Planar Renovation Project: Acheron

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Palomides's picture
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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Acheron

ripvanwormer wrote:
Ocanthus is spent memories.

Could you please elaborate? This is an evocative statement but I don't know what you are really going for

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Acheron

Frozen memories, stolen by the River Styx.

Jem
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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Acheron

Acheron is "behind the lines" of the Blood War, as would be Pandemonium. What if there's something there which the devils are protecting from demons? Perhaps a site or immobile artifact crucial to the powers of law, which demons would like to destroy or use, but can't be accessed except from Baator or Mechanus. Or, to turn this into a minor theme rather than a single site, more than one thing: fallen or corrupted sites and artifacts of law, now tainted with evil, which would be attractive to demons should they be able to take them, or hold them with sufficient forces. (Obviously, similar objects might exist on Pandemonium, likely in the fourth layer.)

And these are among the few sites in the Multiverse where devils and lawful celestials can be found working together: both are interested in protecting the sites, the celestials to deny fiends of any sort a resource and the devils to keep demons particularly from stealing an advance in the Blood War, as well as protecting a rear exposure. Both sides have learned that any but the most subtle attempts at corrupting or redeeming the other side's troops will be met with a formal protest and swift reassignment (technically a mark of shame, though usually a slap on the wrist at worst). Leadership is double-headed, with a ranking celestial and devil on site. Exceedingly complex standing orders specify under what conditions a soldier of either side may refuse an order from the superior not of its kind. For the most part, the leaders assigned by the two hierarchies are among the most pragmatic of their races, focusing strictly on the mission and avoiding the sort of proselytizing that would raise intra-unit tensions.

The Dark Left Hand of Primus: One example of such a site is this gear from Mechanus, over a mile across, which can be found in Acheron. Swathed in a deep magical darkness that restricts any light spells to a single 5 foot square, it turns due to the magnetic pull of a gear that emerges from a portal to Mechanus, orbits it once, and vanishes back into the portal, on a regular schedule known to the troops that protect the site. The gear has a powerful evil aura. Inscribed in tiny print and hundreds of languages across the gear are pieces of advice and strategies for ruling without mercy, for discipline without rest, for manipulating any manner of court or king or peasant. No one living a mere hundred years could ever read it all. To read even a significant part requires considerable effort and knowledge of several languages, but various parts enhance various skills like Bluff, Sense Motive, Knowledge (Law), Diplomacy, Appraise, and the like significantly. However, every use of this gift requires a Will roll, with the enhanced skill as the DC, to prevent one's alignment from shifting one step on either axis toward lawful evil.

It is widely believed, among those who know of this site, that the Dark Left Hand of Primus in some way mediates the use of law for evil ends. Even celestials fear what might happen if demons managed to destroy it or taint it with chaos. The two garrisons on this gear are on opposite sides of it, and rarely speak to each other except between the two commanders and occasional, strictly formal communications between quartermaster officers.

-----

A few similar items, uplifted by being touched with goodness, can be found on Arcadia, but the inherent antipathy of that plane to evil outsiders, its distance from the Abyss, and the defenses of the natives are sufficient to hold off demonic intrusion attempts there. However, even if diabolic help would be useful at a given site, the natives would likely refuse it. Wisdom in avoiding entanglements with devils? Or foolhardy, paranoid bigoted stubbornness? Ask the Arcadians and the devils, and get two different answers.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Acheron

Define, "spent Magic".

By the way I like the some layers are older than others thing... But I get the exact opposite feeling from them then Rip gets. I think first layer is the present, and other layers are going farther and farther into the future. The graybeards themselves are probably not in agreement over this
First layer: The present day, when the wars are fought and lives are destroyed over petty concerns, without a moment's consideration for the future.
Second layer: The near future: War is over but the countless weapons of war that were used to wage it remain. The Maugs, remnants of a past or future war, their creators long lost, toil around the macabre museum of death and destruction. They are either oblivious to their own insignificance; or perhaps painfully aware of it, and try to wage wars simply to find a meaning for existing. Like all other tools of war that fill the layer, they wait for others to use them in their of battles.
Third layer: The distant future: With time, even the memory of wars become fuzzy and the memory becomes lore becomes legend; even the geography changes with the passage of time. The cubes, after ages of countless crashes, lose their distinct edges and become rounder. Even the Maug have no strong presence here, and one feels as though the entire multiverse, not just the layer, became more desolate. Still, some truly driven berks come here, to search under the solids, where long lost knowledge is said to be found in abundance.
Fourth Layer: Far future: A time when even the legends are forgotten. A time so far into the future that the River Styx itself has frozen, and the pulverized remnants of the cubes are buried under an infinite wall of ice. The sense of emptiness in the previous layers are amplified, to the point where a visitor would welcome the presence of even the cruel bladelings. While there is power to be excavated in the second layer. and there is knowledge to be uncovered under the third layer. There are only memories in Ocanthus, trapped in river Styx, but in this way, preserved.

so, we can read the same thing from two perspectives. both is interesting and it would be best to let pcs decide

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Acheron

I wasn't seeing things in this way; but as I have no strong vision for some of these layers; I'm willing to run with your ideas.

