Planar Renovation Project

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Hyena of Ice's picture
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Re: Planar Renovation Project

""Simply put, making the Inner Planes just "raw, untamed, undiluted" elements makes them boring. Without the character, there's little reason for there to be multiple Inner Planes.""
To me, it is the individual inhabitants and their environment that give the plane personality, rather than the plane itself. It all depends on the circumstances and races of the beings that live there.

""certain planes tend toward certain alignments," you are already attributing belief to the plane in the same way I am. ""
Yes, I agree, but it stops beyond the "true neutral" boundary. To me, beyond that, it varies by race, individual, and environment. Like I said, the Quasiplane of Mineral is a place of extreme xenophobia. Not because Mineral embodies xenophobia, but due to circumstances. They have good reason to hold any non-native with great suspicion. I can't picture them not being unfriendly and xenophobic to outsiders as a whole. Sure, there is the concept of trade, but really, what would crystalline beings and armored outsiders who eat minerals want that isn't already on Mineral?

""I'm just taking it an extra step to show that the elements can and should represent multiple beliefs. The beauty of neutrality isn't in its complete apathy, but rather in its willingness to accept and become anything.""
That's exactly why I am opposed to giving it specific arbitrary traits (e.g. the people of fire are passionate and emotional, the people of ice are apathetic, etc.) The Elemental Planes can embody anything, just as you said-- it varies by species, environment, etc. By assigning specific personality traits to the entire plane, you limit what it can be. I admit I am doing that to a degree with mineral, but I just can't fathom it being (from a logical standpoint) any other way. I mean you're talking about a plane where outsiders come all the time and steal from your land.

""I don't think Pathguy is on the right track all the time. Ice can be beautiful as well as dreary, delicate as well as sharp. Don't all four of those aspects deserve to be a part of Ice's character?""
Yes. However, I would not want to limit it to just those concepts.

""Does that help put it in a better perspective? I'm not trying to say the Inner Planes should be formed by belief itself, but I think that removing abstract concepts and beliefs entirely from the Inner Planes is shortsighted and ultimately dull.""
Somewhat. I still disagree that it becomes dull without abstract concepts. Mainly because, once again, unlike the Outer Planes where both the plane and the people are defined by abstract concepts, I view the people of the Inner Planes alone as defining the abstract concepts, only to a much greater variety. Different towns and different races would symbolize different abstract aspects of the element, and this goes on to detail some of the conflict on these planes.

Aik
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Re: Planar Renovation Project

I agree with Centre of All here - but see where Hyena is coming from...

But ultimately, I think that belief and theme is one of the key things that makes Planescape interesting, and if it's just a plane full of fire and people who happen to live there ... eh.

One unified theme for each inner plane would suck, but having a look at what people believe about (say) fire and working that into the plane is a good idea. There are reasons why things like purification and destruction are associated with fire.

The Outer Planes exist because people believe in those concepts, and thus closely reflect them.
The Inner Planes exist because they're fundamental - but the concepts which people associate with them are already there. They're not as dominant as with the Outer Planes because ultimately they're still about their element rather than a theme - but the themes that people see in fire are real things that would exist in a plane that is fundamentally about fire.

So, if there's a culture that associates purification with fire - chances are that there's going to be at least some aspect of purification in Fire somewhere - it's part and parcel of the whole 'fire' deal - they're getting it from somewhere, rather than the abtract.

That's my justification, anyway. Even without a justification, it's probably still a good idea to give the inner planes character - our group used to play an episodic game with a new Plane each session ... yeah, the inner planes were never picked. They're just not as captivating as planes which personify a belief - it's just a ... whole lot of fire.

Edit:
I guess what I'm saying more succinctly is: The Plane of Fire should be about fire and everything associated with it - rather than just a plane where everything is on fire.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project

I don't think you guys are disagreeing as much as you think you are. In fact, I think the root of your disagreement is circular, and is based on one great misreading about Planescape, largely perpetuated by the literature itself. Always people talk about how the planes are shaped by belief, and how belief is power on the planes as if this is something that sets Planescape apart. This is misleading for two reasons.

