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Planar Touchstones: Good or Bad?

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Submitted by Krypter on Fri, 2005-01-21 16:24
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I figure it's time for another poll. What is it about planar touchstones from the new Planar Handbook that so infuriates old-school Planescape fans? Is it because they seem so munchkiny? Are they overpowered? Is the emphasis on combat the antithesis of what Planescape Is All About (tm)? Eye-wink

I'd say that the locations are rather interesting, but the idea that it's a powerup acquired through combat seems rather ridiculous. I'll use them in my game, but with some heavy modifications.

Sat, 2010-11-13 14:17
#2
Bob the Efreet
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Re: Planar Touchstones: Good or Bad?

Glancing over this thread makes me reminiscent of all the cool people that don't post here anymore.

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Thu, 2010-11-11 09:51
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ginagamer
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Re: Planar Touchstones: Good or Bad?

"Sure. Planar touchstones are places of power where magic is concentrated. Players who pick the planar touchstone feat can journey to these places, defeat some monsters, perform some arduous task, and gain access to new powers. These powers are usually of short duration or have "charges", so that you have to return to the touchstone to recharge the power.

There is a web enhancement for the Planar Handbook that should give you an idea of what they are, here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040730a/scentsy"

Thanks for the link! I appreciate it!

Fri, 2005-01-21 17:01
#4
Fidrikon
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Planar Touchstones: Good or Bad?

Um, for those of use who dont have the planar handbook, could you give a breif overview of planar touchstones?

Fri, 2005-01-21 17:10
(Reply to #2) #5
Krypter
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Planar Touchstones: Good or Bad?

Sure. Planar touchstones are places of power where magic is concentrated. Players who pick the planar touchstone feat can journey to these places, defeat some monsters, perform some arduous task, and gain access to new powers. These powers are usually of short duration or have "charges", so that you have to return to the touchstone to recharge the power.

There is a web enhancement for the Planar Handbook that should give you an idea of what they are, here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040730a

Fri, 2005-01-21 18:05
(Reply to #3) #6
Bob the Efreet
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Planar Touchstones: Good or Bad?

It's mainly the 'find exotic planar locales, conquer them, power up' mentality of the touchstones that bothers me. It was one of the Planescape materials (the DM guide to the planes in the main boxed set, maybe?) that said to use treasure or powers to lure players to the planes was to cheapen the whole experience. And it is exactly that cheapening that has happened.

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Fri, 2005-01-21 19:40
(Reply to #4) #7
Nemui
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Planar Touchstones: Good or Bad?

What the efreeti said. I vote for something between option 1 and option 2, becasue I like some of the locations as locations. I'd drop all the "touchstone benefits" text, however.

Fri, 2005-01-21 20:28
(Reply to #5) #8
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Planar Touchstones: Good or Bad?

"Nemui" wrote:
What the efreeti said. I vote for something between option 1 and option 2, becasue I like some of the locations as locations. I'd drop all the "touchstone benefits" text, however.

Agreed.

I mean, for Chrissake, there's a touchstone in Sigil, and then a random monster table for an encounter. You defeat the random monsters and thereby 'establish yourself in the area' and gain the touchstone's powers. No, killing the squatters at the place, or whoever owns the land the thing is on is just going to get you scragged by their friends/race/faction/sect/guild.

Some of the sites are interesting, but the mechanic behind it assumes that players are dicechucking morons who would look at you wierd if you suggested that a game needn't have combat necessarily as the outcome for every encounter as such. The planar handbook just had a seriously warped take on the planes in some cases, mixed in with some halfhearted pastiche of Planescape material. The Sigil stuff was ok, not great, but good, as well as the city of brass and Tunarath. The rest of the book was about a 4/10.

Fri, 2005-01-21 21:43
(Reply to #6) #9
Krypter
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Planar Touchstones: Good or Bad?

