The place of RPG's in the fantasy/sci-fi genre

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Rikutatis's picture
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The place of RPG's in the fantasy/sci-fi genre

The fantasy genre is represented in several different media, such as literature, film, japanese anime, videogames and RPG. Sorry if this sounds too expositive, but please bear with me.

My point is that I feel like the RPG medium doesn't make nearly as many creative contributions to the fantasy genre as a whole as do the other media (with the possible exception of the film industry).

Sure, fantasy has its roots in literature and therefore it's natural that many cliches, stereotypes and original ideas come from that medium. After all it came a long time before RPGs were created. But after a while the RPG industry should have started to catch up in the creativity and originaly department. And I'm not confident it has. At least not to the extent that other media such as videogames and japanese manga/anime have.

Now perhaps this is partly due to the fact that console RPGs, manga and anime are mostly produced by asian cultures - cultures that are different enough from western traditions as to offer fresh perspectives and ideas to the genre. But I don't think this is the only factor.

Even if we look at the work of contemporary artists and designers in these various fields, it's much easier to find more innovation and fresh ideas outside of the RPG industry. Just to name a few, there's Lain, Texhnolyze, Boogiepop Phantom and many others in the anime department; then there's the Final Fantasy series, Xenosaga, Vagrant Story, Shin Megami Tensei and various others in the videogame industry. In fantasy literature, you'll find New Crobuzon and the world of Bas-Lag, A Song of Ice and Fire, Hard-boiled Wonderland, Warbreaker and many others. Now quite honestly, what do we have in the RPG industry today that isn't a retake of the ideas originally presented in all the work from other media I mentioned above? I can think of only a few shining exceptions, such as Lacuna Part 1. Planescape and Nobilis would also fit in this category, but they are no longer being produced or distributed (unless we count the PS pdfs).

Perhaps the film industry shares this same knack for doing retakes on ideas and stories from other media, but hey, they did give us The Matrix at least.

So I suppose my questions would be: do you agree with me? Disagree? If you agree, why do you think this is the case? Any other thoughts on the matter?

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Re: The place of RPG's in the fantasy/sci-fi genre

When you are putting millions of dollars on the line making a game, and when what sells in the US is largely graphics driven games, it is hardly any surprise that major studios aren't taking a whole lot of risks (not unlike movie studios). Fantasy is a fringe genre and consequently has a comparatively small audience. The 80's and 90's were the heyday of RPGs because most gaming studios were small and willing to take risks. I'm not entirely sure why the Japanese market is all that different (Although I think you are right about the connection to anime, but my money is on the mass appeal stories of teenage angst have there. 95% of Japanese RPGs concern some angtsy teenager or group of teenagers trying to save the world, and frankly I think that particular subgenre is played out. You will note that nothing like Planescape: Torment or really any other RPG with an adult theme has ever seem to come out of Japanese gaming studios. Invariably it is giant swords and/or mecha plus angtsy teens plus world ending crisis.

There are good RPGs out there, but if you are looking for story and concept, most of those games are indie games you pay $5-10 for, so if you are expecting to find great RPGs in the studio realm, you are looking in the wrong place. Until independent studios really take a hold again (which I think is starting to happen), and until people start looking at videogames as a potential artform (which is also starting to happen) I think it is only natural that the studios treat it as an entertainment investment. How many toy companies release avante-guarde train sets? Right now videogames are essentially made with that mindset. Let make a toy that sells. Very few people care about the artistic merit of the game, so it is no surprise we don't get many great stories.

That said, I would love to see more of that kind of thing, and there are indie studios really driving in that direction, so perhaps your question is in the process of being answered and made manifest. But since generally speaking one guy cant sit at a computer and make a game in a year like a novelist can write a book, and since games are made through committee, and since the market for games is driven by a young audience with a short attention span it might take a while for that kind of game making to break through.

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Re: The place of RPG's in the fantasy/sci-fi genre

I think that modern day fantasy is becoming really trendy and popular today. While Harry Potter probably doesn't have any influence from RPGs (it may be influenced by Neil Gaiman though), I think there's possibly a little influence coming from RPGs coming into Twilight and any series of novels that resembles that.