First, it underemphasizes how belief is a two way street. Belief may change a place, but a place can change a basher's beliefs too. If a place is isolated and covered in forest, it isn't going to attract many urbanite social butterflies, and those that get stuck there will be altered by the experience. After all, if they dont accomodate the place by adjusting their outlook a little, it won't be long before they end up in the dead book. A blood can't exactly order his meal from the local restaurant in the Beastlands or expect the Harmonium to protect them from a stalking Jaguar. There is a circular process there, a give and take of belief and believer. Perhaps it's a part of the unity of rings. Whose to say?

Second, because the effects of belief can be so direct in Planescape, people sometimes forget that the primary way belief changes things in Planescape is the same way belief changes things here on Earth. Action. Even in Planescape, a bunch of cutters can get together and reshape a place the old fashioned way, and whose to say that the elemental planes are any different?

Think of it this way. The plane of fire is, funnily enough, largely made of fire and other hot stuff. So naturally, it's gonna attract folks who are attracted to that kind of force. People attracted to that kind of thing will undoubtedly share some common perspectives. After all, people with common interests usually have other things they share as well. So you get a bunch of fiery Efreets hanging out in a big ole' plane of fire. One thinks "Hey, you like fire, and I like fire, maybe we could make a club!" Sooner or later, these bloods make a City of brass. Thing is, they will probably find they share a lot more than just a love of fire. And so they make a city to suit their outlook on life. After all what kind of barmy would live in a plane made of fire if he didn't identify with it a bit? And if he identifies with it, its only natural he will build things to reflect that identity.

So in the end, regardless of whether people actually bend the elemental planes with their mind, the elemental planes will inevitably be shaped by belief, just perhaps not in quite the same way as the outer planes. And if it is shaped by belief, and we can accept that people attracted to an element will tend to share a set of traits (not one trait mind you, but a range of traits that any given individual will have to varying degrees) enough so that you can say, fairly, that the place has a certain character.

Really, how's much different is that from talking about real world culture? I mean, China and the U.S. are both made up of human beings that are perfectly capable of coming to a common cultural consensus, but most people would agree that there are a distinct set of cultural values of each people, and that each place has its own character. This doesn't disallow for individual variation, but it does allow us to make broad characterizations of a place. So why should the elemental planes be any different?

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Re: Planar Renovation Project

I think Archduke Chocula is right, Hyena. After reading your latest post, I realized we're starting to talk past each other.

We're both saying the same thing in different ways. I'm not trying to say that an Inner Plane should be pigeonholed into one particular aspect, but that all abstract and concrete ideas of that element should be represented. The Plane of Fire should have the destructive element, but it should also have the creativity, the passion, and the inspiration.

I'll try and dig up an article I wrote about a year ago about a creature of Fire that shows what I mean.

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Hyena of Ice's picture
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Re: Planar Renovation Project

""After reading your latest post, I realized we're starting to talk past each other.
We're both saying the same thing in different ways.""

Yeah, I guess so. Anyway, I'm out of ideas for now. (Well, I have a lot of specific ideas, but no more general ideas about the planes)

Jem
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Re: Planar Renovation Project

If I could restate something I think Archdukechocula is saying, I think there's a really good role for belief on the Inner Planes: namely, that these are places that shape beliefs, rather than being shaped by them. Therefore, I think it would be good, if our projects turn to the Inner Planes, to include sites, persons, and themes that play up the possibility to reshape characters' beliefs and possibly even their natures -- places for study and growth, to start with, but also skill retraining, level rebuilding, and threats to cherished beliefs. What does a Signer do when faced with a cultthat worships an unchangeable lingam on the Plane of Earth that appears to be an embodiment of enduring reality? What does a Dustman say when challenged by a ravid?

One interesting aspect of this on the Plane of Air is their history with the Wind Dukes of Aaqa. How did air creatures come to be so powerfully associated with law? Why are their djinn successors equally devoted to chaos? The Age of Worms adventure path contained some information on this group surrounding the Rod of Seven Parts, but I don't think I've ever seen an extensive treatment of possible ruins of the Wind Duke culture on the Plane of Air -- only their strongholds in their Prime empire.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project

As someone who has run a few Inner Planar campaigns, and done an extensive amount of work regarding the Inner Planes, I don't really feel they need some kind of great, overarching thematic re-branding. They ultimately have a theme: the struggle for survival. All the Inner Planes are in some way hostile to non-natives (though Air and Water are easiest to work around) and so functioning on the Inner Planes is about struggling to survive and accomplish anything in a backdrop that is inherently hostile. The Inner Planes emphasize the frontier spirit of wresting something from the wilderness and potentially making it your own.

