Planar Styles: Hell

First and Foremost, I do believe you have deviated quite a bit from the true spirit of Baator - even on your piece about Modern Hell, you left out many places and various deities were not even mentioned - as if they had no influence on the modern technology that just showed up one day! Second, where did you get your information? None of the layers of hell can be simply explained in minor (even barely philosophical) ideological taglines. I mean seriously, you say Avernus is the physical embodiment of Lawful Evil War? Where the hell did you get that idea? Did the paradox of the Garden (a site in Avernus that is slowly taking over due to growth and popularity) or Bargrivyek's realm (another area in Avernus called "The Peaceable lands" - not really peaceful, more fascist if anything... anyhow) ever cross your mind? Acheron is a plane dedicated to Lawful Evil War - not the first layer of Baator! I don't know where you got your interpretations of Baator from ( certainly not the AD&D guide to Hell) and I guarentee you that none of your information that you present is in the Planes of Law or the Hellbound Box sets of Planescape. I don't really care if you made changes based upon "Urban" or D20 "Modernized" ideology that is "supposedly" present here, but you should be able to back up what you post and explain why - which you haven't. I suggest severe censure for this kind of S*** you're posting here - until you've done some research and explained why!

It does matter in regards to what kind of modernizations and so-called "modern" technology would be available in certain planes, because other planes would be opposed to allowing Hell to get its hands on certain "technology". I said the whole "wouldn't other planes be opposed to this violence and such", because you mentioned that Hades would have shotguns as well as Mount Celestia. Why would a place of Apathy and depression have any weapons at all? The people and or petitioners of Hades wouldn't care - in fact they can't care! In fact, this would make Hades impossible to "modernize" unless you throw out the entire concept of Hades and create an entirely new plane of existence from scratch. I don't even want to get started on the Mount Celestia issue here - mainly because it isn't relevant.

Also, what you have posted needs a lot of work... and you are seriously confused about what each of the layers of hell represent... Hope to hear back from you!

I was implying disapproval, not anger - nor resentment. I enjoy the fact that Deadone did so much already - but I just think he/she could have done much better - and a "hell" of a lot more.

Okay, you are right - But if we are to "Modernize" Hell, we need to take into consideration all the other factors involved. I mean, even in Avernus - we're talking about Planar powers like Takhisis, Tiamat, and Bargrivyek - not just Bel! (who is in fact, not a Power, just a really powerful Devil) Also, if Planescape were to "modernize" wouldn't time have progressed to the point that the Garden might have conquered almost all of Avernus? I mean its very existence is immune to anything the Devils and their enemies can dish out, but it also keeps expanding. I just feel that generalizations of the nature of each layer of hell or any other plane is rather an unfair and poorly researched understanding of what they really are. I mean, I myself am guilty of this too, by saying Acheron is simply a Plane of Lawful Evil War - which is wrong - since there is much more to it then just that (Although, it is a place of constant wars outside that of the Blood wars). However, what I'm trying to say is that - this piece by Deadone needs more research and less generalizations.

Perhaps so, but I think you could have been more diplomatic - or just presented your own version.

Bel is the ruler of the layer. He has shaped it in his image, and it has shaped him. Essentially, Bel is Avernus. Any deities who may be squatting nearby are his guests, there on his sufference.

That's a possible interpretation, but Planes of Law implies that Garden only exists because some power of Baator (probably the Lords of the Nine; quite possibly Bel or his predecessor) want it to exist, that it's really only a cunning trap. The mysterious disappearances in Garden suggest its purpose is to collect souls for some distant aim.

I like your idea of a future Avernus that's been completely overwhelmed by Garden because it's unexpected - I like it so much, in fact, that I'll say it's definitely the way I would go - but it's probably objectively the least likely possibility. I don't think it's fair to criticize someone merely for going in a different way.

That could be, but there's no need to place all the burden of improving it on deadone. Any one of us can post our own additions/corrections/expansions/revisions, or simply post an entirely new article.

That's not to say it's not right to criticize someone's work - I think that's completely proper and even expected. But we could be so much more useful, if we were so inclined.

