Planar Renovation Project

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Center of All's picture
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Planar Renovation Project

In Tequila Sunrise's thread, I introduced my ideas for an alternate Arcadia concept that I'll repost here shortly.  Be warned, there's a long post ahead!

I've noticed that some planes get a lot more love than others.  Baator and the Abyss see tons of action time.  The Lower Planes are generally more adventure-encouraging than the Upper Planes.  The Inner Planes barely get any canon attention at all compared to the Outer Planes.  Even in fanon, some planes just get more love than others. 

I took a step back one day and brought this concern up with a planewalker friend of mine.  After discussing with him, I came to realize part of the cause for this problem I saw.  As much as I love the Planescape setting, some of the planes are just plain boring

Whether it's due to lack of developer attention or just that a plane's concepts haven't been explored deeply enough, some planes really are dull and uninteresting as a whole.  Other planes teeter on the edge between boring and exciting.  Most planes have a lot of overlooked potential that was never properly or thoroughly explored by the writers.  Many of these "boring" planes have tons of neat little sites or they have a great baseline concept, but fail to come through as a solid unit when lined up with the whole setting.  This leads to a lot of planes being "superfluous" or "unnecessary," which is a major criticism of the Great Wheel cosmology. 

I've actually talked with my friend about doing something like this for a few months, but after getting positive reeception from the other thread, I decided to start up my own thread and see if folks are willing to jump on board and help me make a very long-term community project out of it.  Basically, I love the Great Wheel and I love all the planes in the Multiverse, but I think some of them need a lot more love than others to really shine.  Many planes give us a decent foundation, but the foundations need to be built on, and that's where the Planar Renovation Project comes in.  We take the foundations and the existing structures, build onto them, knock down walls, sometimes bulldoze the entire structure back down to its foundations, and then build up again. 

As I see it, there are two main problems with the "boring" planes.  Not all planes have both of these problems, but most of the less-used planes have one or the other.

First, a lack of major conflict.  Anyone with even the remotest understanding of storytelling understands that conflict makes the story.  From the time we were kids watching cartoons on Saturday mornings until now, we intuitively enjoyed shows, books, and entertainment that expressed a conflict.  Simply put, world peace is boring.  Nobody writes movies or shows or books where everyone gets along and lives happily throughout the book without a fight or a tiff.  Why?  Because there's just nothing to write about.  The Prince and Princess live happily ever after for a reason.  The real story is how they get to living happily ever after. 

What makes some planes boring is the lack of a clearly understandable conflict that wholly or partially defines the plane's existence.  Some planes, most notably the Lower Planes, exhibit conflict in spades.  Other planes have conflicts within them, but not conflicts that help distinguish the plane from others.  So we get planes like Bytopia that are pretty to look at and might have a little bit of minor, localized conflict, but really don't do anything to convince most people that it really should be on the Great Wheel at all.  The Inner Planes really suffer from this, but not from lack of potential.  Most of the elemental planes have intra- and inter-planar conflicts that were mostly glossed over or underdeveloped by canon.  Some of the Inner Planes have no real conflict at all, and the concept of a plane existing because it does isn't a terribly exciting prospect.

Second, a way to really differentiate from the Prime.  The Multiverse is a fantastic place, but many planes don't really offer a whole lot that you can't get on a Prime world.  This is a much, much more difficult issue to address, and takes a very secondary role to the first issue.  What sets a planar adventure apart from a Prime adventure?  The influence of belief is great and the Planes offer a variety of environments, attitudes, and concepts.  Unfortunately, some planes don't do a very good job of portraying all of that in a way that makes a player feel like he's standing on some vast new world that fully embodies the concept instead of on his home Prime.  Again, this problem is harder to tackle and in some cases may not be something that can be addressed.  Furthermore, the Lower Planes suffer from this much less than the Upper Planes do.  Even some of the Inner Planes get this problem. 

Sigil, to me, is the only part of Planescape that doesn't suffer from this at all.  Sigil is thoroughly developed enough and unique enough to be an incredibly powerful adventure land in its own right.  The City of Doors has enough flavor to carry the setting entirely, but unfortunately that comes with a Great Wheel that could use a little bit of help.

All that being said, I have to reiterate that I love the Planescape setting.  I wouldn't be here if I didn't.  But there are parts that feel unfinished or just plain lacking.  So the Planar Renovation Project seeks to go around the Great Wheel and the Inner Planar Sphere, take the foundation the wonderful Planescape writers have given us and work up from there to reduce the "superfluousness" and increase the appeal and character of all the Multiverse.

I've got Arcadia posted up over here for you all to take a look.  It is my hope that others will want to jump on board and help with the development, provide ideas, and otherwise get involved.  This would be a very long-term project, so there are no real time commitments or demands.  Still, all are welcome to include their two cents and I think we can all work to help out the Multiverse and really give the planes the character they deserve.

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BlackDaggr wrote:This is one

"BlackDaggr" wrote:
This is one reason I added a number of layers to Arborea (see my Hidden Layers of Arborea article). To me, the original Arborea design almost screamed "we ran out of ideas at layer 3". For the Beastlands, the 3 layers make sense, and there's the inherent conflict between the animals and those they see as interlopers. Celestia is an active plane, while Bytopia is its sleepy neighbor. It definitely has gotten short-changed

In some ways, the upper planes should be relatively conflict-free. After all, the good beings try to avoid harming each other. Some conflicts may occur because of differing beliefs, but the inhabitants are more likely to try solving things without violence.

Of course, one possible source of conflict on the upper planes is evil creatures invading for a particular goal. After all, good creatures (namely, PCs) go to the lower planes to free captured loved ones, or fight some big evil nasty, or whatever. Perhaps some powerful evil group wants to go hollyphaunt-hunting, or wants to capture devas to get their spark. PCs would be called upon to foil such activity.

Conflict doesn't have to involve pain, violence, or death.  It can just as easily be a peaceful dispute.  I think everyone can agree that "good," while able to unite far more easily than "evil," is hardly monolithic.  If it were, we wouldn't have a gamut running from Lawful Good to Chaotic Good.  And even though some may dislike the alignment system, it can't be argued that most "good" people have different ideas of what true goodness is. 

Even Elysium, the plane of rest, has some conflict in the "bad things happen for good reason" way.  People on Elysium experience misfortune because the plane wants other people to spread the goodness.  It rewards those that help and punishes those that defy it.

While evil creatures invading an Upper Plane makes for a good adventure.  However, the intent I'm getting at here is attempting to create conflict that helps define the plane.  It should be something inherent to the plane, something that makes it interesting as a standalone entity.  If I read the plane's entry in the Planewalker's Handbook, I should be able to get a sense that there's really something going on in this plane and this place is worth having in my Multiverse.  And while a place like Bytopia certainly has a unique concept, a "plane of hard work" is not terribly interesting.  People are industrious and work hard all over the Multiverse; why should I care that Bytopia exists?  What's there to make it more appealing than all the other places that do the same things?  That's where a conflict comes in -- to liven it up and give it a persistent feature that makes it feel less tacked-on.