So are the frozen memories of the fourth layer actually the strong emotional memories of long-forgotten wars? So that if such memories "dethaw" (possibly from the heat of a visitor), then it releases a wave of intense hate/sense of duty to serve/etc. that compels the visitor to act on them (i.e. to pick up arms and march into battle with the probably long-dead foe - or a person similarly afflicted with the memories of that foe?)
Perhaps the flying "razors" are these emotions that never froze (or never refroze once released from the ice)

Maybe when the Styx steals memories from the warriors of Acheron (or maybe each time a petitioner "dies" in combat, the plane itself steals the emotions or the some of the emotion "drains off" into the Styx), it steals the emotional component but it leaves the sense of duty. So over the eons, the petitioners feel less and less of an emotional connection to the battles they fight; but the last layer gains more and more anger and emotional components of war, waiting to be released and overwhelm a visitor who is foolish enough to let them loose

So following this logic, the first layer can be seen as the field of combat and the other three can be seen as symbolic of the wastelands created by war:
-junkyard of the physical objects of war
-junkyard of the intellectual and artistic (my addition) works that were destroyed by the ravages of war. This layer is mostly barren because while people can find hints of the intellectual greatness that was lost, it can never truly be regained
[Think of it as the Library of Alexandria after being destroyed in combat. One can sift through the ashes and occassionally find a fragment of brilliant poetry or intellectual insight. But such a fragment offers nothing more than a bitter hint or suggestion of the greatness of complete work that was lost.]
-junkyard of the passions of war (as a war drags on, the intense emotions felt at the beginning are gone and replaced with a drudging sense of duty - where did the strong emotions go?)

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Acheron

Evil wrote:
Define, "spent Magic".

I'd fill Tintabulus with spellhaunts/living spells.

Quote:
so, we can read the same thing from two perspectives. both is interesting and it would be best to let pcs decide

Indeed, it could be ambiguous. Is this the past or the future? Or are they one and the same? Perhaps time is cyclical.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Acheron

Palomides, the Library of Alexandria is such a good example best resemblance I can think of. You've brought a great angle to it. Just how many other centers of learning were destroyed by war? I will give another example:
Symmerians invented writing. Their empire was destroyed by ravages of war, and much of their knowledge was lost, though some, through myths, like the Tempest, remained and laid the foundations for other civilizations or religions. They were rediscovered in the 19th century, and their language is successfully deciphered, their archeological sites excavated. Recently, in the Iraq war, the Baghdad National Museum was raided and many invaluable relics from that era were lost, damaged or destroyed. Is it a curse or an example of the cyclical nature of time?
While the PCs will decide that, I think we have found a great source of inspiration for this layer.

As for frozen memories, I don't think they are necessarily memories of war. In general these are the memories of people who fell into Styx. I got this idea that the river Styx ends ep frozen here. Any way, this would mean the occasional digger could be encountered in the layer, trying to dig up his own memories or he could be a Sensate agent.

A use for these Styx ice can be that, through complex rituals of course, they may provide a boost of experience. They essentialy transfer the memories of an individual who fell into the Styx to another.

Even when I wrote this though, I thought that Styx doesn't provide memories, it drains them, so a more logical approach would be to say that Sensates need Styx ice to produce memory stones.
Another thing is of course, Styx ice would be used to make level drain+cold damage weapons.

All in all, I think people would come to Ocanthus, if it hadn't been so in such a hard to reach location so damn inhospitable.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Acheron

Evil wrote:
As for frozen memories, I don't think they are necessarily memories of war. In general these are the memories of people who fell into Styx. I got this idea that the river Styx ends ep frozen here. Any way, this would mean the occasional digger could be encountered in the layer, trying to dig up his own memories or he could be a Sensate agent.

While this provides a good motivation for a person to visit this plane, how do you see tying this into the general theme of the plane? Why are the bladelings found here?
This isn't meant as a major criticism; I'm just trying to tie up the loose ends.

My suggestion of making the frozen memories tie back to the passions of war fits in a little better with the theme (and might weakly tie into the bladelings intensities); but it alters the known nature of the Styx and does NOT provide a motivation to visit. So I don't really think mine is better.

Does anyone have some suggestions that can pull this together?

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Acheron

Why are the bladelings found here?

