Planar Renovation Project (sort of): Arborea

16 posts / 0 new
Last post
Palomides's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2010-06-26
Planar Renovation Project (sort of): Arborea

I was looking over another thread and it got me thinking about Arborea and wondering if I really understood what it was all about. Upon reflection, I think that my familiarity with Greek myths may have clouded my understanding of Arborea as a plane in and of itself. So maybe I’m not looking for a “renovation” so much as a clearer picture of what other people think of the plane
So going back to some points from the template I use for these Planar Renovation Projects; let’s see if there is some room for growth/development or if everyone (except me) has a unifying vision for the plane

*Point 1: What is the overall theme(s) of the plane?
The official theme of the plane (according to the “Planes of Chaos”) is “passion”. Is this enough? It seems a little lacking to me. I mean the fiends of the Abyss are fairly passionate in their destructive efforts. Aren’t the climbers of Mt.Celestia passionate in their goal to ascend. What are the Arboreals passionate about? Just simple things like amore and sensual enjoyments (meaning good food, stirring music, etc.)? If so, that seems somewhat shallow.
The planar opposites of Arborea are the tyranny of Baator and the destructiveness of the Abyss. This might suggest additional themes of liberation and (artistic) creativity for Arborea (which might play out below)
I’ve also heard suggested themes of mythic/archetypal heroism (tied to the Greeks) and playful/subversive mischief (tied to the Seelie Court)
Anything else? Anything above that is completely out of line?

*Point 2: Is there a source of conflict on the plane?
There seem to be a number of potential sources for conflict. There are the fickle and mischievious actions of the fey. There is the potential to become pawns in the rivalries of theGreek gods.

There is also a possibility that I’m lifting from 4E depiction of the Feywilds but which I think would fit well here. It was suggested that since the fey are uncomfortable with the idea of eternal imprisonment that was imposed on the titans and other foes of the gods; that the fey allow portions of the evil energies to seep into their realm and manifest as the great monsters of legend that the fey then hunt down.
If one embraces the possible additional themes of liberation and mythic heroism, this concept fits in well, providing an explanation for hydras, gorgons, etc. are periodically found on a plane of goodness for the Greek heroes and the elfin version of the Wild Hunt to tackle

*Point 3: What is unique about the layout of the plane?
Layer 1 – Olympus – landscape like the Greek countryside
Layer 2 – Ossa – mostly watery realm with scattered islands
Layer 3 – Pelion – desert realm
Nothing terribly unique (compared to places like Mechanus or the Abyss) but oddly, it doesn’t bother me. Does anyone feel that something should be added that would make it feel “planar” (aside from the infinite size of the layers)?

Admittedly, if I were writing this from scratch, I would probably made the first layer for the elfin gods and the Seelie Court (renamed, of course); and the second layer for the Greek pantheon (with the various islands mirroring the Greek archipelago and the mythic islands of the Odyssey). But I don’t feel strongly enough about it to push for this

Before getting into the potential of the third layer, let’s consider if the layout should be influenced by the theme of the plane.
One suggestion is that the layers reflect different aspects of passion. E.g. a layer of strong physical passions, deep enduring passions, passion that has burnt out (probably Pelion), etc. Since I don’t have distinct visions for the purpose of the first two layers (aside from one layer being land-based and one being sea-based), I don’t see how a different form of passion would tie into things; but I’m open to suggestions

The third layer offers the most intriguing possibilities. Pelion is a desert layer with hints of a long-lost pantheon. But what is it REALLY all about.
A lot of this has been said before on another thread about Pelion but some possibilities include:
-If Arborea is a plane of passion, Pelion might represent the most intense of the passions that have burnt themselves out. But like a desert that blooms after a rain, maybe Pelion revives after a storm(y passion) reinvigorates it
-This is a layer of cleansing; stripping away one’s passions and ties to material items to become pure in the same way a sandstorm will strip away all in its path to reveal a hidden core beneath
-Perhaps it is the graveyard of titans
-There are faint ties to the Egyptian pantheon here (pointing to the Egyptian gods of the early dynasties)