Actually, your both wrong. Bel is simply a pit fiend – one that the Dark Eight took a liking to and appointed. In fact, if you read the Baator supplement that came with the Planes of Law box set – then you would be aware of that fact. In fact, Bel won't even go into Draukari, realm ruled over by Kurtalmak – an intermediate deity – because “He slaughters any fiends of less then 'lesser' status” - to quote the supplement. Also, Bel is not one with Avernus, because if that were true, then none of the Lords of Nine could ever be usurped or replaced/rebelled against – because they are one with their layer. However, they can be - like how Mephistopheles overthrew the lord of the eighth, Baron Molikroth, and took the title for himself. I don't know where you both got your information, but both Tiamat – ruler of all evil dragons – and Takhisis – a greater goddess - exist on Avernus and could both wipe out Bel if they wanted. They haven't, because Bel leaves them alone – probably because he is afraid and not stupid. Also, Bel isn't even of Deity-hood, thus he is the weakest power-like being on Avernus. BTW, another flaw with this idea that Bel is one with Avernus is because Asmodeus' Constable would have no power over Bel – but in fact does. The idea that Bel and Avernus are one in the same is absurd ridiculous – one that only proves that neither of you have done your research. Well, I think they do and that is why we're having this problem. Also, they can't deviate from layer/plane! Otherwise, we would have constant planar struggles and none of the powers would have set realms or areas, because they would be under constant change by “roaming” powers. However, Takhisis will always be in Hell as with Tiamat, Kurtulmak, and Bargrivyek – that is their home and they have – by far- more influence on the first layer then Bel will ever have. If planes can be defined by Thematic constants, then the very idea of Planescape is meaningless – sure they have certain aspects, but none are totally devoted to a single constant besides an Alignment basis. No, Avernus is not strictly dedicated to War! Nor is Avalas – but a lot of places in Avalas are more so dedicated to war, but not all of it! Also, the Garden is extremely important to Avernus, because the normal laws of Baator do not apply within its grounds – which makes it stick out like a sore thumb. It also says in the Planes of Law box set – that the more people who travel to the Garden, the bigger it gets. It also states that more and more people are coming to the Garden. If we are to “modernize” Hell or Planescape, wouldn't this paradise in hell - being the only refuge from Bel's armies and the Powers that exist on Avernus – be the ideal place to flee too – and because of this, the Garden would spread out. Bel, BTW, has no control over the Garden. Actually, it isn't. The reason polar opposite planes exist is because they keep each other in check – I wouldn't be surprised if the minions of Hell were trying to get a hold of certain technology that those in the Heavens or elsewhere didn't want them to get – so they intervened. Look, no matter what, the Spiritual Grayness of Hades would prevent all, besides some of the Loths on the Oinos and a few demons and devils passing through. However, overtime, even those demons and devils will begin to feel the effect of the grayness. Also, Hades would never have more weapons then Acheron – I mean, it wouldn't even have enough weapons to compare to that of what Sigil's got. In fact, in the Hellbound: the Blood War box set – Hades is barely involved! The bottom line, the association with the Blood War is strictly limited to the uppermost layer and would probably mean that technology – especially “modern”- would have no place elsewhere on the plane because of the grayness. Wait, you expect me to be more diplomatic – but the point of these forums are – and not limited – to criticism, opinion, and advice. I offered advice and criticism – only to find out this person lacks the resources – yet, isn't willing to ask for information or more advice? And you have the gall to tell me I should have been more diplomatic? As if! I mean, this “deadone” goes by what is available online from other people – obviously, not something he/she does often. Look, if you remember, I said I appreciated what deadone has done – I just believe so much more could be done and I'm not against the direction he/she has chosen – I just wish deadone would explain a bit more why it is that way – without saying “because” or “it doesn't matter”. Deadone didn't even ask for suggestions on improvement – but instead shot down all of my ideas! I'm glad you liked the Garden idea, but I was hoping that deadone would have given me a little more feedback or even inquiry to why I suggested or commented about something that he/she obviously lacks any information about. I wasn't trying to put all the burden on deadone, I was simply trying to point out that his piece needs work. This didn't mean I wasn't going to post my own later, but I was hoping that deadone might have offered me to add some touches to what he/she had already done. I am inclined to help! I just don't understand why deadone didn't ask for help? After all, everything he/she apparently knows is from others online.

Ok on this I have to disagree.

While Asmo and the Lords of the Nine might have more power than your average individual power residing in Hell, I do not think that they have more power than every power and certainly not more than the power's combined. The powers have different abilities than the Lords and while they do not control the plane at large they are integral parts of the plane just as much as Asmo and the Lords. While they may be able to cut off and push out a few deific realms I don't think they could do this to every realm. Nor would it be in their best intrests as the dieties attract more souls and belief into Hell.

That's what he was originally, yes (although the coup had as much to do with Bel's own ambition and cleverness - and the aid of the Sign of One faction - as the Dark Eight's help); since then he's been draining power from his imprisoned predecessor, and now he is much more.

My source is Colin McComb's (who wrote the Baator book in Planes of Law) article in Dragon #223.

"The Lords are each set over a single layer of Baator, their presence twisting and warping their layers to be more precisely what they t hemselves embody. Thus it is that Avernus, the first layer, is a blasted and scarred wasteland, perfect for training the armies of the baatezu in the endlesss Blood War."

and then later:

"The Lords are some of the most powerful bashers in the known cosmos. They control whole layers of a plane, which is far more than most powers can claim."

and then later:

"In a sense, the Lords are their layers. They have the ability to shake the land around them, to make it erupt and heave up its contents. They can see all through their layer, piercing through nearly any veil thrown up for privacy."