One reason that I feel the Inner Planes did get ignored in many people's minds is that unlike the Outer Planes, the developers did not create good work-arounds to their infinite nature. The ultimately reality of Planescape is that the setting is unbelievably, impossibly huge, and that your characters, even at extremely high levels, are insignificant. This is the reverse of Prime material worlds where a few epic-level characters (ie. the Chosen of Mystra) can exert profound influence over the entire planet.

Personally, I think a number of the 2e planescape adventurers allowed characters to have way more impact in the multiverse, largely due to nothing more than being in the right place at the right time than they rightly should have. However, they did successfully pinpoint what might be called 'load-bearing points' for belief, power, change and all the good stuff that makes for great campaigns. Sigil of course, is the ultimate such resource.

What's needed for the Inner Planes is to develop those conflicts and similar points of concentration wherein PCs can have a real impact despite the cosmically vast forces arrayed on either side. This is a little tricky in the Inner Planes, because society is by nature disperse there, but it can be done.

Oh, and as far as setting, perhaps I should re-post the Slaan stuff sometime

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Re: Planar Renovation Project

I'm working right now on a project to flesh out Cryonax and some of his lackies (and Albrathanilar, his mortal enemy), and his cult. I'm no good at giving histories for artifacts, however (Albrathanilar the Great White Wyrm is supposed to have a crown that grants her a bunch of enhancements to enchantment and summoning spells), and one of the things that is addressed is the Entropes. Cryonax doesn't like them because they threaten his goal to make Ice the one true Elemental plane. HOWEVER... knowing Cryonax, he's got his lackies slaving away in his lab looking for a way to genetically engineer or 'reprogram' those horrible things to do his bidding...

I need to flesh it out more, but between Cryonax and Albrathanilar, Cryonax is definitely the lesser of two evils (though not by a whole lot). On the other hand, those two keep each other in check, and Albrathanilar is probably the only thing holding Cryonax back from conquering all of Ice.

Some of his other plans are mentioned, mostly under his "Cult" entry.
--He is slowly conquering the plane, though for the most part he has taken no action against the races that defy/ignore his rule... yet *except of course for individuals who defy him directly*. (These races are the Immoth, the Qorrashi, and the Frost Salamanders). There is mention that he may soon take action against the Qorrashi. He also covets the spellcasting prowess of the Immoth, but his herald has a personal vendetta against the Qorrashi.
--I forgot to type it out yet in my file, but the folks of the floating city of Tiera Minuut fear that Cryonax is about to order an invasion against them, and they're not just being paranoid. I don't think Cryonax would be stupid enough to do this unprepared (maybe that's why conquering the Qorrashi is a bigger priority), but currently I don't think his army is um... well enough endowed to take on the floating city. The only flying creatures in his army are white dragons (who aren't very good fliers in the first place) and mephits (oh, yeah, biiig threat there). Oh, yeah, there are also ice-element/cold-element creatures, but most of those are animals.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project

I feel kinda silly bumping this five months after the last post (and a full 9 or 10 since the first one), but I really enjoyed scope and direction of this project while it was going. Just curious if any of you folks would still be interested in revisiting any of the other planes. I personally would rather concentrate on the outer planes initially rather than the inner planes, but I'll follow wherever the conversation flows.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project

I like the shape shifter angle for the Exemplars of Limbo. (Sounds like a good rock album). The danger here is to not make them too much like the Tanar'ri.

We need a central leader / chaotic guy or maybe a few. Maybe different elements of chaos.

We need some reason for adventures to come to Limbo. Artifacts, treasure, spells, elements, materials found no where else.

Likely one motivation would be to pull the prime material into perpetual chaos that will get their attention.

I really like Githzerai the unbroken circle stuff should be included.

On the other side of the ring:

While I think morons are cool, I also think you need a new more imposing Exemplar there as well. They would oppose our newly created Chaos Exemplars. Friction would be created by these two diametrically opposed entities squaring off against one another.

