Petitioners of Deities with Oddball Home Planes

And might I just say that that one paragraph in the sourcebook nearly turned me off of Planescape completely, it was so hideously offensive.

Primes who have the wrong idea about the Outer Planes don't dissipate or count as atheists; they show up at a plane that matches their alignment, if not in the realm of a god. If someone truly believes in nothing -- not the innate goodness or potential of man, no set of ethical principles, not even his personal strength, greeds or ambitions, just an empty shell of a soul living a life worth nothing -- then I could see him heading directly to the realm of the king of devils to be devoured. Frankly, such a soul already devoured himself.

But a NG cleric of the Great Unknown who spends his life fighting the machinations of evil, from the devils to the tanar'ri, and mending the wounds of the struggle on innocent souls wherever he can, ends up in the bottommost pit of the Nine Hells as, direct quote, "the true damned of the multiverse," because he didn't believe the gods were really gods? What a hateful piece of blind bigotry.

The reason I suspect such a line got into the setting is simple Christian theology. Atheists, according to this exceedingly common interpretation, aren't really atheists. They haven't considered and rejected the evidence for the existence of a god or the supernatural. The atheist, like all men, actually knows Jesus in his soul, and has made the choice to reject His grace out of a desire to do as he wills regardless of God's commandments. (The rational thought process that would lead anyone to take a few years of hedonism in exchange for eternal damnation is never made very clear.) So, regardless of the words or actions an atheist puts forth -- in Planescape, regardless of the alignment an atheist or Athar acts -- at the root, he is the most evil possible creature in existence, a thinking being who has rationally rejected all light and goodness in the Universe.

The line you quote equates having no religious beliefs with having no beliefs or morals at all, as many religious persons do. I trust strongly that the editors of the Planescape Campaign Setting here on this site repudiate such an offensive, bigoted notion, on which fortunately no other substantial portion of the Planescape canon rests.

I agree with you for the most part, Jem. The only disagreement is the definition of atheists. In the real world, atheists are those that do not believe in the god or gods of the religion doing the defining. In Planescape, on the other hand, I think that atheist means precisely what you said - not believing in anything, be it gods, morals, ethics, or even the lack thereof. In Planescape, the true atheists are those who waste their life in pointless idle business. Those that do not follow any of the gods, such as the Athar, are not devoured by Asmodeus or punished in any way. They simply go to the plane matching their alignment. They are the Planescape version of agnostic, so to speak, because they believe in something, just not a deity. Now, granted, real world atheists might balk at the comparison, but then again, so would real world clerics at their RPG counterparts. Personally, until I find a more suitable world, atheist will have to do. The Athar are not atheists. If anything, they are agnostic, with their belief in a multiversal power. Since Planescape, and RPG's in general, are a modified simplification of the real world, you really shouldn't take it to heart like the fundamentalists do.

MakThuumNgatha, again, do not take offense. I am in no way condemning real world atheists. I'm simply using the word with a meaning modified for the Planescape setting. By all means, suggest a better alternative.
As for the way the Forgotten Realms work, I am no expert. I remember that everybody goes to the fugue plane (Kelemvor's realm), but I wasn't aware that non-clerics went to their deity's realms. I was pretty sure that non-clergy lived in the fuge plane's city, which was composed of those that had no belief whatsoever.

Also, before this thread gets horribly derailed (which would, I admit, be entirely my fault), I notice there's another question Lorloth asked which hasn't been answered: what happens to worshipers of a deity that don't much follow that deity's alignment?

Lorloth, I'd say that the worship in that case is either not very sincere, or is only selected for a specific few aspects. A sincere worshiper would value the god's ethics, and make an effort to follow them; even if they're not perfect at it, their alignment is clearly similar to that of the deity. The person you describe here is sort of an "Easter-and-Christmas" churchgoer. In that respect, they're not really a worshiper at all. Now, that doesn't mean I think they should get mortared into a wall... they should just head to whatever plane suits their real alignment.

This leads to amusing things like a CG worshiper of a LG deity winding up on, say, Arborea, a bit flustered... and then he gets a look at the peaceful tranquillity of the realm where he might have ended up, and decides he's much better off where the fun is happening anyway! :^) Or, more seriously, a LE worshiper of that LG deity who goes to church regularly, knows the scriptures by heart, and uses them constantly to attempt to one-up others, get the community to shun people he doesn't like, excuses his own cruelties because he knows he's got special permission, being so righteous, he always follows all the rules, even "love thy neighbor," it's tough love sometimes but... ...hey. Hey! Why has he shown up in Baator? That's not right? No... no! He was good! He followed all the rules! He was better than them!

