Pantheon War's Casualty List

Ulden Throatbane's picture

'WithoutNationality' wrote:
The gods were always my least favorite part of Planescape. The sheer number of them and the fact they were all significant players. Reading about them is like being in Myth class back in college and remembering all those names... I prefer mortals and spirits much more.

Pettiness aside, you've done a good job. I'm pretty happy that most of them are dead so I don't have to worry about them.


(note: itallics added by me for emphasis)

Contrary to what WN said, there are actually many more deities that were not put in the Dead Book as a result of the Pantheon War. He did, however, bring up a possibility that I initially dismissed-killing off a majority of gods that have been included in Planescape, rather than merely a significant minority.

When I was deciding which Powers went for an Astral Swim following the Pantheon War, I actually held back from adding too many major powers. Of the heads of the six significant Pantheons, only Corellon got scragged. This was done to re-emphasize the seriousness of the conflict, not out of any malice towards His Elfness. A major aspect of Planescape, as presented, is exploring the realms of deities and becoming intimately involved in their affairs, and I was worried that killing off too many would adversely affect this part of the setting.

Nevertheless, there are an awful lot of deities that inhabit Planescape. Paring them down to something more manageable is something I would like to do.

What are your thoughts on this?

Kestral's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-03-27
Pantheon War's Casualty List

Personally, I favor leaving most of the gods weakened, but alive at the end of the Ragnarok War/Pantheon War. Gods can be viewed as personified belief, which means that as long as their followers believe, it's very possible they will come back, even from apparent death. I'm personally Ok with leaving a few major Powers in the Dead Book, but on the whole, I feel that at the end of it, only a few of the major powers should have died. (However, much of the Norse pantheon should be gone, if we are to interpret the Pantheon War as the Norse's Gotterdammerung, leaving Baldr and a few others as survivors.)

I'm also not big on too heavily damaging most of the godly realms as a result, too. In the Lower Planes, I can certainly see that any losers would get taken over; such is life in the fiendish regions. Not as much in the Upper planes, though.

I could see some enterprising deities using neutrality in the War to become heads of single-god religions, so that they don't have to share belief, though. This means some pantheons may undergo some degree of civil war, and other gods may just take what they can.

What I suggest doing to pare down work as well as allowing the number of deities to be more easily adjusted is essentially saying "We're not going to describe all of the major pantheons' deities in detail. We'll update certain ones, describe newly powerful pantheons, and provide lists showing who belongs to what pantheon, if there have been changes and additions. Other than that, use pre-existing material for descriptions of the gods and what their portfolios are." This way, you pare down the number you have to those who need updating/addition. You also can in the process describe which pantheons have suffered losses without describing all of the lost deities. (This leaves the decision to the numbers of up to individual GMs without creating a gap between 'official' UPS vs. individual games necessarily)

Give info on the important stuff, leave the rest out. Have a few Powers die to restate the destructiveness of the war, but be careful to not do too much damage; part of the reason the Blood War happens is that the side of Good happens to be powerful enough to largely rebuff fiendish advancements into their territory. If you are too destructive, it would upset the balance of power, and that would mean figuring out just HOW the probable fiendish incursions would be stopped.

WithoutNationality's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-05-28
Pantheon War's Casualty List

As a rule, I think most of the gods should die, not just for the comments I posted above. However, it's possible that the previously slain gods have resurrected due to the clamors of their worshippers, and so are alive... but changed. They now get most of their worship under the veil of new-age mysticism. Essentially, they're all lying low. That'd suit much better the attitude the modern day has toward the old gods.

Either that, or they may have joined the Hindu pantheon, something which I will be writing about later.

Bob the Efreet's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2004-05-11
Pantheon War's Casualty List

'Kestral' wrote:
use pre-existing material for descriptions of the gods and what their portfolios are.

The gods are manifest belief. Why shouldn't they change with the rest of the outer planes?

__________________

Pants of the North!

Daylen's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-04-16
Pantheon War's Casualty List

wooho! kill more elves!!!

Kestral's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-03-27
Pantheon War's Casualty List

'Bob the Efreet' wrote:
'Kestral' wrote:
use pre-existing material for descriptions of the gods and what their portfolios are.

The gods are manifest belief. Why shouldn't they change with the rest of the outer planes?