Good vs. Evil (I think most adventures aim for the "good guy" roles. Hence, the reason they are in the lower planes)

Law vs. Chaos (This might force player to choose?)

The Beastlands is a great venue the problem here is it a "good" plane. The ultimate wild zone / plane, I think we need to play down the "good" angle and up sell the super wild zone. If you think of Magic: The Gathering kind of like Green. There is always a bigger fish or monster in this case.

While we are on the subject Acheron is another dumb plane. They need to lose the dice thing. Squares the float around smashing into one another??? Alright, we get it, dice, yes, very clever. However, the idea of a constant battlefield, war for the sake of war. That might work.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project

On consideration, I'm going to rescind my earlier comment about wanting to concentrate on the Outer Planes. Of all the places, the Inner Planes are really the ones that need some work, especially some of the more neglected, para- and quasi- elemental planes (Ooze, Vacuum and Lightning spring to mind).

That said, I'm gonna start a new thread in a similar vein to the two earlier ones (Arcadia and Bytopia if anybody is curious in taking a look). My focus? The Paraelemental Plane of Ooze.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project

Looking through all of the different planes (not quite exhaustively, but enough to get a good handle on things), it seems like one of the keys to filling out the Inner Planes is to generate bits of flotsam that don't completely match up with the home Element. The most interesting places in Earth are where Air exists (open caverns and such). In Air, the interesting places are locations of Earth. Civilizations in Water are built around solid objects (floating rocks, reefs, large enough living creatures).

So in considering the Inner Planes, you need to consider locations that seem to be appropriate for the plane, but aren't completely composed of the plane's substance. These spots will inevitably become the places of refuge in the relevant Plane.

Another thing to consider, is that the elemental planes don't necessarily have to be solely composed of their home element extending in all directions. The planes can have a landscape. The Plane of Fire is described as having solid ground composed of compressed flames, and there are descriptions of molten mountains. Magma is described as having a solid surface with areas of seemingly solid ground. Ice is likewise described as having a landscape (don't quote me on that though, hehe). There's no reason to think that other Inner Planes can't likewise have landscapes.

For instance, in considering Ooze, it would be really easy to drop the notion that the plane is composed completely of ooze, sludge and other such muck in all directions. Instead, you could replace it with the idea of the place being a sort of endless swampland, only it wouldn't be just murky swamp water. As such, I could easily pinch a location like The Bog of Eternal Stench for Ooze.

So in considering how to renovate the Inner Planes, at least two things become important to recognize: they could/should have locations that buck the overall elemental trend of the plane, and they can have a definite landscape instead of being composed entirely of the base element reaching endlessly in all directions.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project

People must have got off a good few ideas and then had other things to work on. This thread could use the bump... It seems like it wouldn't mind being an ongoing process.

I am focusing on mechanoids and variant planes of technology, but I also have an idea for a hook line that involves Aphanacts, Paraii, and a mysterious and passionless maternal deity named Matrice, as well as one other deity that I have not yet decided - some lawful neutral male deity that is a hedonistic playboy and would play a game according to specific rules. Which means that the Aphanacts will be available for more large-scale plots involving law vs. chaos elements.

I am also working on a material plane world (that is divinely morphic like the outer planes) which is directly connected to the ongoing activities involved in the Beastlands, which means that soon enough even that plane will not be as much of a mystery anymore either. Please wish me luck - as this is my next big publication project involving a full campaign setting full of material surrounding prehistoric and bestial ecologies. There will also be culture civilization elements there, so that it does not remain redundant hunting grounds for a player character looking for a storyline not involving hunting or being hunted. I have a homebrew neutral good variant of guardinals called dinopriminals which represent the outer planes aspect of the culture behind this world. The activities that take place here would have direct effects on the Beastlands Wilderness Beyond, and vice versa.

I can make a Quasi-elemental plane of time that will take the current one and blow it out of the astral plane in comparison. This one would much more dangerous to anyone mortal and/or non-deific, with the planar traits being very real dangers to someone thinking that they will simply toy around in an elemental plane to fool with the challenges of moving through time... Sticking out tongue Eye-wink Some elemental/genie of time or something could have a residence there is an adventure site was needed, or else we could have some new outsider to fill it with. What would a temporal creature look like or do? I can think of the temporal filcher ('Expanded Psionics Handbook') as an inspiration off the top of my head.