I agree with all you folks, but just to play the Devil's Advocate, I would argue that the touchstones idea connects better with today's D&D players. It's more of a videogame setup, and creates very strong lures for exploring the planes. To someone who has never played PS but loves the tactical miniatures combat of D&D, PS probably looks like a bunch of elitist artsy-fartsies prancing about quoting poetry. Not ideal for attracting new blood or growing the hobby. Wizards is probably focusing on a half-way strategy of dipping a toe into the planar travel waters, seeing if it sells, and then perhaps later adding in more PS-like elements.

Does it follow the pure philosophy of Planescape? No, but it might just pique the interest of people who wouldn't touch a regular planescape product, and then lead them down the path of enlightenment. Eye-wink The locations are interesting, and with a little bit of work they can fit the metaphysical dimensions of the PS we love. The old 2E Manual of the Planes didn't have any factions or neat philosophy, but it too set minds on fire and lead them to explore the planes.

Fri, 2005-01-21 21:57
(Reply to #7) #10
Knightfall1972
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Planar Touchstones: Good or Bad?

I voted for option 3, as I am not a Planescape purist, although I consider myself a die hard PS fan.

The one thing that I would have preferred is for the Planar Handbook to have had less planar touchstones with more detail and how to use the sites as more than just 'touchstone' sites.

There are just WAY TOO MANY of them in the book. One per encounter level up to tenth level would have been more than enough with higher level ones being saved for a web enhancement.

Cheers!

KF72

Fri, 2005-01-21 22:25
(Reply to #8) #11
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Planar Touchstones: Good or Bad?

"Krypter" wrote:
PS probably looks like a bunch of elitist artsy-fartsies prancing about quoting poetry.

That's why I like it!

Fri, 2005-01-21 22:39
(Reply to #9) #12
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*prances* Eye-wink

Fri, 2005-01-21 22:49
(Reply to #10) #13
Krypter
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Planar Touchstones: Good or Bad?

OK, the first person to quote poetry gets an ooze mephit sent directly to their nether regions, and I don't mean Nessus.

*gets ready to summon something nasty*

Sat, 2005-01-22 03:47
(Reply to #11) #14
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Planar Touchstones: Good or Bad?

So, you visit the place, kill some monsters, do some good deeds and get powers? I don't need any touchstones for that Sticking out tongue

Sat, 2005-01-22 06:29
(Reply to #12) #15
ceratus
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Planar Touchstones: Good or Bad?

Ugh...I failed to notice this particular part of the book when I was "reading" it...
Kill monsters to get powers? Sure...as long as it's some baatezu/'loth scheme that gives the fiends the power to control the minds of those who are dumb enough to go do something like that, and to have those same sods be enlisted in the Blood War not long after that...But without the downside that massively outweighs the good part? I don't think so...

Sat, 2005-01-22 11:40
(Reply to #13) #16
Clueless
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Planar Touchstones: Good or Bad?

I think the bit that annoys me the most about how the touchstones are set up is that it presumes everything exists in a vaccum. I'm sorry - if there was a place on the planes where one could fight random guardian monsters or otherwise bond with the location to gain powers? There'd be entire *armies* camped on it charging up before a fight!! It's just not *logical*. The planes aren't these barren empty places where prime adventurers can show up and kick butt and not get noticed, we're not talking about sealed demiplanes here.

The concept has potential, but it's not particularly 'new' for a concept. How many DM's out there have had some neat place, with cool story to it that gave the PCs in the end some good reward if they played it right? Touchstones - are just like those well used DM sites, with a cute name attached and quite a bit of the contextual logic of such a scenario removed. Nothing spectacular in my book.

Sat, 2005-01-22 12:30
(Reply to #14) #17
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Planar Touchstones: Good or Bad?

I think that they are some cool locations to use in the planes, and it's fine for DMs to give out unusual abilities that defy definition in the game rules, but to have mechanics built into the system encouraging players to fight monsters for powerups is annoying. It's like those secret bonus levels in Mario Bros. where you jump around on a bunch of stuff and get lots of +1UPs.