I thought the 3E MMII was quite clear on why-- the Bladelings were planeshifted to the 2nd cube (the technological trash heap of the multiverse) from a prime world where they were created. The plane was not inhospitable for them, so they remained here.
It's that simple.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Acheron

But why the shift from the 2nd to the 4th?
[I realize there is the petrification problem on the 2nd - but ideally (and perhaps impossibly) I'd like it if there is some sub-theme to the 4th layer that we can tie in]

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Acheron

^^Probably due to their xenophobia. They don't like non-natives entering THEIR territory (cube).
Tintibulus is a tad too inviting to outsiders, despite its inhospitable environment.
Ocanthus OTOH has very little of interest to outsiders, and is a helluva lot harder to reach (and is even less hospitable than Tintibulus) Please note that any Bladeling info from Planar Handbook does not apply here since that book refers primarily to Planewalking Bladelings.

Let me look at the MMII article again here...

A quote:

Bladelings are superstitious and xenophobic creatures, so it’s no surprise that they abhor intrusions into their home territory. (Of course, as residents of Ocanthus, they rarely have visitors.)

Planewalking and wandering bladelings tend to lack this xenophobia, but still don't trust people they don't know (they're probably more likely to be lawful neutral than lawful evil).

Oh, sorry, I got their origin mixed up with another Acheronian creature. MMII states that they were originally native to Baator, Gehenna, or "some unknown metal-based plane", so I suppose you could add the Quasielemental Plane of Mineral to the list of possible planes. Otherwise, "some unknown metal-based plane" would presumably refer to an ethereal demiplane.

Their automatic language is common, and additional language (if INT is high enough) is infernal.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Acheron

Well going strictly from the brief entry for the Planes of law,
we know that there is a "bottom" to the Ocanthus. This bottom, almost infinetely deep inside layer, and somehow marks the end of the layer and the plane.*
There are storms of flying black ice, razor sharp, and by that I mean they are treated like Vorpal weapons! the size of the ice shards vary; some very tiny, like blades, some large, city size blocks of ice that don't easly break down even if you walk over them.
Graybeards don't know where this black ice comes from; but one theory is that this is the end of styx. Further, the "bottom" of the layer, an infinete and virtually impenetrable barrier, is said to be from the same black ice. However, even if somebody went that far, it is pretty unlikely that he returned.
There is a wizard, Lysander, who claims that the infinite ice wall at the bottom is where all the memories ever trapped by Styx end up, end they can be unlocked & absorbed by a simple "knock" spell. It is upto the players to believe him, but he claims he went to the bottom AND back, so he is supposed to be a super powerful mage indeed.
Zoronor itself is a city surrounded by / built inside a large spherical wooden structure. The wooden outer layer protects it from the shards, though soetimes it is breached. After many years the entire outer perimeter of the sphere is full of razor sharp black ice shards, resembling a forest, and also creating a secondary defensive line against more ice storms or other attackers.

For the 3rd layer, tintibulus, the only mention of it being good for mages that I can find is: "it has no native life, but the emptiness of the layer often attracts magical researchers". What a let down. I think going with our idea (making it a place where there is knowledge to be uncovered inside the blocks, and/or a place where intelligence is boosted for a physical price) is much better.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Acheron

There's slightly more info in the 3E Manual of the Planes.

First of all, it states that odd-sided solids outnumber six-sided cubes. The solids are described thusly:

made of gray volcanic stone, each coated with a layer of ashen dust to a depth of several inches (and in some places several feet or more).

Collisions of said solids occur continuously and cause a deafening "ringing" throughout the cube.

It mentions nothing about magical experiments or being of interest to mages.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Acheron

Bump

Before I let this thread die and before a new PRP project begins, I was just hoping that someone else could sum up what the general consensus was (if there was one). I may not be seeing the forest through the trees; but while I heard a lot of interesting ideas, I didn't get the impression that there had been a collective agreement on this renovation (especially the last two layers).

I know that we'll never have 100% agreement but was there at least a partial collective agreement? We seem to have come together somewhat on Arcadia, Bytopia, and to a lesser degee Gehenna.
Does someone want to try to tie the comments on Acheron together?

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Acheron

The main consensus thus far:

GENERAL THEME
Acheron is blind conformity instead of harmony (like Arcadia is). It represents the evil side of loyalty, the evil side of tradition, etc.
This is the plane for soldiers who died in pointless wars, who died unfulfilled deaths.
This is the plane for the soldier who could not adapt to peacetime; not all soldiers with PTSD and maladaption end up here; just the ones who ended up doing evil things because of it.
This is the plane for those who abandoned their convictions in the name of loyalty (this is what sets it apart from Baator; the Baatezu aren't truly loyal to their masters, they simply follow the rules and use them to their advantage. Such is also the case for most Baatezu petitioners. Acheron is for the soldier who kills his own family *despite this being the 2nd to last thing he wants to do* because his master demands it of him.)
This is also the plane for blind, obstinate tradition.
The soldiers who knowingly fight in a war that has been going on for centuries, a war for which the two sides have forgotten the original reason for, and do it simply out of ancestral reverence or 'tradition', will end up here.
This plane also embodies xenophobia-- another evil side of traditionalism.
It embodies traditionalism to the point of self destruction.