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Hey Center, just dropping in

Hey Center, just dropping in to support the good fight here. I don't have much time to read, but when I do I will likely be yoinking a few of your excellent ideas for my own planar revamp. [And anyone else's for that matter.] Keep on writing!

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Sounds like what you want

Sounds like what you want is a series of defining conflicts that don't quite rise to arms: disputations, more like.  So what we'd need is topics.

On Arcadia: politics.  Everyone has an idea on how Utopia should work, and they beseige visitors with their pet philosophies.  If a visitor ever expresses a preference for one, he's instantly tagged as a member of that party, and treated as such by the natives.  The conflict is a propaganda war, with regimes bolstering their own people while sending agents to spread the Truth into foreign populations.  Of course, Arcadia bends itself to support any honestly-envisioned Utopia if people come together to support it.

On Mount Celestia: religion.  Everyone has an idea what the True Faith is, the best way up the Mountain.  Of course, any honestly-pursued faith will succeed, but proselytizers and missionaries are all sure that theirs is the fastest, surest way, as well as the best guide to the war against the fiends.  They seek to spread their religion beyond the plane among visitors and on the Prime.  Play up the struggle for souls.

On Bytopia: craft secrets and guild rivalries.  Artists and artisans vie to outdo each other in quality and skill; sometimes amazingly intricate, sometimes outlandishly gaudy, their products are frequently worthy of the celestial sphere.  There is much in the way of inter-guild espionage and the subtleties of business competition.  Visitors to settle regions are deluged with offers of sale and requests to judge who among the locals is the best at something.   (Shurrock has its own conflict, as it is an abundant but a harsh land, where those willing to work for it can extract the resources Dothion needs.)

On Elysium: built in.  The plane is just such a nice, peaceful place that visitors risk getting trapped there, not wanting to leave.  If you come to Elysium, come with a purpose in mind.

On the Beastlands: built in.  It's a wild place, even to the extent of altering visitors physically.  If you want something here, be prepared to take it by the rule of fang and cunning.

On Arborea: built in.  It's already a plane full of passion, with harsh terrain, tempestuous gods, and fey everywhere for a traveller to deal with.

On Ysgard: I don't think the boisterous conflict gets much more built in than here, where the love of a good fight is part of the nature of the plane. 

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Jem wrote:Sounds like what

"Jem" wrote:
Sounds like what you want is a series of defining conflicts that don't quite rise to arms: disputations, more like.  So what we'd need is topics.

You hit it pretty much right on the head :)  I'm not looking for battles, just something to spice the Planes up some.  Even the Upper Planes that have inherent conflict like you listed above, I feel the conflict is highly understated.  You get a lot of neat sites and realms which is great and really appeals to the latent explorer in me. But to me, in canon prose, any overarching or thematic conflict that defines the plane's nature gets seriously lost in the shuffle.  As a result, we have planes that do not inherently create adventure.

I like most of the ideas you've put forth and I will address them more directly in a little bit Smiling

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Site/Realm/Burg

Site/Realm/Burg Template!

To keep descriptions easy to follow, I'm proposing that we come up with a template and some guidelines for describing new locations.  Planescape has the potential to hold a large number of different places, so it will be very helpful if people can just glance at certain entries and know what to expect.  So I am going to put forth and ask for a few ideas for templates to be used in creating sites.

In this post, I'll write out some guidelines for project entries to keep the feel of canon Planescape.

Proposed Guidelines

1.) Write your entries "in character."  Most Planescape books are written from the perspective of someone living in the Multiverse and that's part of what makes the setting more appealing than others.  You don't have to make your entry full of Cant, but it should be written as if the writer is a planar himself.  Feel free to include skew, spin, Cant, and anything else that helps make your entry feel more personal and less textbook.  You can invent and use any sort of personality you want, and even use the same one across entries.

2.) Be concise.  Perhaps a word limit to be determined?  If your entry's too long, people won't want to read it.  And if your entry's too long, you may need to consider how clear you are and if you really need all that extra description.  If your entry can be summed up in one or two sentences, you're doing pretty well!

3.) Be clear about how the site fits in with the plane.  While the planes have tons and tons of mysteries, few darks actually stand out from a plane in a way that makes someone go "huh?"  A good location should feel like it belongs, whether people understand the darks or not.

4.) Follow the templates!  This makes it easy to read and follow when put up against other sites. 

Anything else?

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 Apologies for the late

 Apologies for the late reply.  Life has kept me either busy or asleep.

Where are the templates listed?  Or is it something we need to agree upon (which it sounds like you're asking)?  Or is it the layout found in the "Planes of" books?  (Sorry if this come across as a bit daft...hehe)

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Sorry!  Templates are on

Sorry!  Templates are on hold until 1.) We make some and 2.) I finish my end-of-semester papers >_< I have a LOT to do over the next week, so I'm putting this project on the back burner until I can breathe easily again.

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Fair enough.  For the time

Fair enough.  For the time being, I'm gonna work something up following the same sort of layout as in the "Planes of" books, and then just retweak them for whatever format we decide upon (it'll probably be a good exercise anyway, as any re-writing jobs are bound to be more concise and coherent).

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Okay, now that I'm ready to

Okay, now that I'm ready to kick this thing into gear again, let's get going.  It's a good thing I can do in spare time when I have it.   I'll toss the templates for site/realm building up here soon.

How would you like it if I set up a wiki for this project?  We can discuss it here to support Planewalker, and then use the Wiki as a knowledge base.  

Finally, which plane should we tackle next?  Does anyone have a plane they'd like to work with next?  Or does anyone have a plane they'd like to see worked on next?  Any of the Inner or Outer planes is on the list of choices!

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I'd like to see some work

I'd like to see some work being done on the upper planes first, and especially Arborea, the Beastlands and Elysium. I've always found those planes simply lacking compared to especially the lower planes who get all the attention.

Aik
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Bytopia please. As far as

Bytopia please. As far as lame planes to go adventuring on, Bytopia strikes me as the worst.

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I agree with the last post.

I agree with the last post. Bytopia is in some serious need of refitting. It is under-developed, is the best word I think. Many layers of many planes are. Elysium is probably the second. here are my humble opinions on Upper planes:

-Mt Celestia: I like the plane, but still can't remember all of the layers. Also, Archons themselves are mostly meh. Climbing: Consider usefulness. -Bytopia: Hardworking people who don't like adventurers. Developers could as well have said: don't visit this plane. -Elysium: I'm pretty sure it has 4 layers, Garden of Eden, mystery, islands. What's the 3rd? 4th layer is the most interesting but least developed. -Beastland: Has talking animals, lords, wildlife going for it, so it is OK. I'm not a big fan of day/night/ twilight layers though. -Arborea: Elves and Greeks + Sensates more than make up for it, but the 3rd layer is, as always, undeveloped. -Ysgard: It has 3 layers. They might as well have not existed.

 

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Evil wrote: -Elysium: I'm

Evil wrote:

-Elysium: I'm pretty sure it has 4 layers, Garden of Eden, mystery, islands. What's the 3rd? 4th layer is the most interesting but least developed.