I walked into a bookstore and saw that there were all these novels about Vampires, or Werewolves, or Demons in the modern world that was trying to cater to the Twilight crowd, and I certainly feel that some of them might have been influenced by some RPG that White Wolf made.

And it's funny that you mention New Crobuzon and the world of Bas-Lag, because the writer China Mevielle did in fact play D&D and now collects Monster Manuals despite not playing it anymore.

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Re: The place of RPG's in the fantasy/sci-fi genre

While I thought the Matrix was great, it was essentially a pastiche of classic cyberpunk (i.e. Gibson through Stephenson), a subgenre that hadn't really been given any mainstream exposure yet. Plus kung fu.

Pan's Labyrinth, I think, shows the sort of innovation in fantasy that we can look forward to. An early 20th century fantasy that avoids steampunk, pulp, scifi Nazis and superheroes is certainly trying something new.

Dogs in the Vineyard, Orx, and the Shab-al-Hiri Roach are all innovative indie products worth a look.

The issue may have to do with the role of published game products. Settings can be played straight or turned upside down, but players may be overwhelmed if too few things are recognizable. Do RPG gamers prefer innovation at the table over innovation in the sourcebooks? I'm not sure, but it would be worth looking into.

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Re: The place of RPG's in the fantasy/sci-fi genre

Are we talking tabletop or CRPGs?

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Rikutatis's picture
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Re: The place of RPG's in the fantasy/sci-fi genre

sciborg2: We're talking tabletop RPGs. Although by its very nature, the discussion encompasses the fantasy genre as a whole.

astralsahu: While I agree that The Matrix was basically a cyberpunk pastiche, I do believe that their take on the whole virtual reality theme was rather unique and innovative. But I do agree that Pan's Labyrinth also took innovation to a whole different level.

Kobold Avenger: True, White Wolf may be influencing many of these new supernatural vampire novels. But I believe it was the Lestat series by Anne Rice (first published in the 70s I believe) that introduced all these new story elements to the genre, which were later used by White Wolf. IMO Werewolf: the Apocalypse was their game with more groundbreaking design elements.

Archdukechocula: Yeah, teen angst is vastly overused in Japanese RPGs and anime. But I think the difference is that they've realized that a while ago already, and lately it's not as common to see teen ansgt all over the place anymore. I mean, just take the extremely famous Final Fantasy series for example. The last game in the series to have an angst-ridden protagonist was still in the days of the Playstation 1. World saving is still a staple in the mainstream market though. But I'd argue that's a staple of the fantasy genre as a whole.

However I feel like despite those staples and formulas, in Japanese RPGs and anime, the designers feel an obligation to present at least one new original idea or concept in each new game or show they put out. So you tend to see more innovation.

And I do agree that with tabletop RPGs, the indie scene is where you see the most innovation (Lacuna Part 1, Wonderland, etc).

But even taking the indie scene into account, my original point is that you see more original ideas in other media, such as videogames, anime and literature, than you do in tabletop RPGs.

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Re: The place of RPG's in the fantasy/sci-fi genre

I would tend to agree that usually the RPG is the last part in the chain. It usually starts with a book, moves to a movie, and then a video game and finally a role playing game.

When one things of other formulas, it doesn't seem to work. For example the difficulty in translating a good movie from a successful video game. The one that comes to mind is Doom. I think that it might be because they tried to stray too far from the video game. Mario Brothers was another one.

It took several years to finally develop a successful video game from Dungeons & Dragons. There were several attempts made but really the first one to get it it right was World of Warcraft. Also recently in a genre sense have we seen Lord the the Rings Trilogy. I think those two moments kind of re-ignited the interest again. For a long while it was kind of dying off.

With regard to RPGs I think we lag behind what Hollywood and other place are doing. Up until recently I would have said there was not much out there that was game changing. Then I went to see Avatar on New Years day and wow I would say we are coming back.

Matrix has possibilities I think we need to explore more. I think we have only scratched the surface of that mountain. However when we think of it roots it still boils down to the same things Man vs. Machine. Most of story telling boils down to the same set of themes.

Check out another one of my favorite websites.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HomePage

Very rarely does something new come along.

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Re: The place of RPG's in the fantasy/sci-fi genre

disorder_cleric wrote:
It took several years to finally develop a successful video game from Dungeons & Dragons. There were several attempts made but really the first one to get it it right was World of Warcraft.