For most of them, their base portfolios don't really NEED to change, as far as I can tell. That's all I'm saying. Certainly, a few will have, but those are the ones we'd be focusing on. A god of magic isn't terribly likely to change portfolio much, if magic is still around, unless their focus has expanded by a large margin, or has completely changed focus. Same for a god of war. Their portfolio still likely covers their general abilities, so it's not terribly unreasonable to say 'their base portfolio hasn't changed' for many of the gods listed in D&D books already.

Essentially, all I'm saying is that we limit our focus to those whose stats which we have confirmed as being changed by the events of the Pantheon War and later eras, rather than trying to workup new portfolios for most of the gods listed in the D&D books while adding new gods.

Assuming we add the Russian, Chinese, Hindu, Shinto, and Voudun (it's a modern religion, and therefore probably one of the ones we'll need to include) pantheons, we're talking over a hundred major deities to add. Deities and Demigods has a large number, and it's a 200 page book. We would be essentially making 2 full books in one go if we follow the look at everyone route: a complete revision of Deities and Demigods', Defenders of the Faith's, Oriental Adventures', and Complete Divine's deity lists, as well as making a new book roughly equivalent to Deities and Demigods. That would be at most 1 chapter of the full setting.

If we kill off most of the gods, we're also saying that ALL Primes lost their faith in their gods, which I doubt. Many of these religions, except the long-dead ones, have had groups that believe in them to this day. Some have had various revivals over time. This makes it questionable that, over a multiverse, they would have all died permanently.

WithoutNationality's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-05-28
Pantheon War's Casualty List

Quote:
If we kill off most of the gods, we're also saying that ALL Primes lost their faith in their gods, which I doubt. Many of these religions, except the long-dead ones, have had groups that believe in them to this day. Some have had various revivals over time. This makes it questionable that, over a multiverse, they would have all died permanently.

I think a vast majority would die. Not permanently though. When they wake up from the sleep, no one believes them anymore, most of their believers have lost faith or got killed when monotheism took over. They're crippled essentially, they aren't players in politics anymore. They're just trying to scrape enough belief together to maintain themselves. That's really dead enough to me. We don't have to write descriptions on all the deities. We just have to acknowledge the pantheon existed and what the major players are doing now.

The world belongs to monotheism now. Even Hinduism is essentially a monotheistic religion (all the "different" gods are in fact just different representations of the same God). I think we should reflect that.

wgar's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-01-10
Pantheon War's Casualty List

I think that it could be better if we think of this as it happened here on Earth. All ancient western religions were almost killed before the Middle Age, with only a few groups remaining faithfull to these religions. Catholicism became the dominant religion, until now, where we are experiencing a revival of old religions (especially the Celtic religion, because of this Wicca thing...).

If we think in a multiversal perspective, maybe there were different worlds where different monotheistical religions appeared after the Pantheon War - St. Cuthbert's church has potencial on this matter in Oerth, for example. So, instead of being inhabited by entire pantheons with multi-sphere influence, there would be single gods with single-sphere influence (sometimes with two, but that's rare) and de-organized remainings of old pantheons with little influence on a handful of spheres where they are re-discovered by people.

Daylen's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-04-16
Pantheon War's Casualty List

um monotheistic deities would have all portfolios. otherwise they would be part of a pantheion where everyone splits duties. thats why deities of old didn't like those who tried to be monotheistic, they weren't sharing the belief wealth. for instance in christianity what is their deity's portfolio? everything right? or have you heard of him being called god of ________?

Almighty Watashi's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-11-22
Pantheon War's Casualty List

Deities&Demigods had IIRC Taia. She was a goddes of the sun and had everything at once Smiling

deadone's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-10-26
Pantheon War's Casualty List

My opinion?
Fire up the grill boys, where havin' god steak tonight!
Obviously, this call goes out mainly to those with a rock based diet.

Daylen's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-04-16
Pantheon War's Casualty List

um watashi were you agreeing with me or trying to disagree?

Almighty Watashi's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-11-22
Pantheon War's Casualty List

Actually, I'm just trying to help with information.