Each plane should get its own forum thread, with an index posting here on this one listing all of the ones made. I am working on Mechanus/Variant-tech, Beastlands, and Time. I will edit this posting and add the links in here at a later time.
-will

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Re: Planar Renovation Project

If you're interested in participating, feel free! As was said earlier in the thread, the main focus of this renovation project is to take the neglected and underdeveloped planes (like Arcadia and Bytopia) and try to spruce them up into places that you'd be able to go adventuring on.

We have a tendency to focus in on one plane at a time, generating ideas for a plane and tossing the one's the don't quite match up. The focus seems to be on collaborative effort rather than individual, though (although, there was that one thread on Ysgard that seemed to fit in quite nicely).

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Re: Planar Renovation Project

Since the wigwagging about Ooze has been dying down, I'm thinking about switching out to another Inner Plane. Currently, I'm thinking Lightning. It's described as being pretty much empty of any interesting features, much like Ooze. Plus, the idea of the whole plane being filled with nothing but impressive storm clouds and whipping winds just lends itself to a really evocative atmosphere.

If anybody has any other recommendation that they'd rather see talked about, feel free to make them!

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Re: Planar Renovation Project

""Another thing to consider, is that the elemental planes don't necessarily have to be solely composed of their home element extending in all directions. The planes can have a landscape. The Plane of Fire is described as having solid ground composed of compressed flames, and there are descriptions of molten mountains. Magma is described as having a solid surface with areas of seemingly solid ground. Ice is likewise described as having a landscape (don't quote me on that though, hehe). There's no reason to think that other Inner Planes can't likewise have landscapes.""

That already exists in the Inner Planes book; each Paraelemental and Quasielemental plane is surrounded by 6 border regions, coterminous with the border regions of their neighbor planes (that is to say, between each elemental/paraelemental/quasielemental plane is two border regions)

""For instance, in considering Ooze, it would be really easy to drop the notion that the plane is composed completely of ooze, sludge and other such muck in all directions. Instead, you could replace it with the idea of the place being a sort of endless swampland, only it wouldn't be just murky swamp water. As such, I could easily pinch a location like The Bog of Eternal Stench for Ooze.""
I disagree. There's absolutely no reason to do that when you have six border regions around Ooze that change its features (in this case, borders with Mineral, Dust, Salt, Steam, Water, and Earth)

The border regions are very important to focus on. Lightning's are particularly interesting (In its border plane with Ice for instance, there is a special substance called Brightice. It doesn't have any special properties apart from normal ice other than that it glows.)

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Re: Planar Renovation Project

Don't take my comments to heart. Mostly I was just tossing ideas out and seeing what stuck. I suppose my intent was to try breaking us of the notion that an Inner Plane has to be composed entirely of one solid element through and through, just so long as whatever surface/landscape is conceived of is appropriate for the plane. Such a thing might actually make sense for some planes (though it seems like it wouldn't for most planes).

I like the point about the border regions. Some of the more interesting landscape'y locations on the Inner Planes exist at the borders. Like I said in the Ooze thread, I envision the Choking Gale border region between Ooze and Steam as being a sort of open sea filled with mist and clouds and unpleasant things floating in the mire. Sail towards the Ooze/Water/Steam confluence and you're end up sailing through the Choking Gale and onto the Bile Sea.

That sort of thing might not be canon, but it stirs me and my imagination and gives me something to sink my teeth into when envisioning how adventures across the Inner Planes might play out. Coordinating a passenger transfer between a semi-aquatic vehicle bobbing on the surface of the Choking Gale and a Gnomish steam-powered flying contraption from Steam, all while having to deal with environmental hazards and/or enemies just sounds like it could make for a really interesting scene.