Though there's definitely elements it draws from, World of Warcraft (and the entire Warcraft series) owes very little direct inspiration from D&D, honestly. It's far more based on Warhammer Fantasy than anything, really.

Also, weren't Pool of Radiance and Baldur's Gate II fairly popular? Neverwinter Nights and the Might & Magic series too, and I don't think the Baldur's Gate console series did too badly.

Oh, and how could I forget Nethack? While it's never had any commercial success (for virtue of being open-source freeware), it's got tremendous popularity online, and it's definitely heavily inspired from D&D. I doubt there's a single net community where you could say "Do you want your possessions identified?" and not have at least one member wince.

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Check out another one of my favorite websites.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HomePage

Oh god, you've just doomed the entire website to an endless chain of wikibrowsing for at least the next week. Sticking out tongue

That site really is the black hole of the internet, in a good way. It's impossible to read a page on it without finding four or five other pages you want to read, and it just cascades from there, and before you know it you look up and it's 5 AM on Sunday.

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Re: The place of RPG's in the fantasy/sci-fi genre

*cautiously opens new link in a new window* Well, I suspect that means that I shouldn't go there just right yet, but... I guess I'll see you on Sunday at 5am. Eye-wink
-will

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Re: The place of RPG's in the fantasy/sci-fi genre

Idran wrote:
Though there's definitely elements it draws from, World of Warcraft (and the entire Warcraft series) owes very little direct inspiration from D&D, honestly. It's far more based on Warhammer Fantasy than anything, really.

Also, weren't Pool of Radiance and Baldur's Gate II fairly popular? Neverwinter Nights and the Might & Magic series too, and I don't think the Baldur's Gate console series did too badly.

Oh, and how could I forget Nethack? While it's never had any commercial success (for virtue of being open-source freeware), it's got tremendous popularity online, and it's definitely heavily inspired from D&D. I doubt there's a single net community where you could say "Do you want your possessions identified?" and not have at least one member wince.

Damn I love that description "A Knight in Sour Armor" and "being good sucks". You are right on the World or Warcraft thing but I would say both have the same root. The root was J.R.R. Tolkien changed just enough so we could make a game of it. When was the last time you remember Ozzy doing a commercial for anything? Mr. T... I am not sure what the formula was, when compared against the likes of Neverwinter and Baldur's Gate, but I would say WOW found it. Simplicity, Graphics, and technology. We are part of the times in which we live, only a few years ago movies like Avatar would not have been possible. I guess what I am saying is it where we fit in, in the circle of creativity.

For example you can't have a vampire game without say True Blood or Underworld, or Blade or Lost Boys or something to ignite the imagination. Each adds a small bit to the genre for example Underworld. I don't remember Vampires vs Werewolves before that movie. Lost Boys were the first Vampires to turn against their own kind etc. Blade was the first to make Darkness a profession.

I think we have sort played out the Star Wars thing for a while. I think we have squeezed for as much as we can get from it without a new angle.

Matrix I think there is tons of room and I am surprised only a few came after it.

Robots are usually fun, IRobot, Terminator. Notice how they have made their way into our game which is supposedly Medieval based. . Modrons, Warforged it is all there they call it by different names but it is always there somewhere.

I think Planescape could be big but we need a movie. It doesn't have to be a really good one at first. Then the next one builds on where you left off and so on. Think about the first superhero movies or Dungeon and Dragons "like" movies. Beastmaster, Sword and Sorcery. It took a long time to get to Lord of the Rings. I am surprised Warcraft hasn't gone after one. They pretty much do so already with the intros to their games. I think a true Warhammer movie would be a killer too. Can you imagine the Lords of Chaos on the big screen? I think if they are going to do it they should go with Space Marines and the Emperor vs Daemons. I can see it all now, scary what goes on in my head...

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Re: The place of RPG's in the fantasy/sci-fi genre

disorder_cleric wrote:
Damn I love that description "A Knight in Sour Armor" and "being good sucks". You are right on the World or Warcraft thing but I would say both have the same root. The root was J.R.R. Tolkien changed just enough so we could make a game of it. When was the last time you remember Ozzy doing a commercial for anything? Mr. T... I am not sure what the formula was, when compared against the likes of Neverwinter and Baldur's Gate, but I would say WOW found it. Simplicity, Graphics, and technology. We are part of the times in which we live, only a few years ago movies like Avatar would not have been possible. I guess what I am saying is it where we fit in, in the circle of creativity.

