Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

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Palomides's picture
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Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

I'll try a different tact on this one as I personally don't have any issues with this plane after some personal customization. So instead, I'll just say the more universal components of how I envisioned the plane. Collective opinion can use or shoot down the various pieces I will propose.
I won’t go into the physical layout of the plane; but please see the answer to some of my questions on that front (/forum/carceri-geography)

The concept of a “plane of imprisonment” caught my imagination and immediately made me think about one of my all time favorite shows, “The Prisoner” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prisoner). It may not be palatable to those with shorter attention spans but it blew my mind (caveat: as with any TV show, there are a few clunkers in the 17 episode run). It involves a spy who resigns and is then captured in “the Village” where his jailors try to extract secrets from the protagonist
To quote Wikipedia, “The series features striking and often surreal storylines, and themes include hypnosis, hallucinogenic drug experiences, identity theft, mind control, dream manipulation, and various forms of social indoctrination. A major theme of the show is individualism versus collectivism.”
Some of the major themes involved:
-continual surveilance;
-attempts to control people and break their wills;
-loss of identity (everyone in the series is assigned a number and never referred to by name);
-distrust of other inmates (as one never knows if the other person is really an inmate or a disguised guard);
-a stiffling, insincere civility and decorum that hides a sinister and viscious undercurrent;
-uncertainty of the identity of the jailor (refered to as #1 but the viewer and the protagonist never see him/her or learn #1’s identity) and what is the jailor’s unltimate goal (was it a hostile foreign government trying to learn secrets or was it the protagonist’s own government trying to learn the secrets of why he quit?)

While the protagonist of “The Prisoner” is definitely the hero; the same Kafka-esque themes could work just as well with ignoble beings.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

Repeating myself from a different post:
I know that a variety of different types of titans/primoridals/diposed elemental lords/etc. are imprisoned here; but for convenience, I will be refering to all of them as "titans".
In my campaign
I treated the beads as individual prison cells (one innermost sphere per titan). While I had the titan trapped within an innermost shell, his influence could still be felt through each surrounding sphere to lesser degrees. So if a titan of ice was trapped in the sixth layer, he could not visit the fifth layer, although he could still observe the happenings on that layer and create intense ice storms, etc. This continues all the way to the outermost layer/sphere where the titan could sometimes watch select individuals (it would take a conscious effort by the titan) and minor cold effects could be triggered

The whole arrangement (and the prisoner theme) made me think of the Panopticon prison structure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon) where a mysterious jailor may or may not be watching what an inmate does and may or may not be working to prevent it.
This leads to a rampant paranoia on the plane, when the titan’s plans for freedom are foiled; they suspect (but cannot prove) the hand of higher power manipulating things to keep them trapped. In turn, the titans act as similar vengeful and petty jailors over the petitioners within their concentric spheres of influence.
So each innermost sphere is a jail cell for a titan; and each layer is a jail cell for the petitioners. The petitioners can never be certain if the setbacks and betrayals they suffer are due to the free actions of his fellow inmates or whether his jailor (the titan) is manipulating things to make him suffer. Similarly, the titan is never certain if its own failed efforts to escape are due to incompetent underlings, rival titans taking counter-measures (as no titan wants another titan to escape before it does), or if it is due to some subtle manipulations from the “divine jailor” that no one is even sure exists.
Who can say if the adventuring party that arrived and undid decades of preparation were just bumbling fools who wandered in at the worst possible time, or if they were agents (or unknowning pawns) in a complex game of chess against an opponent that the titan will never see.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

For conflict within the plane (if the PCs aren’t ready to take on a titan directly), I had each bead (maybe not all but many of them) have a small groups of worshippers that remain loyal to their deposed masters. They either seek
1) ways to free their captive patron
2) ways to punish those who imprisoned him
3) to wage war against the cults of other neighboring titans
4) many members of the cults aren’t true believers; but since they can’t escape, they can’t stand up to the strength of the cults, and they don’t know whom to trust; they join for their individual safety as they bide time seeking for a way to escape

Here are some characteristics that I associate with the “inmates” of Carceri (titans and to a lesser extent, the petioners):
-they know they are trapped with only the rarest of hopes that they can escape
-they are tormented by the power and respect they once commanded but have now lost
-they are bitter
-they are torn between a sense of hopelessness and egomaniacal dreams of revenge (perhaps portrayed as bi-polar)
-they display a tendency to betray or use treachery
-because trust is non-existant and you never know who might be watching, paranoia is rampant
-the only way to survive in this place is to be more ruthless and more treacherous than the people who were around you.
-the titans act in a bi-polar way by promising their few followers incredible rewards once they are free; and later taking out their frustrations on these mortals in cruel vindictive ways (as this sort of vindictive attack is the only real entertainment available to the titan)

This results in a “trickle down” cruelty. Cabals will form within the cults of the titans in efforts to elevate the cabal members to higher positions of power (as only through alliances can they increase their power). But eventually, these alliances fall apart as individual members of the cabal betray each other to further their own advancement.
If the cult members serve the titan well, the cult members take the glory; but if they fail and earn the titan’s wrath, then each member will shift the blame on to other scapegoats (often former allies). While I don’t watch the show, I imagine it as a really dark episode of “Survivor”

Others on the plane may have seen the folly of such a lifestyle and now want to escape from the cults. But these people can’t escape on their own, and need to form alliances to escape. But the members are fearful to trust anyone as the cults often have loyal members act as dissenters seeking to escape in order to expose the real discontents. Sometimes, the cults even make these decoys look like visiting adventurers from outside the plane.
So often times, a cult member that truly does want to escape will turn and betray a person who was going to help. Why? Because the cult member misinterprets something the ally says or does, becomes convinced that the friend is a decoy, and decides that to save himself he needs to betray the friend/”decoy” before the “decoy” exposes him.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

For reasons for PCs to visit:
-the titans might have knowledge of things that were never made known to the current gods. Perhaps the PCs need to get this information. (And good luck if they were sent by Zeus to get the info and the titan finds out)
-maybe the cultists have stolen something that might free a dangerous titan. (Perhaps Prometheus warns the PCs as the stolen item was what allowed him to escape)
-PCs hear of a cult member that wants to escape. This leads to complications as if the PCs find the escapee, other cult members will beg to be taken too. But the more people the PCs try to save, the higher the chance that a mole will infiltrate (or a sincere person looses his nerve and betrays the group). What are the moral questions raised by telling an inmate that he isn’t allowed to come along?

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

General Themes:

There are three main themes here:

--Betrayal
--Bitterness
--Submission to one's primal lusts (particularly savage killing.) As such, we see the powers of evil lycanthropy here, such as Malar.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

I Carceri more as the plane of Bitter Spitefulness, the natives are that way, and the plane itself reflected in its environment is like that. It's spiteful, and wants entrap and harm others.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

I'm surprised at the relative silence on this post. Is everyone so dazzled by the brilliance of my ideas that they felt no further commentary was needed?
[Oh! that makes me laugh too]

Now to the one person who did respond

Kobold Avenger wrote:
I [see] Carceri more as the plane of Bitter Spitefulness, the natives are that way, and the plane itself reflected in its environment is like that. It's spiteful, and wants entrap and harm others.

My intended tone often doesn't come out correctly in printed form, so let me start out that I'm saying this to foster debate not to be condeming or insulting.

I'm not sure how "Bitter Spitefulness" would play out. Aside from everyone there being in a bad mood; what are the motivations/goals of the residents? What central idea are they battling to promote (or to overcome)?

While I may have focused too much on the theme of imprisonment (and the frustrated desire to escape), it did create a number of plot ideas for me. It also explained to me why the residents are bitter and likely to betray one another.

The phrase "Bitter Spitefulness" by itself doesn't conjure up much in my imagination. So can you elaborate where you would go with this?
Or would anyone else that is in this camp (or even a third camp) like to elaborate?

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

Appendum
Sorry Hyenna - since you don't have a personalized icon; I glossed over your comment thinking it was one of mine

My comments to KoboldA apply to you too; with the exception of the one added line
"--Submission to one's primal lusts (particularly savage killing.) As such, we see the powers of evil lycanthropy here, such as Malar."

This sparks a few ideas and it does mirror the opposing Beastlands attitude towards "the hunt".
How do you feel this ties into the trapped titans?

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

I think Carceri is pretty sweet as it is, with its concept and its unique geography (that I still haven't quite figured out).

The plane lacks a few subtle features to reach its true potential:
1. Like every other plane, higher (or lower) layers of the plane are much more abstract than the others, making only the first 2 3 layers interesting.
2. For a Prison Plane, it lacks prisoners. Not the treacherous, vengeful petitioners, who are of no use and interest to the rest of the planes, but the super powerful arch evils who are the prisoners of the plane as well as the wardens. We need more Demon Prince like charismatic figures for the plane, to make it interesting for the PCs. Which titans and other evils do we have here?
3. Revolutionary League. Now that they are exiled from Sigil, they are forced to live in this plane. This is the perfect drafting ground for them. A plane full of people whose greatest passion is to leave the plane and bring down those who condemned them there. Their treachorous nature also helps in becoming new Revolutionary infiltrators. I can see the revolutionaries, with access to a handful of portals in and out of the plane, are gaining power rapidly. This also draws the attention of Gehreleths and other powers of the plane, and they are the revolutionaries are making and breaking new alliances on a daily basis.
4. I believe that, given enough time, an elder evil can escape the prison plane. The reason why they are here, then, is they are afraid of going out. Probably, a long long time ago, they were faced with a choice: eternal imprisonment in Carceri, or immediate annihilation. If they leave the plane while their ancient nemesises live, they will be destroyed again. So they don't just want to prison break, they want to make a Grand Return. Hence they need adventurers to run errands for them outside. Kind of like a drug lord in prison. See 6.
5. Gehreleths don't seem to have drawn much attention, why is that? They are not a major fiendish race, but they are the only plane spanning organized force. Worse yet, they enjoy being in this hole. Only thing they enjoy more is tormenting other prisoners. I can see them very open to bribes, allowing PCs to "visit" prisoners, or even aid them, for a price. In general, they are the epitome of corrupt prison wardens. See: American shows.
6. I can see divinations to learn events outside the plane is possible, but communication or any kind of material involvement is not. This way the arch evils may surprise visitors with their knowledge of recent events while still needing them.
7. A large number of the petitioners and residents here believe they are condemned here unjustly, more so because they don't remember their past very well. Some of them may be actually right, after all this is the case even with modern prisons. Play this this to make players uneasy.
8. Which gods reside here, and to what extent are they prisoners?

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

Evil wrote:
1. Like every other plane, higher (or lower) layers of the plane are much more abstract than the others, making only the first 2 3 layers interesting.
Agreed. That seems to be a major recurring problem with these renovations. But until we hammer out the main theme(s) of the plane; I'm not going to comment on the layers

Evil wrote:
4. I believe that ... an elder evil can escape ...[but]they are afraid of going out. ...[T]hey want to make a Grand Return. Hence they need adventurers to run errands for them outside. Kind of like a drug lord in prison.
I like this twist. I was going towards something similar with my proposed cults to the titans and I think it would be a good way to involve the PCs - either to stop the titan's agents or to be unwittingly tricked into being pawns for the titan. (This may get a little close to the Machiavellian schemes of the baatezu/tanarii/yugoloth lords - so we might want some angle to make it unique)

I hadn't considered the option that the titans were able to break free but were instead "hiding" in their prison cells until they could guarantee their own safe return. I imagine that they are now VERY paranoid and want to guarentee that they can get their revenge and NEVER be deposed again. - This could tie back to the themes of betrayal as rival titans will probably see this as a threat to their own return to glory. So the titans end up being their own worst enemies and keep each other more effectively jailed than an overlord jailor god could.

Evil wrote:
5. Gehreleths don't seem to have drawn much attention, why is that? ... In general, they are the epitome of corrupt prison wardens.
I didn't get into this but I had envisioned the gehreleths as a physical manifestation of the rancor and ire that the trapped titans feel. But I like the characterization of them as corrupt or sadistic prison wardens and guards, I might have to make some changes. Also on this theme, does anyone think that Apomps had/has some ultimate goal for his creations?

Evil wrote:
7. A large number of the petitioners and residents here [incorrectly] believe they are condemned here unjustly... Some of them may be actually right, after all this is the case even with modern prisons. Play this this to make players uneasy.
I had a similar idea. I think that almost all the residents think their confinement is unfair (usually rationalizing that they were unjustly condemned by a bunch of "upstart godlings" - or other forces for non-divine residents). But while there are some good prisoners (divine, petitioner or mortal) that deserve to be set free; there are also a lot that deserve to be imprisoned but are eloquent and deceitful enough to make a vistor think they deserve to be set free. When the PCs hear accusations (true or false) against the person they were trying to help, will they carry on? Which is more devastating, knowing you set an evil soul free to wreck havoc or knowing that you let an innocent suffer? (And the DM could play this either way after the PCs make their decision - if the DM wants to make them suffer pangs of guilt)

I think the deposed Revolutionary League (and the non-offical sect, the Dispossessed) make a perfect fit on this plane. (And they could either be allies or enemies - perhaps the Dispossed fell from power due to the actions of the Anarchists.
http://www.mimir.net/sects/dispossessed.shtml

Jem
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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

Evil wrote:
7. A large number of the petitioners and residents here believe they are condemned here unjustly, more so because they don't remember their past very well. Some of them may be actually right, after all this is the case even with modern prisons. Play this this to make players uneasy.

Like you, I pretty much think Carceri has enough going on that it doesn't need a renovation. My group gamed there recently, on my turn to GM. Here are a few of the elements I added:

The Prison of the Innocents: Overseen by not-particularly-repentant but not-particularly-evil prisoner from Sigil from a few hundred years back -- an elf, sentenced here to life (an ascension attempt that messed with Sigil's underpinnings a little too much but not enough to get Mazed for). Life, for an elf, of course, is forever, unless he commits suicide. What he really wants, however, is to leave for whatever strange after-existence elves have when they get old, which he has. The Warden scries around Carceri for what he thinks are unjustly imprisoned innocents who are being corrupted by the plane's constant betrayals. He offers them an alternative: sleep under a trap the soul spell in a very well-defended labyrinth on an orb with virtually no traffic. Those who accept need no longer fear turning into Carceri's flavor of evil and staying here after death. Some stay in their gems for a previously-agreed finite amount of time, hoping to outlast their jailors; some ask to stay until a trigger condition is met; some simply retreat into their dreams and don't want to be awakened. The prison he has built is a quiet place, with gems lining niches along the walls, few interlopers, and, in deliberate repudiation of Carceri's influence, no betrayals.

