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Planescape with Alternate Cosmologies

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Fri, 2011-10-07 10:09
#1
sciborg2
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Planescape with Alternate Cosmologies

This is something we've been exploring in the Parallel Wheel thread, but it's come up in various places.

Just as you can have the Wheel without Planescape, do people think you can have Planescape without the Wheel? Without alignment? With different ideas about Good/Evil and Law/Chaos?

Beyond Countless Doorways offered some possibilities, but I'm curious about what people feel defines Planescape, if they've played what they felt were PS games in different cosmologies.

Personally, I feel like playing a Mage: Ascension game can have a lot of PS flavor, even if you work on Earth. Funny thing is I don't know how to define PS exactly.

I also think you could have alignments but with more planes you have more options. So planes of Law are "closer" or even coterminous with each other (if not the same place from different viewpoints), and this would get around the challenge of making a place like Acheron or Beastlands the sole incarnation of their particular alignments.

I think a plane like Mechanus would benefit a great deal from this, as would Limbo. Other planes like the Abyss are incredible inclusive, with layers representing all kinds of possibilities for CE. I feel like you could have every plane like that, blurring the distinction between layers and planes.

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Fri, 2011-10-07 14:36
#2
atomicb
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Re: Planescape with Alternate Cosmologies

sciborg2 wrote:
Beyond Countless Doorways offered some possibilities, but I'm curious about what people feel defines Planescape, if they've played what they felt were PS games in different cosmologies.

Two things:

1) There's a systemic organization to the cosmology. Obviously alignments are the big ones, but I don't think that it has to be that for me. Elementals and genies certainly understand good and evil and law and chaos, but those are not the organizing principles of their world (and I suspect that to an elemental creature, the tension between fire and water is about far more than the obvious physics of it all).
2) Building from there, what might be the most special to me about PS is that it takes the coexistence of all these different planes and beings and whatnot very seriously. Which is to say that while the intersections and points of contact can be fascinating, there's something mundane about them as well. Planars are just trying to get through the day, you know? Rip's writeups of Abattoir and Void's Edge totally nail this for me - they're exotic and scary and full of imagination, and this isn't in spite of them being relatively straightforward reportage of the day-to-day in these two cities, but precisely because of it.

Maybe I've wandered off track here a bit. PS is great. That is all.

Fri, 2011-10-07 15:16
#3
sciborg2
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Re: Planescape with Alternate Cosmologies

no, actually, mentioning Abbatoir and Void's Edge makes a lot of sense actually!

there is definitely a New Weird vibe, and I do wonder if China Mieville played Planescape - he said he was influenced by D&D but PS especially feels like a vanguard part of the New Weird in that the fantastic is interwoven with the mundane.

what you said really gets to the heart of PS I think, as it has societies whose day to day existence involves cosmic concepts along with urban life, politics, and even just plain survival.

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Sat, 2011-10-08 21:50
#4
sciborg2
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Re: Planescape with Alternate Cosmologies

Thinking more about this, here are aspects of PS that I see:

Factions - Easily played out in a free range cosmology, perhaps even as cultists in a city ala Mieville's Kraken. Might require a Sigil type city (or cities) to really get in the politics and competing philosophies. If there is more than enough Multiverse to go around, it lessens the conflicts these groups have. The Wheel, with infinities that can be enumerated and also shift completely depending on belief you get endless vistas that can still bring a sense of claustrophobia or at least scarcity.

Belief is Power - Again, the nature of the countable infinities of the Wheel does give you the sense that this battle is important. But in a cosmology with countless planes, having the planes interrelated can get around this. Changing a single Hell can start to influence the others, redefining Good in one plane begins to redefine it elsewhere. Belief is Power makes mortals or really all non-deities important in a way they might otherwise not be. I don't think infinity needs to be a limited resource, but I think this does add to the intensity of the conflicting beliefs in Planescape.