Also, each cube represents some stage of war.

The first layer represents hot war.
The second layer represents the aftermath of war (junkyard of war machines)
The third layer represents the regression of society, and the 'ruin' and 'despair' of war.
The fourth layer represents...
Well, the consensus hasn't been reached on the 4th (or 3rd layer for that matter), but I would say that the fourth layer represents oblivion/genocide. The lost memories of the Styx tie in quite well with this-- once genocide is complete, the lost race is only a 'memory', and eventually even that memory will be lost. Obviously the Bladelings on the 4th layer do not fit this theme, however.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Acheron

I still think the third layer best represents a Cold War mentality best. Societies closing their borders, where state sponsored propaganda extols the horrors of The Great Enemy and any outsider is scrutinized as being a potential spy for one of the enemy states.

I wonder if the fourth layer might sort of represent all of the distilled pain, anguish and misery experienced on the first three layers. For the Arcadia revision (in my mind at least), as petitioners grew more and more harmonious, they ascended to the next layer. I could easily see how the blades of Ocanthus might somehow be ascended petitioners, who strike out at any and all who dare to trespass in Ocanthus.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Acheron

Hyena of Ice wrote:
Obviously the Bladelings on the 4th layer do not fit this theme, however.

They sort of do. Their tiefling ancestors fled to Ocanthus because of persecution, possibly attempted genocide, on other planes.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Acheron

I still think the third layer best represents a Cold War mentality best. Societies closing their borders, where state sponsored propaganda extols the horrors of The Great Enemy and any outsider is scrutinized as being a potential spy for one of the enemy states.

Not really. Going by the descriptions (e.g. the layer is made of ash and rock instead of metal), I would say this layer represents decay from war specifically.
...Actually, I guess Cold War does fit that theme, as well. So I guess it's just better to state that the third layer represents decay from war in general. Decay by folly (as indicated by the cubes on this cube constantly smashing together until they're nothing but ash), decay of civilization, decay of knowledge/technology, etc.

The 4th layer represents oblivion from war.

So we have:

1st cube: active/physical war
2nd cube: the spoils of war/immediate aftermath/physical byproducts of war
3rd cube: decay from war (cold war, social decay, decay of population numbers, and self-destructive tradition)
4th cube: oblivion from war (genocide, memories)

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Acheron

The physical features of the plane are:
- First layer: War, war and more war on the cubes; Goblin and Orc pantheons on their separate cubes, Mercykiller city of Vorkehan, walking-living castles, armies belonging to related deities, Orcish and goblinoid deities and rogue armies, (belonging to a warlord who answers no one), a number of custom cubes. Very high Rakshasa, their deity Ravanna supposedly resides here.
- Second Layer: Cubes; mines with old and future weapons, mostly discarded, lost or disfunctional. Lots of traffic from the first layer and other places, looking for new usable weapons. Maugs and their secretive cities, where the masters of their race create new Maugs. Rakshasa influence unknown.
- Third layer: Different shaped volcanic stone solids. No natives and seemingly desrted plane, but the constant crash of cubes make a lot of noise. Wizards are drawn to the layer, mostly because its empty and they can do research undisturbed. It is said there are many left over libraries from these wizards. the plane sees archeologists, raiders and excavators in search of hidden and forgotten knowledge, said to be inside vaults, silos, libraries within the solids. The solid's constant crashes and distinct shapes also draw some geometricians and mathematicians, even diviners. Rakshasa influence: Major.
- Fourth Layer: vorpal black ice storm. Nearly empty, except the bladeling city, Zoronor. There is a "bottom", an infinite block of black ice, which sees some traffic from Sensates, Styx survivors and others looking for useful memories. Wee Jas has a new realm on the Ice block. Rakshasa Influence unknown.

Jem
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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Acheron

Thread's mostly over, and this isn't really a renovation idea, but I figured this would be a good place to post it.

Imagine a primitive prime, going to an early version of Mechanus. Instead of machinery and gears, which he would hardly understand as being artificial, orderly things, perhaps he sees stark geometric shapes of stone and crystal, only this is in regular, sharp shapes, like rock crystals, like the edges of his best axe. Could some mighty hand have made this place, where cubes and pyramids and more faceted shapes slide in stately procession down straight lines, slipping into niches next to one another with perfect precision? How wonderfully... what could the word be... how wonderfully put together, how wonderfully set just so, there and there!

And what does he see when he goes to Acheron, tainted by evil? Perhaps a great, flat plain of similar white stone, unending and unyielding, freezing cold, crisscrossed with great black glaciers, no color or mercy anywhere. The glaciers grind out valleys and sometimes spray sharp black shards into the heavy, forgetful air. And far, far above, to a very well-sighted eye, the pristine shapes turn.