The possibility that I like the most is that Pelion was the home of Ptah and other primordial creator gods and that the desert layer is merely a bluff (like a false Egyptian tomb to confound looters) and that it hides a deeper region where Ptah and his colleagues use the Words of Power to continue creating an infinite number of layers/demiplanes (to parallel the (nigh) infinite layers of the Abyss or the effective infinite variety of Limbo) that spring up like dandelion seeds
Perhaps these infinite hidden layers are expressions of the artistic creativity (as opposed to the functional creativity one finds in Bytopia). And like creative ideas, these layers sprout off of each other in fractal patterns that continue forever

Does anyone else have a different take on any of this? Any better approach to the plane as a whole that isn’t just a rehash of Greek mythology? Any neat ideas that anyone wants to add?

sciborg2's picture
Offline
Factol
Joined: 2005-07-26
Re: Planar Renovation Project (sort of): Arborea

I remember someone on the PS Mailing List once mentioned Aborea having an island chain where an artist worked on their creations on a particular island. You could divide these islands by artistic style. They may even shift around in relation to each other, similar to the island chain in Ravenloft (Forlorn) but instead of being creepy this shifting around relates to the artists' and travelers' spiritual journeys.

I like the idea of Pelion having secrets and possibly leading to deeper layers, but I also think the tragedy of the place is an important part of what makes the Wheel feel like an actual setting rather than a static backdrop representing the alignments.

__________________

Health Resources: Register family with 911 services, so providers will have info prior to emergency/disaster. Also mental health info & hotlines, articles, treatment assistance options, prescription assistance, special needs registries, legal aid, and more!

cromlich's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2012-09-13
Re: Planar Renovation Project (sort of): Arborea

I mostly think about Sigil, rarely Arborea, my take on it right now is that ''passions'' is a basic concept from where you start imagining the place, but it's a lot more. After that you go on to passion for life, creativity, joy, openness to change, being nonjudgemental, living without expectations, acting how you feel, finding and expressing your unique self, unrestricted love, love of experience, emotion, nakedness, fun, and so on. High-ups of the plane don't command, people commit to things they are passionate about, some petitioners act like children, they'd hug a fiend. Also I think that the true exemplars of the plane are composed of pure thought-energy, I have them appear in three, thoughts (unknown, unseen race), words (true), and deeds (eladrins) personified.

Palomides's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2010-06-26
Re: Planar Renovation Project (sort of): Arborea

I appreciate the feedback so far but this is just re-enforcing that I don't have as good a grasp on the plane as I thought I did.

The idea of remote isles dedicated/converted to various creative and artist styles is a clever idea that is easily added.

Personally, I am torn on the role of Pelion. I do empathize with the desire to keep it a tragic and mysterious. But another part of me wants to solve all the mysteries I encounter and to actually have the layer serve a purpose other than just providing a sense of pathos for what once was or what might-have-been

Not to be too harsh to Cromlich's contribution (as I do appreciate any feedback), but all the talk about "openness to change" and "love of experience" make me question what would make the petitioners and eldarin want to stay on (the relatively "normal") Arborea. Of course that might feed into the "knight-errant wandering the planes" concept that has been promoted for the eladrin ("I was going to experience the heat of Baator when I came across a group of captured mortals that HAD to be freed")
The rest of what you wrote just comes across as a huge Woodstock/hippie love-in which seems a bit limited in terms of potential to my less-than-creative mind
I definitely don't know what I would do with an "unknown, unseen race" "composed of pure thought"

Again, I'm not trying to be too harsh since I'm begging for ideas and I do appreciate any suggestions. I'm just looking for some ideas or hooks that really grab me and make me interested in this plane

Dalmosh's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2011-03-13
Re: Planar Renovation Project (sort of): Arborea

/080306/hidden-layers-arborea

I loved this.

cromlich's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2012-09-13
Re: Planar Renovation Project (sort of): Arborea

Palomides wrote:
Not to be too harsh to Cromlich's contribution

Take an Arborean attitude and be as harsh as you want...

Quote:
all the talk about "openness to change" and "love of experience" make me question what would make the petitioners and eldarin want to stay on (the relatively "normal") Arborea.

Most and first of all they want to experience their own universe, want to feel how good they are, and Arborea is the most natural, not normal, place to be. I think the source for most conflict on their plane comes not from within, but from other planes, their openness, welcoming everyone gets them in all sorts of encounters. Celestia is closed to all who don't agree, Arborea is the opposite.