Themis: Themis is a Titan, but Greek myth has it that she was allowed to remain after the Titanomachy. She embodied the natural moral order, including familial authority, as well as xenia, the laws of host and guest relations. Because of the former, I said that she felt obliged to go into exile with her siblings, since the head of her household was exiled. She could leave Carceri, but chooses not to; however, this does allow her to maintain a priesthood off-plane. She maintains her own palace complex atop a mountain on her own Othrys orb, with a small town at the foot of the mountain, and a small force of troops. (I never did figure out where her dedicated, typically very lawful petitioners would end up. Carceri seems an unpleasant thing to do to them. Perhaps Dike or Astraea lives on Olympus and takes them.) This can make her a source of support on Carceri if characters choose to seek her out, preferably if there are lawful members to the group. She will not act against her siblings or the Greek pantheon, including evil ones such as Hades or Hecate, and the rules in her demesne are strict. She requires compensation for her support, usually deeds off-plane where her influence is limited, and is especially willing to punish oathbreaking and violations of xenia severely.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

OK, maybe there wasn't as much of a demand for a renovation of Carceri as I thought there was from an earlier thread. Here are the few complaints to be address:

1) Aside from some cosmetic topography changes (swamp vs. desert, etc.) is there anything that differentiates the layers of this plane? (e.g. we renovated the layers of Arcadia to be one of armed conflict and one of peaceful residency)
With regards to the rest of the Outer Planes, we might want to change this to a (Planar) Layer Renovation Project as I don't think there are a lot of complaints with most aspects of the remaining planes, just some complaints with some unispired layers/regions within those planes

2) "Ooze syndrome" - when a location is especially deadly (or at least difficult to escape) but it doesn't provide any strong motivation for the PCs to visit.
I think the prospect (and complications) of freeing the falsely imprisoned might lead to some adventures, are there other suggestions?

3) An answer to what extent are the titans prisoners? Are they true prisoners unable to leave even if they wished to do so? Are they more appropriately "exiles" who remain here only because they currently lack the strength to securely reclaim the territories they once lost?

4) If we don't move the feral hunting gods (e.g Malar) that mirror the good hunters of the Beastlands, what is their position? Are they also prisoners? Do they roam freely across the prison-homes of the other titans? Do they reside on a single layer (perhaps on Cathrus) while the prisoners lie trapped in a deeper layer?

5) What is the role of the gehreleths? Did Apomps just create them to stand around Carceri lashing out at passer-bys? What motivates them? To what do they aspire? What master plan might Apomps have for them?

6) A list of "inmates" of this plane - while it isn't canon, I have fairly long list of captives (unfortunately on my PC at home) but I'll try to provide it as soon as I can.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

Well Palomides, I like the idea of elder evils residing in the innermost orb of each layer. The question in my mind is whether if they are physically imprisonned, under miles thick ice, or just kind of existing over that orb, but unable to leave for various reasons. I'll pose two answers for discussion:
1. Titans came Carceri after the orbs/layers were created. They live in various realm/cage/fortresses on various layers and orbs. As far as I know, this is canon. What I would like to expand on this is... There are *things* buried under the ice of the orbs of the 6th layer that were there before the plane itself was populated with others. Perhaps the plane was literally "built" over their frozen cages. Titans and others just came around much later and had to settle on the surface of the plane.
2. The innermost orbs are just normal orbs, they are just the hardest place to get in and out, so it is enough for residents to live on the surface. They are not going anywhere soon.

Now I will start answering you questions in order:

1. My answer to your first question: We can say that each layer holds a certain kind of traitor. But I am not certain I want to go this way; because keeping people convicted from all kinds of different crimes together is a part of prison system. It is actually the foundation on which the prison hierarchy/order is built upon. I'm sure not all prisons are like this, but this is what I would like to see happen on this plane.
- So, in the vein of the cults you were talking about, each different kind of carceri inmate (a petitioner) somehow finds a position on the plane representing their old position. If we say that traitors of different kinds are together, than why are there so many layers? They have to serve a purpose right?
- Here's my idea: The characters in Carceri always want to leave. To this end, they steal, lie, murder, cheat, intimidate... in short does whatever it takes. But they can't leave. Their bitterness grows with their evil. I say, as its evil grow, it doesn' leave the plane, but actually moves lower. (A resemblance I like seeing on some planes. Like we did in Arcadia, we kind of did in Acheron, and is already apparent in Celestia. Some planes call for higher attunement through traveling the layers until the petitioner reaches the core layer) Of course, the lower a body sinks, the more angry and bitter it gets. Finally ofcourse it cannot leave the plane, but gets merged with it: the ultimate imprisonment.

2. this is a serious problem, but also one that I don't get how solved with Baator and Abyss either. They don't have any positive aspects but for some reasons they draw a lot of attention - they get their own books for gods sakes. I think this is not a problem with finding a reason, but rather finding a figure, a charm, a brand for the plane, like the baatezu and their cool arch dukes, and abyss and its tanarri and Demogorgon. They are interesting because they have cool people that make it interesting, and the characters may want to risk death to get a taste of the action everyone is talking about.
-My solution, as I proposed earlier, was that we add some cool dudes to plane. Make the gehreleth more interesting, add some more titans and super powerful creatures etc. I will try to address this later.

3. I already gave my opinion on this. Titans should be preparing to make a grand return and for this end trying to gather petitioner-believers from the plane, or outside (through the use of adventurers, showing the secret exits that they know but won't use, and temporary alliances with the revolutionaries). I think that elder titans are the original convicts, (also, see the Epic Handbook entry) also, other "younger" titans (those in the Monster Manual entry) are also active in the plane, but they are unable to leave unless they get permission from their elders. as for other great imprisonned evils, I can't make an assumption because I don't know of any other imprisonned powerful beings.

4. I don't know about these evil hunter powers and can't make a suggestion.

5. I will again pose two possible answers for discussion. These are in line with the "innermost orb cell" approach I proposed at the beginning of my post.
a) Gehreleths are are working to keep the "old things" imprisonned in the 6th layer from waking up and taking over the control of the plane from them and Apomps. Their other responsibilities of the plane is just for show, and because they have a lot of free time and enjoy tormenting others. While this answers what the gehreleths are doing at the moment, it doesn't give an insight for Apomps' further agenda. Also, I don't know about Apomps' past, but I would say that it is very closely related with the frozen inmates of the 6th layer.
b) Gehreleths are working to awaken the "frozen ones". This is their true purpose and their final plan to conquer the planes. I'll go further and say that Apomps was, at one point, one of the buried ones and somehow it managed to get free, and now is working to free the others. Of course, he doesn't rush things, because any one of those things might be more than he can handle. He prepares to makes sure that he can control the things below, so when they wake up they will follow Apomps' orders. This makes Apomps a super powerful elder evil, which is fine and fitting. He isn't necessarily of the same race with the other buried inmates, but he feels that he can use them.

6. I don't have a list, but I will go with what I would see and why:
- A few deities concerned with prisons, prisoners etc, for obvious puroses.
- Titans, obviously. Lots of them on different orbs, generally the most powerful ones on the lower layers, and lesser (younger, descendant) titans on the upper layers. I would also see them not liking each other a lot, older titans accuse each other of having a part in losing the war against Olympians. Younger titans accuse their ancestors for losing the war and being cowards and hiding in a prison plane. Worse yet they know if they are ever going to make a come back, it will be together, but with millenia of conflict in Carceri, there is great mistrust. Titans have super fortresses on their own orbs. They claim ownership of their orbs and don't take no sh*t from gehreleths.
- Apomps, I think if he is indeed freed from the frozen 6th layer orb, the ultimate prison cell, he will try to keep it a secret and try to assume a lower profile, like a lesser deity. I think its a facade and Apomps is biding its time until it can make its own comeback. I'm open to suggestions about Apomps' tru identity.
- I think that at least some of the frozen orbs of the 6th contain beings from Far Realm. Why? First, because it seems that it is popular nowadays and we want to make this plane popular. Second, it is in line with what I suggest, saying these things are super old. Let's say that the orbs in which Far Realmers are kept contain a lot of fissures to Far Realm, and are partly contaminated. Apomps' involvement and connection with these beings is unknown. See 5a.
- One or two good gods/creatures. Because this is an evil plane after all, it should do evil things to good people. Increases potential good epic level gaming. Also ties in with 5a, above.
- Queen of Chaos and Miska the Wolf-Spider? Did they die or what?

Kobold Avenger's picture
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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

Palomides wrote:
"--Submission to one's primal lusts (particularly savage killing.) As such, we see the powers of evil lycanthropy here, such as Malar."
Submission to One's Primal Lusts is the Abyss. The Abyss is pure rage and to some extent all of the seven sins manifested out in the open. But rage and primals lusts are the most prevalent in the Abyss, as opposed to Carceri.

With Carceri things are more underneath the surface. You could say it's vengeance as one of the themes, but that implies something too out there in the open like the Abyss. Carceri is more about such things seething and lurking just beneath the surface, buried under many layers. The man is there on Carceri, it's the beast the lurks there under the man's skin. Distaste and spite are what there, as Carceri is more rather the intent than the actual manifestation.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

I have to go to work in a bit, but here are the themes of the petitioners and environments of Carceri, by layer. Maybe this will help to spark something:

Orthys (Swamps) - Politicians, traitors to their countries and those who lied to gain power
Cathrys (Jungles) - People responded to their animal instincts when they didn't have to
Minethys (Cold Deserts) - The greedy and those who hoarded when they didn't need to
Colothys (Mountains) - Those who would lie and cheat, when the truth was just as convienent
Porphatys (Black Snow and Oceans) - Shallow and self absorbed, as well as those who denied aid when it was within their power to provide it
Agathys (Ice) - Those who gave false friendship

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

OK, this is DEFINITELY not canon; but here is a list of "inmates" that I have. Some are from official sources but a lot are stolen form others, are from speculation and flights of fantasy. Since I can't remember which is which, I'll just present them as a group. Feel free to add to it:

-Apomps the Three-Sided: a vile being that created the gehreleths

-Atlas: titan of applied strength. He was cursed to forever hold the weight of his prison upon his own back.

-Atropus: undead primordial that looks like a colossus fetus. It feels that all of creation was a mistake and seeks to obliterate all existence before it ever began
Eons ago, the dead rose from their tombs and necromancers were granted unbelievable might. The following is a scenario if this primordial stirs:
Infused with the increased necromatic energies, Orcus dispatches his legions, led by the bodak, Gorguth, to invade the realm of Demogorgon. The Abyss soon turns into a warzone as other demon lords and princes begin to attack their foes. The Dukes of Hell seeing this as a major weakness to the demons invades the Abyss. With this massive interplanar war in the Lower Planes going on, Gorguth defects from Orcus' service and turns to Atropus to become his proxy. The undead now outnumber those who live. Gorguth's army grows more vaster with each day.

-Baelzra, Chain Princess of Jangling Hiter: an exiled archdevil and who is, in contrast to her parents, raven-haired and almost too beautiful -- in body, anyway. She is now a chained up captive in Carceri due to some scheme she attempted against Asmodeus

-Balcoth, the Groaning King: this force of decay survives despite being decapitated. His prison realm is filled with ash and cinder

-Bazim-Gorag, Lord of the Pandemonium Stone: a being of pure chaos that is said to have created an amphibious race that may have become the slaad

-Byrakus, Father of Monstrosities: a being that spawned most monstrosities. It is said that when he was captured, his spilt blood created the first hydras

-Cailleach Bheur: a blue-faced hag that brought the freezing blight of winter. She was deposed by the Celtic goddess Brigit. Cailleach Bheur was suseptable to the charms of handsome men. She may be the proginator of all species of hags.

-Castanamir, the Shattered Khan: the “youngest” of the captives, this being united many of the clans of the Inner Planes in an attempt to reclaim elemental power from various Outer Planar deities that the later had gained it when they defeated the primordials
(e.g. take back the lightning from Zeus)

-Coeus, Titan of Inquisitiveness: visitors are sometimes dissected to a molecular level to satisfy his curiosity. Fortunately, he can be easily distracted if the visitor brings a puzzle or complex item (e.g. an automaton). He is also the titan of fickle weather and storms are common in his realm

-Cobweb: the real name of this deity is lost but some speculate that this spider god of paranoia is a banished or usurped associate of Lloth.

-Crius: a whimsically cruel titan that has complete control over weight and gravity. He can make any object too heavy to lift and is thus immune to all missile weapons

-Cronos: the titan of time in its aspect as the force that ultimately destroys all. Clerics of Cronus belong to a weird, ancient, harsh sect. They preach on the briefness and meaninglessness of all things.
Of possible interest to the Doomguard

-Denar the Night Serpent: gigantic shadowy serpent that lives off of fear from the fiendish nightmares it creates. Some scholars suggest that this being might be one and the same with (or at least the head of) the Midgard Serpent that will serve a prominent role in Ragnarok

-Diinkarazan: paranoid derro god tormented by illusions of the things he most fears (flayers and betrayal by his sister).

-Faluzure the Night Dragon: a titanic beast that is so debased that it is now too fat for its wings to support him

-Furnival: evil god of immense power that is trapped in the form of a child-like avatar. It “thinks” it has limited power. If one speaks with him, he will mention all the future glories that will one day be his (actually memories of past glories) once he “grows up”. He been brainwashed to think he is unable to escape. Cultists are seeking entrance to his realm in order to educate him of his true nature

-Girzon: a titan with dominion over death who can take the life from any living being. While he has become sadistic, it should be noted that Girzon can never used this ability unless commanded to by a deity. For this reason, the titan will continually demonstrate his power to kill the things in his realm and will threaten visitors with agonizing death on his whim; but he cannot actually carry out these threats on visitors. Be forewarned, this does not prohibit the titan from inflicting pain on a visitor or having one of his minions kill the visitor. He resides within the Necromanteion

-Grolantor: hill giant god who is willfully stupid and believes that any problem can be solved with enough brute force

-Heur-Ket: primordial associated with savage winds and sowing discord

-Hyperion: titan of the uncaring sky, once the primordial of air

-Iapetus: titan of war and slaughter; father of Prometheus, Epimetheus and Atlas

-Iktha-Lau: a primordial of life-absorbing cold

-Imix, the Fire Lord, the Burning Mountain: Elemental Prince of Flames who while still imprisoned is still worshipped by several goblin tribes

-Kesef the Chaos Hound: devourer of gods and primordials alike. Some claim that this being is the Fernis Wolf of Norse mythology

-Ma Yuan: the killer of the gods. He killed ten beings that called themselves gods in the Chinese pantheon before being imprisoned in Carceri.