Personalized Archetypes/Domains - One thing I think PS did well, and was emphasized by great fiction across the boards and the Torment CRPG, was the idea that the war of alignment was a very personal one. Maybe it is just me, but I really felt like PS offered character driven, non-combat options that were at the least muted in prior D&D settings. This could, and has been done, in cosmologies like Nobilis, Mage, and Kult. Kult's infinities are similar to the Wheel in that they are enumerated - and the cosmology is much more Earth-centric. Mage and Nobilis also emphasize the Earth as foundation, though Nobilis especially notes that presence of other worlds on Yggdrasil. I think Mage offers different worlds and the ability to game on them, but I never got the feeling you were supposed to be a planeswalker in that RPG.

The Freedom of Sigil: Sigil gives you the hypothetical chance to go anywhere, or at least any plane, at any level. It is the lynchpin of the setting in that it is what makes PS a setting as opposed to a place for high level heroes to come after saving FR or DL for the hundredth time. Having multiple such cities reduces the Lady of Pain vs. gods aspect, but I don't know if Planescape needs the Lady.

=-=-=

One thing we can ask is if Planescape is viable in the 4e setting. I think so, though the players of the alignment war definitely shift around. There is also no definitive battle ground for factions, as the Titanomachy and its aftermath seem to take center stage. One would have to introduce Belief is Power and find ways to make it stick. Factions would gravitate toward the Planes Above and Below respectively, with perhaps Bleakers and Dusties going to the Shadowfell.

Could say more about this but feel like there is a thread for this.

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Fri, 2011-10-14 15:27
#5
Hyena of Ice
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Re: Planescape with Alternate Cosmologies

(and I suspect that to an elemental creature, the tension between fire and water is about far more than the obvious physics of it all).

It prettymuch is just the physics of it all, but the behaviors often associated with the element play a role as well. For instance, air elementals view earth elementals as slow and stupid brutes (and disgusting creatures of solid, non-mallaeable matter) while earth elementals view air elementals as scheming, attention-deficit, hyperactive, impulsive cowards that take a century to think (stereotypes play a major role as well. Another good example is the disgust between beings of Fire and Ice-- fire beings tend to be hyperemotional and passionate, while ice beings.. tend to be the polar opposite. Magma and Radiance or Magma and Lightning are also good examples of polar opposites in behavior.). Every last thing about the opposing element and its natives disgust the natives of the other in the exact same sense that angels and loths, or modrons and slaad find one another absolutely revolting. Then to a much lesser degree you get into other feuds such as elementals vs. beings of flesh. For the most part however, fire elementals view the very EXISTENCE of water elementals and the existence of water itself to be an abomination, and that element's very existence blasphemes the very Multiverse itself-- a perversion of creation which must be blotted out.

Sun, 2011-10-09 08:31
#6
atomicb
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Re: Planescape with Alternate Cosmologies

Exactly! That doesn't sound like physics to me - it's stereotypes, fear, disgust, psychology, racism...which is frankly endlessly more interesting than "Water bad! Water stop fire!"

Tue, 2011-10-11 11:40
#7
sciborg2
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Re: Planescape with Alternate Cosmologies

I like this idea of elementals stereotyping each other, though I also would like to see a cosmology where elementals are cooperative to an extent. I can see all the elements working together at times and being rivals at times.

Continuing with thoughts on PS, another thing I think grabbed me was the willingness to go outside mechanics. I realize this might have frustrated others, but I think having unique locations that emphasized narrative via the reality altering powers of a god or planar lord made things more interesting.

In the same vein as Gaiman, PS also considered the idea that all the gods of mythology were hanging out on the planes - this had come up before in prior supplements but PS seemed to really bring it to the fore.

That it takes on aspects of a steam punk dystopia also appealed to me - I didn't always think to use the Cant, especially outside of Sigil, but I think the important thing to note is PS stood by a strong style rather than being an apologetic, grab bag setting.

As atomicb and Hyena state and demonstrate above, PS began to look at the societies of beings that had previously been summoned strangers with no depth to their own characters. For me at least it was the first time I'd really considered the sociology of planar beings.

