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Planar Champion: Bad! Bad! Bad!

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Sun, 2006-10-08 08:25
#1
Armoury99
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Planar Champion: Bad! Bad! Bad!

Don't know if I'm just being unreasonable, but I HATE the Planar Champion prestige class from Manual of the Planes.

It gives supernatural abilities without any pre-requisites, several of which make no sense (given the limited Ethereal and Astral connection in the OUter Planes), and a Planar Survival ability that's very powerful, lasts indefinitely, and cancels out the broadranging effects of planar travel in a way that even higher-level spells don't.

This strikes as utter munchkinism and an attempt to evade everything that makes Planescape unique.

Have I just got a bee in my bonnet, or does anyone else agree with me?

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Sun, 2006-10-08 11:12
#2
Iavas
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Planar Champion: Bad! Bad! Bad!

3e Manual of the Planes has about the same to do with Planescape as Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting has to do with Tolkien's Middle Earth. So don't take it too seriously. Personally, I just use it for updated statistics, such as how much damage a sod frying in the Plane of Fire takes per round. What particularly infests my own headware is the sheer number of minor changes MotP has - tiny little things like leaving out the entire bloody Olympian pantheon from Arborea, Modrons from Mechanus, and all Para- and Quasi- Elemental planes. But then I go back and think about what I wrote at the beginning of this paragraph, take a deep breath, and go back to the 2e books. Smiling

Sun, 2006-10-08 13:09
(Reply to #2) #3
Armoury99
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Planar Champion: Bad! Bad! Bad!

Oh thank the Powers, its not just me.

Sun, 2006-10-08 14:51
(Reply to #3) #4
420
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Planar Champion: Bad! Bad! Bad!

'Iavas' wrote:
tiny little things like leaving out the entire bloody Olympian pantheon from Arborea, Modrons from Mechanus, and all Para- and Quasi- Elemental planes.
Well that's not entirely true. They weren't left out of the MotP (see pg 129) but their details were cut for space reasons, not for any game mechanic descisions on WotC's part.

The section on Modrons that was cut was released as one of the Manual of the Planes Web Enhancements.

-420

Sun, 2006-10-08 16:43
(Reply to #4) #5
Iavas
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Planar Champion: Bad! Bad! Bad!

I remember reading somewhere that they decided to replace Modrons with Formians because the former were too "goofy". The Olympian pantheon, as all other pantheons based on real life religions, were left out on purpose as well, otherwise they would have at least received mention. In fact, the one book that they were described in, Deities & Demigods, set them in seperate cosmologies. And as for the elemental planes, I can see not describing every plane in detail (as that would be a whole book in itself), but a passing mention would have done better than changing the system. And don't get me started about the whole Astral Plane being ubiquitious thing.

However, I'm not blaming WotC. It's their book, and their decision. Hell, it was my favorite 3e book until I discovered the real 2e Planescape. Thankfully, they didn't try to recreate Planescape with these changes. They just added a cosmology to their own Greyhawk setting, not to mention giving people the rules necessarry to create a new cosmology. In my personal opinion, the book should not be used a definitive source for Planescape, as they are two different settings with numerous common or similar elements.

Sun, 2006-10-08 17:49
(Reply to #5) #6
Narfi Ref
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Planar Champion: Bad! Bad! Bad!

First of all, it's the "Planar Champion," not the "Outer Planar Champion," so I don't understand your complaint about Ethereal and Astral based effects, in fact I see this as a way to limit their power as the Ethereal effects shouldn't work on the Astral and Outer Planes, and the Astral effects shouldn't work in the Ethereal and Inner Planes. As far as pre-reqs are concerned, perhaps add Skill Focus: Knowledge (The Planes).

For Planar Survival I would say change it to work as Avoid Planar Effects cast as a Sorceror of a level equal to your Planar Champion level with a target/range of Personal and a duration of 1 hour/level that activates as soon as the character arrives on a plane that he has visited before and has spent at least one hour on prior to this visit. After the duration is up it will not work again on that plane until he has rested for 8 hours, and has left the plane and come back, however it will work on each new plane visited between rests.

If it's still too powerful, consider reducing the BAB to medium progression.

Sun, 2006-10-08 19:27
(Reply to #6) #7
420
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Planar Champion: Bad! Bad! Bad!

'Iavas' wrote:
I remember reading somewhere that they decided to replace Modrons with Formians because the former were too "goofy".

Not sure how the Modrons are different in Planescape but they first showed up in the AD&D Monster Manual II (which I keep close to me at all times):

Quote:

The Plane of Nirvana is a place of balance and absolute order. It is equally hot and cold, equally light and dark, and made of equal parts of solid and liquid. The chief inhabitants of this plane are known as modrons and live in a rigid caste system under the absolute rule of Primus the One.

Nirvana is laid out like a great wheel with the Tower of Primus at the hub. The wheel is infinitely wide but divided into 64 sectors, each sector with its own governor.

From the Manual of the Planes, Under Clockwork Nirvana of Mechanus, Regulus (page 129):

Quote:

Clockwork creatures reside on Mechanus in a realm called Regulus and seem well suited to it. These alien beings, called modrons, look and act like constructs but breathe and eat like the outsiders they are. The modrons control sixty-four cogs, and this number never varies.

The formians didn't really replace the modrons as much as the modrons and the plane of ultimate law were reworked to make room for other, more antagonistic inhabitants including formians, inevitables, petitioners and various other outer and prime plane beings.

Oh and just so I'm not completely off topic, I agree with Narfi Ref's opinions on the Planar Champion.

-420

Sun, 2006-10-08 20:39
(Reply to #7) #8
Iavas
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Planar Champion: Bad! Bad! Bad!