Quote:
The rest of what you wrote just comes across as a huge Woodstock/hippie love-in which seems a bit limited in terms of potential to my less-than-creative mind

I'm not aware that it is hippie, doesn't matter how you label it. I know your mind is capable of highly creative thoughts, you just need a passion for Arborea.

Quote:
I definitely don't know what I would do with an "unknown, unseen race" "composed of pure thought"

For me, keeping that as a mystery is more interesting. Or you could use something similar, flickers, soulscrapers, or incarnates.

Quote:
I'm just looking for some ideas or hooks that really grab me and make me interested in this plane

Renovate the planes you're interested in. Personally I don't think there should be Arborea, Olympians don't belong there and need their own plane, the rest is Faerie.

sciborg2's picture
Offline
Factol
Joined: 2005-07-26
Re: Planar Renovation Project (sort of): Arborea

"Most and first of all they want to experience their own universe, want to feel how good they are, and Arborea is the most natural, not normal, place to be. I think the source for most conflict on their plane comes not from within, but from other planes, their openness, welcoming everyone gets them in all sorts of encounters. Celestia is closed to all who don't agree, Arborea is the opposite."

I really like this as it gives a meaning to Arborea's Freedom that also causes natural conflicts. Arborea welcomes ministers of Order, elemental ambassadors, even fiends if they can keep themselves from misbehaving too much.

Heck, you don't even need fiends as the diversity of Upper Planar residents - representing different gods/cultures/planes is enough to cause conflict.

__________________

Health Resources: Register family with 911 services, so providers will have info prior to emergency/disaster. Also mental health info & hotlines, articles, treatment assistance options, prescription assistance, special needs registries, legal aid, and more!

Wicke's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2009-04-24
Re: Planar Renovation Project (sort of): Arborea

It's not just passion. It's the kind of passion that drives an entire war based on a social snubbing or to gain the love of a woman. It's the kind of passion that would drive a mortal to defy the gods. It's the kind of passion that allows a musician to play music that makes Hades weep. It's a passion that can get an individual move the planes if the individual believes enough in what they're doing.

Palomides's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2010-06-26
Re: Planar Renovation Project (sort of): Arborea

I appreciate the contribution (and the ties back to Greek myth - but nothing for the elves/fey?)
But I still have a two-fold problem:
1) I would still argue that the angels of Celestia are just as passionate in their crusading efforts, the demons of the Abyss are just as passionate in their hunger for depravity and destruction, etc.
2) the Greek gods were frequently fickle and petty and far from what I would consider to be "good". And in parallel with this, a lot of passions that move the figures of Greek myth seem somewhat shallow especially considering the subsequent damage that is often the result

So I'm still having trouble empathizing with the passion that is supposed to be the cornerstone of this plane. Sounds like I'm in the minority though

Ozymandias's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2011-10-04
Re: Planar Renovation Project (sort of): Arborea

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism

"Søren Kierkegaard is generally considered to have been the first existentialist philosopher, though he did not use the term existentialism. He proposed that each individual—not society or religion—is solely responsible for giving meaning to life and living it passionately and sincerely ("authentically")."

I see Arborea as embodying the basic concept of existentialism, as suggested by this quote. Arboreans recognize their responsibility and embrace is by living their lives with passion and sincerity. They do not do anything that is not worthy of their investment.

On Mount Celestia, petitioners seek excellence for the rewards it brings. On Bytopia, petitioners seek to produce excellent goods and services for the payment they receive. On Arcadia, petitioners seek to perform excellently for the betterment of society as a whole. Arboreans seek excellence for its own sake. Or they don't, if they don't see excellence as a worthy pursuit. Perhaps sloth is just as worthy of their time if the fancy strikes them.

__________________

http://crossingtheverse.wordpress.com|Crossing the 'Verse -- A Planescape Conversion Project
http://zombierollerderby.wordpress.com|Zombie Roller Derby -- It's roller derby... and zombies... what more could you want?

sciborg2's picture
Offline
Factol
Joined: 2005-07-26
Re: Planar Renovation Project (sort of): Arborea

Good thoughts on this Ozymandias.

I think Abyssal freedom is the freedom to indulge your whims over all other considerations.

To the Aborean that path leads to tyranny. You either control or are controlled. However, as Plato notes, even the tyrant at the top of the heap is not free because he must continually watch his back.

The Aborean might also argue that continual indulgence at the expense of all others, where the user also shapes the layer one resides upon, leads to imprisonment of Self. True freedom and variation depends upon the consideration of others' needs.