-Malar: a banished god dedicated to brutal hunting where the prey suffers horribly

-Malephus: a titan with influence over law and justice who can unerringly detect any spoken lie and any bad intention. He is often used by many greater powers in trials of justice. Malephus, while brutal, is totally honest; he is incapable of lies or deception.

-Mane: a titan with dominion over felines who has the ability to change into a giant form of any cat. When he transforms, he is instantly cured of all wounds, poisons, and diseases. Mane may change into a cat and back again five times per day.

-Menoetius: titan of vain (raw) strength. He was imprisoned for being insolent to Zeus

-Mnemosyne: titaness of memory. A tyrannical prime once said that controlling the past was the key to controlling the future.
It is thought that Mnemosyne's palace was, and still is made from polished silver carved into an array of faceted pillars and domes. One can almost see it, each reflection a piece of your mind. However, what each being sees is instead a dwelling from their memory: a childhood home, a prison sworn to never be revisited, or even the dwelling of another titan visited moments before. The image is hazy, a mirage draped over the true dwelling, but it confuses the mind well enough. Members of a group may find themselves drawn into the memory of the person most emotional from what is seen, the passion imposing its structure on their surroundings. This can be pleasant or horrible, but the taint of red in the sky or walls allows one to remain aware of their true location. Entering the palace (or whatever structure you see) will open an assault on the senses as the past floods into the present. Though an Anarch will intuitively grasp the secret, any visitor should be able to impose a scene of a particular time behind Now. This allows one to walk through history, though one's subconscious will adulterate this with one's own memories. This is the danger of the realm, for history and memory are two interlocking streams, where the latter often distorts the former's truth. This is Mnemosyne's secret weapon, or perhaps her charge. The titan often greets visitors while clothed in a figure from memory, leaving clever hints or riddles to aid and distract all at once. It has been said that at times she drops pretenses and reveals herself--a woman of yellowed yet healthy skin, the scripts of a thousand forgotten civilizations writing lost histories upon her body like papyrus. Do not think that entering the palace is a sure means of discovering the secrets of powers angelic and infernal, however. The truth that one experiences is difficult to determine, and there have been reports that sometimes the truth is too strong, too *aware* when one seeks knowledge of the darklords. As such, pay no mind to the corpses one finds littered through this place. After all, the characters out of memory don't.

-Morpheus: the titan of dreams. Mutable as dreams are, visitors have described the realm as a massive graveyard filled with undead children as well as an orchard where columns of light represent the sum total of the multiverse's love. However, the home of the god himself remains fairly constant. A cavern from which issues a soft glow of shifting colors, surrounded by a wall made of swirling ether. Those who attempt to pass through are sent into random dreamscapes or on the other side of the Wall of Color, though they might spend months wandering through the ethereal wall before facing this disappointment. Fortunately there are two gates placed side by side that lead into the cavern, though they are not always present. One is seemingly formed from two bull horns twisting together, the other carved from ivory ironically depicting images of prophetic dreams that have shaped the multiverse in times past. The walls, ceiling, and floor of this cave are formed from crystal. Within the crystals are reflections of the myriad dreamscapes, which are seen as glowing white motes within what seems to be amethyst. As one goes deeper into the cavern, one will meet various shamans, astral travelers, wizards, and even disguised gods coming to trade in dreamstuff. In the cavern's heart lies the City of Dreams. A great city was formed from the crystal where the ceiling is highest, a massive cave dwelling where beings from the other side of dreams can visit our multiverse. Morpheus has collected riches from across the multiverse, given in return for an assortment of favors the god has performed over the millennia. The various players of the Cosmic Game seek the aid of the Sleep Bringer, for his magic can induce a moment of slumber in even some Greater Powers. This has also led Morpheus to be distrusted, for while the power is amicable enough, even to mortal visitors, one wonders about his true agenda. The peace is kept by the nightmarish bats that hang from the stalactites. It is said these are Morpheus's lesser siblings, the Oneiroi--dreambringers. Supposedly those who bring prophetic or insightful dreams pass through the gates of horn, and the rest through gates of ivory. Yet it has been noted that a bat will fly through one gate, then circle through the other before flying out of the cavern. Mortals will find nourishment and rest so long as they do not seek to harm the power or his servants. Those foolish enough to do so slumber in his cellar for eternity.

-Mual-Tar, the Thunder Spirit: An ancient primordial chained by Moradin, Pelor, and Bahamut. One of its five chains has already broken. Will the others continue to hold it fast? Five cults exist who revere the Thunder Serpent and seek to break those remaining chains but there the similarities between the groups ends.

-Nekal of the Glowing Deep, the Crushing Wave: Primordial associated with the deep oceans and the secrets and power they contain

-Ogremoch, the Elemental Prince of Evil Earth: an archomental. A rocky tyrant that stands 60-feet tall. It was under his tyrannical rule that the dao developed their love of enslaving other races

-Okeanos: titan of primeval seas that has influence over the seas, has the ability to create water whenever he chooses to. This water can be vast as he desires, up to the volume of a medium-sized lake. Okeanos can simply cause the water to flow, he can cause it to jet out from his hands (washing away everything in its path away), or he can even cause the water to be frozen

-Onegas: a former lich who is now a bizarre fusion of undead and machine. Onegas refuses to admit that he has been captured and instead deludes himself into believing that this is his fortress from which he will one day lead his unstoppable armies. Within this sphere, he rules his "cyber" zombies and plots the conquest of all things. His fortress is of the high technological sort, far more advanced than almost anything on the Planes.

-Parrafaire: a demipower of tricks and traps that is now so self-absorbed that she has created a puzzle-prison from which even she can’t escape.

-Porphyl: a titan with the power of growth. He may cause any immature life to grow to maturity. Thus, he can cause crops to grow, he can make a boy grow to manhood, etc. Porphyl is very wise and would never abuse his ability. He is one of the few titans that is not yet insane

-Prometheus: this titan originally sided with Zeus in the Titan Wars and was initially spared imprisonment. However, he was later chained to a rock to be the perpetual meal for vultures after he gave the gift of fire to man. If a visitor will temporarily relive his torment by driving away the monstrous vultures, he will impart information to the visitor
In my campaign, he was already freed and living in Bytopia; but one could still visit his shattered sphere in Carceri

-Ragnorra: The Mother of Monsters, is a eternally corrupted, primeval source of life (she controlled the Positive Energy Plane). Some speculate that she cannot be killed being as she is so infused with positive energy (although she feels starved since she is not directly connected to that plane anymore). Bloated, hideous, and filled with a terrible love for her children, this elder evil wanders the planes searching for new worlds to make in her image.
The Mother of Monsters, Ragnorra plagued the early worlds with her brood. The gods cast the awful thing into the space between the planes. Her proxies are intelligent undead made of a corrupt form of positive energy.

-Raiden: once presided over the Palace of Thunders-

Syllia: a titan with power over lust and primal passion

-Tharizdun, the Eater of Worlds, the Chained God: the most powerful of the imprisoned primordials. Tharizdun is said to be the creator of the original Elemental Chaos and to be the instigator of the Cult of Elemental Evil

-Thea: the titan of sight and wealth. Within the lapidary walls of her temple, precious metals and gems are gathered, guarded by magic rays both visible and invisible. The effects of the rays are varied: Some duplicate known spells, some show a destined death, some give sight into horrors hidden mercifully from most eyes. However, Thea has become preoccupied recently with some future event her prescience has shown her. This has allowed the more adventurous planar rogues to sneak off with a gem or two. While one may expect such rogues to be afforded respect among their fellows, such regard is given at a distance. After all, what mortal can hope to hide where the Titan of Sight cannot scry him out? More importantly, what future event does Thea see? She has spoken of it to no one save for her vizier, a parai possessing no mouth. Exiled for its imperfection, the otherwise beautiful creature found its way to Thea and entered her service. The two expatriates are close companions, though while the parai clearly desires to return to Mechanus Thea waits patiently for the moment she knows will come. Whenever that is.

-Themis: titaness of law and sacred vows. Since siding with the wrong faction in the wars of Olympus (due to a promise she made), she has gone mad. She has become obsessed with excessive obedience to her rules (even though in her madness she creates rules that contradict each other). Visitors to her realm are often subjected to a nightmarish mockery of a courtroom trial.

-Tiphal, the Cutting Blade: a primordial of intense law that willingly (but grudgingly) accepted being imprisoned after he violated a law that the other gods created in order to limit his unbending dogma

-Trias the Betrayer: a deva who remains chained in Carceri. He tricked a devil (hence the epitaph) into a pact that states that as long as Trias remains imprisoned in Carceri, the devil and his minions cannot harm any innocentvbeings-Ubtao the Deceiver: a cruelly playful soul that was imprisoned to prevent him from undoing the other gods’ works of creation in his attempts to amuse himself

-The Worm that Walks: a shifting mass of worms imprinted with the psyche of the demigod, Kyuss. He wishes to break free and bring about the final age of humanity, the Age of Worms. For this to happen, his few remaining followers must find a way to break the demigod’s mind from his prison of flesh.

-Primordials of immense elemental power. Unsuccessfully fought off the current pantheons. Tied to the Cults of Elemental Evil
-To create other types of titans, think of elemental forces of nature (e.g. magnetism, gravity (Crius)) or abstract ideas (e,g, reflection, disorientation, distraction/procrastination, torture/sadism). Other ideas include: avalanches, volcanoes (titan kept dead by constant maggot infestation as he hangs above a volcano and the maggots drop into the lava), mental pain (hangovers), confusion, the Unknown, sickness, fungus, cannibalism, pain (the Mausoleum of Pain), ownership and theft

Possible Sect
-The Brotherhood of the Spheres (the Leeches): a group greedily seeking to siphon power off of trapped gods/primordials. Most scholars dispute if this can actually be done and what the consequences would be if possible. They try to keep their activities secret but they rationalize it as a means of keeping the imprisoned beings weak. They are often attacked by the cults and gerhelths

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

That list is fantastic Palomides! I think the inclusion of those sorts of Titans/Powers/Whatever at the heart of each of the spheres of Carceri is an absolutely great idea. I mean, we can putter around defining the specifics of each layer or whatnot, but the idea that each orb is a specialized prison makes it just sing for me.

I feel like the environments of each orb should somehow reflect the nature of the entity contained within. I mean, the overall environment can stay the same between the orbs, but the specific environment encountered should echo the entity contained. Maybe also have the punishment of the petitioners on each orb likewise echo the nature of the contained entity. Say, on the Prometheus, have all the petitioners be chained up and be experiencing a similar sort of punishment.

Beyond that, I liked the thematic idea of the orbs being connected with chains. It just reinforces the idea that Carceri is a prison plane.

Also, I'd like to point out that Carceri is potentially one of the major battleground planes for the Blood War. I think it might be interesting to have some broken and vacant orbs serve as staging grounds or battlefields for various armies. Maybe portals appear with a greater frequency on the vacant spheres, but good luck sneaking past the army of devils or demons that's been making use of them.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

I've been toying around with trying to tie the idea of vestiges and binders from the 3.x Tome of Magic to those entities imprisoned in the orbs of Carceri. It fits in with the idea of binders being hunted by various religious types - the gods went to great pains to trap the vestiges and deny them their freedom, and binders give them an opportunity to experience the world outside of their prison. Binders are described as sort of playing with fire by doing what they do. I wouldn't turn all of the vestiges into prisoners of Carceri of course, but a number of them work quite well as prisoners. Anyway, just wanted to capture this idea before it slips away.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

Wicke wrote:
I've been toying around with trying to tie the idea of vestiges and binders from the 3.x Tome of Magic to those entities imprisoned in the orbs of Carceri. It fits in with the idea of binders being hunted by various religious types - the gods went to great pains to trap the vestiges and deny them their freedom, and binders give them an opportunity to experience the world outside of their prison. Binders are described as sort of playing with fire by doing what they do. I wouldn't turn all of the vestiges into prisoners of Carceri of course, but a number of them work quite well as prisoners. Anyway, just wanted to capture this idea before it slips away.

Not sure I like this. The vestiges were always described as being "outside" reality, not really anywhere in the multiverse, but still clinging a sort of tenuous half-existence. Putting them in Carceri, or anywhere else, makes them much too physical and reduces the otherworldly tone, to my thinking.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

Cronus - King of the Universe, CE

From his throne atop Mount Othrys in Carceri, Cronus oversees his crumbling domain. Once he ruled the titans and laid claim to all of the lands watered by the River Oceanus, from Elysium to Arborea. He even conquered the Pelasgian pantheon, led by the goddess Eurynome, and seized her realms and worshippers for himself.

Those days are gone. He was betrayed by his own wife, Rhea, and his own children, the Olympian gods. Even some of the titans rose up against him, and old betrayals of his own came back to haunt him. The hecatoncheires, who he had once promised to free from Tartarus, helped banish him to that plane. His youngest son led them to victory against him, as he, youngest son of his own father, the sky god Uranus, had once led his siblings to victory in castrating the sky. Now he rules only the bowels of Carceri, his plans for escape crumbling beneath him like the walls of his own marble palace.

Oceanus - Oceans, CE

One of the eldest of titans, Oceanus was the personification of the celestial river that bears his name.

Note that it's possible that Oceanus only stole the River Oceanus from older gods like Pontus, after the titans stole the universe from the previous generation of deities - Uranus, Pontus, and Ourea. Who, in turn, stole the universe from Nyx, Erebus, Tartarus, Eros, and Gaea. Who, in turn, stole the universe from Chaos.

In any case, Oceanus was cast into Tartarus after he sided with Cronus in the Titanomachy, the Clash of the Titans where they warred against the Olympian gods, and since that time the Oceanus has been under the care of celestial beings like balaenas, guardinals and eladrins. His daughter Styx was soon cast after him.

Now Oceanus stews in the freezing seas of Porphatys, endlessly plotting his revenge. Due to the nature of Carceri, his schemes always betray themselves in a terrible circle, like Oceanus' own circular flow.

Ceos - the Mind, CE

Titan of the mind and the night, Ceos is a powerful psionicist and a master of nightmares. Nightmare steeds gallop through his domain, night hags make pilgrimages to it in order to learn his secrets, and he is served by quori and drifters from the Plane of Dream. He is wedded to Phoebe, the terrifying titan of the moon.