A prison layer where evil is locked away. And on a related note, I have had no problems making Elysium interesting since reading Shemmy's Storyhour. That third layer is what makes the entire conflict of the place work with a little help from a BBEG. And by BBEG I mean Vorkannis. But that's just me. 

Anyhow, I'd vote for Bytopia too. It's one of my favorites, but it's painfully underdeveloped.

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Did Bytopia ever even show

Did Bytopia ever even show up in any adventures outside the Planes of Conflict hooks?  I'm thinking, but I can't think of a single occurance of Bytopia as an adventure setting besides that set.  It'd definitely be my vote as well for you all.

And also, kudos on the Arcadia work.  I'll admit, I was wary at first, but I really like what you ended up banging out for it, and I might end up using aspects of it in my own game if I ever bring things to Arcadia there.

Edit: Ah, wait, that's right, it was the setting for "Manxome Foe" in TSR Jam '99.  Well, that's one, at least.

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[quote=Dagon][quote=Evil] -El

Dagon wrote:
Evil wrote:

-Elysium: I'm pretty sure it has 4 layers, Garden of Eden, mystery, islands. What's the 3rd? 4th layer is the most interesting but least developed.

A prison layer where evil is locked away....

that's the one I was talking about when I said mystery. I thought it was the 2nd layer. The one I didn't remember anything about was Eronia (the real 2nd layer). I read it just now from PoC, and I still don't get it. There is nothing special about it. only two realms of 2 toril powers who share their realms with other powers and a mountaintop where aarakockra dwell. If the layer has a theme or meaning to it, I don't get it. The mysterious prison for evil is good, I have no problems with it.

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Wow!  I am glad to see so

Wow!  I am glad to see so much support!  Thank you, everyone!  

Okay, I set up a wiki at Obsidian Portal for the info here and I'll start filling in Arcadia over time.

http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/planar-renovation-project/

Anyone that wants to help out is welcome to submit sites, realms, burgs, etc.  I have put together a template based on the templates in Planescape books.  You can see the templates here:

http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/planar-renovation-project/wikis/r...

I think it'll be best if we discuss sites and edit them before we throw them into the wiki.  But once a plane is finished, it'll be open for site submissions.

So, the main vote is for Bytopia, eh?  I was kind of hoping for that and dreading it at the same time.   I think of all the Outer Planes, it needs renovation the most, but it is also one of the hardest to work with.

All right, I'll have a thread up for it sometime in the next day or two.

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Quote:Bytopia: Hardworking

Quote:
Bytopia: Hardworking people who don't like adventurers. Developers could as well have said: don't visit this plane.

I think it was supposed to be the plane's main obstacle, but weren't played right. In some way it's almost as unfriendly environment as Gehenna if you don't plan to smelt your sword into a plow. The locals can be suspicious and in the case of crime, adventurers are great scapegoats. And they can quickly discover that no one here is as helpful as people should be on an Upper Plane.

Also the plane structure should encourage "hard work". Even finding something to eat in the wilderness could be an epic quest, as Bytopia wants you to earn your meal. This is where Shurrock becomes useful. Isolated settlements, surrounded by hostile wilderness. Reaching there may be a problem, but the locals need protection.

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I agree that Bytopia is

I agree that Bytopia is terrible. It needs a lot of work (or, perhaps, just any work) to make interesting and/or usable.

 I'd also say Limbo and the slaad should be on the renovation list somewhere. I think they're fairly poorly conceptualised, mostly because D&D designers apparently don't know what "chaotic neutral" actually means.

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Bob the Efreet wrote: I

Bob the Efreet wrote:

I agree that Bytopia is terrible. It needs a lot of work (or, perhaps, just any work) to make interesting and/or usable.

I'd also say Limbo and the slaad should be on the renovation list somewhere. I think they're fairly poorly conceptualised, mostly because D&D designers apparently don't know what "chaotic neutral" actually means.

Really?  How's that?  I've always thought Limbo was one of the better planes in the Outer Planes in terms of concept.

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Idran wrote:Bob the Efreet

Idran wrote:
Bob the Efreet wrote:

I'd also say Limbo and the slaad should be on the renovation list somewhere. I think they're fairly poorly conceptualised, mostly because D&D designers apparently don't know what "chaotic neutral" actually means.

Really?  How's that?  I've always thought Limbo was one of the better planes in the Outer Planes in terms of concept.

It is hard to visualise a "plane of chaos" that is different than what it is now, I agree. But this approach doesn't make the plane very interesting. Perhaps what should be done about Limbo is to elaborate it. Slaad needs more attention. , They lack lead figures like every other exemplar. Githzereai make Limbo a bit more interesting, but they suffer from the same problems as Slaad. Everybody knows the lich-queen of 'yanki But how about the lich-king of 'zerai, who, if I remember correctly from the 2nd ed MM, works just the same?

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Evil wrote: Everybody knows

Evil wrote:

Everybody knows the lich-queen of 'yanki But how about the lich-king of 'zerai, who, if I remember correctly from the 2nd ed MM, works just the same?

 That would be so lame. If so, is there stated that he is a lifestealing lich?

 Regarding the githzerai we definitely should usethe Unbroken Circleof Zerthimon, no matter whether it is official or not.

Maybe their kings could be the descendands of some leader who managed to establish her- or himself as a tyrant and then formed a dynasty?

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Limbo's fantastic because

Limbo's fantastic because it can be anything that the people living in a particular area imagine it to be - and being a plane of chaos I imagine there's some fantastic surrealism going on. The war between the githyanki and githzerai adds a nice plane-spanning conflict if you need one. I doubt a Limbo renovation would need drastic changes, and for the most part they're things a GM could easily come up with as part of their own plots rather than changing or ignoring things in the canon. Coming up with conflict on a plane of pure chaos is easy - it's the planes of pure boredom (er - good Sticking out tongue ) that you need to worry about.

 The Slaadi are lame though. I normally just pretend they don't exist Sticking out tongue

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I'll put my vote in for

I'll put my vote in for Bytopia also.  I always thought it was odd that both sides were described as being pastoral.  Instead, I'd rather see there being a strong dynamic between the two sides - one side is filled with the people who create the crafts and such, the other is the side that extracts the natural resources the other side uses.  Plus, the plane is supposed to be filled with craftspeople, but there are no outstanding great works in the entire plane.  I'd see it as a plane that's just littered with creative efforts (at least on Dothian).

I'll wait to expand on my thoughts until there's an actual thread devoted to it.  I have plenty of ideas to develop for the place.  

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Evil wrote: It is hard to

Evil wrote:

It is hard to visualise a "plane of chaos" that is different than what it is now, I agree. But this approach doesn't make the plane very interesting. Perhaps what should be done about Limbo is to elaborate it. Slaad needs more attention. , They lack lead figures like every other exemplar.

Slaadi have lead figures, it's just hardly anyone ever uses them.  Ygorl and Ssednam.

