Petitioners

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Sakara's picture
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Petitioners

I've looked around and couldn't find any information on this, so I thought you guys might have an idea. What becomes of the petitioners living in a deity’s realm when the deity dies and the realm disappears? If someone casts "resurrection" or "speak with dead" or "raise dead" on a corpse from the prime, how does this affect the petitioner that came from that prime's soul? If anyone knows where this is covered in the books, or if you have dealt with this in one of your campaigns, I'd be much obliged to hear about it.

Thanks!

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Petitioners

I'd assume if the power is gone then the petitioner either gets absorbed by the plane the power's domain was on - or becomes a petitioner of the plane itself (as a sort of 'backup' place to go). I'm not sure the issue has ever been addressed.

As for ressurection and the like - yeah - the petitioner is dissolved and returned. Most petitioners aren't really that focused on anything other than their afterlife though - (they aren't really a viable PC race) - so this isn't usually a problem. I'd site references but I'm at school - so no books at hand.

Admittedly this may explain in part why evil guys never seem to be able to come back to life via 'raise dead' like good guys do in tabletop games. Petioners are dinner in many lower planes. (That's what a larvae *is* and where do you think larvae steaks come from, eh?) An evil petitioner may also be remade into a lesser fiend - negating the chance of raise dead as well. I don't think good petitioners often get remade into celestials though so *shrug*.

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Petitioners

"Clueless" wrote:
I'd assume if the power is gone then the petitioner either gets absorbed by the plane the power's domain was on - or becomes a petitioner of the plane itself (as a sort of 'backup' place to go). I'm not sure the issue has ever been addressed.

As for ressurection and the like - yeah - the petitioner is dissolved and returned. Most petitioners aren't really that focused on anything other than their afterlife though - (they aren't really a viable PC race) - so this isn't usually a problem. I'd site references but I'm at school - so no books at hand.

Admittedly this may explain in part why evil guys never seem to be able to come back to life via 'raise dead' like good guys do in tabletop games. Petioners are dinner in many lower planes. (That's what a larvae *is* and where do you think larvae steaks come from, eh?) An evil petitioner may also be remade into a lesser fiend - negating the chance of raise dead as well. I don't think good petitioners often get remade into celestials though so *shrug*.

Becoming a low-ranking exemplar is no detriment to resurrection. Lantern archons are Lawful Good petitioners, and Paladins get res'd all the time.

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Petitioners

*nod* But they're petitioners at the same time as being celestials - so it's not like taking a petitioner and changing them innately - right?

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Petitioners

"Clueless" wrote:
*nod* But they're petitioners at the same time as being celestials - so it's not like taking a petitioner and changing them innately - right?
Point taken.

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avenue of ashes

"Eco-Mono" wrote:
Becoming a low-ranking exemplar is no detriment to resurrection. Lantern archons are Lawful Good petitioners, and Paladins get res'd all the time.

On Hallowed Ground notes that once petitioners are soulforged into true planeborne they're no longer petitioners. So yeah, lantern archons can be sent back to their mortal bodies if it hasn't been too long, and they're willing. Hound archons are planeborne now, and resurrection spells aren't powerful enough to make them anything else.

Same with tanar'ri: manes and larvae are petitioners, but dretches aren't.

I think it's most interesting if petitioners lost when their god dies flood the other planes in a tide of refugees. Just disappearing isn't very exciting, but lots of former petitioners of Thor suddenly showing up on Zeus' doorstep wanting to be taken in could be very exciting indeed. Or they might start clogging the streets of the Hive Ward, or even haunting the Material Plane as ghosts. Who knows what a soul might be driven to when it's lost its reason for existence, its hope for eternal salvation?

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Re: avenue of ashes

"Kaelyn" wrote:
I think it's most interesting if petitioners lost when their god dies flood the other planes in a tide of refugees. Just disappearing isn't very exciting, but lots of former petitioners of Thor suddenly showing up on Zeus' doorstep wanting to be taken in could be very exciting indeed. Or they might start clogging the streets of the Hive Ward, or even haunting the Material Plane as ghosts. Who knows what a soul might be driven to when it's lost its reason for existence, its hope for eternal salvation?