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Wed, 2011-10-12 07:26
#8
atomicb
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Re: Planescape with Alternate Cosmologies

sciborg2 wrote:
I like this idea of elementals stereotyping each other, though I also would like to see a cosmology where elementals are cooperative to an extent. I can see all the elements working together at times and being rivals at times.

The merits of studying history came up in the PS Inspiration thread and the above makes me think about the history of religion(s) in particular. Name any two faiths that have ever been apocalyptically opposed to one another and there's probably been a period where got along quite nicely (even fiddling with or emphasizing various points of their theologies to explain or justify the state of things on the ground). And in many of those cases it's little more than cooperation pragmatically trumping conflict.

Last night I was thinking about a parallel beset by some planescaped version of anti-matter, where earth decides that air aren't such bad blokes at all compared to the elementals of anti-earth (or anti-elementals of earth, I'm not sure). I suppose that's just replacing one enemy with another, but it's a start.

sciborg2 wrote:
In the same vein as Gaiman, PS also considered the idea that all the gods of mythology were hanging out on the planes - this had come up before in prior supplements but PS seemed to really bring it to the fore.

It's funny, at some point in the last several months I was enthusing about PS to someone and happened to mention exactly this. And hearing myself explain it, it did all of a sudden seem a little crazy. It does potentially sound like this mad hodge-podge of folklore and mythology ("Wait, so Thor and Shiva just ... hang out? And fight Dracula or something?"), especially if you've already explained that our Earth doesn't even exist in the game (my take, at any rate). And yet it works, which is pretty awesome.

sciborg2 wrote:
As atomicb and Hyena state and demonstrate above, PS began to look at the societies of beings that had previously been summoned strangers with no depth to their own characters. For me at least it was the first time I'd really considered the sociology of planar beings.

Right. I mean, think of the stereotypical beginning D&D adventure that the name might imply - adventurers find a passage in the side of a mountain, discover a winding dungeon filled with monsters and traps, and eventually a dragon sitting on a pile of treasure. Obviously I'm not the first person to raise an eyebrow at this: who would build such a thing? what do the monsters do all day? how did the dragon get in there? Taking those questions seriously is what makes things good, and PS did it x1000.

Thu, 2011-10-13 11:56
#9
sciborg2
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Re: Planescape with Alternate Cosmologies

Another thing that I think fans of PS took and ran with was a mature handling of sex and sexuality. The sex I've read in PS stories is usually tasteful and inclusive.

Even within the setting's print pages you had to confront questions about tiefling origins, interspecies relationships, Greek Gods stealing lovers, and of course you had succubi and enriynes.

The other thing that PS seemed to promote was diversity. There was little reason a fantasy setting stretching across billions of worlds couldn't have characters of different races/ethnicities (both real world and imagined) acting together.

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Fri, 2011-10-14 15:36
#10
Hyena of Ice
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Re: Planescape with Alternate Cosmologies

I like this idea of elementals stereotyping each other, though I also would like to see a cosmology where elementals are cooperative to an extent. I can see all the elements working together at times and being rivals at times.
There are elementals, mephits, etc. who hold a view of cosmic balance-- e.g. that the opposing element is also needed in equal amounts to maintain harmonic balance, but this is held by a tiny minority. The ecological role of inner planar beings is to purify their home plane and expand its power, just like a Tanar'ri's ecological role is to purify the abyss of law and good and expand the Abyss's influence and power.
While Sunnis and Chan do work together, they still instinctually hold condescending views of the opposing element, and despite working together, they, like all other archomentals, do intend for their element to overpower the opposing one. However, their intended methods to reach these goals are more benevolent than those of their evil and even neutral cousins, as they are convinced that they can eventually persuade every last air/earth elemental to "adapt" or "evolve" over to their element. Whereas with the princes of elemental evil, it's convert or die (though most plan to give the other elements time to adapt, not wishing to repeat the mistake Imix made long ago when his rampage nearly destroyed Elemental Air and Elemental Water)
However, the inner planar creature's opposition to the opposing element is quite visceral and instinctual, more akin to our disdain of fecal matter *esp. when it's not ours*. Yeah, there are humans out there with a SCAT fetish and the like, but they're an aberration.

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