Also, I'm pretty sure not every exemplar has a lead figure or figures.  Baatezu, Modrons, Guardinals, Eladrin, and Slaadi do, and I think that's it.  The other exemplars havea caste that's the most powerful and you might consider them urstwhile leaders (like Tome Archons, for example), but if that's what you're thinking, the Slaadi have Death Slaad in that role.

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Aik wrote: Limbo's

Aik wrote:

Limbo's fantastic because it can be anything that the people living in a particular area imagine it to be - and being a plane of chaos I imagine there's some fantastic surrealism going on.

I'm inclined to agree here. As I've always seen it described, though, it's basically a bubbling elemental chaos, and that seems somewhat uninspired to me.

I guess my thoughts are coming due to my interest in a Limbo project over at Dicefreaks. There's more conceptualisation of the plane going on there - ideas like the plane spontaneously generating its own intelligences to shape the chaos, and randomly appearing dream-like scenes, rather than just fire! water! water that's on fire!

 Maybe it's just me, though. Maybe the official material on the plane actually is this interesting and I never noticed.

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As I recall, there are some

As I recall, there are some pretty neat spots in canon Limbo, but the plane suffers from the same plague many 1990s TSR settings have: underdevelopment.

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Well, I kind of let this

Well, I kind of let this project lapse over the past couple months!  Oops!  Well, I'm ready to it back up again if other folks are still interested. We've run through Arcadia and Bytopia now. There may be a few points to hammer out in Bytopia but I am very confident and pleased with how both planes shaped out. So, those of you that may still be interested: What other planes should get renovated next?

Alternatively, would you rather see the two already-renovated planes get more in-depth development first, like sites, realms, adventure hooks, etc.?  Arcadia and Bytopia: The Campaign Settings, if you will. 

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First I'd like to apologise

First I'd like to apologise for barging in like this, I but I don't usualy have time for forums, so I skulk...

Anyway what I want to say that maybe limbo needs another exemplar race that represents positive side(s) of chaos, since slaadi obviously represent destructive nature of chaos, hey they are even shaped like toads and frogs who represent evil spirits and misfortune.

Also here is one idea for Bytopia: conflict beetwen industrialisation and rustic way of life.I know that sounds lot like the end of LOTR, but here is explanation:

I think that more civilised layer of Bytopia is constanly trys to impose its ways on the more wild one, becaouse the multiverse is ever changing place, there are new technologies discovered every day, and the mayor dwarwen and gnomish cities has to keep up with the rest of the multiverse in form of produced goods, and in doings so it creates conflict between industrialisaton and good honest work.

Well, anyways this is not much and it is still half baked idea but I hope that someone will make use of it...

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Welcome, Squaff! Glad to

Welcome, Squaff! Glad to hear from you. Don't be shy about barging in. Everyone's welcome in the discussion Smiling

I think it would be neat to see Limbo a bit more clearly defined (I think this about many of the non-lower planes).

Your Bytopia ideas sound a little bit similar to some of the things we came up with. If you have a moment, take a look at the Bytopia thread and let us know what you think!

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I don't think Limbo needs

I don't think Limbo needs that much renovation - but overhauling the slaadi or creating something less ... stupid ... would be nice. Is there any precedent for an exemplar race being replaced by another?

Jem
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Yes: the formians replacing

Yes: the formians replacing the modrons, at least in some interpretations of 3.5e.

 

The Pathfinder chaos-creatures called the proteans might make a good replacement if you were so inclined.  It seems reasonable that the exemplars of chaos ought to be natural shapeshifters.

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Even besides that if you

Even besides that if you don't count that (as I know some don't), there's other examples in canon.  The tanar'ri replacing the osyluths, the baatezu replacing the baatorians, I suppose possibly the rilmani may have replaced the kamarel (I can't remember if they were ever an exemplar race or not, but I certainly wouldn't be surprised by the idea).

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@ Center of All: Yup, I've

@ Center of All: Yup, I've read the material and I like it. Smiling

So I gave it a thought and came up with this new idea:  new major conflict for Bytopia is this: it's in the middle of greatest secret war for territory the upper planes have seen it.War that is waged by dyplomats and emisaries, preists and prophets rather than swords and spells.

Elisium and Mount Celestia are contesting for two layers of Bytopia for centuries and now they are on the verge of splitting Bytopia in half like warm bread. As you know belief shapes the planes and both planes have  slowly shaped the aligment of Bytopian inhabitants to their liking trough various agents, events and emisaries.

Shure, both Elisium and Mount Celestia bear no mlice toward Bytopia, they only think that Bytopians would be safer under protection of two mayor planes.

Perhaps the layout of 2 current layers of Bytopia is final stage of long years of planing between Mount Celestia and Elisium, who knows maybe in distant past there was only one plane called "Utopia", or someting. In either case there is only matter of time when the peaks that conect two paradises snap and layers drift apart towards their new homes.

That would mean that Bytopia as we know it would cease to exist and Mount Celestia and Elisium would gain each a new layer, mayor planar event that would not pass unnoticed, or would it... Eye-wink

 

In either case I hope that this idea would put some fuel on fires of imagination.

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Just as an FYI, for those of

Just as an FYI, for those of you interested in adding more to the Bytopia conversation, here's the thread in question where the bulk of stuff was talked about: link

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Thank you, Wicke! I'm going

Thank you, Wicke! I'm going to actually post some response to Squaff in that thread in a little bit.

I've been thinking about this lately and it seems there's no particular desire to see any one other plane renovated. Limbo has some popularity, but there's also a lot of "opposition" to it. I'll have to re-read Planes of Chaos and get a better feel for Limbo before I decide whether to jump on it right now.

What about the Inner Planes? A friend of mine and I have been running a private campaign that takes place mostly on Air for about two years now. As a result of our campaign, we've fleshed out a small chunk of Air with some sites, people, and other activities. We're now beginning to compile a lot of the things we've done and intend to eventually make a netbook for that slice of Air that we use.

Is there a favorite Inner Plane anyone would like to see developed? I have a personal love for Salt thanks to the facets and to a section about it that used to be on the Mimir. But with 18 Inner Planes, surely there's something there.

Alternatively, would you prefer to just see more development on Arcadia or Bytopia? We've done a pretty good job of putting a fresh coat of paint on these places, but we haven't done much inside. It still has all the old cabinets and some of the carpet needs to be replaced. Would this be a more worthwhile effort right now? Something like this might eventually lead to a netbook specifically for Arcadian or Bytopian adventures.

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There's something to be said

There's something to be said for renovating the Upper Planes before delving into the Inner ones, though I wouldn't be against doing so if there was interest in a particular plane.  Personally though, I'd like to see Elysium touched up a bit.  It's a nice place, but as far as a locale for adventuring as it currently stands?  It's right up there with Bytopia and Arcadia.  It seems that it should be as prone to having non-native visitors risk losing themselves as the Grey Waste, though a visitor would rather slip away to enjoy the Good Life, rather than lose all sense of hope.  Imagine having to keep yourself feeling morose and discontent with something concocted on the Lower Planes to ensure that you didn't lose yourself to the boundless joy and happiness of Elysium.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project

I wrote up something akin to a planar renovation for Arborea in my article "The Hidden Layers of Arborea". I'm not sure if it is currently accessible due to Planewalker's reorganization. But I'd love to see comments on it, and whether it fits into this project.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project

It's under the faceted search for author:

/faceted_search/results/author%3A2382

I'm currently working on getting this system functional again, and the search index is being re-indexed. So you should see it becoming more useful over the next few days Smiling

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Re: Planar Renovation Project

I'll take a look and get back to you on it, BlackDagger Smiling Thanks!