But, a little later, something wrong is introduced into the plane of perfect order. The shapes knock out of alignment. They crash, and with mighty momentum spin off into the vast void. Above the white stone plain, now nearly drowning in black ice, the shapes appear, tumbling along, sometimes colliding. Shards of rock join the sprays of ice, forming a thick layer of whirling blades and sharp points. Meanwhile, the cast off shapes, no longer in a place of unending order, begin to decay, touched ever so slightly by chaos. They begin to rust and flake.

Mechanus renews itself. The cubes become metal. They run on tracks, whipping along under the same forces that turn the stars around a Prime. But to these, too, decay is introduced, and the cubes fall. Acheron gains another, newer layer, its older layers pushed down, the aura of time and fossilization becoming intense. The black glaciers are now the entire surface of its original layer. On the first layer, metal cubes now spin.

But the natives of Mechanus are ready, and it renews again, this time with gears turned on rods, the gear spirits defending the places of the workings of the cosmos. They will find the perfect defense against entropy. If not this version, they are doing the research to find a better version. Perhaps chained lightning, or guided light. Mechanus is the place of order, so the hands and minds that belong to the place put it in order. That is their place.

And below, hungry, Acheron waits for its next layer.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Acheron

Interesting. So when Mechanus evolves into its next form (perhaps steampunk hydraulics, or an electronic computer grid); would a new layer of Acheron form with cogs floating about randomly (definitely not intermeshed so tightly as on Mechanus)?

I had a passing thought that I deemed too weird to use; but it might be funny to have some barmy propose:
The cubes of Acheron are really dead (or dormant) duodrones (those are the cubic modrons, right?). Much like Baator and the Abyss (and other planes?) had an original species that was later surplanted, perhaps these lumbering gargantuan duodrones were the equivalent of the "proginator giants" of the modrons.

Jem
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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Acheron

Yep, presumably if this layer of Mechanus is less orderly than something else the modrons come up with, or if fiends can taint it sufficiently (requiring it to be replaced), then the gears will drop off to become the top layer of Acheron. I could certainly see the war machines making excellent use of all those teeth.

Duodrones are rectangular prisms, like two cubes stuck together. Regular cubes are quadrones, and for some reason are the shape that modrons all take when they go rogue. (Possibly even hierarch modrons? Not sure.) If the progenitors of modrons were all giant cubes, then reverting to smaller versions of their primitive forms would make sense.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Acheron

Chant has it there are two types of crashing sounds that echo throughout Acheron. The first is the one that we've all heard about, made by the crashing of those iron cubes into one another. They're a right misery to hear and'll leave a basher barmy for a while if they're too close.

But there's a second sort that doesn't get talked about. It's a sound that doesn't have an obvious source on the plane. The way I hear it, it starts off as a sort of low rumble that a cutter can feel more than hear. And it doesn't matter where you might find yourself on Acheron. From the battlefields of Avalas, down all the way to Ocanthus, you can feel it, like a thrumming. Like something terrible is on its way. Preceding that rumble, like a shallow earthquake before the main one strikes, are waves upon waves of petitioners, engaged in battle against one another. As more and more appear, the sound grows and grows until it drowns out all other sound. As it reaches a crescendo, the layers seem to explode. On Avalas, cubes seem to appear from nowhere and start slamming into one another with more vigor and more randomness than before. On Thuldanin, ruins and debris start to rain down, crushing all who are unfortunate enough to be caught out unprotected. Not sure what happens on Tintibulus, but I do know that bladestorms sweep across Ocanthus during the cacophony.

The dark of that second sound? As I understand it, sometimes some of those Prime worlds get it in their heads to dabble in terrible magic in an effort to get a leg up on their enemies. Magic capable of ending their world. And some of them? They believe their own hubris and the justness of their cause and actually use their magic to destroy their enemies. And that sound is the echoes of that magic being released.

------------------

Ok sure, that's kinda cheesy, but I hope it was interesting to read at least.

I had an idea while thinking about Acheron at work today. Thinking about the crashing, clanging sounds that supposedly echo throughout the entire plane (or at least throughout any particular layer), and this idea about how Acheron is supposed to be a sort of embodiment of tyrannical warfare, and how a consequence of prolonged cold warfare usually ends up with the warring nations having an arsenal of world destroying weapons/magic pointed at each other. Well, I figure, what happens when one side decides to pull the trigger? There's going to be some sort of effect that echoes back on the planes, and all of those artifacts of war on Thuldanin have to come from somewhere, right?

So, the sound that would echo across the layers would actually be the sound of the weapon/magic (or maybe even the resounding voice of some super-creature that was harnessed) unleashed on the Prime.