The Abyssal of course thinks the Aborean is just rationalizing. The Limbonian doesn't even care about the conversation because it's been spending this whole time as a lemon fruit pie and now it's a butterfly with a dog's head flying through a caramel flavored void...

__________________

Health Resources: Register family with 911 services, so providers will have info prior to emergency/disaster. Also mental health info & hotlines, articles, treatment assistance options, prescription assistance, special needs registries, legal aid, and more!

Ozymandias's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2011-10-04
Re: Planar Renovation Project (sort of): Arborea

"...caramel flavored void..."

I had to do a double-take, as I first read this as CAMEL flavored...

...but given what I know about camels, I can't imagine that would taste very good...

__________________

http://crossingtheverse.wordpress.com|Crossing the 'Verse -- A Planescape Conversion Project
http://zombierollerderby.wordpress.com|Zombie Roller Derby -- It's roller derby... and zombies... what more could you want?

cromlich's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2012-09-13
Re: Planar Renovation Project (sort of): Arborea

Yes, I agree with the existentialism - how good Bleakers want to live. Ideally, it's pure ''lust for life'', tanar'ri have lust for hurting life, and the angels of Celestia act on belief that someone higher knows what's good for them, their passion is in proving themselves, the Arboreans don't feel that obligation. Like in Assassin's Creed game, when you know ''nothing is true, everything is permitted'', the Arboreans know that giving freedom to others is for their own Self-interest - by the Unity of Rings principle they will also be free.

Palomides's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2010-06-26
Re: Planar Renovation Project (sort of): Arborea

''Nothing is true, everything is permitted'' sounds more like the freedom of Limbo to me (where one is "beyond the concepts of good and evil" - to quote another famous existentialist) but I think I see what you are driving at.

So does anyone see these broad abstract concepts affecting the layout of the layers/plane? Does anyone have any way to turn this into something interesting for gameplay?

Unsung's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2012-10-04
Re: Planar Renovation Project (sort of): Arborea

My ruminations...

Passion is everywhere, just like tyranny and destruction are everywhere, but on Arborea, passion is a virtue unto itself. Following your passions is worthwhile in its own right, and good will come of it-- somehow. The passions of dragons, hags, and devils give rise to heroes necessary to fight them. The passions of the fey produce objects of great beauty, places of wonder, beings full of grace and whimsy-- and romances and tragedies, in roughly equal measure. The placement of Mount Olympus on Arborea seems meant to suggest that for all their pettiness and flaws, for all the chaos they wreak upon mortal lives, Zeus and the rest are a force for good. That it’s rather debatable whether the good they do outweighs the bad seems fitting for the axis of Chaos and Good.

Ask: can the beauty of a single flower make up for the hardship and suffering of a lifetime? Is true love worth letting the rest of the world burn? How far would you go to save a single life?

What’s more important: good actions, good intentions, or good outcomes? I would say that on Celestia, all three are considered fundamental, but on Arborea, two out of three ain’t bad. Even just one of the above deserves credit for trying.

As Cromlich and Sci were saying, the openness of Arborea is interesting. I’d take it a step further, and say that Arborea deliberately lures in guests of opposing alignments. Like no other Upper Plane, Arborea seeks to tempt and seduce outsiders. And unlike Baator, it’s not a concerted effort, not some insidious political machine. It’s just a (deceptively) innocent, (seemingly) naïve desire to share and share alike. Rather than converting anyone, breaking them down, brainwashing or corrupting them, there’s just a basic acknowledgment that yes, you have a place here.

Rather than just being a forest plane full of elf-like celestials (who aren’t fey, but maybe they should be?) and satyrs and more evil-aligned creatures than is strictly usual for one of the Upper Planes, I’d focus on Arborea as the Feywild: the Prime, but moreso. It’s that kind of heaven-- everything you loved in life, but more of it. The good, to be enjoyed, and the bad, to be instructive. I would focus on the idea that sensations are heightened here, realer than real, overwhelming, disorienting. Senses and memory can be deceiving, to say nothing of the illusions the locals are so adept at using. Emotions and dreams are more vivid, time and distance seem to stretch and distort-- as with the enchanted slumber of Sleeping Beauty or Rip Van Winkle, or the mythical seven-league boots. Portals are not necessarily any more common on Arborea than elsewhere, but they’re kept open, and the paths are well-trod-- at least on the way in. Everyone is welcome in Arborea-- nobody said it would be easy to leave. Why would you want to?