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Re: Planar Renovation Project

I have a couple suggestions, if I might give some input. It's mostly in regards to spells and items.

I apologize for my focus on the Lower and Inner planes, but I never much studied the others, and it seems from what I did read of them that they lack the same extreme environments of the former two.

--SPECIAL MATERIALS There are too many metallic and wooden special materials. There are certain areas and cultures in the planes where these are unlikely to work. For instance, in extreme cold (Cania, Paraelemental Plane of Ice, Soulfreeze), wooden items warp and crack. Not to mention that wood is pretty difficult to find in a constantly subfreezing environment. Baatorian Green Steel would be too brittle on Cania to be used by Fiendish soldiers, and Eternal Ice would be insanely expensive to make weaponry out of since it's from an inner plane. I suppose Blue Ice from Frostburn could be used if the subject has the supplement...
Also, a special material (preferrably a crystalline substance; certainly not anything metal let's face it not everyone is going to have access to blue dragonskin hide) is needed for travel on the Quasiplane of Lightning.
Then there are the extremely hot planes. Wooden and metallic items won't work here, either for obvious reasons (wood burns, metal loses hardness at half melting point, and at melting point it melts)

--SPELLS
Frostburn and Stormwrack give a pretty good variety of spells for aquatic/seafaring and arctic/icy planes. What about the Negative Quasiplanes, though? We need more salt spells, for one. There is also a distinct lack of miscellaneous flame spells. A spell for walking across molten lava comes to mind.

--CURRENCIES
The standard currencies don't work on planes with extreme environments, mainly extreme heat and cold. (for reasons covered before). If someone were to make alternate currencies, obviously coinage would be best, at an exchange rate equivalent to the standard. They would simply be made of a different material or tempered with a different material.
On extremely cold planes, higher-quality blue ice would probably be best (or alternatively, tinted eternal ice).
Or, if we wanted to be REALLY lazy, we could just say that the same coinage is used, but it is specially tempered so that it doesn't become brittle/easily bent/melt at extreme temperatures....

--OTHER TRADE GOODS
This would add a lot of flavor. Dragon Magazine 347 had some inner planar trade goods under Elemental Hazards. More of this would be interesting and could be added to Treasure: Goods tables. It would be neat to see how much a jewel of Brightice encased in a thin layer of eternal ice (mentioned briefly in The Inner Planes under Lightning) would be worth (I imagine a nonmagical jewel that sheds its own light and comes in various colors would be pretty valuable)

--UPPER PLANAR HAZARDS
Admittedly, I haven't read much about the Upper Planes, but if there aren't a lot of hazards that target evil-aligned creatures, there SHOULD be. Like say, some sort of sparkling mist/fog in a region that gives evil characters amnesia (either permanently or until they leave the region, or until they leave the plane/return to their home plane)

One more thing: The "everything good is beautiful and everything evil is hideous" gets old and is cliche (I'm talking about everything here, not just the planar features). That's one of the few things that always put me off about the D&D series; with very few exceptions, they don't use the other cliche (evil being beautiful, representing the temptation to do evil). I'd like to see this aspect utilized more.

Aik
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Re: Planar Renovation Project

Ah - yes - currency. I really don't understand how it works in Planescape given that transmuting say - lead into gold - would be a fairly simple task. Also, there's no real scarcity - we have infinite planes - finding natural resources probably isn't a big deal - especially given we have a whole layer of Bytopia devoted to them basically (and let's not think about the Plane of Earth...).

So, yeah, Planar economy is confusing and kinda nonsensical - even given that your coins might melt away.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project

Time, energy and accessibility (and price fixing) are still all limiting factors that would make a given item have various values. Gold may be infinitely abundant, but is probably not readily accessible, is labor intensive to reach, takes time to find and mine, and otherwise requires quite a bit of effort, and thus has a good price.

In the real world, a good analogy is uranium. Uranium is incredibly abundant on earth, and you can find it in pretty much any chunk of earth you care to sift through. But both because of the effort involved in actually extracting it in large quantities and because of the difficulty purifying it into usable form, uranium is extremely expensive.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project

Hyena of Ice wrote:
I have a couple suggestions, if I might give some input. It's mostly in regards to spells and items.

I apologize for my focus on the Lower and Inner planes, but I never much studied the others, and it seems from what I did read of them that they lack the same extreme environments of the former two.

This is part of the point of this project (when it is running). My goal in launching this project was to see many less developed planes become more interesting on their own merits. Much of what you mention is very useful in an overarching Multiverse sense, but covers too many planes to fall within the scope of this project. This project is intended to look at the overall character of each individual plane rather than specific material (and sometimes mechanical) issues like temperature and spellcasting.

That being said, I do want to specifically address a couple things you've mentioned. And don't take this to mean that I'm ignoring your other things. I think your notes on currency and materials are good points. They just don't fall in the scope of this project.

Quote:
--UPPER PLANAR HAZARDS Admittedly, I haven't read much about the Upper Planes, but if there aren't a lot of hazards that target evil-aligned creatures, there SHOULD be. Like say, some sort of sparkling mist/fog in a region that gives evil characters amnesia (either permanently or until they leave the region, or until they leave the plane/return to their home plane)

This is an interesting idea. There are a few of these around. The first layer of Mt. Celestia, for example, is surrounded by holy water. Most creatures that enter the plane have to take the plunge first. As a result, not many fiends actually go to Celestia. Offhand, though, I can't think of any other major hazards that specifically target evil. They might be around but there seems to be a stronger sense on the Upper Planes that the Forces of Good stand ready to fight off any evil creatures that come in.

Quote:
One more thing: The "everything good is beautiful and everything evil is hideous" gets old and is cliche (I'm talking about everything here, not just the planar features). That's one of the few things that always put me off about the D&D series; with very few exceptions, they don't use the other cliche (evil being beautiful, representing the temptation to do evil). I'd like to see this aspect utilized more.

While this is also slightly outside the scope of the PRP, I agree and disagree. Cliches are very useful because they work. They tend to be closer to people's expectations and likes than many people want to admit. However, my feeling in terms of Planescape is that the good planes aren't so much "beautiful" as they are "comfortable."

Remember, each petitioner goes to the Outer Plane that most closely matches his or her own ideas and beliefs. Most Upper Planes are built around the "Heaven" concept - a sort of reward for a life well-lived. As a result, each Upper Plane should be mostly comfortable to each individual petitioner. Since things that are beautiful are usually more comfortable, the Upper Planes come out more beautifully than the Lower Planes (which are meant as more of a punishment for crimes committed). Also keep in mind that many of the Upper Planes are not without their troubles. Shurrock (on Bytopia) is rugged wilderness, the Beastlands dislike human intervention, Arborea has hazards like the bacchae and has the desert wastes of Pelion, Ysgard is constant warfare and its second layer, Muspelheim, is inhospitable to anyone that doesn't have protection from fire.