Your definition of success is extremely skewed if you're saying it has to be WoW or nothing, considering that WoW is literally one of the most popular videogames of all time. That's like saying that a movie is only successful if it's a Titanic or a Batman Begins. It's just a ludicrously high standard, no offense.

WoW is huge, yes, but what I'm saying is by no means was it the first successful game based on D&D or fantasy. And as for the other points, WoW is successful for a lot of reasons, but graphics are almost definitely not them. Outside the expansions, the graphics in WoW are literally unchanged from when it was first released in 2004. Players right now are using the exact same character models they were in Vanilla WoW, and outside a few tweaks here and there, the old world hasn't changed at all since then either. That's reportedly going to change with Cataclysm, but it hasn't happened yet. I'm not sure what you mean by simplicity or technology, either, but as for simplicity, the main reason the gameplay appears simple is because theorycrafters have already pretty much "solved" the PvE game mathematically, so the optimum rotations and boss strategies are well-known enough that it's all a matter of sticking to them. And as for the PvP game...honestly, PvP in WoW is just horrible by any objective standpoint. Even the developers have admitted that Arena was probably the biggest mistake they've ever made in WoW, just because it's almost impossible to balance the same set of abilities for both PvE and PvP.

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For example you can't have a vampire game without say True Blood or Underworld, or Blade or Lost Boys or something to ignite the imagination. Each adds a small bit to the genre for example Underworld. I don't remember Vampires vs Werewolves before that movie. Lost Boys were the first Vampires to turn against their own kind etc. Blade was the first to make Darkness a profession.

Vampire: the Masquerade came way before Underworld, True Blood, and Blade, and while it might have been inspired by Lost Boys, I don't think that movie is wholly to thank for it, I think it was far more the general popularity of the goth subculture at the time etc, of which Lost Boys was merely another manifestation. I think it would have come out even if Lost Boys hadn't been made. Unless you mean videogames, in which case...well, Vampire: the Masquerade - Redemption still came before each of those three but Blade, and again, I doubt Blade had anything to do with any of that game. Plus, keep in mind that Blade was a comic adaptation to begin with, not an original movie.

As for the rest of it, White Wolf was also doing vampires vs. werewolves before Underworld (to the point where a friend of mine was actually under the impression while watching it that it was a WW movie), and the idea of darkness as a profession dates back to Abraham van Helsing in Stoker's original novel.

No offense, but it really isn't as clean an order as you're making it out to be. There's no easy line of adaptation even in terms of concept from one media to another, it all depends on the specifics of adaptation you're talking about, and the nature of the work you're making. The reason why going from video games to movies (or TV, or books) is apparently hard is because it's really hard to go from either low plot or player-directed plot to any sort of cinematic or literary version. But an adaptation from any media to any media is certainly possible

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I am surprised Warcraft hasn't gone after one. They pretty much do so already with the intros to their games.

There actually is one in the works at the moment. Sam Raimi's rumored to be directing it, and the screenplay's being written by Robert Rodat and Chris Metzen.

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Re: The place of RPG's in the fantasy/sci-fi genre

Blade, I remember clearly ripped off the idea of vampire clans, and vampiric ghouls from V:tM, and had nothing like that in the comic is what based off of, which I remember Blade being from a comic called Nightstalkers with teammates Hannibal King and Frank Drake. However no movie yet has taken the idea of Cain's murder of Abel as being the cause of the first vampire yet. I'll admit that Werewolf was probably more original, as I haven't seen anything yet that's depicted Werewolf's as shamanistic eco-terrorists.

And while Chronicles of Riddick wasn't that successful of a movie, when I first saw the trailer, I thought it was Warhammer 40,000 the Movie.

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Re: The place of RPG's in the fantasy/sci-fi genre

White wolf has always gone after the darker side of RPGs. With regard to success, I think there is plenty of room. There have been several other companies that have come since which are pretty close. It doesn't seem to be about selling 2 Million copies anymore? At one time that would have been a success.

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