Sat, 2005-01-22 12:48
(Reply to #15) #18
Fidrikon
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Planar Touchstones: Good or Bad?

Im with clueless on that one. If they can give you such powers, dont you think the Bataazu and Tan'ari would turn each and every touchstone they heard of into a new battleground? I mean, if your armies had access to the power of most of the touchstones, I think that might just give you enough of an edge to seriously whup your enemy.
And any touchstone on Acheron... :shock:

wow, that would be a lot of blood.

But then again, theres one thing we have to remember: when we talk about how its not the type of thing planescape is for, touchstones weren't made for planescape. They were made for the NEW planes, which in greyhawk is little more then a place for primes to go out and fight creatures with names they can't pronounce, just for kicks.

Sat, 2005-01-22 13:48
(Reply to #16) #19
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Planar Touchstones: Good or Bad?

"Fidrikon" wrote:
Im with clueless on that one. If they can give you such powers, dont you think the Bataazu and Tan'ari would turn each and every touchstone they heard of into a new battleground?

I don't think it works that way. I think of the touchstones as sentient, choosing to gift those they see as worthy. They're not going to gift an entire army, and probably couldn't if they wanted.

But the notion of a lone, minor fiend going on a spiritual quest to an exotic plane in order to become more than it was - that has possibilities. The planes should change you sometimes. At least, so the Seekers believe.

Sat, 2005-01-22 14:05
(Reply to #17) #20
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"Kaelyn" wrote:
"Fidrikon" wrote:
Im with clueless on that one. If they can give you such powers, dont you think the Bataazu and Tan'ari would turn each and every touchstone they heard of into a new battleground?

I don't think it works that way. I think of the touchstones as sentient, choosing to gift those they see as worthy. They're not going to gift an entire army, and probably couldn't if they wanted.

But the notion of a lone, minor fiend going on a spiritual quest to an exotic plane in order to become more than it was - that has possibilities. The planes should change you sometimes. At least, so the Seekers believe.

I agree if the touchstones are places of revelation where people can come and find a quest to be changed then it works. The killing "random monsters" part is well clueless primes being clueless primes and killing innocent bystanders.

Sat, 2005-01-22 14:23
(Reply to #18) #21
Clueless
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Planar Touchstones: Good or Bad?

Unfortunately that sort of context isn't included in the touchstones writeup as they're written. It's an idea that can be retrieved from the rubish bin... but it's still in the rubish bin.

Sat, 2005-01-22 23:12
(Reply to #19) #22
Bob the Efreet
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"Fidrikon" wrote:
But then again, there's one thing we have to remember: when we talk about how it's not the type of thing Planescape is for, touchstones weren't made for Planescape. They were made for the NEW planes, which in Greyhawk is little more then a place for primes to go out and fight creatures with names they can't pronounce, just for kicks.

Yes, that's true. However, that being the new paradigm doesn't mean we have to like or use it, ergo new material that betrays the setting we all play is effectively, for people still using Planescape, bad material.

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Sun, 2005-01-23 00:13
(Reply to #20) #23
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"Clueless" wrote:
There'd be entire *armies* camped on it charging up before a fight!! It's just not *logical*.

Excellent point! Think of all of the efforts to control Sigil (Shemeshka and other merchants, Blood War plots, faction kriegstanz) and it's just a handy location not even a "power up" site.

The thing that made my bile start to rise was the packaged approach to the touchstone sites. For people who haven't looked through the Planar Handbook, there's an opening paragraph, a random monster encounter table, and then mechanics for what powers you get by "charging" at the site (that's their term, by the way). Personally, I don't see anything wrong with characters gaining abilities by traveling to exotic locales. It drives home the morphic nature of the planes by showing the powers of the multiverse, the long-lasting effects of belief incarnate and the power gained by experiencing the planes. But the way the touchstones are presented, they treat the planes too flippantly. You should excel at the planes by living them not by defeating, for instance, three elves on eagles and then making a Balance check DC 25.