Iavas, I no where suggested that I believed that you were condemning atheists. But our society's intolerance for atheism has even found its way into DnD and outrage needs to be stirred up.

Jem, if you didn't bring up the Biblical origins of the idea that atheists are devoured by the King of the Devils, I would have. For your other point, I think that easiest solution is that being a petitioner in the realm of your god is a fate reserved for clerics and the similarly pious.

I don't think that question has really been addressed in DnD - I suppose b/c the designers have assumed if you worship X deity, you *are* going to follow their tenets, or find a god that suits you better. The idea of a disobedient believer just hasn't gotten brought up.

I'm much with Rip on this one - I would say that since you swore your soul/worshiped to that Power, the Power will have the ultimate say. I'm inclined to believe that the power will *keep* you instead of throwing you to anyone else - after all even the disobedient worshiper is still a worshiper and hence a source of belief and power. The disobedient can still serve their Power as an example to others on what not to do.

Well said Jem, well said.

Being atheist, believing that no god exists, is in no way the same thing as having no set of morals or ethics, or lacking faith in human potential. Yet that is the accusation perpetually thrown at atheists: that they have no morals, that every one of them is depraved.

Having a set of ethics and morals should without a doubt send a person to a plain of alignment. Beliefs in ethics, morality, and secular humanism are just as much beliefs and they have plenty of resonance with alignment and the planes.

If the writers of that statement meant "atheist" in the sense that Iavas thinks they might have meant it, then why didn't they just say "extremely nihilistic people who believe neither in gods nor even in morals" instead of "atheists"? The word itself has a very definite meaning and it covers members of the Athar faction as well, since AFAIK not all of them believe in the Great Beyond.

Nice system, Jem. I want to raise a couple of points:

1) Does a person stop changing after (s)he dies and becomes a petitioner? If a person can sincerely change his/her alignment multiple times during life, what is to stop them from doing the same after death? After all, even if most petitioners do not remember their lives, they retain their habits and personalities, and that includes such mutability.

2) Are there any real differences between petioners belonging to a deity and those that plomped down on the plane due to their alignment? Hades' petitioners end up looking like shades while other NE petitioners end up as larvae. Is only the shape different, as the God decrees, or is there something that changes in their nature as well? What decrees the form of a petitioner not affiliated with a deity?

3) How much should be left up to the imagination? After all, powers are called so for a reason, and no mortal is meant to fathom their ways. Even if the Athar are right and they are just really tough berks that found a way to use belief to their advantage, should we really have a definite system for which souls go where and via what conduit?

The problem with this theory, although I agree with some of it, is that it makes the deities out to be little more than the territories they control. In fact, they're willful, powerful entities with agendas of their own beyond merely acting as custodians of Outer Planar real estate. Many actually dwell on planes other than the Outer Planes - by your theory, deities like Geb (who dwells on the Elemental Plane of Earth) and Fharlanghn (who wanders the Material Plane) would receive no petitioners. Their worshipers, even the most devout, would journey to the Outer Planes to the Outer Planar territory where their deity would dwell if it chose to dwell in the Outer Planes. By your theory also, gods who dwell on planes that don't match their alignments - Ares in Arborea, Ratri in the Gray Waste, Shang-ti in Mechanus - would only receive those worshipers who are unlike them philosophically, and those who are like them philosophically would end up with no god guiding them.

Yes, your theory is much simpler, but it requires upending much of the Planescape canon. This is fine, of course, if that's what you want to do. I want to always encourage people to make the game into whatever they want. But I submit that simpler is not always better. I like the idea that the Outer Planes are not always homogeneous in their alignments - that there may be inhabitants of Elysium who are evil, and inhabitants of the Gray Waste that are good. I like things a bit messier. Things work differently in divine realms than they do in the plane as a whole.

If you were a faithful worshiper of Pelor at the time of your death, you go to Pelor. To Iavas, I would say that yes - it's possible for a petitioner to change alignments and philosophies even after death. A compassionate deity may allow a petitioner to leave if it desires to, or the petitioner may be freed or escape on its own. Celestials or fiends may arrive to "rescue" petitioners who are unhappy in their current abodes. If there is no deity involved, the petitioner may just walk to to the nearest portal on the Great Road. Or they may be happy there despite their alignment.