Jem
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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Acheron

Having Acheron resound with those types of world-shaking magics that are often referenced in the backstory (or threatened bad ending) of fiction and RPGs definitely makes sense to me. Maye have them generate monsters of legend that run around Acheron, the spirit of that particular spell -- or the tortured petitioner of a world-soul, bodily slain in a way that most planets never are, by the unforeseen consequences of their inhabitants' warfare.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Acheron

Thinking on it further, the magic/weapon/creature used might not even have to be on the scale of world-shaking. It would have to be just enough to create a local cataclysm (the Mournlands from Eberron spring to mind). I also like the idea of a living spell manifesting or some sort of physical representation of the creature/weapon used appearing on Tintibulus. It gives folks who seek power a reason to settle on the layer, in that they'll hunt, study and research a specific manifestation.

Just going to do a dump of all of the ideas that have been percolating in my head and see if anything sticks.

I feel like we should expand on the nature of the sounds that echo throughout Acheron. I mean, they're ever-present, but they're really nothing more than set dressing. It seems like there could/should be something more to it than just that. Correct me if I'm wrong or forgetting something.

I also have this idea for a region in Ocanthus where the blades, when rung like a bell or struck like deflecting a blade, sound out rousing speeches and oratories for war. I think it works with the idea of the layer being spent memories. I could also see Ocanthus as a place where one could see the original causes for a given war being played out in the reflections of a particular shard. I mean, in canon, the layer is supposedly the final resting place of the Styx. I think setting the place up as being full of disjointed half-forgotten memories, and having them all play out in a sort of dream-like fashion could be really interesting.

Thoughts on how the layers might structure themselves on Acheron:

For the first two, rather than having them be discreet layers that you would have to move between, I favor the shift occurring based on your proximity to an active battlefield. If you seek out your enemies or just seek out any sort of battle to fight in, then you would find yourself shifting into the first layer. Fleeing from combat moves you into the second layer. This puts the onus on the individual or group to always be seeking out somebody to fight, or risk turning into stone and merging with a cube on the second layer.

Between the second and third, in addition to moving away from battle, one would move away from the scarred landscape left behind by warfare. I see this as a sort of refugee march mentality. You're seeking out a safer place, and you do that by moving as far as you can away from war. This sets up an interesting dynamic where, if a group of refugees trying to flee from the battlefront encounters any sort of hostility, they'll end up back on the first layer. What I see happening is that the individuals inclined towards fighting in any given refugee group eventually get picked off, and the only people who are left are the poor sods who are so broken by the experience that they'll do anything to ensure they're safe. And those folks who maintain that shred of hope while on the second layer are the ones who'll eventually end up merged with it; Acheron has no need for people like that.

These groups eventually find their way to the third layer, with its scattered outposts and towers and such, and they're ready and willing to submit themselves to whoever is in charge, just to ensure that they don't have go back to the battlefront.

Getting to Ocanthus itself might be a bit of dark.

Ok, that's it for now. I'm really starting to build up a good idea of what Acheron might behave like if I were to ever place anything there.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Acheron

Wicke-
I like your suggestions for the first two layers, with a (perhaps unintentional) parallel with the re-modelled layers of Arcadia (conflct and residence/refuge); but I'm not sold on the remaining two
That isn't meant as a huge criticism as I think those last two layers have been the big stumbling block for everyone who has tried to contribute to this thread.

I think a number of people have come up with solutions that they like for their individual interpretations of the plane; but I don't think any of them have garnered much support from the community at large

Looking over the various suggestions, I think one problem is that the soul-crushing tedium of pointless warfare doesn't lend itself easily to four different degrees of intensity.
With that in mind, I think it might be better to view the layers as two aspects of two aspects.
So for the first two layers:
1 - active physical warfare
2 – after-effects of physical war and/or temporary refuge from physical war

So for the next two layers:
3 - active magical warfare or Cold War plotting
4 - I'm spit-balling a new idea here:
perhaps a layer of the lingering mental after-effects of warfare (lingering resentments, fear of "outsiders", racial/group prejudices - embodied in the bitterness of the bladelings). Following this logic, this would be a layer of those torn apart, not by the physical toils of war, but by the mental stresses of war (imagine a people that had to endure years of the stress experienced at the height of the Cuban Missile Crisis). They are so distrustful, fearful and paranoid that they can't function as a constructive society anymore. They want to believe in something but are so stressed about their own safety that they can't believe in anything.

So layers 1 and 3 are sort of mirrors; either being physical vs. cerebral combat or active conflict vs. scheming conflict (in thsi example, layer 3 would be the "residential" layer of the residents)
While layers 2 and 4 are the devestating results of layers 1 and 3

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Acheron

Perhaps the flying shards of really sharp ice, is shrapnel from a really large violent explosion from a conflict in the distant past.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Acheron

The parallel was completely unintentional, and having that pointed out makes me like it all the more. And don't worry about criticizing anything I come up with. I'm just trying to generate ideas and spark ideas for others.