So as a defining feature, I would have Arvandor/Olympus seem more crowded and eventful than it has any right to be. The Abyss has infinite layers, but many of those are quite barren; all the planes are theoretically infinite, but often rather sparse (Celestia crams everything into just the single mountain, infinitely big though it might be). Not so with Arvandor. What other planes spread out or attempt to catalogue into layers, Arborea simply lets fall where it may, like so much junk out of an overcrowded closet. Many empty spaces on the map are inhabited by sprites and chatty woodland animals, gnomes under stumps, trolls under bridges, monsters and cherubs in uncharted corners. Ancient dragons no one ever heard of before crawl out from under stones, villages lost for centuries appear by the roadside. Even the truly empty spaces seem emptier-- lonelier and more imposing, further from civilization, loved ones, the object at the end of your quest-- closer to the past you’re running from, to despair, to oblivion.

Arborea, as the Sensate’s primary plane of influence, is a plane packed with experience. Never a dull moment, literally. It is the plane itself which finds ways to keep you. People find themselves fitting into the narrative of the place without ever meaning to, so great is the allure of this particular heaven. Devils, try as they might, find their schemes lead to happy endings for the people concerned. Hags’ hearts are softened, as they find themselves reminiscing on lost love. Demons are redeemed, dragons tamed, on Arborea.

…That’s my thought, anyway.

I’d like to use Ossa as a storing-house for any place in Arborea that, by necessity, must be secluded. Sunken continents and forbidden cities, too, not only the afterlives of antisocial (but good-hearted) sages and artists. Avalon, the island of Circe, the island where Koschei keeps his death (unless that’s somewhere else already). I’d like there to be untold depths to the ocean, and perhaps destinations in the starry sky-- I like using Arborea as my Upper Planar port-of-call for spelljammers.

Pelion? A layer of rest, maybe, on what could otherwise be a rather clamorous plane. A layer for somber reflection, remembrance and forgetfulness. I picture a moment, where a drunken mortal, stolen away by one of the endless fairy revels to be found in Fairyland, suddenly stumbles out of the party and onto the great dry plain of dust and long shadows, perhaps near the foot of some great tomb or fallen statue. An ominous, sobering moment, a reminder that every party ends, even immortality, and that perhaps that is just as well.

Ozymandias's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2011-10-04
Re: Planar Renovation Project (sort of): Arborea

Unsung wrote:
Arborea, as the Sensate’s primary plane of influence, is a plane packed with experience. Never a dull moment, literally. It is the plane itself which finds ways to keep you. People find themselves fitting into the narrative of the place without ever meaning to, so great is the allure of this particular heaven. Devils, try as they might, find their schemes lead to happy endings for the people concerned. Hags’ hearts are softened, as they find themselves reminiscing on lost love. Demons are redeemed, dragons tamed, on Arborea.

This leads me to a mechanical application: increase the number of random encounters. Say you use a standard of 1 encounter roll every 4 or 8 hours (4 hours of travel, 8 hours if staying in the same place). The chance of an encounter per roll is 25%. We can modify this standard based on the plane. On Arborea, then, the standard is 1 encounter roll every 1 or 2 hours, with a chance of 50%. And the random chart for encounters would have to be much bigger. For my games, I use a different chart for each plane. For Arborea, I could create a base chart that references the different planes. So first I roll to see if I'm going to use an encounter chart from Arborea or from a different plane. More opportunity for encounters, more encounters, more variety, more experience. Never a dull moment when travelling the Feywild.

Regardless of how you handle encounters (random, semi-random, planned, story-based, whatever), I suggest increasing the number of encounters for Arborea. Make the passionate, energetic nature of the plane tangible for the players.

__________________

http://crossingtheverse.wordpress.com|Crossing the 'Verse -- A Planescape Conversion Project
http://zombierollerderby.wordpress.com|Zombie Roller Derby -- It's roller derby... and zombies... what more could you want?

Planescape, Dungeons & Dragons, their logos, Wizards of the Coast, and the Wizards of the Coast logo are ©2008, Wizards of the Coast, a subsidiary of Hasbro Inc. and used with permission.