I agree that the latter cliche is under-used, but the Satanic concept of evil -- that is, evil as temptation -- is less used in general, even outside of D&D. I think something like Planescape brings a valid point in that temptation is not the only facet of evil and is ultimately just one part of many. Evil is unpleasant, uncaring, and savage, and it comes in many different forms.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project

"I agree that the latter cliche is under-used, but the Satanic concept of evil -- that is, evil as temptation -- is less used in general, even outside of D&D."

Depends on where you look. I suppose that's more the case in the west (with the exception of the villainess in general, who generally is supposed to represent the tempting and deceptive side of evil), but certainly in anime/manga and such the villain often has a beautiful appearance (or at least a beautiful outward appearance). The concept of evil as temptation also exists in Buddhism, BTW (with Mara, who is pretty similar to Satan in many respects, except that he more personifies arrogance than rebellion) The Romans and Greeks sometimes (not usually, but sometimes) personified evil as tempting as well. Aries primarily comes to mind-- Aries, basically the diety of bloodlust and savage war, is depicted as EXTREMELY comely, and very charismatic (and he gets all the babes), but his personality and ethics are lacking (for reasons already mentioned, plus he's a coward when it comes to getting hurt-- even though he's immortal) This is poetic in that it personifies the tempting and alluring side of war.

Also, the primary thing I had in mind when I brought this up is the appearance of archfiends/archomentals/chromatic dragons/etc. in 3.5 (many of the texts describe the chromatics as hideous, the ones who become favored by Tiamat as even more hideous, and the metallic/good dragons as beautiful. Not to mention I was rather put off by the artwork of the archomentals in Dragon 347. *don't get me wrong, the art is good, I was just put off by all the evil archomentals being ugly/hideous save Ogremoch and all the good archomentals being extremely beautiful. Personally, I envision the evil archomentals as being a mix of beauty and horror, myself *e.g. I picture Cryonax's fur as having a nacreous/pearly appearance*)

Back on the main subject:
I picture most of the hazards in the upper planes being specifically alignment-based since, well, it is heaven after all. Seems to be established in the official materials that the environments of the upper planes are milder and more comfortable.

Admittedly, I don't think I can help much with this project as I'm not so good with locations and generalities so much as specifics and fine details. That, and my main interest is the elemental planes (which I'm guessing you won't be working on for a looong time), though I'm probably only going to be good with certain ones (I have a narrowed interest in ice and surrounding planes)
Hmm, lack of interest in special materials is a real head-scratcher to me. I don't see how you can describe the more extreme planes/areas without them, though I mainly have the elemental planes in mind (fire, lightning, and ice in particular) when I say this.

So what exactly is this project covering other than locations? Powerful NPCs and organizations? Culture? Laws? (I think I can help with the last two, though perhaps not for the upper planes; my obsessive-compulsive disorder just doesn't cover those)

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Re: Planar Renovation Project

"I agree that the latter cliche is under-used, but the Satanic concept of evil -- that is, evil as temptation -- is less used in general, even outside of D&D."

Depends on where you look. I suppose that's more the case in the west (with the exception of the villainess in general, who generally is supposed to represent the tempting and deceptive side of evil), but certainly in anime/manga and such the villain often has a beautiful appearance (or at least a beautiful outward appearance). The concept of evil as temptation also exists in Buddhism, BTW (with Mara, who is pretty similar to Satan in many respects, except that he more personifies arrogance than rebellion) The Romans and Greeks sometimes (not usually, but sometimes) personified evil as tempting as well. Aries primarily comes to mind-- Aries, basically the diety of bloodlust and savage war, is depicted as EXTREMELY comely, and very charismatic (and he gets all the babes), but his personality and ethics are lacking (for reasons already mentioned, plus he's a coward when it comes to getting hurt-- even though he's immortal) This is poetic in that it personifies the tempting and alluring side of war.

Also, the primary thing I had in mind when I brought this up is the appearance of archfiends/archomentals/chromatic dragons/etc. in 3.5 (many of the texts describe the chromatics as hideous, the ones who become favored by Tiamat as even more hideous, and the metallic/good dragons as beautiful. Not to mention I was rather put off by the artwork of the archomentals in Dragon 347. *don't get me wrong, the art is good, I was just put off by all the evil archomentals being ugly/hideous save Ogremoch and all the good archomentals being extremely beautiful. Personally, I envision the evil archomentals as being a mix of beauty and horror, myself *e.g. I picture Cryonax's fur as having a nacreous/pearly appearance*)

Back on the main subject:
I picture most of the hazards in the upper planes being specifically alignment-based since, well, it is heaven after all. Seems to be established in the official materials that the environments of the upper planes are milder and more comfortable.

Admittedly, I don't think I can help much with this project as I'm not so good with locations and generalities so much as specifics and fine details. That, and my main interest is the elemental planes (which I'm guessing you won't be working on for a looong time), though I'm probably only going to be good with certain ones (I have a narrowed interest in ice and surrounding planes)
Hmm, lack of interest in special materials is a real head-scratcher to me. I don't see how you can describe the more extreme planes/areas without them, though I mainly have the elemental planes in mind (fire, lightning, and ice in particular) when I say this.

So what exactly is this project covering other than locations? Powerful NPCs and organizations? Culture? Laws? (I think I can help with the last two, though perhaps not for the upper planes; my obsessive-compulsive disorder just doesn't cover those)

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Re: Planar Renovation Project

Hyena of Ice wrote:
Back on the main subject: I picture most of the hazards in the upper planes being specifically alignment-based since, well, it is heaven after all. Seems to be established in the official materials that the environments of the upper planes are milder and more comfortable.

Yes and no. Like I mentioned above, the Upper Planes are not without their natural, catch-all hazards. Someone on Shurrock not ready for the sheer ruggedness probably will find himself in the dead-book. The Beastlands would just as soon eat you as let you hang around if you're not an animal or petitioner.

Quote:
Admittedly, I don't think I can help much with this project as I'm not so good with locations and generalities so much as specifics and fine details. That, and my main interest is the elemental planes (which I'm guessing you won't be working on for a looong time), though I'm probably only going to be good with certain ones (I have a narrowed interest in ice and surrounding planes) Hmm, lack of interest in special materials is a real head-scratcher to me. I don't see how you can describe the more extreme planes/areas without them, though I mainly have the elemental planes in mind (fire, lightning, and ice in particular) when I say this.

I like the Inner Planes, too, and I've been working on some of my own projects related to the Inner Planes. Most of the articles I've posted here are sites throughout the Inner Planes. One of my big long-term projects is Aremshah, an effort to develop a chunk of Air for adventuring purposes. My now-defunct PbP game, War of the Facets, was intended to take place entirely on the Inner Planes. I have a few other ideas based on locations I've used in roleplaying. In terms of this project, we may not get to them for a while. See below.