Going through and rereading the thread to see what and where we've gone in trying to describe Tintibulus. We've run through the whole gamut, but some things really stand out (in no particular order):

- Cold War styled mentality, marked by xenophobia in what little population exists on the layer.
- Magical research. The only major thematic thing mentioned in canon, and it plays into the xenophobia: Don't trust the outsiders, they're only here to steal our knowledge.
- Testing ground for new spells/weapons. Again, makes sense with the research.
- Ancient/forgotten libraries and the remains of spent magic. Like with Thuldanin and the broken weapons of war scattered throughout the layer, one can find libraries that contain lost and forgotten lore, and one could find the quasi-living remains of spent magic.
- Rakshasas. They may very well maintain a strong and influential presence on this layer, but remain hidden behind their grand illusions (which fits in with the overall magical atmosphere of the layer).
- Intelligence boost. I could easily see this extending to a Charisma boost as well. I'd like to tie the ability to boost stats in with some concept of draining away a population somehow, as I think it fits in with the idea of tyrannical control of a population.

Is there anything else? To me at least, that looks like it has some adventuring potential.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Acheron

Personally, I agree that the 3rd layer/Tintibulus is best interpreted as plane of some sort of subdued (compared to the conflict of the 1st layer) mental conflict between several forces.
Whether these are competing mages (or factions or national groups lead by mages), rakshasas, etc. is up to each DM. But I think the layer should be populated with groups who are try to secretly try to outmaneuver and gain domination over each other in an extremely tense Cold War situation.
The groups may be mostly in hiding - to explain the official isolation of the layer. And usually things appear quiet to a visitor, but every so often there are periods of INTENSE magical combat on this layer that leave a lot of desolations, living spells, etc. All the devastation associated with a more cerebral/magical type of conflict.
As Wicke said, this seems like it has a great deal of potential to me
[Personally, I might add that the mage-generals get the INT boost and have some way to have the drain of the layer affect his underlings instead of himself - something that the rulers keep secret. In fact, the generals might bind his underlings closer by claiming the drain is due to a rival mage-general and that the only way the underlings can regain their health is if they can defeat the opponent. It's a lie; but it serves the needs of the mage-generals]

That leaves the 4th layer/Ocanthus.
Offically, all we know is that it is a mostly desolate layer that is the home of the bladelings and is filled with flying razors of black ice.
Officially, bladelings are described as superstitious, xenophobic, and territorial. It is implied that they are combative and heirarchal (they are lawful, after all)

Looking at all the possible suggestions, the best comprehensive solution (IMO) is to have this as some sort of layer of the emotional fallout of intense warfare. Sort of a "junkyard" of passions from war (hatred, anger, grief, loss, etc.) Personally, I see the flying shards of this layer (which are implied to be from the Styx - i.e. memories) to be fragments of these intense emotions that remain even though the targets/subjects of these emotions are long destroyed. They are still ice since the originators and the targets of the emotions are long gone (i.e. ice = mostly forgotten); but the emotions are still volitile enough to keep them animated (flying about) and allow them to harm those who encounter them unshielded

Taking the lead from Jem's suggestion that this is layer might be the earliest (or one of the earliest) manifestations of Mechanus. Further imagine that this layer has ties back to the proto-Mechanus that existed in the first war of Law vs. Chaos
-There is speculation that this layer has a "bottom" covered with the icy memories from the primordial Styx. Imagine that these are the memories of servants of Law (and maybe those of Chaos) that fought in this conflict
[Perhaps the Styx is a by product of some attempt by the forces of Law to forever preserve their memories/convictions; or maybe the Styx was created to remove these memories/emotions - as the plane (or multiverse) would have been overrun with these destructive shards of unfiltered emotion, if they had been left alone]

-The lawful armies in this conflict were supposed to only be concerned with "the Law" but the tragedies of war couldn't help but produce some negative emotions that still faintly permeate the layer today. These range from hatred of one's foes (now seen in the sensations of racial hatred or genocidal thoughts), loss (now seen in the sense of oblivion and "emptiness" on this layer), and fear (now seen in the xenophobia of the bladelings). Maybe it was, in part, this emotional "pollution" that caused a new incarnation of Mechanus to form

-It might even be possible to tie in Evil's suggestion of the chronotyrm (time-travelers) as maybe they were created by the first Lords of Law to traverse time in some effort to gain the information or needed resources to ultimately win the battle (or at least to keep the forces of Chaos from forever engulfing Law). Or maybe they are seeking the memories of the beings of pure Law at a point in the future where they are less intense (i.e. frozen and settled at the bottom of the layer) rather than still passionately volitile (i.e. flying about)

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Acheron

Palomides wrote:
The groups may be mostly in hiding - to explain the official isolation of the layer. And usually things appear quiet to a visitor, but every so often there are periods of INTENSE magical combat on this layer that leave a lot of desolations, living spells, etc. All the devastation associated with a more cerebral/magical type of conflict.

I like having them in hiding. It preserves the overall feel of the layer as being vacant.