Iapetus - Rage, CE

The furious titan of unthinking anger, Iapetus is the father of the titans Atlas, Menoetius, Prometheus, and Epimetheus. Of these, only Prometheus lacks the impetuous nature of their father; this is because he is also the son of Iapetus' sister Themis. The others are descended from Iapetus' equally unthinking daughter Clymene. Clymene now dwells unhappily in Iapetus' palace, while Themis gains some satisfaction from her role as judge of the dead.

Crius - Gravity, CE

Crius, Titan of Gravity, dwells on an orb in Colothys with constantly changing and shifting gravity tides. Objects and beings can quickly grow as light as a single hair to as heavy as a mountain; the gravity tides can pull them toward Crius' orb or push them away, toward a specific target.

Crius is the father, with his half-sister Eurybia, of the titans Perses, Pallas, and Astraeus.

Tethys - the Sea, N

Consort of Oceanus, foster-mother of Hera. Mother of the Oceanids, the River Styx, the River Cocytus, the River Acheron, the River Lethe, Amphitrite, and Doris (mother of the Neriads).

As mother of both Cocytus and Styx, Tethys commands a tremendous amount of respect in Carceri and the lower planes in general. Hydroloths, marraenaloths, wastriliths and other fiends view her with a reverence that approaches worship.

Hera, of the Olympians, views her as more of a mother than her real mother, Rhea. She seldom visits, but she sometimes uses a visit with Tethys as an excuse to leave Olympus and get away from Zeus for a time. This is regardless of whether she actually goes to see Tethys.

Hyperion - the Sun, CE

Hyperion is the husband of his sister Theia, and the father of Helius, Eos, and Selene (who is possibly the same as the goddess Selune of Toril and Celene of Oerth).

His orb in Carceri and and his palace on Mount Othrys burn with the heat and light of a giant red star.

Theia - Sorcery, NE

Theia, also known as Euryphaëssa and Basileia, is the titaness of sorcery. Her orb shines with blinding eldritch light. She taught magic to her children, Helius (who taught magic to his daughter Circe), Eos, Selene (who, as Selune, taught magic to her daughter Mystra), and her children by Oceanus, the master thieves known as the Cercopes. Hecate went to her as part of her wanderings, later continuing her tutelage under Ceos and Nyx. Theia is said to have taught the Incantifers the magic that allowed them to make themselves more than human. Beings from across the planes continue to petition the titaness to teach them; most are killed or transformed for their arrogance.

Themis - Justice, LN

The titaness of perfect justice, She was briefly married to Iapetus. After the banishment of the other titans, she became the second wife of Zeus (Zeus later divorced her and married Hera). With Iapetus, she is the mother of Prometheus and Clymene (who Iapetus left Themis for; she is the mother of Epimetheus, Atlas, and Monoetius), With Zeus, Themis is the mother of Astraea (goddess of Justice), the Seasons and some say (incorrectly) the Fates.

Themis created the Oracle at Delphi, which was later taken from her by Apollo. Since then, Themis spends most of her time in the Underworld in Pluton, where she and her proxies Aeacus, Rhadamanthys, and Minos judge the dead.

Mnemosyne - Memory, N

Mnemosyne is the titaness of memory. The Romans worship her as Moneta, goddess of finance. With Zeus, Mnemosyne is the mother of the Muses.

Mnemosyne dwells with her daughters in Arborea. She has an infinite palace in which every brick is inscribed with a glyph representing a memory. Deciphering a single glyph requires an intelligence check at DC 45, and then a will save at the same DC to avoid becoming overcome by the intensity of the memories. In Mount Othrys in Carceri there is a similar palace, but it has decayed so much that none of the glyphs are legible.

"You live in a deranged age, more deranged that usual, because in spite of great scientific and technological advances, Man has not the faintest idea of who he is or what he is doing." - Walker Percy

Most don't remember her twin sisters. They've faded into Mystery, their faces blank, reflective, veiled in shadow. Her daughters, the Nine, have taken the place of the earlier Triad. The original generation has become lost, banished, overwritten, a mere palimpset.

Yet Memory knows them, and keeps them within her house still.

Mnemosyne
Titan of Memory, N

While her daughters the Muses live in Mount Olympus with Apollo, Mnemosyne resides forgotten within the House of Memory. With memories her only companions, she has lost touch with everything new. And, enraptured by the new creations inspired by her daughters, the rest of the multiverse has lost touch with Mnemosyne. The result - a fading of memory, a loss of past, of the roots of things, has been at times catastrophic.

The schism between memories and new things is a traumatic wound, but also a very old one. The blood has long since dried, the scars turned white and pale. Even the injury itself has been long since forgotten.

Mnemosyne strides restlessly through Memory's halls, a pale, furtive figure in dark robes looking for something she can no longer define. There is only one room where she dare not enter; the room of Melete, her most terrifying twin.

Her sister Aoede, on the other hand, she visits often, though Aoede never speaks except to sing her single wordless song.

Aoede
Titan of Song, CN


"...and stars rise
upon phantom tides unknown
this night sings,
'nothing is all you'll know'

...and stars rise" - fredrickartman ("translation" of The Nothing Song by Sigur Ros).

In an unlit hall in the House of Memory lies Aoede, Titan of Song. Her dark body stretches like a cat. The smell of her unwashed body is pungent, filling the hall and adjoining chambers. There is all around her a wind, and the sensation of tiny fluttering wings. There is a sound, like the waves of a distant sea crashing on an unseen shore on a hot, stifling day.

In your mind you hear a melody; you remember hearing it when you were born. There are no words, no rhythm, no pattern. There is only song.

It fills the planes.

Sailors have killed themselves on rocks trying to find the source of this song. Musicians have gone mad from hearing a few notes of it. Bards seek it their entire lives, but must be careful they do not look too deeply or they could drown in Aoede's hot, lightless sea.

The Titaness does not move from her place on the floor of the hall in the House of Memory. Her song does not change. Like her sister Memory, Aoede can no longer create anything new; not until they are willing to face their terrible sister Melete.

Melete
Titan of Practice, Meditation, and Discipline, LN

"A fanatic is one who redoubles his effort when he has forgotten his aim." - George Santayana

Melete is Practice, Repetition, Meditation, and Meter. When she held her place in the cosmic trinity of the first Muses she was the structure upon which all Poetry was built. She was the rhythm of myth, memory, and song that defined the Outer Planes in that older, simpler age. She was the effort, the struggle, the heroic battle that all true Poets wrestled with, until scratched and bloody and scarred they emerged from their combat with Melete, a glowing treasure in their hearts and tongues.

Melete, too, bears scars from those battles, long white lines cutting her face and hands - all of her exposed skin - into regular units, relics from the age when Melete fought her sisters, all artists, the entire multiverse with her dripping claws.

Now she sits still in her darkened corner of the House of Memory, her ruined hands folded and her eyes shut, her blank face slack. Only her brow is furrowed as she concentrates on something, putting her Titanic effort into defining the structure of... what? Perhaps nothing more than the cages of her own self-created prison. Mortals who have ventured too near have been caught too, snared by the endless loop of discipline with all objectives long since vanished from her mind. If one of her twins were to reach her, touch her, perhaps something new could be made, but no; she has grown too feral for them to approach. They no longer consider Melete to be worth the effort, and so they sit within Memory, barren as she is, barren as they all have become.

Phoebe - the Moon, CE

Phoebe's orb in Carceri glows with a cold silver light. She is the wife of Ceos, the Titan of Fear, and much of her husband's nature is transferred to Phoebe's terrifying lunar realm, which is populated with lycanthropes and spirits of madness and terror.

With Ceos, Phoebe is the mother of Leto (mother of Apollo and Artemis), and Asteria (mother of Hecate).

Leto - Light, CG

Mother of Apollo and Artemis, called Latona by the Romans and Lat by the Egyptians. Identified with the cobra goddess Wadjet. Wadjet helped Isis hide in the floating island of Chemmis, which might have been the same as Asteria/Ortygia. She is associated with the quail, who some say Zeus disguised her as.

Leto is a vengeful and terrible being when she is insulted. She is much like the Olympians in this respect.

Phorcys and Ceto - Abominations, CE

Phorcys is known as the Old Man of the Sea. Ceto is a horrible-looking sea monster, not remotely humanoid. Children of Pontus and Gaea, they sided with their half-siblings the Titans in their war with the gods, and were banished along with them. With his sister Ceto, Phorcys is the father of the serpent Ladon, and according to some also the Gorgons, the Graiae, and the monster Echidna. His orb in Porphatys, which he shares with Ceto, is haunted by medusas, hags of all kinds, ha-nagas, hagumemnons, odopi, vargouilles, lamiae, hydras, chimerae, harpies, and shrieking terrors.

Phorcys and Ceto have sent some of their daughters as gifts to Perses, where they encourage him to do their parents' will.

Atlas - Endurance, CE

A son of Iapetus and Clymene, Atlas personifies the lasting strength of the primal universe. The Olympians banished him to Mount Atlas in Arborea, where he carries the sky on his shoulders. His daughters, the Hesperides, guard the apples of immortality.

Prometheus - Forethought, CG

Prometheus is the titan of foresight and progress; with his brother Epimetheus, he created humanity from clay, or so it is said, back in the Golden Age when Cronus ruled.

During the Golden Age there was no strife or war; there was also no change. The beautiful immortals that were Golden Age humanity lived their endless lives as if asleep, every perfect summer day the same as the last.

Prometheus was born backwards, in a sense, always looking forward, the future shining like a brilliant beacon, drowning out present and past. With such light filling his senses, he could think only of the future; he was the future, as his mother Themis was cosmic Order and his father Iapetus was unthinking rage. In a time when the ravenous mouth of Cronus reduced everything to unchanging present, Prometheus could not prevent himself from helping to bring about the change to come any more than he could prevent his immortal body from breathing.

So it was that when the young god Zeus forced his father to regurgitate his older brothers and sisters, coughing the future back into the world, Prometheus pledged his aid in the upcoming struggle with the old powers. Prometheus didn't think much of Zeus, even then - he was far too impetuous, too controlled by his lusts and jealousies - but he was the only future Prometheus could see. He convinced his brother Epimetheus, who could mostly only think of the past and his regrets, to join him; Epimetheus had learned that following Prometheus gave him less to regret than otherwise, though he would have cause to reconsider that philosophy later on.

The struggle between the young gods and the titans, between the future and the unchanging now, lasted a long time; there are some who claim it continues still. Such was the scope of the conflict that the fabric of the universe was damaged; Mother Earth became more barren, the weather more violent.

As the reign of Cronus ended, eternal summer passed into autumn. Change had come to the universe, and the people of the Golden Age began to fade and die - peacefully, without pain, death being as dreamlike and inconsequential as their lives had been. Prometheus saw the future, when young Kore would be abducted by grim Hades, and knew that Earth's new custodian Demeter did not have the fortitude to continue her duty dispassionately, as Rhea and her mother Gaea had before. As Demeter suffered, so would the world, and the Golden Age humanity that Prometheus and Epimetheus had made would not survive the coming winter. Prometheus knew what he must do.

With great stealth and cleverness, Prometheus entered the forge of the gods in Olympus, where the lighting that provided Zeus with his edge against his elders was made. As lightning was his greatest weapon, his ace in the hole, he forbade any others from wielding it, but trusted Prometheus stole a bit anyway in order to prevent his chosen race from dying out entirely.

The harpies, the Hounds of Zeus, smelled the smoke from the crackling mortal hearths and, as Prometheus had known they would, reported the discovery to their master. The tale of the woes Zeus visited upon humanity, using Epimetheus as his instrument, is best saved for another day. What is important here is Prometheus' own punishment, his crucifixion on Mount Caucasus, the spine of his mother Asia (for some say the oceanid Asia was his mother, and not Themis), of the raptor child of Typhon and Echidna who tears his liver from his guts daily. Whether Caucasus is somewhere on the Material Plane, where Prometheus' creations now rule, or whether it is on a secret Demiplane of Imprisonment, or perhaps somewhere in Arborea or Carceri, is unclear - the will of Zeus keeps it hidden. For Prometheus, despite the braggings of Heracles, is imprisoned still.

Prometheus, the titan of the future, is trapped again in an eternal present, this one filled with torture and suffering rather than lazy summer days. It is believed by the sect of humans who call themselves the Prometheans, the Believers of the Fire, or sometimes the Believers of the Source after the titan who is the source of humanity and all its works, that no real progress can be made by humanity while the titan of progress remains bound. Thus all the worlds remain locked in what they term the "middle ages," superior to the dark ages before the theft of fire, but inferior to that which is destined to come; a time when warriors must sheathe themselves in steel and mages forget their spells after they cast them. One day, when Prometheus is free, the fires between atoms themselves will be laid bare for human use.

Prometheus and those who worship him hate the gods and spirits they see as enslaving humanity, trapping them in this eternal present of torment and death. They oppose not only the gods of Olympus but all benighted superstitions of the present divine order and previous ones - they oppose the faerie courts with iron and faith, they oppose the giants with swords and arrows, and they oppose the fiends of the lower planes, unless - as a few have - they present themselves as allying themselves with their cause. One day, the future will be unbound, and the heavens will tremble.

Epimetheus - Afterthought, CG

Father of mankind and its woes, Epimetheus wanders the upper planes. He has a tower in Bytopia that is perpetually falling apart.

Asteria - Flight, N

Asteria, daughter of Ceos and Phoebe, appeared as a night-black titan with eyes that sparkled like stars. She was the mother, with Perses, of Hecate. To escape the attentions of Zeus, she transformed herself into the floating island of Ortygia (or Delos), where Apollo and Artemis were born to her sister Leto. Ortygia is a demiplane that moves through the multiverse, never fixed in any one place.

Perses - Destruction, CE

Perses is the titan of elemental destruction, a bringer of plagues, earthquakes, and floods. Perses' orb in Carceri is populated with fiendish medusas, night hags, and mariliths who act as his lovers in the absence of Asteria, his wife. It always seems on the verge of falling apart. With Asteria, he was the father of Hecate.

Pallas - Storms, CE

Son of Crius and Eurybia and brother of Perses and Astraeus. Pallas is the husband of Styx, the river of the underworld. With Styx, he was the father of Bia (titan of violence), Cratus (titan of strength), Nike (goddess of victory), and Zelus (titan of jealousy).

Pallas' orb in Porphatys is covered with storm clouds and crackles with lightning. It is flooded by his wife, the River Styx. There he dwells in a vast palace, bereft of memories, with his children Bia, Cratus, and Zelus, controlled by his yugoloth advisors. They manipulate him into opposing Oceanus, who is a great rival of theirs.