Quote:
So what exactly is this project covering other than locations? Powerful NPCs and organizations? Culture? Laws? (I think I can help with the last two, though perhaps not for the upper planes; my obsessive-compulsive disorder just doesn't cover those)

This project is not about locations. It's about character. The locations, NPCs, and organizations come later. Culture and laws may or may not come around at the beginning - it's a case-by-case basis.

In short, several planes, particularly Lower Planes, are much better developed than others. Many planes, like several Upper Planes, are just downright boring as presented. This project's intention is to address that "boringness." My goal is to start with the big picture. We look at the character of each plane and try to address what makes it less interesting. Then, we attempt to develop that character to bring the plane to life. Again, the project starts with the plane as a whole.

It's been a while since I put forth a plane to work on. I know I keep saying I want to revisit this project, and I do, but it's hard right now to find enough time to just sit down and throw out some thoughts.

You can see what we've done so far on both Arcadia and Bytopia.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project

Hmm, that's REALLY general stuff... Again, that's not the sort of thing I can help with as I'm more a details person, and as for the elemental planes, I don't think they even have a consistent social theme like the Outer Planes do (xenophobia seems to be a pretty consistent theme with elementals, though. I don't know if you consider racism too mature or not for this site, but if not I always envisioned the elementals as generally having a superiority complex vs. organic creatures that would manifest anywhere from pity to condescension, and use terms like "fleshling".)

A more specific idea I had is of elemental shepherds: servants of the good archomentals. They are similar (in function) to neutral good druids and are given one of two tasks: A. protect matter/energy wells that are likely to attain sentience B. rear elementite swarms. The elemental shepherd endeavors to teach elementite swarms how to be good elementals (though most probably end up neutral anyway, it's likely that fewer end up as evil). The existence of elemental shepherds would also highlight the difference between goodness and the generally neutral nature of the plane and its inhabitants where it's normally all about survival of the fittest.
If you guys like this idea, then maybe someday there can be a template for them. As far as encounters, an elemental shepherd would be extremely rare, with maybe one in 25-50 elementite swarms having a shepherd. The shepherds hold complete sway over the elementites, and will command them not to harm/touch sentient beings vulnerable to their effects. Though benevolent, they are vicious protectors of their swarms, and will not hesitate to kill anyone they deem a threat to their precious elementites.

While all the elemental planes are neutral, some lean more towards evil than others (as evidenced by their inhabitants). Air seems to lean more towards good or at least true neutrality, whereas outsider and magical beast inhabitants of fire and ice are overwhelmingly evil (not to mention that Imix has dibs on most of the plane of fire)

As far as the nature of the townships and such, it would vary widely depending on its inhabitants and rulers, mainly for alignment reasons.
The overall theme, at least in my opinion, is going to be survival of the fittest and continuation of family line, just like what is seen in animals.
Both the neutral and evil creatures are going to be in competition to end up in a position of power or rulership, which reflects the neutrality of the elemental planes; just as any animal competes for dominance, as do the inhabitants of truly neutral planes, be they inner or outer (at least that's how I view it anyway). After all, the higher on the social ladder the subject is, the better access he or she has to resources, and the creature with the most resources has the best chance for survival. In elemental (and many Outland) cities, this means you would see the emergence of powerful families. True neutral creatures/families would likely be capable of doing just about anything (short of killing or harming innocents except in rare or extreme circumstances) to advance on the social ladder, but one thing that is a constant: they generally will not turn on other members of their own family. Sure, they'll bicker, they may act against one another to some degree, but they will never betray one of their own, and woe to he or she who tries or succeeds in bringing harm to such an outsider's family.
Elementals of course are a different case; there are no familial bonds, and, from a purely logical standpoint, there would be no such thing as brotherhood among elementals, not even those who were born from the same rock formation or whirlwind. Why? genetics. Elementals have no reason for a drive to preserve fellow whirlwind/rock-brothers and sisters because they lack genetic material or reproductive powers. Whereas with creatures who reproduce sexually who are made of flesh, it makes sense for them to possess a drive to protect family, since even if that individual dies, other individuals with very similar genetic material will live on, and possibly pass their genetic material on to later generations. This also means that elementals lack parental instincts, which by extension means that they do not protect the weak and the vulnerable; they show no concern for such creatures either way. (This is not the case among good elementals however, who, revering all life, wish to protect it, especially that which cannot protect itself)
That is not to say that there is no camaraderie among elementals; elementals can be either solitary or social creatures, and most would logically be the latter, since teamwork maximizes their chances for survival. Possessing the same physical strengths and weaknesses, a threat to one member of the group is considered a threat to all members of the group. Being very xenophobic by nature however, elementals tend to care little for those outside of their group.

This might not be covered by the project (I didn't read the entirety of the Arborea doc; I'll do that later), but some of the rules and customs of the Elemental Planes:
--Just as bringing a sacred weapon will put you in the Dead Book in no time-flat on the Lower Planes, and likewise on the Upper Planes if you bring a profane weapon, bringing a weapon charged with the opposite element (like say, bringing a +3 icy burst sword with you to the Plane of Fire) to an elemental plane will get you killed very fast. Likewise, bringing an elemental bane weapon with you into a town full of and ruled by elementals is also a good way to end up killed-on-sight. Most lawful outposts on the Elemental Planes have specific laws in effect against such equipment. The inhabitants of some planes also tend to get offended if you bring mundane items of the opposite element to their plane (bringing eternal ice to fire or a torch to ice comes to mind). Neutral and evil-aligned beings will usually kill you for this, whereas good-aligned beings will usually destroy the offending object and then give you a harsh warning.
Air is probably one of the major exceptions to this rule: bringing chunks of earth (so long as it's not sentient!) is generally welcomed by most outsiders, though air elementals don't appreciate it.
There's still an important rule on Air that can get you killed however: NO LITTERING! This is likely to be a problem near some of the more reckless/less 'green' outposts. No native of air from the arrowhawk to the djinni to the air elemental to the mephit appreciates eyesores such as whirlwinds of trash. This causes sooo many problems. First of all, as mentioned before, it's an eyesore. Second, there's the smell. Some people toss the carcasses of dead domestic animals and/or vermin (not to mention that rats and such innevitably end up in the garbage dump before it goes airborne), and creatures with an enhanced sense of smell (such as dragons) can smell this funk from miles away. Then of course there's the health hazard. There's always a chance that garbage can come back, in the form of rain or something. Ech. Finally, there's the risk to travelers that garbage moving at high-velocity poses. Responsible cities are likely to have strict regulations in place in regards to trash disposal and littering. This would probably involve reprocessing, recycling, and burying.
Then of course there is Mineral. This is probably the most xenophobic of all the elemental planes, and most inhabitants are likely to be hostile to outsiders. After all, what reason could a non-native of flesh possibly have for visiting Mineral except to take a piece of it home with them? People don't go to all the trouble of reaching Mineral just to sight-see, and if the subject is a dwarf, well, you can prettymuch guarantee that is not their intention. Most communes here are likely to have rules, or at least, 'rule of thumb', that non-natives be killed on sight.
Some natives might tolerate an extraplanar interloper, so long as they aren't equipped with mining equipment. Wielding a pickaxe however is a surefire way to get killed.
Extremely lucky (and I do mean extremely) adventurers might encounter a neutral good quasielemental or outsider, may permit them to take one or two precious gems or ores if they can provide proof that it is for a good cause (usually this is limited to curing a sick of dying person). Of course, proving such a thing won't be an easy task. All in all, you're better off just using an item or spell that polymorphs you or creates an illusion that you are a native.

