. I think it’s ideal for 2D Java based games (although the Darkstar community seems to prefer 3D and jME).
These are now my weapons of choice and I’m actually going to do something.
Well done rabenaas! Congratulations are in order. Let rabenaas's determination be an example to you all!
Perhaps a better starting project location is in order seeing the Wayfairers inn seems a little hard to locate. Plus I think it would be best if we start with a ward or a location in a ward and we can work on building interiors later. But for now someone willing, give me a location so notes can be distributed.
Could we also get the project forum opened so its a little more professional than what we've got now?
Thanks.
Will do Expect to be moved over shortly.
edit: Moved.
WOTC gave the rights for PS to the community, I hear. (And all the other discontinued settings as well.) But what does that mean exactly?
WOTC gave the rights for PS to the community, I hear. (And all the other discontinued settings as well.) But what does that mean exactly?
That's actually something that I`ve been meaning to ask about. While WotC has given the rights for us to continue Planescape, I can see them having issues with an MMO, even a free one, so we should try and get the legal side of this cleared soon. I can just as easily see them granting us the rights, since its the same community and the setting appears to be dead otherwise for now, but that is all guess work on my behalf.
Drake
Well you know, WotC can't have people doing something popular that's related to a property they own without making money off of it. That just wouldn't be professional.
Plus WOTC have to answer to the Arch Devils and we all know how they can be...
Can I assume from an artistic point of view that something like Unreal Tournament as a base is right out because of the modeling time involved?