His daughter Nike went to live with the Olympians.

Astraeüs - Stars, CE

Son of Crius and Eurybia Astraeus is the father (by Eos) of the wind gods Boreas, Zephyrus, and Notus, and the stars. His orb in Carceri is eternally lashed by savage winds. It is night black. Astraeus glows with the light of a distant sun.

Eurybia - light reflected off the ocean, NE

A daughter of Gaea and Pontus, Eurybia glows with the brightness of waves in the sun, but her heart has literally turned to stone as a by-product of her marrying the titan of gravity, Crius. She dwells in Carceri with her husband, stern and unyielding as the flint that makes up her heart.

Tartarus - Betrayal, CE

A sibling of Gaea, Erebus, Eros, and Nyx, Tartarus has become one with the plane of Carceri. It is his malevolent intelligence that betrays every plan the titans have to escape, that sows lies and jealousy among the inmates of the Red Prison, that prevents Mount Olympus from connecting Mount Othrys to the realm of the Olympian gods or the Underworld.

Erebus - Darkness, NE

Furious at the creation of matter in the primeval emptiness of Chaos, Erebus has retreated to the Plane of Shadow, where he broods in solitude. Mount Olympus briefly connects to his domain in its descent between Arborea and the Gray Waste.

Nyx - Night, CN

The goddess of night and the former consort of Erebus, and, before that, Chaos itself. Nyx knows all mysteries and is beyond the control of the Olympian gods. She has, on occasion, given advice to her lovers, to Uranus, to the titans, and to the Olympians. She helped train Hecate in the secrets of magic. Because it pleases her to do so, she dwells in Arborea, where she coordinates the cycle of darkness and light with her daughter Hemera, goddess of day.

Acheron - Sadness, LE

A son of Oceanus and Tethys. Father of Asclepius, god of healing. Banished to the lower planes for providing drinks to the Titans.

Styx - Oaths, NE

A daughter of Oceanus and Tethys, Styx was cast by the celestials into the lower planes after the Clash of the Titans in the hope of cleansing the higher realms of her father's evil.

She is dark and vast; things disappear forever within her depths. The gods themselves are said to fear her, and oaths sworn by Styx cannot be broken even by them.

Because her waters have long mingled with those of her sister Lethe, which also flows through the Underworld, she has taken on the other river's property of causing amnesia to all who touch her. In fact, she is said to be the more potent and terrible of the two. Lethe's water is a blessing for those for whom memories are pain; Styx is only ever a curse.

She is wedded to the titan Pallas. Some would also say she is, in a way, wedded to Leviathan, lord of Stygia, and Cerlic, leader of the marraenaloths.

Cocytus - Grief, NE

Brother of Styx, the Wailing River Cocytus is one with the frozen waters of Carceri's innermost layer. He is also a tributary of the iron river Acheron, which flows through all four layers of that plane, beginning in the ice of Ocanthus. Styx, Acheron, Cocytus, and Pyriphlegethon all flow through the Underworld in Pluton. Some also believe that Cocytus flows through Caina, in Baator, and perhaps even Nessus.

Cocytus' waters echo with the crying of restless souls.

Ophion - Creation, N

Ophion is a manifestation of the World Serpent archetype, a vast snake shaped from the winds by his lover Eurynome. He coiled around the egg that hatched into the universe. The titans, lead by Cronus and Rhea, cast him into the River Styx and Eurynome into the River Oceanus, so they could steal their mortal worshippers and take their place. Now Ophion is trapped in Carceri, coiled seven times around an orb in Porphatys. Some believe the orb may one day hatch into a new plane of existence; others say it is hopelessly infertile, and Ophion's hopes are only another of Carceri's lies.

Eurynome - Creation, NG

A goddess of creation, Eurynome is said to have emerged from Chaos at the beginning of all things. Now she dwells in Thalasia, in Elysium, banished there by the titans long before the rise of the Olympian gods. She mourns her consort, trapped in Carceri, bathed daily by the bitter waters of Porphatys, coiled around an egg that will never hatch.

Despite her isolation from the Olympians, she was once seduced by Zeus. She bore him the three Graces.

Titans of the Scarred Lands

Chern (CHURN), of the Scourge, of the Last Great Sickness and Suffering - CE

Chern of the Scourge is one of the elder titans who once ruled world of Scarn before they were overthrown by the gods. He is the father of Mane. Chern is known for creating many races of vermin and magical plagues that continue to infest the world of mortals.

Denev (den-EV), the Earth Mother (N; Earth, Nature, Death - natural, the Seasons) - N

Denev is the only titan of Scarn to side with the gods. Alone of her kind, she remains free on the Material Plane, worshiped by druids.

Gaurak (GAH-rock), the Glutton, the Voracious One - CE

The notoriously obese Gaurak is said in myth to have eaten all the forests, seas, plains, beasts, and people that once flourished on the moon, leaving it a barren and airless hunk of rock. The gods pulled out his hundred teeth before burying him. He is the father of Girzon, titan of death, and Porphyl, titan of life..

Golthain (GALL-thane) the Faceless - CE (N)

Golthain the Faceless was remembered for the mild touch of compassion he felt toward his creations, which include certain obscure races of giants. He had his eyes, ears, and tongue torn out by his brother and sister titans so that he could no longer enjoy his creations or learn how badly they treated their own creations, and the gods sundered and imprisoned him so that he would not, even blind and senseless as he was, seek revenge for the defeat of the other titans.

Golthagga (gall-THAH-ga), of the Forge, the Shaper - CE

Golthagga was the master smith of the titans of Skarn. He is remembered for creating titanic, mechanical versions of other forms of life. He was slain by the god Corean while still at his forge, but his life-force lives on in countless clockwork abominations .

Gormoth (GORE-moth), The Writhing Lord - CE

Gormoth the Writhing Lord was first poisoned by his sister Mormo and then split in half from skull to crotch by the gods. Each half was placed on opposite sides of a gorge in Carceri. They flail and writhe miserably, trying to once again become whole.

Gulaben (goo-LAH-bin), Lady of the Winds of Madness - CE

Gulaben was an invisible titan, as unseen as the winds. She created many aerial abominations, humanoids, and wind spirits. She was finally bound by a great ritual, but the site of her prison is as invisible and mysterious as she was.

Hrinruuk (he-RIN-rook) the Hunter - CE

The stealthy Hrinruuk the Hunter slew at least two gods in their great war. He was finally decapitated by the god Hedrada, and his still-living body endlessly wanders the orbs of Carceri in search of it. He is the father of Zadara and Malephus.

Kadum (KAH-doom), the Mountainshaker, the Bleeding One - CE

Kadum got his heart cut out by the gods and he was chained to a rock, which was thrown into the depths of the ocean Porphatys in Carceri. Around his prison, the waters run red with his blood, which has quickened the evolution of mutant merfolk, krakens, and other aquatic beasts. Algorn is his son.

Lethene (lay-THEEN), Dame of Storms, the Untamed One - CE

The titan of storms, Lethene mated with Kadum the Mountainshaker, and their son is Algorn. She, too, is imprisoned in Porphatys.

Mesos (MAY-zohz), Sire of Sorcery, the Disrupted - CE

The greatest sorcerer among the titans of Skarn, Mesos's essence was scattered by the gods and a council of the greatest mortal archmages. Throughout Carceri and on other planes as well, abominations made from pure magic lurk, each with a fragment of Mesos's memory.

Mormo (MORE-moh), Mother of Serpents, Queen of Witches - CE

Said to have created the medusae and other serpentine races, Mormo's pieces were strewn across Carceri. Her followers seek to put her back together.

Thulkas (thool-KAHS), Father of Fire, the Iron God - CE

Thulkas was said to be made of rock and filled with magma. Unable to break him, the god Corean instead reforged him on Golthagga's smithy into the shape of an arrow and shot him into the sun.

Lesser Titans of the Scarred Lands

Algorn - the Seas, CG

Algorn is a son of Kadum the Bleeding One and Lethene, and has incredible command over water. He can create and freeze lakes or simply make water jet from his hands as an attack. He spends most of his time in Ossa, Arborea's second layer, but occasionally wanders the length of the Oceanus. He is friends with Eurynome and Nereus, and is often accompanied by river and lake nymphs.

Mane - Felines, CG

A son of Chern, Mane has always hated the vermin his father created, and seeks endlessly to destroy them. By tapping into his feline essence, Mane can cure himself of any wound, poison, or disease. Mane can transform into any giant cat and back again up to five times a day. Mane is an ally of the Cat Lord's, and is precariously trying to maintain his relationship with Bast at the same time without upsetting either power. Both are quick to jealous rages, however, and if they suspect that Mane is cheating on one of them with the other Mane could be in very bad trouble.

Porphyl - Growth, CG

A son of Gaurak the Glutton, Porphyl gives back what his father and his brother Girzon take. With his touch, seeds become mighty oaks and babes become mature warriors. Like his brother Girzon, Porphyl defers to their aunt Denev's wisdom when it comes to how often he should use his talent. He would never deliberately abuse it. He spends most of his time in the Beastlands and Arborea, communing with the various spirits of animals and nature.

Malephus - Law and Justice, LG

Another son of Hrinruuk, Malephus hunts down criminals as his father hunted down beasts. He has no skin on his arms, legs, or torso - he flayed them off himself in an attempt to reconcile with Hedrada, the Scarred Lands god of justice. The flesh ended up going to Bune, Baator's Duke of Eloquence, instead, the whole thing being one of Bune's tricks. Malephus and Hedrada never reconciled; this is the only time Malephus has ever been deceived. Normally he has the ability to unerringly detect any lie or falsehood. He cannot himself deceive anyone, even through omission. He wanders the Upper Planes seeking out injustice.

Syllia - Love, CG

A daughter of Guluben, the undetectable Lady of the Winds, Syllia inherited some of her mother's power over madness. The particular madness Syllia has command over is love. Like her mother, Syllia is hard for even gods to see coming; she creeps up with her victims unaware, and dispenses her gift in secret. She can remove hatred, unhappiness, sorrow, and apathy from anyone for at least a day or so. As a favor to the gods, she sometimes uses this power to stop wars and such.

Girzon - Death, CG

A son of Gaurak, Girzon is the lesser titan of Death; he can take life from any living being. He has always deferred to his aunt Denev when in doubt about the use of his powers, and his restraint is proverbial. Girzon spends most of his time in the sands of Pelion, the third and final of Arborea's passions, accompanied by minor spirits of death.

Zadara - Potential, N

A daughter of Hrinruuk the Hunter, Zadara inherited from her father the ability to detect the unseen, in her case the latent potential found in all she meets. In this she was surely aided by the blood of Miridum, goddess of lore, which splattered her when her father slew the demigoddess.

After the gods defeated the other titans, Zadara fled to another world, Rublia, where she attempted to pass herself off as a goddess. This ended badly. She hates Malephus for trying to reconcile with Hedrada, who decapitated Zadara's father. She uses fallen archons as servants in order to annoy Hedrada, should he hear of it. She fears Skeartim, a god of Rublia who seeks to punish her for her hubris, and fears and hates the other gods of Skarn. She has two worshippers remaining: Lethea and Lesander, two wemics from Rublia who do not know of her exile. She currently hides in Sigil, where she uses her talents to make herself a powerful Golden Lord.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

It's funny that this thread suddenly revitalized on the day I was reading through some Carceri details in the Vortex of Madness.

In that supplement, Themis and Mnemosyne were trapped in Carceri (despite Rip's extensive and appreciated notes to the contrary). They had found a vein of strange black marble (which turned out to be the body of the comatose primal titan, Uranus, burried under a mountain)
The two titanesses found that this black marble could absorb strong magical energy (near artifact level) to allow the manipulation of space. (The stone could also absorb life energy but so far this is undiscovered)
The two titanesses were using this stone to build the Black Acropolis and use it as a way to free themselves without releasing Cronus (whom they consider worse than Zeus). Then they would plot their revenge on Zeus for their imprisonment.
One complication, if the stone is empowered enough to allow for escape, it might also be enough to re-awaken the comatose Uranus

The module didn't do more than place these pieces on the chessboard so there was no real resolution or direction in which to take it; but I found the concepts interesting

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

ripvanwormer wrote:
Prometheus

It is believed by the sect of humans who call themselves the Prometheans, the Believers of the Fire, or sometimes the Believers of the Source after the titan who is the source of humanity and all its works, that no real progress can be made by humanity while the titan of progress remains bound. Thus all the worlds remain locked in what they term the "middle ages," superior to the dark ages before the theft of fire, but inferior to that which is destined to come; a time when warriors must sheathe themselves in steel and mages forget their spells after they cast them. ...

Prometheus and those who worship him hate the gods and spirits they see as enslaving humanity, trapping them in this eternal present of torment and death.

The later paragraph sounds more like an Athar attitude. Could the figure of Prometheus serve as a symbol that could unite the usually divergent Athar and Godsmen in a major movement? [Although, the Athar would still refuse to worship him]
Perhaps the Fated could also see Prometheus as a "John Galt" type figure and throw their weight into it too.
[I'll resist trying to type Atlas back into it despite the Rand-ian reference]

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

Not to undermine VanWormer's recent contribution; but I think we might have enough Greek-inspired titans to pick and choose from now.

Does anyone have some suggestions in a different mold? E.g.
-elder evils or primordials
-desposed gods from other pantheons
-devil lords that failed in their attempt to climb the heirarcal ladder of success
-deposed elemental princes or genies, etc.

Will they form cross-factions and opponents? E.g.
-perhaps a lesser Greek titan teams up with a deposed demon lord to escape without drawing the attention of Cronus
-perhaps an ancient Summerian god of earthquakes will team up with deposed Norse god of avalanches to steal power from an Elder Evil, etc.

Jem
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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

Your mention of genies gives me the idea that the Red Prison might be a good place to put the lost lore required to create the Seal of Solomon. Perhaps there are suggestions in obscure sources across the planes that the Seal itself can be found here, possibly worked into the fabric of an orb or a prison full of genies somewhere.

One last idea: a "rescue service" that comes awfully expensive. They'll get the life story from a prisoner, then go and execute or bankrupt or energy-drain whoever jailed them, until the prisoner is stronger than his jailor, and can theoretically escape through the regular portals. Their price is levels and XP -- a transfer of spiritual strength, until their escapee is reduced to even less than he was before he came to Carceri. But he's free.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

Quote:
hat supplement, Themis and Mnemosyne were trapped in Carceri (despite Rip's extensive and appreciated notes to the contrary). They had found a vein of strange black marble (which turned out to be the body of the comatose primal titan, Uranus, burried under a mountain)

Yeah, when I wrote the above (several years ago), I didn't yet own a copy of that. I considered revising it in light of Vortex of Madness, but decided presenting another point of view might still be valuable.