Narfi Ref - Yes, the Planar Champion might not be completely flawed, but since you propose changing it in some way, you have to admit that for the Planescape setting, it would require an update.

420 - What I meant about Modrons is that they went from being as important to Mechanus as a Slaad to Limbo or a Tanar'ri to the Abyss to being a passing, unnamed mention that could easily be interpreted as referring to the new Inevitables by anybody not familiar with the earlier incarnations of the Multiverse - aka 2e.

Sun, 2006-10-08 21:19
(Reply to #8) #9
Narfi Ref
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Planar Champion: Bad! Bad! Bad!

I proposed changing it because Armoury thought it was too overpowered, so I thought I'd help him make it useable for his games. I have to admit though that I might tweak it a bit myself, were I to allow it in my game.

Mon, 2006-10-09 00:05
(Reply to #9) #10
ripvanwormer
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Planar Champion: Bad! Bad! Bad!

'420' wrote:
Not sure how the Modrons are different in Planescape but they first showed up in the AD&D Monster Manual II (which I keep close to me at all times)

The main change was to make them look more like half-mechanical creatures, as opposed to the polyhedron dice with insect legs/humanoids with Easter Island heads design they had in 1e. Tony DiTerlizzi drew them with clockwork parts, mechanical legs, metal armor, steam pipes protruding from them in various locations, and so on, although their faces and - in the higher castes - most of their bodies are seemingly organic.

1st edition quadrone:

Planescape quadrone:

The other major change to the plane itself: in the 1st edition Monster Manual II, the entirety of the plane of Nirvana was a grid divided into 64 squares, each ruled by an octon. In Planescape and in 3rd edition, the modrons rule a realm called Regulus with 64 gears arranged in something of a pyramid, each gear ruled by an octon. Regulus is supposed to be the very largest of all the realms of Mechanus, but it's still something of a demotion from ruling the entire plane, as they did in 1e.

Mon, 2006-10-09 07:44
(Reply to #10) #11
Iavas
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Planar Champion: Bad! Bad! Bad!

It's not so much that the Modrons were demoted, but that the plane expanded around them. That's what I like about the Outer Planes... if you come up with a new area for them, they are infinite but can still expand with the power of belief.

Mon, 2006-10-09 14:43
(Reply to #11) #12
Jem
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Planar Champion: Bad! Bad! Bad!

I don't own MotP exactly because a number of things in there -- including Planar Champion -- seemed way too overpowered.

For contrast, I rather like the Elemental Warrior template from... Planar Handbook, I think... which struck me as a lot more balanced. Still gives Su abilities to a fighter, but at least it suggests a certain philosophical devotion, reminiscent of a cleric's or monk's training.

Tue, 2006-10-10 20:12
(Reply to #12) #13
Duckluck
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Planar Champion: Bad! Bad! Bad!

I can't say I'm fond of the Manual of the Planes. It's mostly just a version of the planes with almost all of the material unique to Planescape written out of it. The Planar Handbook on the other hand, doesn't always follow Planescape, but it certainly acknowledges it existed.

Regarding the Planar Champion though, it really isn't that bad. The abillities they get are things that casters get already (usually at lower levels, too), and let's face it, fighters need all the help they can get surviving the planes. A Planar champion has some powerful abillities, but they still can be easilly outshown by the party wizard.

Planar Survival is a little cheap, and way better than anything most fighters get, but it doesn't make the class "over-powered," because, as it is, regular fighters are pathetically underpowered.

Lastly, I'm unilaterally opposed to making PrC's require terrible and boring feats like Skill Focus. If you only get 7 feats in your entire carreer, do you really want to waste one on a skill bonus you won't even notice much?

By the way, this is my first post on Planewalker, and I just wanted to say how much I love what the site is doing.

Wed, 2006-10-11 06:57
(Reply to #13) #14
Armoury99
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Planar Champion: Bad! Bad! Bad!

'Duckluck' wrote:
it really isn't that bad. The abillities they get are things that casters get already (usually at lower levels, too)

High Duckluck, welcome aboard.

Nice to see my bored Sunday afternoon ranting generating some debate.

Reagrding the above, I think my answer is "but can they do it all day, like the Planar Champion can?"

To clarify things a bit, I think my primary objection is that the powers given come with no magical or philosophical prerequisite (not necessarilly Feats, I agree with you and Jem there). I'd want to see some investment in that (or at least, being made champion of something!) otherwise the whole PrC seems overpowered.

I think Narfi makes a valid point about Outer/Transitive champions, but I'd prefer to see two seperate PrCs rather than them mashed into one, but then again (not tryin start another arguement!) I pretty much disaprove of PrCs as a whole...

Much for me to think on, and possibly put finger to keyboard about...

Wed, 2006-10-11 15:50
(Reply to #14) #15
Duckluck
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Planar Champion: Bad! Bad! Bad!

The idea, I think, was that when a Planar Champion is dumped onto a plane (and keep in mind, wizards have ways to find out where a portal leads, but Fighters don't really), he or she won't be killed immediately by its negative traits. If you make it a Spell-like abillity, then they have to take a round to cast it, after they arrive on the plane and take the first round's damage. Wizards don't have that problem, because they can just cast the spell before they arive.

Inadvertantly, they made it a little too good (Not over-powered exactly, but boring and annoying to the DM), because as a supernatural abillity, it doesn't have a duration. One good fix for it that wouldn't result in the Planar Champion getting fried would be to make it a Spell-like Abillity that triggered as an immediate action (ala Feather Fall), and give it a short duration (1-10 minutes/character level), and mulitple uses (3/day), or give it a long duration (1 hour/character level) and one use per day. In either case, one use should only work for a particular plane.

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