I have this vision of, rather than direct mage against mage battles, mage-generals lobbing spells from hundreds of miles away at their target, echoing an idea of having missiles launched or some such. When you see a streak in the skies of Tintibulus, you know it's something dread and terrible, and you don't want to be anywhere nearby when it strikes. Almost none of these attacks would be effective though, since the target would likewise have set up spectacular defenses. But the left-over magics would lead to all sorts of fallout and desolation.

Quote:
[Personally, I might add that the mage-generals get the INT boost and have some way to have the drain of the layer affect his underlings instead of himself - something that the rulers keep secret. In fact, the generals might bind his underlings closer by claiming the drain is due to a rival mage-general and that the only way the underlings can regain their health is if they can defeat the opponent. It's a lie; but it serves the needs of the mage-generals]

I really like calling them mage-generals. I could easily see them having agents present on the first two layers, keeping an eye open for outstanding soldiers/mages/whatever that they could tap and send back to their leader (field promotions). Maybe even have them occasionally recruit an army for special mission against "the enemy", or round up a group of refugees from the second layer to provide fodder for draining.

Another possible idea for the boost: Maybe instead of just a stat boost, it can be used to empower spells and such. In 3x terms, maybe a certain amount of points drained grants access to various metamagic feats. Or even allowing duplicate feats to stack up on a single spell.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Acheron

Palomides wrote:
That leaves the 4th layer/Ocanthus.

I can't help but think about how, in some of the other Outer Planes, the top/bottom layer is sort of the ideals of that plane realized. Menasus on Arcadia represented that plane's ideal of a utopian society before it slipped into Mechanus. The seventh layer of Mount Celestia likewise is an idealized heaven. I'm really coming to think of Ocanthus as possibly representative of something more primal and ideal than just warfare.

So, when you distill it down, what is the essence of warfare? Why do wars happen? Maybe a desire for control and for resources. Maybe just hatred of anybody outside of the tribe. Maybe the love of battle and of fighting (though that seems more Ysgardian). How does Ocanthus represent that sort of distillation? Or should it?

Maybe there's a better track I could take in approaching the layer, but that thought has been bothering me for a while.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Acheron

Wicke wrote:
Palomides wrote:
That leaves the 4th layer/Ocanthus.

I can't help but think about how, in some of the other Outer Planes, the top/bottom layer is sort of the ideals of that plane realized. Menasus on Arcadia represented that plane's ideal of a utopian society before it slipped into Mechanus. The seventh layer of Mount Celestia likewise is an idealized heaven. I'm really coming to think of Ocanthus as possibly representative of something more primal and ideal than just warfare.

So, when you distill it down, what is the essence of warfare? Why do wars happen? Maybe a desire for control and for resources. Maybe just hatred of anybody outside of the tribe. Maybe the love of battle and of fighting (though that seems more Ysgardian). How does Ocanthus represent that sort of distillation? Or should it?

Maybe there's a better track I could take in approaching the layer, but that thought has been bothering me for a while.


Probably bigotry and the ignorance related to it. The inhabitants do not know why they fight, only that they fight the Enemy. If you ask why the Enemy is bad, you are an ally of the Enemy. If two rival faction members meet without telling each other which faction they belong to, they would be friendly, but as soon as they find out each others identity, they will ignore their past friendship, as the Enemy would never be friendly unless it was a ruse. The Enemy cannot be redeemed, cannot be reasoned to, for the only way to deal with the Enemy in their mind is to destroy or enslave it. It is all an Us vs Them type mentality.

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Re: Planar Renovation Project: Acheron

I know this is an old thread, and that a lot has already been covered, but I had a couple of thoughts while reading this. I like the idea of Acheron as the plane of mindless drudgery in general, and not just in the form of militias.

There's a book called the Phantom Tollbooth that I think holds a lot of inspiration for Planescape. It's practically "Planescape for Kids." It's about a boy who travels through the titular tollbooth (which is essentially a portal) to another world where the characters and places are manifestations of particular concepts and ideals. Anyway, in that book there's a "demon" named the Terrible Trivium who enthralls the heroes by giving them each some ludicrous and pointless task to complete, like moving a mountain one grain of sand at a time. He (almost) convinces them that working endlessly at some mindlessly simple task is better than struggling with a difficult or risky one. That concept seems appropriate for Acheron.

There's also the Fields of Asphodel from Greek religion. (I think it was brought up recently in another thread.) It's a kind of purgatory where the dead continue their work from life, but without joy or purpose. According the wikipedia page, the souls that enter the Fields of Asphodel "drink from the river Lethe before entering the fields, thus losing their identities and becoming something similar to a machine." (They could perhaps drink from the Styx, instead.)

Regarding Tintibulus and its role in the greater theme of Acheron... I could see it as a place where magic-users become slaves to their own power. They are lured by the magic-enhancing properties of the layer, but as they grow in power, they also lose some of their identity and purpose. Perhaps they eventually become living spells or some similar entity.

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