It's actually easy enough to just move the Elder Muses and Themis into Carceri without changing anything else I wrote. Themis could still have a judge-of-the-dead role among Carceri's damned.

Sciborg did some great work on the titans, too, if he's reading this.

Quote:
Could the figure of Prometheus serve as a symbol that could unite the usually divergent Athar and Godsmen in a major movement?

Possibly!

Quote:
I'll resist trying to type Atlas back into it despite the Rand-ian reference

Haha, I don't think I could be so strong.

Quote:
Does anyone have some suggestions in a different mold?

Actually, yeah, I did have one other idea. Over on the Piazza, I just contributed to a thread about advancing the Spelljammer setting 100 years to match Toril's 4e advancement. I wrote this:

Quote:
The Age of Worms Though the demigod Kyuss was thought thwarted in 596 CY, in truth a few of his constituent worms survived. In 597 CY he had reformed and, more powerful than ever, he brought about the long-prophesied Age of Worms. With the aid of his patron Nerull, Kyuss called forth the elder evil Atropus from its resting place in the Grinder. As the moonlike Atropus drew nearer, the dead rose all over the Oerth, and all life might have been consumed. However, Nerull's consort, a spirit he had named Nera, was freed from Carceri by a group of adventurers, and she took advantage of Nerull's distraction in focusing his power on the coming of Atropus to slay her hated jailer. With Nerull dead, Atropus stopped advancing and adventurers could drive it back to the Grinder where it would hopefully rest for another thirty thousand years. Nera, now a greater goddess calling herself the Raven Queen, took it upon herself to bring order to the realm of unlife, clearing away many of the awakened dead and setting up a new realm on the Plane of Shadow to deal with errant spirits. With his patron slain and the new Raven Queen hostile to his existence, Kyuss slithered away (and, some say, was imprisoned anew by the Raven Queen or her minions). Oerth was damaged by the experience, but managed to survive.

Basically, the idea is that in order to thwart the coming of the Elder Evil Atropus (who I'd place in outer space, as Elder Evils placed it, rather than in Carceri), the PCs travel to Nerull's realm deep in Carceri and rescue his consort Nera, who is able to kill him and become the Raven Queen.

4th edition core has the Raven Queen actually ascend to divinity way back in the Dawn War eons ago, but games that follow previous-edition continuity would want to have it happen later, and in a way that PCs can participate in.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

Maybe the jailor who is said to run this place is just as imprisoned as the Titans. He prevents the Titans from escaping because it is the only thing he can do from his cell.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

Har Megidon wrote:
Maybe the jailor who is said to run this place is just as imprisoned as the Titans. He prevents the Titans from escaping because it is the only thing he can do from his cell.
Of course, to do that the jailor must be really powerful. Maybe he is Tharizdun? That fact would never be stated outright, though. Just in implications. (where is the edit button jeez)

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

One thing I've been meaning to say in this thread for a while is that everyone should download Phoenix Lore #2 (it's free) and check out the Carcerian city detailed there, Soul Silt. It's by Todd "Shemeska the Marauder" Stewart, and blatantly intended for Planescape, though a few of the serial numbers have been filed off. It's kind of funny, in fact: the article recommends "two neutral evil fiendish races from your campaign" - obviously, from the context, these are gehreleths/demodands and yugoloths, though I have seen alternate neutral evil fiendish races that have been very well designed.

Anyway, Soul Silt, unlike some planar cities, is given a definite reason for being there. It's situated by a portal from the upper layers and it's the only known source for rare pearls (which might actually be the eggs of some Carcerian creature, or a final form of the local petitioners) that can be used as gate keys. One thought I had was that it might be a good idea to make the pearls of Soul Silk the only way to get out of Carceri (or, at least, one of only a few rare ways), so that the PCs either have to buy them in Carcerian marketplaces if they're available or travel all the way down to Porphatys and purchase or harvest them themselves, gathering or purchasing enough to activate each portal leading to the outer layers and finally to another plane. It'd give them a pressing reason to visit the city (which is very interesting, I think), and emphasize the prison theme of the plane.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

I was putting together a number of points in an effort to give this thread a bump; but I came across one that I'd like to discuss before the rest.

-What is the role of the gehreleths? Devils seek to tyranically control all they see. Demons seek to destroy or corrupt everything they see. Yugoloths secretly plot towards their mysterious goals. But what do the gehreleths do?

I see them as wanting to have the role of the yugoloths but they feel bitterly robbed of their “birthright”. I imagine Apomps has drilled into their heads that they are a “superior” species that should have the power controlled by the yugoloths. This would make the gehreleths the jealous “kid sibling” that feels that they never get the respect or opportunities they deserve. They would be almost as scheming and devious as the yugoloths, but their bitterness and impatience would occasionally rise to the surface in fits of intense anger.

Just as Carceri is layered, with each layer concealing something deeper within. The gehreleths would at first present a surface veneer of being crafty and calculating (which they are); but occasionally the deeper layers of pettiness and rage would break through. The fact that the yugoloths don’t even respect them enough to consider them a threat further enrages the gehreleths.
[I keep trying to tie in a “Marsha! Marsha! Marsha!” reference but can’t think of a good way]

If we follow this concept, the gehreleths might actually be an untrustworthy ally to someone acting against the yugoloths. But this ally has a few drawbacks:
1) If the PCs doesn’t advance the gehreleth’s plan quickly enough (or worse doesn't accomplish EXACTLY what the gehreleth wanted), the ally might lash out at them
2) I also imagine that no gehreleth wants another gehreleth to gain an adventage, so they are constantly sabotaging each other’s plans.

So what does everyone think of this take?

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

The Gehreleths symbolize rebellion and minor resistance/terrorist movements, I believe. They represent the more 'thuggish' side of organized crime-- the tendency for syndicates to devour themselves out of greed, hate, and paranoia. Reality-wise, the Gehreleths represent groups such as the Izzudin Al Qassam and Fath Al Islam (these groups are far more extreme than Hamas, tend to be less organized, and are more constantly at one another's throats) along with the North American prison gangs such as Aryan Brotherhood. These are groups who tend to be severely oppressed (and for good reason in the case of the prison gangs and other violent white supremacist groups), and don't accomplish nearly as much as they could due to internal strife and extreme ideology-- they don't accomplish much and are repeatedly decimated by centralized governments because they view all centralized governments as their ultimate enemy which absolutely cannot be negotiated with (although some groups attempt to form their own political wings)
The Yugoloths, OTOH, represent the more refined and organized crime syndicates such as the Italian Mafia, the Yakuza, and possibly the Russian mafia. They thrive compared to the Gehreleths because their philosophy is one of subtlety and working with/manipulating the centralized government, which gives them control over it.
This mostly refers to the Gehennan Yugoloths, however. The Gray Waste Yugoloths represent despair, inability to change with the times, clinging to outdated tradition, pain, and disease/pestilence. (whereas the Gehennan Yugoloths represent adaptation to the times)

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

Hyena of Ice wrote:
The Gehreleths symbolize rebellion and minor resistance/terrorist movements, I believe.

...

The Yugoloths, OTOH, represent the more refined and organized crime syndicates such as the Italian Mafia, the Yakuza, and possibly the Russian mafia

Oh wow. I really love this comparison, I never thought about it that way.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

Yes, the gereleths can be about rebellion but against what are they rebelling?

The gods? Perhaps, but that seems more of a role for the titans to me.
Anyone (i.e. they seek to tear down any existing structure)? Seems a little more likely, but a bit impersonal in my mind

To my mind, the best group for the gereleths to plot against (aside from general strikes against goodness) would be the yugoloths.
As you mentioned, the yugoloths are the "established" organization (of evil). The gereleths are the "also-ran"s that want a piece of the pie. A pie that they fundamentally believe is owed to them and not to anyone else. They think they should be in charge of the operation/army/jihad of Evil and they resent the individuals (i.e. the yugoloths) that have usurped their place. The gereleths don't see that it is the fundamental flaw in their own nature is what is truly keeping them them taking a more commanding role in the command of Evil.

You compare the gereleths to groups that think they are racially or religiously superior; as I suggested, the gereleths have been led to believe of themselves as a superior species by thier creator, Apomps.

You stated that they should be "more thuggish"; as I mentioned, they try to be the sophisticated plotters that the yugoloths are but they are held back by their own inability to deal with the anger and frustration that lies at the core of their being.

Admittedly, the sole (or even main) target of the gereleths shouldn't be the yugoloths. They will often strike out at symbols of good because:
1) they hate anything that is good
2) in doing so, the gereleths demonstrate that they are more effective forces of evil that the seemingly inactive yugoloths

But since they feel the yugoloths have "robbed them" of their birthright, I see the gereleths as also wanting to strike against the yugoloths and their webs of intrigue

Personally, I also like the dynamic that this sets up. Yes, we've seen two evenly matched races of fiends fighting one another; but here we would have the hopeless, bitter underdog trying to take down the powerful, entrenched rival that doesn't even consider them to be worthy of consideration.

------------------------------------
If we follow this logic, it might give us a clue as to how the plane should be structured. Perhaps the surface layer of Caraceri is relatively cold and passionless. But the deeper one goes into its layers, the more primal and violent things become (mirroring the gereleths attempts to cover up the frustrated, angry core of what they are)
Personally, I like this idea and I think I would place the more violent "titans" (e.g. Malar, Cronus, etc.) in the deeper layers while the less passionate inmates might inhabit higher layers.

Unfortunately, this doesn't mesh up too well with the defined layers where things seem to get colder as one goes deeper
Orthys (Swamps)
Cathrys (Jungles)
Minethys (Cold Deserts)
Colothys (Mountains)
Porphatys (Black Snow and Oceans)
Agathys (Ice)

Perhaps it is an inverse relationship: the more violent residents absorb the energy of the world around them to fuel thier own burning hatred?
It's a stretch, but maybe it will inspire someone

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

With all respect to all previous posters.

This is my first post on this forum, I just created an acocunt. I have read through this thread because it first of all is very interesting and secondly because I am designing a campaign taking place on Carceri. I have some thoughts, of what has been discussed, that I want to share.

Gereleths
Finding any concrete information on these fantastic creatures is difficult to say the least. From what I gather, from a moral perspective, the Gereleths does not have any enemies, nor are they rebelling and have no lust for scheming. Why is that? They might just be a hardware running a simple software. They all have a triangle that somehow give them knowledge of who they are and perhaps instructions on what they should do. I am thinking of war robots. I heard of a war robot in Irac that malfunctioned and killed several civilians. Here we have a vehicle of death that is not concerned with right or wrong, it just does what it is told to do, unless it malfunctions and even then it is not its "fault". For someone who takes emotional loss from the deaths this robot caused has no way to connect, in human terms, with this robot. There is no understanding, no empathizing. If you destroy the robot for revenge, the robot does not care and its creator can just create a new one. If there now is a definition for pure evil, this is close to what it is, as I see it at this point.

The Gereleths, then, could be similar to this war robot, or the concept I described at least. They are always 3,333 in total (unless the blood war has amplified on Carceri). They wear the triangle, the software, which gives them knowledge and instructions. If they die, Apomp just creates a new one. Could this be the reason why they have no interest in scheming, has no particular enemies or want to rebel, they just Do and what they do is evil?

Is this something to build on or is it not in the right direction?

PS. The problem I see with the above reasoning is their high intelligence and that they are Chaotic.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

You compare the gereleths to groups that think they are racially or religiously superior; as I suggested, the gereleths have been led to believe of themselves as a superior species by thier creator, Apomps.
Suggest? I thought it was heavily implied that the Gehreleths believe this.

Admittedly, the sole (or even main) target of the gereleths shouldn't be the yugoloths. They will often strike out at symbols of good because:
1) they hate anything that is good
2) in doing so, the gereleths demonstrate that they are more effective forces of evil that the seemingly inactive yugoloths

Part of the reason that the gehreleths are so ineffective is because they are bitter have-nots who want to take their frustration out upon everyone, but especially-- ESPECIALLY the have's. The haves, in this case, being anyone who can leave Carceri. Planes of Conflict states repeatedly that the maliciousness and dog-eat-dog-ness of the Gehreleths, petitioners, and damn near everything else on Carceri is fueled by their bitterness of being imprisoned, combined with their thirst for freedom.

But since they feel the yugoloths have "robbed them" of their birthright, I see the gereleths as also wanting to strike against the yugoloths and their webs of intrigue
Yes. I remember reading somewhere (wasn't Planes of Conflict as I initially thought, so it might be the Altraloth article in Dragon Magazine) that the Gehreleths absolutely hate the Yugoloths for being dominant over them. It is the Yugoloths who rule Carceri, and who keep the race's numbers down to a mere 9,999 in the process (though they can double their numbers if a need truly arises). The Yugoloths have also taken control of every last inch of remotely valuable land and resource on the plane, and exiled the remaining Gehreleths to the lonely barrens. The Yugoloths are the occupiers and oppressers of the Gehreleths, who bitterly hate them for it. They also hate the Tanar'ri, who comb the area for conscripts.

As for the reason why Gehreleths won't harm one another, the reason is implied in the PS Monstrous Compendium 1 and Planes of Conflict. If their black triangles give the individuals access to knowledge of the entire collective, then slaying a fellow Gehreleth would be self-defeating, and the entire race simply becomes that much dumber for it.

Perhaps it is an inverse relationship: the more violent residents absorb the energy of the world around them to fuel thier own burning hatred?
It's a stretch, but maybe it will inspire someone

Actually, no, I think the setup is supposed to represent how the plane becomes more ruthless, bitter, and cruel as one reaches deeper rather than anger and violence as heat. Bitterness is usually associated with cold rather than heat (hence why there are hints of bitterness in Cryonax's personality *towards the Elder Eye* in Dragon 347) The hate felt by the petitioners and natives of Carceri is the slow, festering type rather than the seething type-- Planes of Conflict even states this much (though not in the same terms)

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

Not to be dismissive of your first posting, but I do see a few issues that just "feel wrong" to me.
1) Having the gerleths as "robots" kind of robs them of any personality. Admittedly, they are so ill-defined right now, that don't have much in the way of personality or motivation; but personally, I'd rather give them something to give them a "personality" rather than provide a reason for why they don't have one.