In any case, a thing to keep in mind about this renovation project is that we can break with canon to a degree if it helps to expand the concept of a plane into a place where somebody could conceivably set an adventure.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project

There's something else I'm thinking of doing, though it might be some time before I get to it.
You've seen my Inner and Outer planes indices. I'm also thinking about making an Inner Planes Illustration index; since the purpose of this index is as a reference for artists, I won't post it on this forum; it'll either be in Hall of Records or Civic Festhall (which one would be more appropriate?)
This Index will also be different in that unlike the other two I've made, this one will cite page numbers. Also, it will apply to all versions of D&D (except 4th, though someone else is free to post an index of 4E illustrations in that topic after I create it.)

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Re: Planar Renovation Project

Obviously I'm coming very late to this conversation, but I would like to share my two cents. It looks like a great idea overall.

Center of All wrote:
But to me, in canon prose, any overarching or thematic conflict that defines the plane's nature gets seriously lost in the shuffle.  As a result, we have planes that do not inherently create adventure.
Perhaps what the Upper Planes need is overarching thematic conflict to define the plane's nature. All upper planar inhabitants, or nearly all of them, want to make their plane as Good as it can be, but they don't all agree on how best to do that. Since they are Good planar inhabitants, I don't think that their competition should ever be as cutthroat or nasty as Prime politics, let alone violent, but they won't necessarily all be courteous.

I like the idea for Arcadia (I haven't had a chance to read the Arcadia thread yet), but I disagree with your idea for Celestia. To me, that kind of evangelism is Lawful Neutral, not Lawful Good. If a given religion or power is already Lawful Good, trying to harrass or worse, restrict with laws, those who practice it isn't Good at all, in my opinion. It's just intolerance. That's behavior I might expect in Arcadia or Nemausus, not Mount Celestia which is supposed to be fully on the Good "side" of the Great Wheel.

Instead of arguing which religion is "superior," and claiming that there is only "One True Religion," they should be tolerant of all Lawful Good religions, but have lots of spirited arguments of how best to embody the goodness and lawfulness of those religions by refining and purifying the practices and improving their devotion. Less of an intolerance, and more of a comparison of methods.

Regarding Slaadi, I remember reading an article describing the discoveries of a guy who got amnesia on Limbo and "went native" with the Slaadi. It describes the way Slaad minds work and how they communicate, and it was brilliant. I wish I could recall the name of it.

I can see both sides of the disagreement regarding the Inner Planes. I always thought that belief only affected the Outer Planes, but I can see the residents of Inner Planes embodying different personalities or philosophies, like Hyena describes. And I definitely agree that restricting each element to one single philosophy or personification is not good. Fire isn't just evil destruction; it is also be creative construction, and purification, and the limited destruction that makes room for more creation. In both nature and in human philosophy and myth, fire can be both a destructive and a creative force.

Same with ice. It can destroy, especially if it repeatedly melts and freezes (although I wouldn't expect much melting on the Plane of Ice...), but it can also be built up into layers that form glaciers, tunnels, and who knows what fantastic-looking structures on the Plane.

I can see your point Archdukechocula, but a Plane is an enormous world, and should have many different cultures. Even Outer Planes can have multiple subcultures, though they should all be tied into the Planar philosphy. I just don't see the Inner Planes being so shaped by belief that the very land and air conspires to influence people directly.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project

Vaevictis Asmadi wrote:
Perhaps what the Upper Planes need is overarching thematic conflict to define the plane's nature. All upper planar inhabitants, or nearly all of them, want to make their plane as Good as it can be, but they don't all agree on how best to do that. Since they are Good planar inhabitants, I don't think that their competition should ever be as cutthroat or nasty as Prime politics, let alone violent, but they won't necessarily all be courteous.

Most conflicts on the upper planes would be non-violent, in contrast to the Bloodwar. I remember Planes of Conflict tried to introduce smaller-scale wars across the upper planes, but it just felt wrong.

Some of the possible conflicts would be more like rivalries. The Deva/Asura rivalry is one that is barely explored. Perhaps the Companions of Talisid venture to Celestia to try to help, but are politely turned away because they're not doing things 'the right way' (e.g., not lawfully enough).

Vaevictis Asmadi wrote:
I like the idea for Arcadia (I haven't had a chance to read the Arcadia thread yet), but I disagree with your idea for Celestia. To me, that kind of evangelism is Lawful Neutral, not Lawful Good. If a given religion or power is already Lawful Good, trying to harrass or worse, restrict with laws, those who practice it isn't Good at all, in my opinion. It's just intolerance. That's behavior I might expect in Arcadia or Nemausus, not Mount Celestia which is supposed to be fully on the Good "side" of the Great Wheel.