In my campaign I would use the touchstone sites (a lot of them are interesting by themselves) and leave out the touchstone side of things. What I would have preferred for "touchstone abilities" is something more akin to Spelltouched feats from Unearthed Arcana (the alternate rules book, not Monte Cook) where you are eligible to take a feat by having something happen to you (for Spelltouched it's things like bit killed by a neromancy spell). This way it encourages characters to go out and adventure, without the physical, simplistic goal of a mystical site.

Sun, 2005-01-23 08:10
(Reply to #21) #24
Fidrikon
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Planar Touchstones: Good or Bad?

thats a much better idea, James. I dont have a problem with having your characters being slightly altered by the planes. thats part of the fun of PS. But gaining those changes by beating the level boss is just stupid.

However, doing a quest at a certain location might be kept around, such as if you do an act that is in tune with the plane that your on. You know, do something chaotic in limbo, but dont do it just for the sake of being chaotic.

hmmmm, maybe they even have to do the act with no prior knowledge of the sites significance. that way the residents of the plane would be less likly to be getting random bonuses. Because they know its there. Because, lets face it people, the Tan'ari are the perfect people to activate a chaotic evil touchstone in the abyss. But if they know its there, they can't use it.
Oh, the irony!

but thats just an idea.

Sun, 2005-01-23 09:33
(Reply to #22) #25
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Planar Touchstones: Good or Bad?

I voted for the third option.

"Clueless" wrote:
The concept has potential, but it's not particularly 'new' for a concept. How many DM's out there have had some neat place, with cool story to it that gave the PCs in the end some good reward if they played it right? Touchstones - are just like those well used DM sites, with a cute name attached and quite a bit of the contextual logic of such a scenario removed. Nothing spectacular in my book.
I agree to the point.

I was rather agashed at first with touchstones. They seemed too trivial for something as majestic as the planes. Like cheapening the concepts of power and so forth.

But I guess the idea of touchstones is very much rooted in the human conscience. We've always liked having belief and ideas connected to actual places. Like Mecca (not sure of the english interpretation), Jerusalem, the four pilgrimmage-locations of Europe etc.
Giving mechanical awards like this is something I don't do personally, but I can certainly see myself using touchstones in-game. In fact I think I always did that to a certain degree. Mechanics to reflect this is perhaps a bit of an overkill, but I don't really care... Smiling

Sun, 2005-01-23 13:44
(Reply to #23) #26
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"Krypter" wrote:
I agree with all you folks, but just to play the Devil's Advocate, I would argue that the touchstones idea connects better with today's D&D players. It's more of a videogame setup, and creates very strong lures for exploring the planes.

I have gamed with a few people in my day *hack, wheeze, reaches for his oxygen tank*... Where was I? Oh, yeah.

I think the stormtroopers of the Diablows style of tabletop ROLLplaying *twitch* is just about the antithesis of the Planescape genre of play. I've walked out of sessions with these goobers.

I have never met a person who was into the concept of Planescape and also powergamed the hell out of their characters, who just rolled through areas to beat and break stuff.

If today's gamers are there to roll dice and kill things with challenge ratings, they do not understand the ROLEplaying game as it stands. They can get online and get LEET crap and say WOOT as much as they want. Give me flavor text and roleplaying opportunities over Purple Ellipsoid Ioun Stones any day of the week. *twitch-twitch*

*sigh*

This is one of the main reasons I haven't bought the Planar Handbook. It seems to me like a stat-junkie powergamer's wet dream, and the Planar Touchstones did not count into effect for the many different societies, cultures and ecosystems of the planes. The whole concept of "Baddie X forms, kill it to get Y treasure/stat/whatever" does not increase my immersion into a fantasy world. If this is what Wizards of the Coast wants in it's planar projects, then I will have a hard time shelling out money for a product based on stats.