2) If they are "robots", it begs the question of what reason did Apomps create them? What exactly is Apomps waiting for before unleashing them? This actually brings up a few sparks of possibility in my mind.

3) Your description for the gereleths doesn't capture much of the feeling of entrapment and bitterness that I associate with the plane. Admittedly, this isn't MADATORY that residents perfectly mirror the "spirit" of the plane but in general I prefer it to be at least close to some aspect of the plane.

Ultimately though, this is the kind of thing that could be played a number of different ways without upsetting the "cannon" materia too muchl (the one benefit of an underdefined idea). On a completely arbitrary judgment, it feels a bit off to me; but if you (or anyone else) like this concept run with it. Goodness knows I've put out some ideas that didn't meet with approval.

And please keep posting, we need new perspectives to keep things fresh.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

Thanks for your reply.

I agree with all of your three points. In your second point you taged on to the idea and rasied a good question. What are Apomps motivations and goals? With the facts that he 1. Creates them and 2. gives all three types of Gereleths a physical object that gives them knowledge, Apomps Motivations and goals seems to, me, more relevant than the individual Gereleths goals.

I think the idea that keeps me biased in this view, is that a monster that an adventurer cannot relate or empathise with, as it is just programmed and controlled by Apomps, creates a moral dilemma that is not so often found in other monsters or deities. The Gereleths would then be Amoral, either diliberately or forced. I could see this beeing especially interesting in a plane like Carceri. A prison should after all be able to breed all kinds of people and monsters.

In regards to your third point. Isn't it that if a Gereleth is controlled by Apomp, through the triangle or other means, that they are very much imprisoned? Could it be that because this would mean the Gereleths are robbed of a personality, that it is difficult to get a feel for them? Because I do not get the "right feel" for it either, ironically enough.

If this seems to narrow and single minded for Gereleth behaviour, are there more aspects of the plane that could make this more diverse?

I enjoyed reading your reply so I look forward to further input/output.

Edit: Upon further thinking and reading, I feel that this concept would fit more in Hades and it seems more probable that the Gereleths do have motivations and a "moral code". Nontheless, the idea is out there now.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

Since I've never come up with an angle on Apomps and the gehreleths that I've really embraced, I'm willing to hear any ideas you might be able to offer to make them more interesting. I agree that your take on the gehreleths is fine provided that Apomps is given some purpose aside from sitting around plotting generically evil plans that I've never seen referenced as ever actually being enacted. What ideas do you have for Apomps?

For ease of reference, here are some ideas (cannon and non) that have been suggested so far

**Apomps the Three-Sided (/wiki/apomps)
-created the gehreleths and was exiled for this act (cannon)
-seeking to free himself from his prison cell (without drawing the attention of those that imprisoned him
-possibly a “false persona” for a truly great evil
-seeking to keep the most powerful titans trapped in the deepest layers of Carceri; possibly to feed of their power
-seeking to free the most powerful titans (but in a way that gives him control and doesn’t alert the gods that imprisoned the titans)
-any significance to his name "the Three-Sided"?

**Gehreleths
-on off-shoot version of the yugoloths created by Apomps (cannon)
-led (probably by Apomps) to think of themselves as racially or religiously superior to other species (particularly the yugoloths) (not cannon but implied)
-corrupt or sadistic prison wardens and guards; working to keep the "old things" imprisonned in the 6th layer from waking up and taking over the control of the plane from them and Apomps
-physical manifestation of the rancor and ire that the trapped titans feel
-Any significance to their constant number of 3,333 (not counting multiplying under certain conditions)?

So what have you got?

Alternatively, what ideas do you have for an adventure in Carceri (since you mentioned above that you were planning something there)?

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

In regards to your third point. Isn't it that if a Gereleth is controlled by Apomp, through the triangle or other means, that they are very much imprisoned?

They aren't imprisoned or controlled by Apomps or the triangles. The triangles simply allow them access to the knowledge of all the other Gehreleths. Thus, giving us an understanding of why the Gehreleths won't fight one another. The Yugoloths have a very similar system (the higher-up loths have mental contact to some degree with the libraries of their race), but because the information is contained in books and on the flesh of petitioners instead of in the minds of their kin, the Yugoloths have no problem killing on another. Since Apomps is a rogue Baernaloth, it's likely that his goals are very similar to those of the other Baernaloths.
We know that the goal of the other Baernaloths was to create the Yugoloths to maintain a balance between the lawful and chaotic aspects of evil, and to spread evil. Problem is that they and Apomps are too weak and small in number to be of much significance, and, while they have a collective database based on the knowledge of each member, the books imply that the Gehreleths do not physically work together for the most part, which of course would greatly limit thair accomplishments.
We can assume that Apomps and the Gehreleths could be compared to a breakaway cult from a large, organized religion (the Yugoloths and their goals). The Gehreleths and Apomps are therefore viewed as heretics by the 'loths, and oppressed for it. Especially since we see many similarities between the Gehreleths and the Yugoloths, including mental contact with great databases. In addition, the Gehreleths seem to have been created to spread evil, much like the Yugoloths.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

I guess my problem with the "middle-evil" planes (Gehenna, Wastes and Carceri) falls under the "show, don't tell" rule of story-telling.

For demons, I picture them in a vein similar to the Joker in Batman. An unpredictable force that might toy with you and crush your soul or might just tear you to shreds where you stand, with no reliable way to predict how they will react (short of knowing that you aren't going to like it whatever they ultimately do). And I think there has been a number of adventures and demonic characters that demonstrate this.

For devils, I see the ultimate tyrants trying to grind the world beneath its heel. Sure they might seek to corrupt you and destroy your soul; but they do this to unltimately control the victim. Again, plenty of examples where this is played out. (Admittedly, they might also cold-heartedly kill you, but if they do so it is usually as a step in a plan of theirs)

For the "middle-evil" planes, we have the yugoloths and the gehreleths (an off-shoot of the yugoloths). Most of the time (IMO), we are told of the yugoloths being evil and they certainly act suspiciously; but because their plans are always so damn mysterious and their methods are so subtly manipulative, I never get much of a feel that these middle-evil races are actually doing anything that produce short-term results. And consequently, we never know if we thwarted them or played the role of a pawn.

Yes, the yugoloth are manipulating both sides of the Blood War, but in the short term, you could argue that this is a GOOD thing as it keeps them too busy to attack the Upper Planes en masse. Sure, the yugoloths might turn all the armies against the Forces of Good some day, millenium from now. But for a typical PC, what does he care?
The only yugoloth scheme I can recall that had immediate results was the attempt to increase their power through limiting the teleportation abilities of the fiendish races. And I suspect this only came about because the designers needed to make a retcon; otherwise, I'm not sure we would ever seen any major, long-term effect of the yugoloth plans.

Now don't get me wrong. I think there is a place for the scheming manipulator whose ultimate purpose can't be fathomed; and I think the yugoloths fit this role perfectly. I just think that this isn't an active enough role to justify them occupying three planes (I count Carceri since the gehreleth are often depicted as yugoloth-lite).
This is the reason I've personally pushed for a more active role for the barghest in Gehenna (whom I've pictured as somewhat feral mobsters) and for an active understandable goal for the gehreleth.
When the PCs defeat a demon or devil, there is a sense of accomplishment and a sense of evil averted (e.g. we stopped the destructive wave unleashed by the demons, we stopped the evil devil cult that was trying to enslave the populace). Since yugoloth goals are so long-range and the yugoloths always make you feel like they anticipated your actions, it isn't as visceral (e.g. we stopped the yugoloth from stealing an artifact from a devil lord...but what would have happened if he got his paws on it? And why did he seem pleased when the demon prince got so angry about it? Did we foil the yugoloth or did we play into his master plan?)

The role of secretive schemer has been filled. I say we should give the gehreleth (or Apomps) a goal that they are actively striving towards. Something concrete that the PCs can actually understand and fight against. This in turn will give the gehreleth a "personality" and will generate plot ideas. Instead of just telling us "Oh, the gehreleth are evil and plotting evil things; therefore, you should probably want to stop them"; someone should show us some of the evil things they are doing. Someone should create a sense of threat from the gehreleth due to their actions. At least, that's my take on it.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

The best use of gehreleths/demodands was probably in the "Shackled City" adventure path, where a cabal of them conspired to pull a Prime Material city into Carceri. That was a pretty concrete goal, though not a goal of the entire race. 3rd edition interprets them as self-proclaimed wardens for the other inhabitants of Carceri, and I think that fits them. Bitter over their own ancient imprisonment, they've come to see themselves as the "true" race of fiends that the yugoloths usurped and the true manifestations of the plane of Carceri. If they can't escape, no one can; they're personifications of Carceri's continuous betrayal of its inhabitants, traitors to their fellow victims of Carceri's orbs.

The business with gehreleths always having the same population is kind of needlessly limiting and not something the PCs should be able to confirm themselves in any case. There are as many as the campaign needs, and I wouldn't worry about whether or not the population of them is too dense in any one location.

In 2nd edition, gehreleths are portrayed (in Faces of Sigil and Van Richten's Guide to the Fiends) as evil muses, inspiring dark writings in hapless mortal scribes from afar. The shators in particular are psychological, poetic, philosophical, intellectual, literary villains, hideous tempters and secret patrons of the arts.

I think "war robots" is very much the wrong direction for them.

In Carceri they also act as foils for the yugoloths, continually tearing down their Tower of Incarnate Pain and thus delaying the climax of their great scheme by millennia. Wherever the 'loths are active in the Red Prison, the gehreleths may also appear as opposite numbers, competing for territory and resources, like rival gangsters. Adventures on the plane should often involve the PCs dealing with the two fiendish races' competing demands and possibly manipulating them against each other.

As far as the gehreleths are concerned, they were the original race of fiends, created before the yugoloths. They were the dark angels who once ruled the Lower Planes before there were any other inhabitants, and perhaps the most powerful soldiers against the aasimon in the dawn times. The other baernaloths, traitors who were jealous of Apomps' brilliance, wrongfully cast the 'leths from their thrones and made them twisted and broken, hideous corrupted shadows of what they once were, imprisoning them in a plane created specifically to jail them for all eternity. There to stew in their own corruption, and fester, and compose grim poetry and sad songs commemorating their loss.

I also see them as a bit like the Vogons from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, compassionless bureaucrats who fancy themselves as misunderstood artistes. Though unlike the Vogons, their bureaucracy has no real rules; each has unlimited carte blanche to invent and enforce whatever "laws" they can dream up, and contradict themselves as they will. They're twisted parodies of bureaucrats whose only goal is to frustrate the helpless souls under their charge, and their feckless disregard for logic and precedent would drive Guvners insane.

The main difference is that the Vogons are intended humorously, while gehreleth/demodands should be scary, at least at times. They're monstrous Furies, armed with mancatchers or chains and dripping with slime or tar, who exist to torment and punish the treacherous dead. They're mythic guardians of the underworld. But I still think the Vogons are a good start, as far as giving them a ready personality to envision.

As far as racial goals go:

1. To destroy the yugoloths and "regain" their place as the original and dominant fiendish race.
2. Failing that, to spitefully thwart the 'loths at every turn.
3. To act as prison wardens, preventing any of Carceri's victims from escaping the plane.
4. To manipulate the minds and souls of mortals (and, where possible, immortals) to draw more victims into Carceri. Misery loves company. They don't do this by being appealing, as succubi do. They're the part of the artistic soul that revolts everyone, including the artist. They're sin, vice, bad habits, the urge to self-destruct, the urge to betray oneself and all that one holds dear, the cyclical prison of sloth and addiction and violence and frustrated rage.

Apomps is a fairly interesting character; I see it as three baernaloths hideously merged into a single being as punishment for its hubris in creating the gehreleth race, very much inspired by the three-headed Satan frozen in the lowest circle of Hell in Dante's Inferno (who gnaws eternally on the souls of traitors). Apomps urges the gehreleths to work toward the first two goals mentioned above, but is ultimately the least powerful member of the gehreleth race, more surely imprisoned than any of the others (who have been seen on other planes from time to time), and unable to affect anything on its own. The idea of becoming self-proclaimed prison wardens might even be at odds with Apomps' desires and goals; perhaps the 'leths even help keep their master imprisoned.

A plausible end-game for a campaign would be freeing Apomps from the ice so that it can punish the shator mastermind that has been plaguing the PCs. This wouldn't free the gehreleth-god from Carceri, of course, and eventually it would likely become frozen again, Carceri being what it is.

Other good uses for gehreleths (in no particular order):

1. Allying with a shator (or Apomps) in order to thwart the completion of the Tower of Incarnate Pain. For those who don't remember, this was a yugoloth scheme with obvious immediate results; the construction of a third tower that would focus the power of three planes and bring them under the 'loth's control. It's an apocalyptic scenario well suited for the climax of a campaign.
2. Unmasking the gehreleth who has been secretly controlling a villain from behind the scenes, leaving parts of its tainted spirit in books and writings.
3. Allying with the yugoloths in order to thwart the local demodand strongman and escaping Carceri.
4. Outwitting the demodand masterminds who seek to pull Curst or Cauldron or another city into their plane, or helping to liberate the city and put it back where it originated.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

This is why I'm glad these topics get brought up, I get exposed to a number of things I didn't know (e.g. the Shackled City adventure path) or forgot (e.g. the 'loths trying to build three separate towers)

I agree that the 'war robots', while an interesting idea that deserves be someplace (perhaps Acheron), probably wasn't a great fit for Carceri (IMO); but I try not to be too dismissive as I like to see where people run with their ideas.

More than the other fiendish races, gehreleths have the disadvantage in that if they are prisoners then the PCs can easily avoid them by not going to Carceri. (Yes, I know gehreleths can sometimes be summoned and you can sometimes "accidentally" drop the PCs into Carceri; but if the gehreleths are captives, they shouldn't have many "field agents" like the demons and devils do, stirring up trouble in other planes.)

The Shackled City situation where the gehreleths pull in more captives that might need rescuing (or PCs needing to escape) is an interesting way around this problem and a means to get the PCs involved. It also ties in nicely with the theme of the gehreleths' bitter incarceration.

I hadn't picked up on the gehreleths being the face of "artistic evil". Personally, I like this. A group that seeks to promote evil but to do it with style and panache. It is a unique role that I don't believe is being filled by anyone else.
Yugoloths may use subtlety, but ultimately, all they care about is success. In the eyes of a gerheleth, to have a plan go unappreciated (even if successful) is a waste of one's talents.
Since they are the "original face of evil" and since they view themselves as unfairly imprisoned, I could see the gehreleths turning to ideas of proving their "superiority" through the poetic quality of their evil acts. Sure a squad of demons might cause more mindless destruction, but the gehreleths KNOW their superiority is proved by the style and "beauty" of their dark acts. Quality is ALWAYS considered better than quantity to the gehreleths. And if the other fiendish races don't see that, then they are obviously too unintelligent or just jealous.