Instead of arguing which religion is "superior," and claiming that there is only "One True Religion," they should be tolerant of all Lawful Good religions, but have lots of spirited arguments of how best to embody the goodness and lawfulness of those religions by refining and purifying the practices and improving their devotion. Less of an intolerance, and more of a comparison of methods.


A religious rivalry can easily spill over into more serious conflict, without either side being 'wrong'. Just look at any real-world political or religious debate. One possible adventure might be two rival LG religions having their followers start getting more hostile toward one another, and the higher-ups in both religions want the PCs to step in (as a 'neutral party') before it turns to violence - or worse yet, pulls a part of Celestia into the Outlands.

Vaevictis Asmadi wrote:
Regarding Slaadi, I remember reading an article describing the discoveries of a guy who got amnesia on Limbo and "went native" with the Slaadi. It describes the way Slaad minds work and how they communicate, and it was brilliant. I wish I could recall the name of it.
Link Please?

Vaevictis Asmadi wrote:
I can see both sides of the disagreement regarding the Inner Planes. I always thought that belief only affected the Outer Planes, but I can see the residents of Inner Planes embodying different personalities or philosophies, like Hyena describes. And I definitely agree that restricting each element to one single philosophy or personification is not good. Fire isn't just evil destruction; it is also be creative construction, and purification, and the limited destruction that makes room for more creation. In both nature and in human philosophy and myth, fire can be both a destructive and a creative force.
The sun's fire makes a garden grow, And forge fires temper steel. Why then are you surprised to find A fire that can heal? "The Arbolit", verse 3 (from the Magi-Nation card Arbolit, seen at http://www.dukenostalgia.com/mnd/BSImages/Arbolit.jpg

This quote always reminds me of the positive influences of Fire. Gods of fire in mythology (Agni) usually had a beneficial side, or frequently blended with gods of smithwork (Hephaestus).

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factotums
Joined: 2004-05-11
Re: Planar Renovation Project

WRT the Inner Planes, I always saw their overarching themes as neutral, unmutable things rather than beliefs. The plane of Fire is about Fire and everything associated with fire inasmuch as Elysium is about Good and everything associated with the overarching theme and belief Elysium operates under.

The difference is the Outer Planes are concept first, material second. The Inner Planes are almost the exact opposite. Material first, then you pull the concept out of that material.

My intent with the Inner Planes whenever we got around to them was to examine the different ways an element is perceived or used or considered by cultures and ideas across the Multiverse. Then the inhabitants and locations on the planes would evolve from those concepts. In essence, I wanted to do what you propose.

Fire is dangerous and deadly. It burns and destroys. It's also beautiful and helpful. It's associated with intelligence and inspiration in some cultures. Purification in others. It's used for cooking, construction, and farming, just to name a few professions. The Plane of Fire is big enough that there can be creatures and/or locations that each exemplify at least one of these concepts. A holy temple of Fire used for cleansing baptisms. A giant kitchen that has culinary delights you just can't find anywhere else. It's also the best chef's school in the Multiverse. Creatures that hunger for knowledge (I actually wrote up an article for this a couple years ago).

Granted some of the Inner Planes are easier than others but this sort of thing is exactly what I planned to do with them. Explore the conceptual nature of the element and derive creatures, locations, and conflicts from those concepts.

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factotums
Joined: 2009-04-24
Re: Planar Renovation Project

Center of All wrote:
Granted some of the Inner Planes are easier than others but this sort of thing is exactly what I planned to do with them. Explore the conceptual nature of the element and derive creatures, locations, and conflicts from those concepts.

Revisiting both Ooze and Lightning with this outlook would probably be worthwhile. I just kinda jumped in head first with my threads.

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factotums
Joined: 2004-05-11
Re: Planar Renovation Project

Oh, your method works great, too! I like a lot of the ideas that came out of the Ooze and Lightning discussions. And there was some concept-diving in your threads, too, so it worked out for my tastes Smiling

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