Pillar of Skulls

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Allanius's picture
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Pillar of Skulls

I find something odd regarding he Pillar of Skulls at least from what I learned from Planescape: Torment.

1) The pillar is made up of petitioners and has information about various topics. Petitioners forget everything they know when they die. How does the pillar gets it's information?

2) The pillar is on Avernus, first layer of Ba'ator (Plane of Lawful Evil). The pillar is made up of petitioners who caused someone's death by lying. Lying is chaotic. Why isn't the pillar in the Abyss?

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Lying isn't chaotic. Devils do it all the time and 'loths would be the most chaotic beings in the multiverse if it were.

I gathered from Planscape cannon that it's a pile of Blood War trophies and that it has nothing to do with petitioners, but I may be wrong.

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So a paladin can lie and suffer no penalties?

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Depends on whether or not he's sworn an oath not to lie and what exactly the lie in meant to achieve.

Are politicians Chaotic Evil?

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Neutral evil, I think.

Allanius's picture
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Odd, according to the Player's Handbook v3.5, pg 104:

LAW VS. CHAOS
Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word,...

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factotums
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What's odd about it? They tend to do something. Sometimes they don't. Chaotic Evil characters don't all kill everything in sight all the time.

Anyway, if anything you should be reading the entry for Lawful Evil.

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The players handbook definitions of law and chaos aren't very good. The definitions here (see chapter eight of the PSCS) are much better and they don't contradict one annother.

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Breaking your word is chaotic. Going around your word, however, is fair game even for a lawful berk. That's how devils get their contracts. They put in fine print, which is the written equivalent of bypassing your word. This is also the most likely strategy of the Pillar of Skulls. Since the thing is made mostly of Tanar'ri (and other Blood War enemies of the Baatezu), it could just be entirely chaotic and lie in your face.

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Ok, so you are saying PS:T has law and chaos defined incorrectly because as far as I can see, every time you lied in the game, +1 Chaos.

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Allanius Wrote:

Quote:
1) The pillar is made up of petitioners and has information about various topics. Petitioners forget everything they know when they die. How does the pillar gets it's information?

According to new info presented in "Fiendish Codex 2: Tyrants of Nine Hells" pettitoners arive on Baator with their forms and memories INTACT. Baatezu then gather those petitioners and torture them for divineenergies, and trough that procces petitioners lose all memories and personality until only thing what is left is broken "soul shell" wich is used in creation of lemures.
Prehaps that is how petitioners end in pillar of skulls and they retain their memories: at one point Baatezu separate "heads" of such "lying sages" from the rest of their "bodies" in order to perserve the wealth of information they posses.
After all knowledge is power, and corupted and incopleate knowledge is also power to be used against your enemies.
Yes, it is contradiction with PS canon (that petitioners lose their memories in crossing trough astral plane) but it is only logical explanation I can think of.

Second explanation wich is more with classical PS cannon (and more expensive) is fact that in Set´s relam of Ankhwugat grows rare flower that can restore memories lost to the waters of river Styx. Prehaps it works on the spirits of the dead people too. So in this option Baatezu trade (or steal) with Minions of Set for this rare substance, wich they use to restore memories of such petitoners before they put them in Pillar of Skulls.

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Allanius's picture
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Can someone provide a lawful lie as an example?

Ancalagon Firesoul's picture
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Lying to preserve the status quo, or the integrity of a group?

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Prehaps under lawful laying could be also considered not telling vital information (on wich one life could depend) or telling just the parts of the truth.

For example: sage wants to get powerful artefact but he does not tell the the bit of deadly curse or powerful vampire that guards it to adventurers he hires to get it.

or...

King´s prophet has vision that defenders of his beseiged city will be victorious and will defeat invaders, what he withold´ s from his report to the king is fact that in his vision victory comes at great cost of 90% of kings army.

So sometimes telling just partial information could be worst than any lie, and people from examlples above could fill the bill nicely for Pillar of Skulls.

__________________

One-eyed, one-horned, flying, purple people eater says: "Monsters are nature's way for keeping XPs fresh."

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'Allanius' wrote:
Can someone provide a lawful lie as an example?

Chaotic - Direct lie / breaking a promise:
Saying "I promise I won't eat you if you help me escape!" and then, after they help you escape you eat them anyway.

Lawful - Indirect lie / bending the truth:
Saying "I promise I won't eat you if you help me escape!" and then, after they help you escape, you kill them but don't eat them.

As far as I can remember from PS:T, you only got more chaotic if you broke promises or blatantly lied when you knew the truth. I don't remember any instances of 'truth bending', but then again, I never went for the lawful approach to that game.

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'Iavas' wrote:
Lawful - Indirect lie / bending the truth: Saying "I promise I won't eat you if you help me escape!" and then, after they help you escape, you kill them but don't eat them.

Um, how is this a lie? You never said you wouldn't kill them, so you spoke the truth.

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Eh, it's all intent. Imagine yourself in the situation. You free the big toothy thing from the cage and it immediately attacks you, even though it said it wouldn't eat you. I'm sure one of the things going through your head is gonna be "It lied!"

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So, it lied because I believe it lied? Heck, I believe I'm a god! Smiling

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You lied because you said something with the intent to decieve.

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'Allanius' wrote:
So, it lied because I believe it lied? Heck, I believe I'm a god! Smiling

How strong is your belief? You might make a good Believer of the Source

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While I was shifting trough my old Blood War cards (TSR CCG featuring Planescape), I found intersting bit of flawor text on the card: The Pillar of Skulls:

Ahem...

Quote:
"The Pillar´s the biggest collection of lyin´ bone-boxes in Baator, through there´s many a letherhead that fall fer its lies and become another skull in that tower..."

This could be just chant and rumors, but if it is true than it all thing just ironic. I mean, that among´s those lying skulls there are those that speak truth, and no one belives them. Heh... Smiling

__________________

One-eyed, one-horned, flying, purple people eater says: "Monsters are nature's way for keeping XPs fresh."

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'Allanius' wrote:
'Iavas' wrote:
Lawful - Indirect lie / bending the truth: Saying "I promise I won't eat you if you help me escape!" and then, after they help you escape, you kill them but don't eat them.

Um, how is this a lie? You never said you wouldn't kill them, so you spoke the truth.

Lie of omission vs. lie of commission. The latter is outright saying something that's untrue, and is chaotic. The former is not saying the whole truth, and it's not chaotic. That's what the baatezu do; they won't say something that's outright false, but they won't say the whole truth either.

That's why perjury includes not telling the entire truth, not merely saying something untruthful. "The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth".

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