*rant over, end transmission*

Sun, 2005-01-23 14:29
(Reply to #24) #27
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Re: Planar Touchstones: Good or Bad?

"Krypter" wrote:
I figure it's time for another poll. What is it about planar touchstones from the new Planar Handbook that so infuriates old-school Planescape fans? Is it because they seem so munchkiny? Are they overpowered? Is the emphasis on combat the antithesis of what Planescape Is All About (tm)? Eye-wink

I'd say that the locations are rather interesting, but the idea that it's a powerup acquired through combat seems rather ridiculous. I'll use them in my game, but with some heavy modifications.

They were designed to appeal to min/maxers in a way that feats were designed to do, but without any game balance. They're overpowered for the abilities they grant when compared to how relatively easy the challenges are. If you tweak them, they work great for high-level campaigns, although you could create some low-level touchstones. However, by having touchstones all over the place, it makes Planescape feel more like a computer game or MUD than a true role-playing experience.

Tue, 2005-01-25 13:39
(Reply to #25) #28
Krypter
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Planar Touchstones: Good or Bad?

"jordarad" wrote:
I have never met a person who was into the concept of Planescape and also powergamed the hell out of their characters, who just rolled through areas to beat and break stuff.

Yes, I think that's true. Power gamers are not interested in Planescape, and if WotC attempts to tempt them in with all kinds of powerup goodies, it will annoy everyone without increasing interest in the planes. There's probably some sort of inverse relationship between love of hack-n-slash and love of Planescape.

However, I have personally converted one min-max rules lawyer to my Planescape game, and he's having a good time, so it's not a lost cause.

Wed, 2005-01-26 15:28
(Reply to #26) #29
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Planar Touchstones: Good or Bad?

I personally like the concept of the Touchstones, although not the way they are applied by WOTC. The concept of 'random' combat in predetermined places to achieve powers strikes me as incredibly shallow. I mean, for example, how would climbing a high spire in Lolth's pits and killing a few spiders grant you a +2 on climb checks and a +10 feet to climb speed (reeks of ROLLplay). The idea would entail modification.

Touchstones are places of great spiritual significance, not necessarily holy though, just be imbued with power of some nature. Personally I would completely remove the conditions and random monsters encounters and instead create a small quest involving the touchstone, mirroring its feel and atmosphere. What I would consider doing is including the Touchstone into a side quest or plot line (the culmination of a quest if its a particularly powerful one) The condition of 'releasing' the power of the touchstone would be the spiritual development or revelation the PC would go through after having experienced the 'feeling' and the story of the touchstone or maybe the journey itself of having to arrive to the touchstone. PS is a setting where belief is everything, so in this case, the belief or spiritual revelation or self discovery of some sort would grant powers related to that touchstone. The touchstone itself would grant no powers, but the change it brings within those who journey to behold it does.

Naturally the players would have to roleplay such a character development for the power to be granted (lsubsequent consistency would be an issue or the power in question might just inexplicably cease to fuction at a very inconvenient moment)

Thu, 2005-01-27 12:00
(Reply to #27) #30
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Powergaming in Planescape

Quote:
I think the stormtroopers of the Diablows style of tabletop ROLLplaying *twitch* is just about the antithesis of the Planescape genre of play. I've walked out of sessions with these goobers.

My Planescape game is also about great ideas and powerful ideologies clashing together. The most memorable moments in our game, however, also revolves around combat and self-improvement through XP.

I love the setting for what it stands for, but I remember the gleam in the players eyes when they triumphed over an Ultroloth after facing it over a period of almost ten years real time.

As Planescape is built around D&D rules and not D&D rules built around Planescape, its innermost philosophy and founding element still remains D&D. I think Planescape can be about powergaming and rollplaying as much as any other game, but with the endless possibilites and the backdrop of the majestic (and sometimes gutterish) planes that also takes on a new way of looking at things.

I have powergamers in my group, and they love the setting with all their hearts. I think this setting has room for anything, and that's what gives it so much appeal.

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