One thing. Thor and Zeus are both part of panteons of gods. Thor's petitoners, most of em at least, probably go to their pantheon's domain first and then are sent to Thor. Thus if Thor dies (And yes that particular pantheon has plans for it) the petitioners (If they didn't die in the battle that took Thor) under him would simply go to Odin or one of the other Norse gods. As for Zeus, if he died his petitioners would probably go to Hera, after all she is his wife. That might make for interesting politics...Then again they are greeek. Or

Sakara's picture
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Petitioners

These are great answers guys! It's a big help: thanks. Keep 'em comming! Laughing out loud

Truth Golem's picture
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Petitioners

Didn't Maanzecorian's petitioners die when their deity was put in the dead-book? I don't have Dead Gods with me right now, though, so I could be wrong.

The Speak with Dead spell works differently from the other spells you mentioned. When newly-dead petitioners travel through the Astral to reach their destination plane, their memories get stuck there in the form of 'memory bodies', which is why they don't remember anything of their past lives. So, Speak with Dead just contacts the memory body on the Astral, and the petitioner never even gets involved.

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Petitioners

Quote:
Didn't Maanzecorian's petitioners die when their deity was put in the dead-book? I don't have Dead Gods with me right now, though, so I could be wrong.

They were proxies, not petitioners. They life essences were linked with Maanzecorian so much they died with him.

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Petitioners

Looks like 3.0 speak with dead draws from the memories of the corpse itself *not* from any memory body or petitioner. The soul has moved on - you're just talking to the shell and the embedded memories in it. (Let's not even talk about the breakdown of the chemical pathways and all of that jazz. It's magic. Eye-wink )

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Petitioners

Thanks Bleaker. My bad.

I'm surprised they took out memory bodies. If the memories stay with the corpse, then that would change the Astral Plane quite a bit. It would at least change the Psychic Winds, anyway.

*grumble* Just when I thought I knew how things worked they go and change all the details...

They probably do it just to make you buy all the 3e books... :roll:

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Petitioners

I've got hte feeling it was for sheer simplicity. Eye-wink The 3.0 books were coming out to people that they assumed knew *nada* about DnD or any previous settings. And they probably didn't want to go into a lecture about the metaphysics of 'speak to dead' (not enough page count) - so it was simpler to just say "Ok. Use the memories of the corpse and be done with it"

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"Truth Golem" wrote:
I'm surprised they took out memory bodies. If the memories stay with the corpse, then that would change the Astral Plane quite a bit. It would at least change the Psychic Winds, anyway.
The two aren't mutually exclusive. They could stay with the corpse and go to the Astral Plane.

The way that the Nameless One spoke to the dead in Torment made it clear that memories stayed in the corpse to some extent, at least in that computer game.

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Petitioners

The memory bodies probably still exist, but in 3.x the spell is more like "stone tell" (or whatever the actual spell is called). You're addressing the inanimate body, not disturbing the soul or animus. Or so I understand it.

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memory cores

From Fire and Dust by James Alan Gardner:

Quote:
Open water spread without end beneath a jet black sky. There were no stars, but three moons, all of them full--a white moon, a silver one, and a moon of frosted green, each lunar face pocked and ravaged with craters. The moons cast enough light to provide a clear view around us: the waters of the Styx, as foul and fetid as ever, streaming out like a malodorous black stripe across an otherwise crystal sea. Two paces away the sea water glistened with the dappling of moonlight, as calm as a windless lake. The sight made me yearn for a swim in the soft, beckoning waters; but even as I tried to touch the cleanness beyond the polluted path of the Styx, a body bobbed to the surface.

The body was naked and female, possibly human...but it was difficult to be sure, given the bloat of the corpse, plus the damage done by fish and eels. The woman's ears were completely eaten away; the fingers were simply bones held together by gristle, and the cheeks were both torn open into ragged holes. As I watched, a delicate silver pilchard darted in through one of the cheek cavities, bit into the dead woman's tongue, and tried to wrestle away a piece of pink meat.

I had to look away. When I did, I saw other bodies drifting up out of the sea, as if our arrival had loosed them all from some confinement fathoms below. Each corpse was tattered with bite marks; each belly was swollen with the gases of decay.

"A pocket in the Astral Plane," Garou said. "The Sea of the Drowned."