Center of All's picture
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Re: Planar Renovation Project

It's general, but very necessary, especially in the Outer Planes. Each indivudal Outer Plane represents a single overarching theme. In my opinion, that theme should be something that can be stated clearly in a single sentence or question. For example, Arcadia's renovated theme is "What is good government?"

The plane's details by and large seek to conform to that theme or answer that question. To use renovated Arcadia as an example again, the details of the plane seek to define good government. Each nation and city-state has its own institution and own ideal of what a good (here we are talking about "planar good" more than "efficient," though both definitions can apply) government is. As a result, it does become useful to address the details, but not until after the overarching theme is identified.

In other words, we have to identify what the plane is about, then we can determine the details. To that end, there is an existing open call for more details of renovated planes. If that's something you're at all interested in, I recommend reading through the threads on Arcadia and Bytopia to see what we have nailed down and come up with something along those lines.

When the Inner Planes are addressed, the question of theme still exists, but in a somewhat different way. Where the Outer Planes deal strictly with more abstract concepts, beliefs, and ideas, the Inner Planes identify with much more concrete, physical themes. The Outer Planes are all aligned somehow, while the Inner Planes stubbornly remain neutral.

However, this does not mean abstract themes can't be identified in the Inner Planes. The planes are all affected by belief, even the Inner Planes. On many of them, gravity is essentially where you believe it to be. One of the defining principles of Aremshah is that it has a defined ground because of the city's collective belief in one particular direction as "down." As a result, a given individual is hard-pressed to defeat the city's gravity. (This gravity is, of course, reinforced by djinni magics to prevent anyone from getting bright ideas about suddenly changing the city's directional gravity.)

The gravity serves as a very specific (and rather concrete) point on how belief is relevant to the Inner Planes. Like I mentioned, though, more abstract points also apply. Generally, the inhabitants of an Inner Plane represent an aspect of their element's personality. Fire is often hostile, painful and destructive, and so many creatures native to Fire manifest these traits.

That being said, the elements have all been perceived in various ways in different religions and beliefs throughout human history. In Taoism, fire is associated with creativity and happiness. Fire in the Japanese five-elements system is associated with motivation, drive, passion, and energy. Judeo-Christian belief often attributes fire with perdition, but also with purification.

I realize canon Planescape identifies Fire with evil creatures like efreeti and salamanders, but I believe that relegating Fire strictly to that role is ridiculous, even in (or perhaps especially in) Planescape. As I just established, Fire has many different meanings, both concrete and abstract. Much as the archons embody the numerous virtues of Celestia and the tanar'ri personify the different facets of viciousness of the Abyss, the creatures of Fire should reflect the element's numerous sides.

This isn't to say all Fire creatures should encompass the entirety of aspects associated with Fire. The efreeti as evil genies works fine. What I am trying to say is that the plane of Fire should not be identified strictly on its inhospitable nature alone. The planes are infinite and there is plenty of room for expansion.

I use Fire as the hypothetical example, but the idea can be applied to most of the Inner Planes. This especially holds true for the four basic elements, which have abstract concepts associated with them in most of Earth's mythologies (and in many fantasy mythologies). The concrete is good, but in order to give each Inner Plane its own unique flavor, there should be some abstract concepts associated with it. Most of the concepts I mentioned that are associated with Fire are fairly neutral. So it's possible to assign these concepts to the Inner Planes without compromising their inherent neutrality. Even those concepts that are more good or evil can still have a presence to represent different forces competing within the plane (i.e., fire elementals of perdition vs. fire elementals of purification -- both seek to consume, but for different reasons)

Once this character is developed, then I think it becomes possible to really create a lively, well-formed Inner Plane. Indeed, I believe each Inner Plane needs its own individual character or they all become pointless. What good would they be if they're all effectively the same, except for their physical traits? Someone might argue that the lack of character is the point of the plane, but that makes a boring Inner Planar sphere to me.

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Hyena of Ice's picture
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Re: Planar Renovation Project

I spent over an hour editting my previous post, so you might want to read it again, sorry Sad
In it I adressed some of the overall themes of the elemental planes (as far as the neutral nature reflected in its inhabitants)
As far as the plane itself, from what I understand and have read, the elemental planes represent the elements and forces of nature in their raw, untamed, undiluted form, which is why they are so extreme. Traits associated with religious beliefs and such (purity, perdition, resurrection, wrath, vitality, and passion for fire, for instance) is relegated more to the outer planes. I have seen some folks try to assign personality traits and such to the elemental planes (Pathguy comes to mind), but I dislike the idea of assigning personality traits and themes to the plane and its inhabitants in general (for instance, on Pathguy it goes on about how emotion dies on Ice) Certainly this is reflected in some of the inhabitants, especially the NPCs (e.g. the evil Archomentals' personalities fit this theme pretty well) but this is not always the case. Personally, I think such things are more fitting for the Outer Planes than for the inner ones... other than maybe Shadow.

Center of All's picture
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Re: Planar Renovation Project

I disagree -- I suspect we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this point, too.

Simply put, making the Inner Planes just "raw, untamed, undiluted" elements makes them boring. Without the character, there's little reason for there to be multiple Inner Planes. I suspect this might be a small part of why 3e culled the Inner Planes down to 6 -- there's just no need for 18 repetitive planes that are fundamentally exactly the same except for their physical makeup. The character helps give the Inner Planes a life of their own. The plane itself doesn't have to reflect all those traits, but I think all those traits have a very real place on the plane. Even the Inner Planes are affected by belief -- just in a different way than the Outer Planes. But realize that even by saying "certain planes tend toward certain alignments," you are already attributing belief to the plane in the same way I am. I'm just taking it an extra step to show that the elements can and should represent multiple beliefs. The beauty of neutrality isn't in its complete apathy, but rather in its willingness to accept and become anything.

I don't think Pathguy is on the right track all the time. Ice can be beautiful as well as dreary, delicate as well as sharp. Don't all four of those aspects deserve to be a part of Ice's character?

I think the key difference in belief between the Outer Planes and Inner Planes is this: Each Outer Plane is defined by one single, overarching theme. Or, the belief makes the plane.

By contrast, each Inner Plane is defined by a single, overarching element, and there are dozens of different beliefs associated with that element. In other words, the plane spawns the belief.

Does that help put it in a better perspective? I'm not trying to say the Inner Planes should be formed by belief itself, but I think that removing abstract concepts and beliefs entirely from the Inner Planes is shortsighted and ultimately dull.

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