Yeah, I exaggerated a little for effect. A Lord of the Nine has no power over the gods in their sovereign realms. They're approximately of equal power, in fact - note the rivalry between Set and Levistus, where each is trying to defeat the other. Set is unable to topple Levistus, and Levistus is thus far unable to drive Set out of Stygia. It's said that Set's realm is shrinking, though.

Rumor has it that one of the Lord of the Nine forced the orcish pantheon to flee to Acheron. Perhaps Bel can't do that yet - not until he completely drains his predecessor - or perhaps he merely does not wish to.

They are one with their layers. However, this isn't necessarily a permanent state; all a usurper has to do is convince the layer (through show of cleverness or force) that he or she is more deserving of rulership than the existing lord. This is what Bel did with his predecessor. Still, it's a slow process fully merging himself with Avernus.

Again, quoting Dragon #223:

"The original Lord of Avernus (not Tiamat, contrary to popular belief) found herself imprisoned and entrapped by her warlord, the pit fiend Bel, thousands of years ago. She's now struggling to break free, but her struggles become weaker and weaker as Bel siphons more of the Lord's power for himself. For all intents, Bel is the new Warlord of Avernus and that suits the other Lords fine - at least, it seems to; they've not lifted a finger to aid their ensnared sister.

"However, because of this, Avernus has become a little fiercer, more brutal than it was under the original Lord."

No, they couldn't. Avernus doesn't recognize them; it recognizes Bel. He has as much control over the layer as they have over their individual realms. If he were willing to extend enough effort, perhaps with time he would be able to make the layer reject their realms completely, shunting them into Gehenna or Acheron. Or perhaps not. Regardless, neither goddess is stupid enough to try to fight one of the Lords of the Nine. He controls an infinite amount more territory than they do. He is not omnipotent on his layer, not aware of every little pebble or able to usurp the free will of travelers there, but he has an incredible amount of power, one even a deity cannot afford to take for granted.

Martinet? He's only a noble, not nearly in the league of one of the Lords of the Nine (see the hierarchy in Faces of Evil: The Fiends. His only power is that he represents the Dark Lord of Nessus. Bel might obey him out of fear of the Dark Lord - who has the power to replace any of the Nine - but certainly not out of fear of Martinet himself.

Absurd ridiculous? Wouldn't the two words cancel each other out?

Look, Dante. Cut the attitude; it's just a game, and one where multiple viewpoints is a good thing. I'll wager I've read the sourcebooks as much as you have, but they're just a point of departure, not holy writ. Colin McComb and I think that Bel and the other Lords of the Nine are extremely powerful on the plane they control. You might wish to play it another way, and that's fine.

That's quite a claim. The very idea of Planescape is dependent on the idea that planar layers can't have themes? So if I say, for example, that the theme of Chronias is holy mystery, or the theme of Karasuthra is creatures of the night, or the theme of Pelion is forgotten passions, or the theme of Agathion is imprisoned madness - all that renders the entire campaign meaningless?

I'll agree that most layers are more complex than that, and can carry the weight of multiple themes and meanings. I won't agree that summarizing them delegitimizes the entire multiverse.

Maybe, if we assume that Garden isn't a baatezu plot - as it's hinted that it is - or that this plot hasn't already come to fruition. Don't forget that Avernus is infinite, so no matter how big Garden gets, it's only going to be a tiny part of the layer as a whole - assuming, that is, that it grows incrementally and doesn't suddenly swallow the layer in a quantum leap, which is possible.

Yes, your idea is reasonable and attractive to me, personally. No, it's not the only reasonable idea.

Yet. As far as we know.

This seems unlikely to me. Keeping knowledge of a certain technology out of the hands of anyone who wants to get it is very hard. Once Pandora's Box has been opened, you can't close it again, as those trying to prevent small countries from getting nuclear weapons have found to their sorrow.

You should read Hellbound again, I think. The Gray Waste (or Hades, as the Clueless call it) is the site of the worst battles the Blood War has ever fought. Look at the Field of Nettles.

It's probably true that the misery and apathy of the Waste would prevent those who dwell there from developing advanced technologies on their own, but they don't have to. They can simply buy it from elsewhere, and the yugoloths are happy to sell weapons to just about anyone (yes, even on the two lower layers).

Yeah, I do. Put it this way: if you're not diplomatic, others are unlikely to listen to you.

Feel free to post your own future version of Baator. That's probably the best you can hope for at this point.

The sheer cheek of it!

The elitism you're expressing here isn't very productive or beneficial to the community. Not everyone is going to have the same amount of resource materials available. Those of us who have more can make suggestions/corrections, but there's no need to act as if a sin has been committed. Deadone put some effort into writing this; it's not exactly the way I would have done it, but thus far no one else has been willing to put a similar amount of effort to making their own version. If deadone doesn't want to change anything, that's fine - it's just something he's written, not an official product.

He might have, if you had been nicer about it. I realize it seems petty that the way we say things can affect others more than what may seem like common sense, but that's human nature for you.