But Yasmin looked at the woman closest to us and whispered, "Mother."

The woman's half-eaten eyelids opened. I saw now that her eyes had a tiefling cast: blood-red and feline, with no discernible whites. She did not move a muscle, but her body circled on some undetectable current until her face was focused on Yasmin. "I have been recognized," she said, in a breathy voice that released the stink of gases from her gut. "What do you ask?"

"Nothing," Yasmin answered immediately. "I don't want anything from you. Go away."

"What do you ask?" the woman said again. Her breath fouled the air like sewage.

"I told you, I don't need anything. I don't want to talk to you." Yasmin snatched up her sword, though the body was floating just too far to reach. "Go back wherever you came from."

"Impossible," the dead woman said. "I have been recognized. What do you ask?"

"I ask you to get out of my sight!" Yasmin's voice was becoming shrill. "Now!"

"That is not within my power," the floating corpse replied. "What do you ask?"

Yasmin balled her hands into fists and covered her eyes. I put an arm around her shoulder and growled at Garou, "What's this all about?"

For a moment he didn't answer, perhaps debating whether the truth would cause us more pain than ignorance. Then he said, "Nothing truly dies in the multiverse. When a soul is killed in one place, it is merely re-embodied on another plane...but with no memory of its former existence."

"Any leatherhead knows that," Miriam muttered.

"But if the memories are gone, where do they go?" Garou asked. "They can't just vanish--the multiverse doesn't let anything slip through its fingers so easily. Every dying person's memory drifts like flotsam on unseen tides, until it fetches up in a holding basin like this one. Here lie the remembrances of all those drowned on a million worlds. I could show you other such memory sinks: the Poisoned Jungle, the Plain of Knives--"

"What do you ask?" interrupted the floating corpse.

"Why does she keep saying that?" Yasmin whispered.

"The memories are drawn to those who knew their owners in life," Garou replied. "If you recognize and name them, they are compelled to reveal a secret to you. Your mother-- or rather, the cast-off memory of your mother--will not rest until she has discharged this burden."

"What do you ask?" the dead woman said. She spoke in a monotone, devoid of emotion; yet I suspected she would follow us the length of the Styx until we had let her disclose something of her past.

Truth Golem's picture
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Hmm, you guys make some good points. After all, if rocks can keep memories (like with stone tell), I suppose corpses could, too, without interfering with the formation of memory bodies.

Geez, Kaelyn, did you just type that whole thing up? :shock:

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"Truth Golem" wrote:
Hmm, you guys make some good points. After all, if rocks can keep memories (like with stone tell), I suppose corpses could, too, without interfering with the formation of memory bodies.

Geez, Kaelyn, did you just type that whole thing up? :shock:

CUT AND PASTE. Copyright James Alan Gardner. It's on the Internets. http://www.deathstar.org/~krlipka/ps/fiction/archive/firedust.html

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Laughing out loud

Hm, quite an interesting site. Thanks for the link. Smiling

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Undead

How does being raised as undead affect petitioners?

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Re: Undead

"Sakara" wrote:
How does being raised as undead affect petitioners?

If it's an undead creature with a soul, they'd disappear from the outer planes involuntarily, thenceforth to be trapped within their decaying mortal husk until released by sweet destruction. If they were formally lemures, larvae, or manes, or if they're goths, this might well be considered an improvement.

Some people play it so that even skeletons and zombies have souls trapped within them, explaining why such magic is considered evil. I prefer to think that they don't, and it isn't, although raising someone's corpse as a zombie without permission could certainly be considered impolite.

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Re: Undead

"Kaelyn" wrote:
Some people play it so that even skeletons and zombies have souls trapped within them, explaining why such magic is considered evil. I prefer to think that they don't, and it isn't, although raising someone's corpse as a zombie without permission could certainly be considered impolite.

LOL.. "impolite". That's one way of putting it. Some people might find it slightly more offensive than, say talking with your mouth full or belching at a fancy dinner.

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Petitioners

I have no idea why inhabitants of magical worlds still insist on burying their dead, given the huge number of necromancers and weird magical beasts like Corpse Gatherers wandering around...

You would think by the 4th or 5th major undead incursion they might have learn't to cremate their dead...

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