I have no opinion and want no opinion because more I read about modern deities, more this modern planescape idea starts to depress me. So I'll just sit in the back and wait for this thing to resolve itself without me Laughing out loud

Almighty Watashi's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-11-22
Pantheon War's Casualty List

However this situation is resolved, this might be a good pantheon for modern european wiccas:

[url]/portals/node/]

Clueless's picture
Offline
Webmonkey
Joined: 2008-06-30
Pantheon War's Casualty List

From what I recall pulling in the Russian dieties (who don't really fit the Wiccan set terribly well, but they definately have their own coolness) was on the list of things to do. Don't forget, we've decided that Earth - our Earth - is just one of many undiscovered Primes out there for UPS, there's no reason to closely follow the patterns laid out on our own planet - and every reason *not* to.

Daylen's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-04-16
Pantheon War's Casualty List

what exactly is so depressing?

WithoutNationality's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-05-28
Pantheon War's Casualty List

Quote:
I have no opinion and want no opinion because more I read about modern deities, more this modern planescape idea starts to depress me.

Hey, wait, you can't say stuff like this without saying why. All protests must be heard, all ideas must be put forward.

Quote:
I'll be the first to admit that my idea of God is pretty different. I believe in a God with a long white beard, a gold crown, and a long robe with lots of shiny jewels on it. He sits on a big throne in the clouds, and He's about five hundred feet tall. He talks in a real deep voice like "I...AM...GOD!" He can blow up stuff just by looking at it. This is my own, personal idea of God.

I'm sure you can encorporate him in your UPS game if your worried about that... Laughing out loud

Almighty Watashi's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-11-22
Pantheon War's Casualty List

'Clueless' wrote:
From what I recall pulling in the Russian dieties (who don't really fit the Wiccan set terribly well,

Maybe it's just because I live in CE europe, but here most of the witches i know about are based on the slavic religion/magic :oops:

Clueless's picture
Offline
Webmonkey
Joined: 2008-06-30
Pantheon War's Casualty List

Probably an area thing. I'd classify them more as pagans as opposed to Wiccans which has a fairly distinct (and non-Slavic pantheonic) theology. Sort of like how Nordic pagans or Asatru worshippers don't like to have that mixup.

Almighty Watashi's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-11-22
Pantheon War's Casualty List

'Daylen' wrote:
what exactly is so depressing?

Planescape was about belief and a whole bunch of ancient deities mixed together in one wheel. If you remove that, you lost a good part of a setting. If you keep it, it looks silly because they are powered by belief and who in nine hells believes in Zeus anymore?. If you try to change it into a modern perspective, you have to tiptoe around people's current real-life beliefs and that just plain sicks Sad

Daylen's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-04-16
Pantheon War's Casualty List

well one can tiptoe around it by having old gods do new tricks.

example: Zeus becomes christianities God, Apollo becomes their Jesus.

and of course one doesn't have to condense it down to one pantheon. just mix it up a bit and change some old deities for new ones. Of course we still would need to be sure the planes didn't become centered around something other than belief.

Ulden Throatbane's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-02-02
Pantheon War's Casualty List

A note for anyone who has not read the FAQ:

Christianity is NOT going to have an official part of Planescape, nor will anything from Earth. There will be plenty of analogies, but actual real-world religions are going to be kept out. Otherwise, it's just a matter of time before people get offended and this forum transforms into fark.com

As for Zeus, he's banished to Gehenna at the end of the war. He would have landed in Baator if he weren't too big a blowhard for Asmodeus's liking. Not surprising, Zeus is a wee bit upset about this turn of events.

Apollo's fate is up in the air.

Almighty Watashi's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-11-22
Pantheon War's Casualty List

So... Is sigil gonna feature temples or churches? Laughing out loud

Ulden Throatbane's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-02-02
Pantheon War's Casualty List

'Almighty Watashi' wrote:
So... Is sigil gonna feature temples or churches? Laughing out loud

yes. Eye-wink

Almighty Watashi's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-11-22
Pantheon War's Casualty List

Hmm... church of ilmater :twisted:

Ulden Throatbane's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-02-02
Pantheon War's Casualty List

'Almighty Watashi' wrote:
Hmm... church of ilmater :twisted:

For some reason, I think you're confusing Ilmater with Loviatar

Almighty Watashi's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-11-22
Pantheon War's Casualty List

lol Laughing out loud

Login or register to post comments
Planescape, Dungeons & Dragons, their logos, Wizards of the Coast, and the Wizards of the Coast logo are ©2008, Wizards of the Coast, a subsidiary of Hasbro Inc. and used with permission.