Alignment, and I think this bears stressing, is not the sum total of a person's personality. Someone may not agree with Obad-hai about everything but still be happier in Obad-hai's realm than she would be in the Beastlands or Elysium. This is because, though she might be neutral good, she doesn't necessarily agree with the spectrum of neutral good about everything either. She may appreciate other aspects of Obad-hai's character that have nothing to do with alignment. Or maybe she gets along with Obad-hai's neutral worshipers better than she gets along with non-neutral people who don't worship Obad-hai, because although good-natured herself there are other aspects of other neutral good peoples' characters that rub her wrong. Or maybe she wishes to spend the afterlife with some very specific people, people who she may not fully remember in the afterlife but who nontheless resonate with her soul. Maybe those people were friends and family in life, or maybe they merely should have been.

Should there be a place in the Upper Planes for such exceptions to the general "consensus" in a certain alignment? Probably - the Upper Planes are hardly homogeneous - but there should be a place in Obad-hai's realm for such people as well.

I say it's not. Signing a contract is a lawful act, but there's nothing inherently evil about it. And though contracts are lawful by nature, the fact that you've entered into one doesn't make you lawful. If you entered into it with the intention of breaking it, by your theory you should end up in Carceri or the Abyss; if signing a contract with fiends is evil, signing a contract in bad faith is certainly chaotic. The contract, however, binds the signer's soul because a soul is, in this cosmos, something that can be bound.

While your theory is very neat, I fear that personality and personal preference are not so neat. They are messy things, and I believe the planes should follow suit.

Lorloth, it is the obsession with 'self', or ego, that attracts evil clerics to evil gods and allows them to ignore their eventual fate. Evil people are largely focused on their personal power and advancement. Even when their selfishness leads them misery they maintain faith that if they just become more powerful, wealthier, or gather more followers they will be happy. Their entire existence is centered around this self, leading them to ignore (to a limited extent) the larger picture. Evil individuals with high wisdom and high intelligence can understand the large picture and understand others; but are concerned with such things only insofar as they relate to themselves (their ego). Since death necessarily involves the loss of ego (memories, skills, levels, etc.), it may as well be oblivion in the eyes of an evil man; since who they were before has passed. Because of this, damnation is an empty threat in their eyes.

In my opinion...

IF (soul) is (dedicated to and accepted by deity X) --> soul enters realm of deity X. Degree of dedication required to enter is between the mortal and the deity.
ELSE IF (soul) is (claimed by poweful planeborne being) --> soul enters into possession of powerful planeborne being. Example: Villain sells his soul to a balor for temporal power and revenge against a hated enemy.
ELSE
Soul always travels to most closely corresponding alignment plane (may be inhibited by absence of planar connection between the mortal's Prime world and said plane).

However, this is also affected by the belief system of a particular Prime world. If a Prime culture believes that everyone who doesn't die in battle (Valhalla) ends up in Hel, the soul may well end up in Niflheim, regardless of alignment. What really matters here is the DM's whim and the tone and style of a particular campaign -- but I would use the guidelines above as the default (god/planeborne/alignment plane) as the defaults unless a setting gives a reason not to.

IMO, even if a person believes in nothing (not a god, philosophy, or what have you), that still doesn't qualify him to end up being eaten by Asmodeus -- who is, after all, only one of four extreme alignment poles. Really, why him? Why LE? In the worst case, the soul might dissipate, having nothing to hold it together, but more likely it'd end up in the most appropriate alignment plane (possibly Outlands).

About the self and evil. Many believe that good = concern for others more than self and evil = concern for self more than others. However! Lots of evil belief systems approve of the destruction of a person's natural self (so that it can be remade into something more inclined to evil). LE belief systems, for example. If a person has natural tendencies toward kindness and mercy toward (chosen enemy of LE society), of course his fellows might attempt to crush them.

I think Jem has a good thought here. But if you don't agree with him Mak has a good point too. The simplest way is that the evil deity says "You are evil. You have planar lore and you know if you die you'll end up as a larva. Well, if you serve me, not only will I give you power and wealth and slaves in life, but in death you'll keep your form. You won't have to be a larva. Hey, you can even keep your memories and ego!"

The part about keeping memories may be a lie, but who would remember? The whole thing may be a lie, but it takes a lot more planar lore to know how petitioners are shaped in a particular realm, than to know that LE petitioners are lemures that bigger devils torture and trample on.

I haven't watched this movie in years, so it might be way worse than I remember it, but Al Pacino's actions as the devil in Devil's Advocate were a good example how a tricky evil being, be it a power or an exemplar, might slowly push an originally Good being into the depths of depravity without it noticing until it is too late. This also applies to clerics, who might join a cult that they thought worshipped a good power and only realize that it actually worships Evil when they are in the top tier and so embedded into and with the faith that they do not quit despite that knowledge.

I think a person goes to the place of his real alignment. Period.