No one can truly appreciate the art of the gehreleths unless one has suffered like the gehreleths. And the best way to get them to appreciate the gehreleth superiority is to make them suffer like the gehreleths have.

I personally don't see them as bureaucrats but that's a minor quibble.

The only other major point to bring up is the gehreleth opposition to the yugoloths. While it definitely makes sense in terms of their mutual history, I don't seeing it resulting in a lot of adventures my PCs would care about. ("Let me get this straight, we want to go to a Lower Plane and align with one completely evil race in order to temporarily thwart another evil race who will probably hold a grudge? Yeah, and right after that, I'll enlist in the Blood War!")
Admittedly if the PCs get trapped on Carceri, then they may have to deal with one fiendish force or another (or ideally play them off of each other) in order to escape; but if I pulled this situation too many times, I think my players would revolt.
I also think that working with the gehreleths to take down the yugoloths' third tower would be a great epic adventure that has a lot of potential, but I see this as a once in a campaign type situation. So of limited use. [Side note: while the PCs are working against the yugoloths' plan of greater evil consequences, they would still have to remain on guard against being betrayed and imprisoned by their gehreleth "allies"]

I'd also like to hear more about Apomps. The idea of him being a fused entity of three made me think of a warped version of Macbeth's witches or the Graeae of Greek myth - three witch-sisters that share a single eye. If in this vein, Apomps might be a source of great wisdom or prophesy which might inspire people to visit.
In keeping with the spirit of the plane, perhaps it is prophesized that one of the three entities fused together in Apomps can escape but it means either the eternal captivity (or anhilation) of the other two. Or like the Graeae, only one facet can wield an object of power at a time (the shared eye in the case of the Graeae). So each facet of Apomps is conspiring against and betraying the other two in attempts to break free or to gain the object of power.
You have presented conflicting potential roles for the relationship between the gehreleths and Apomps. Do they work for him or do they work against him keeping him imprisoned?
I'm curious what people are favoring

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

ripvanwormer wrote:
There to stew in their own corruption, and fester, and compose grim poetry and sad songs commemorating their loss.

It's funny, as soon as I read this I thought "VOGON" even before I continued on to your next paragraph - wherein you made your case comparing the gehreleths to that foul race. I'd never thought to take the 'leths in that direction, but the more I think of it, the more fitting it seems to be. Well played.

And with that, I'd like to take this time to share some Vogon poetry with the board - generally thought to be the 3rd worst poetry in the universe.

Oh freddled gruntbuggly,
Thy micturations are to me
As plurdled gabbleblotchits
On a lurgid bee
That mordiously hath bitled out
Its earted jurtles
Into a rancid festering [drowned out by moaning and screaming]
Now the jurpling slayjid agrocrustles
Are slurping hagrilly up the axlegrurts
And living glupules frart and slipulate
Like jowling meated liverslime
Groop, I implore thee, my foonting turlingdromes
And hooptiously drangle me
With crinkly bindlewurdles,
Or else I shall rend thee in the gobberwarts with my blurglecruncheon
See if I don't.

Palomides's picture
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factotums
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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

Just thought of this...

If the gehreleths are concerned with "artistic" evil and with imprisonment, might they have some involvement with Ravenloft? True the remote locations (cannonically) aren't a good mesh but otherwise, it seems like an interesting connection (at least to me)

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

For the "middle-evil" planes, we have the yugoloths and the gehreleths (an off-shoot of the yugoloths). Most of the time (IMO), we are told of the yugoloths being evil and they certainly act suspiciously; but because their plans are always so damn mysterious and their methods are so subtly manipulative, I never get much of a feel that these middle-evil races are actually doing anything that produce short-term results.
Planes of Conflict made it quite clear how Yugoloths typically act. They're the ones that cause the rockslides that block the shortcut path to your destination and force you to take the longcut, or send evil minions after you. Or tell the tanar'ri unit that you had an earlier run-in where you are and what you're doing so they'll come and kill you.
Or, they'll give you the directions to the dragon's lair when you wanted directions to the nearest town.

Yes, the yugoloth are manipulating both sides of the Blood War, but in the short term, you could argue that this is a GOOD thing as it keeps them too busy to attack the Upper Planes en masse.
To an extent, yes. However, they're also manipulating things so that nobody-- fiend or celestial, gets an upper hand on chaotic evil or lawful evil-- the 'loths are there to make sure that chaos and law are in balance on the evil side.

Now don't get me wrong. I think there is a place for the scheming manipulator whose ultimate purpose can't be fathomed; and I think the yugoloths fit this role perfectly. I just think that this isn't an active enough role to justify them occupying three planes (I count Carceri since the gehreleth are often depicted as yugoloth-lite).
A 2E Dragon Magazine article also depicted such, but not because of the relation between the two-- rather, the Yugoloths had oppressed and occupied the Gehreleths and took all the good Carcerian land, and IIRC also enslaved many gehreleths and forced them to build some of the Yugoloth strongholds such as the Tower of Incarnate Pain.

I also see them as a bit like the Vogons from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, compassionless bureaucrats who fancy themselves as misunderstood artistes.
Sounds more like the Yugoloths, to me. I remember them being just that in Planes of Conflict (and that their reasons for torture were artistic and philosophical)

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

Hyena of Ice wrote:
[Yugoloths are] the ones that cause the rockslides that block the shortcut...they'll give you the directions to the dragon's lair when you wanted directions to the nearest town.
Yes, is there anything more evil than travel nuisances and bad directions? Definitely worthy of giving them two (and maybe three) planes to control.

Seriously though, we've had this debate before. While I understand the yugoloth role of balancing law and chaos in evil, this theoretical role isn't something that excites any player I've ever met. The PCs I know are much more concerned that they are fighting EVIL than caring much if LE or CE is slightly more dominant.

My point is that yugoloths (at least the way I depict them) usually have complex plans with difficult-to-realize long-range goals. I always try to make the yugoloths true goals almost impossible for the PCs to grasp and I always leave them with a feeling that the yugoloths have played them into doing exactly what the yugoloths wanted.

As I said, there is definitely a place for this. I just feel that other evil races, such as the gehreleths should have a unique role too; and personally, I think "bitter", by itself, isn't enough to make the gehreleths interesting.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

Would anyone object to expanding Carceri?

(It is the prision of the Astral plane; it should be big!)

Carceri literally means "prisions"; Carcere means "prision".

What if:

In Carceri, there existed Carcere Alpha through Carcere Omega.

In each Carcere, there exists the layers Othrys through Agathys.

Most of the Carcere are wetlands (swamps, marshes). At least one carcere is a desert; one is an ocean; one is a jungle; one is mountain ranges and one is a tundra.

What do you think?

It expands the geography and the opportunity for adventure.

Jem
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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

Hmm? There already are an infinite number of orbs, each a collection of nested layers, with terrain varying from mountains (on Othrys) to swamp and down to ice (Agathys). In what way would this expand the choice of geographies?

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

Jem wrote:
Hmm? There already are an infinite number of orbs, each a collection of nested layers, with terrain varying from mountains (on Othrys) to swamp and down to ice (Agathys). In what way would this expand the choice of geographies?

Not everyone plays in that edition of the planes anymore.

Personally, I like some of the newer imagining.

Ironically, the quote when I posted this:

Every few years the Clueless change their view on how the planes fit together. Every few years we prove why we call them Clueless.

— A Greybeard reviewing the third edition of a Prime book on the planes

Jem
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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

Ah. Heh. Well, okay. In that case, I guess I'd just say that your expansion of the new Carceri basically rebuilds the old Carceri. Have fun, however it works. ^_^

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

Another fantastic thread I hadn’t read.

Alright, so:
-Gehreleths are referred to as the summoning stock of the Lower Planes, although little is made of this elsewhere.
-Gehreleths arise spontaneously from the corpses on Carceri-- most often petitioners, presumably. Yugoloths don't, which is interesting, but that's another topic.
-All gehreleths are connected; when one dies, another is formed in its place. This bond seems to be empathic or psionic as much as anything. Farastu mostly use it for remembering grudges against the mortals that summon them.
-The farastu and kelubar gehreleths have the interesting ability of liquefying their bodies, and I daresay that bottling gehreleth mercenaries is something of a cottage industry for the shator, to say nothing of other fiends and villains of the Blood War.

Alright, speculation time. Farastu seep black tar, while kelubar are covered in ebon slime, and shator emit stinking clouds. And Carceri’s layers are full of toxic swamps, acid rainforests, stinging sand, black snow, etcetera.

What if it’s all simply different states of the same substance? What if that black, acidic ooze is the ‘life’ that Apomps created, and of which he was so obscenely proud? Distilled evil, permeating whatever it touched. Corrosive ooze, spreading throughout Carceri. And when that viscous black slime slithered and seeped into the first mortal corpses, it then-- perhaps unexpectedly-- it then sewed up the dismembered pieces, and glued them all together into a mockery of a body, seeping black tar from the gaps in its stolen flesh.

A farastu’s tar holds its body together, even as it pulls the weapons out of its enemies’ hands. The ooze reshapes the corpses that make up a farastu’s body, and when the time is right, it congeals into the shorter, more massive kelubar form. A kelubar’s body is more robust, having compacted its flesh into a more stable state; in this stage, the gehreleth’s body goes into reproductive overdrive, manufacturing sheeting fountains of black slime from its brawny body.

The flabby shator are covered in what seems to be shaggy hair. It’s actually mats of dried fluid, like scabs, shot through with dead veins, gray and brown, knotted and tangled and thick as a mammoth’s wool.

...

As mentioned above, Gehreleths can liquefy their bodies, and they’re routinely summoned to the mortal world, in spite of this rarely coming up in lore outside of their own article. So maybe they’re the fiends that most readily possess humanoids? As in The Exorcist-- I could see a gehreleth acting out like that. Or, at least in terms of their methodology, like the X-Files (http://x-files.wikia.com/wiki/Purity). You don’t see the gehreleths in their natural form very often, because they don’t really have one, not exactly. They're probably easily mistaken for undead, by the clueless.

But liquid fiends are convenient for mixing into potions, or binding into other creatures for use as servants and familiars. If you summon one with its body intact, you've probably made a mistake already.

So Apomps was imprisoned on Carceri, but maybe, like most other victims of ‘loth machinations-- baern or otherwise-- he doesn’t know why, not really. He thinks it’s because he dared to defy the rest of his kind. Most sages who know anything about Apomps, and that’s not very many, believe the same. It sounds plausible: the gehreleths were tainted by Chaos.

But wait. Eternal punishment? For insubordination? Imprisoned with his creations for all time, as their god?

The yugoloths and their creators are many things, but they’re not petty. They're not the Olympian Pantheon. The stakes they play for are much too high for that. They hate gods, they don’t object to killing their own, and what’s more, insubordination alone probably isn't discouraged if it serves their ultimate agenda, whatever that is. The fact that Apomps and the gehreleths still exist either means that the yugoloths can’t wipe them out, or that they don’t want to. It’s possible that the yugoloths consider the gehreleths beneath their notice… but when have the yugoloths ever chosen not to spy and manipulate anyone? Isn’t it more likely that they consider Apomps and his brood to be potentially useful?

Useful, or possibly dangerous. Carceri is *the* prison plane, after all, so perhaps more than simply punishing his arrogance, the baernoloths considered Apomps’ creation to be too dangerous to roam free. Maybe Apomps and the gehreleths don’t know it, maybe the nature of Carceri keeps them from knowing it, but maybe the baernoloths’ concern was that the gehreleths would propagate across the multiverse, the way they have on Carceri. Naturally, it’s not out of concern about the evil the gehreleths would wreak, but rather the fact that it wasn’t happening on the baernoloths’ ancient timetable.

Of course, nowadays the problem has gotten wildly out of control, and Carceri is more effectively controlled by the gehreleths than they probably even realize.

For my campaign, I’m thinking that demodands are a larger category of fiends, of which the gehreleths are only one breed-- possibly the original defining breed. Specifically, a demodand is any fiend that arises from the bodies of the dead on the Lower Planes, rather than forming from more rarified soulstuff. So manes and nupperibo-- in other words, Ancient Baatorians-- are also demodands, and left alone, fed sufficient power of belief, it’s possible that manes and gehreleths could potentially grow into much more powerful forms.

But manes rarely survive that long on the Abyss, and I suspect the gehreleths’ obsession with the number three is as much a check on their power (and a condition of their imprisonment) as anything. It’s only on Baator, oddly enough, that the Ancient Baatorians found the freedom to grow.

Unless they’re just that much better hidden on the other planes, which is certainly possible.

Palomides's picture
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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Carceri

Unsung wrote:
Another fantastic thread I hadn’t read.
Again, I would recommend any of the Planar Renovation Project threads; there have been some great brainstorming on all of them

Unsung wrote:
What if [the forms of gehreleths are] simply different states of the same substance? What if that black, acidic ooze is the ‘life’ that Apomps created, and of which he was so obscenely proud? Distilled evil, permeating whatever it touched. Corrosive ooze, spreading throughout Carceri.
You may not have been implying this, but I kind of like the idea of this "slime" being the basic building block of ALL the evil races of the planes with baatezu, tanari and yugoloths just being the most advanced stabled forms (like the slaad being the most stable embodiments of the chaos-stuff)

Unsung wrote:
The fact that Apomps and the gehreleths still exist either means that the yugoloths can’t wipe them out, or that they don’t want to. It’s possible that the yugoloths consider the gehreleths beneath their notice… but when have the yugoloths ever chosen not to spy and manipulate anyone? Isn’t it more likely that they consider Apomps and his brood to be potentially useful?
I sort of took the reverse approach. I like the idea that Apomps had some vision of the future (I tied his three-fold nature to various phophesizing triads like Macbeth's witches) and that he created the gehreleths for some purpose in the future but he refused to explain himself to his co-horts so they punished him (there is nothing a yugoloth hates more than not knowing a secret). The yugoloths hate the reason for the gehreleth's creation being secret from them but they don't feel secure enough to wipe them out just in case Apomps had some grand plan to further the cause of evil

I mention my ideas just to brainstorm not to dismiss your (or anyone else's) so please continue with your ideas

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