Outlands, Alignment, and 4e

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Jem
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Outlands, Alignment, and 4e

Couple of thoughts on this. Partially rambling. Feel free to ramble along with.

If you've got a Sigil as a City of Doors, and you've got an Outlands with a bunch of gate-towns with portals leading to various afterlife-planes populated by gods, their favored dead, and their servants, then you have a big chunk of Planescape right there, in my opinion. Now, alignment appears to have bitten it in 4e, so arranging 16 planes in a neat circle may have to bite it as well. It doesn't have to -- whatever genius loci governs the Outlands may have a fetish for categorizing and dividing the various planes, demanding that various godly Domains stand in logical relation to one another. But this does lead to a couple of possibilities that we might be able to take advantage of.

1.) The Great Wheel stays the same. The Outlands, a plane of balance and opposites, arranges itself so that gates to planes of allied gods cluster closely together, and gates to planes of gods likely to come into conflict are kept as far apart as metaphysically feasible. This winds up with something much like the Great Wheel.

1a.) But it doesn't have to be exact! For example, it might be more of an Egg: the gates to Upper Planes would naturally cluster more closely together, and those to Lower Planes would repel each other almost as much as they repelled those to Upper Planes, leading to a wider spread. Roads and trade would be easier to maintain for Upper Planes, and in case of attack those gods could support each other more easily, while wider spacing between the Lower Planes makes it inconvenient to troop Blood War armies across the Outlands.

2.) We could rewrite it entirely. Perhaps the gate to Pandemonium must be found high in the jet stream, the tiny gate-town a crazy-quilt collection of flying carpets, floating rocks, and hot-air balloons chasing it around (and sometimes being outpaced by the gate, and having to dash after it). The gate to Limbo appears anywhere someone wants it to if they build an appropriate key, though you never know when and just have to wait and be ready for the opportunity. (Although maybe Limbo has been replaced entirely.) Farthest from the Spire is Faunel, which moves further out every time some idiot tries to pave a road to it. The gate to Mechanus never seems to change its position or distance from the Spire, and so Automata is taken as the "Prime Meridian" of the plane. Etc.

2a.) And what do we do with "unaligned" anyway? Guess they show up at an appropriate god's Domain, or suitably comfortable plane.

3.) Maybe they shift around on occasion. For playability's sake, the Outlands needs to have some sort of predictable trade and travel routes, so that adventures can be planned there, but having a few different logics that shift at regular intervals makes a bit more of a balance between law and chaos. Perhaps every few months you have a short interval where Curst finds itself surrounded at three equidistant points by Excelsior, Automata, and Fortitude, while the citizens of Rigus and Glorium look forward to the rush of profits from arms sales during the days when those two towns are within a day's march of each other.

ripvanwormer's picture
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Factol
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Outlands, Alignment, and 4e

Something I suggested in another thread is giving the Outlands 30 rings rather than nine, and having them affect all class abilities equally rather than penalizing magical or divine spellcasters disproportionately.

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Outlands, Alignment, and 4e

i kinda like the the idea the it only affects psionic and magical powers, as it makes it interesting when other classes have the upper hand.

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Jem
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Outlands, Alignment, and 4e

The Great Road itself as a Domain, populated and maintained by gods who either feel that accessibility and travel is ultimately a good, or that "common carrier neutrality" is an important principle, so all who desire the use of the Road may use it. (Evil powers would like using it, but I'm momentarily stumped to come up with one that would have a good philosophical reason to be willing to shell out divine energy to maintain it.) Or, alternatively, a network of roads that stretch between guideposts at participating Domains, which explains why Isis will cheerfully cooperate in maintaining a road to Garl Glittergold's Domain, and he to Moradin's, but you won't find a direct route from any of their places to Carceri....

A literal road, existing for perhaps a subjective mile ahead and behind of the planewalkers, that stretches between Domains. The Astral Sea washes about on either side, and the walkers outside of a protecting vessel move slowly and with little protection, but if you lack the magic or the money for one of those enchanted rigs the Road is one of your few choices for getting around the Planes, especially if the Domain you're looking for is a minor one without a gate-town on the Outlands, or with a known gate in Sigil, or the City of Glass.

-----

The Littoral. One might still be able to reach the Hinterlands by heading away from the Spire while maintaining an intention to remain within the Outlands, but if I understand the new cosmology correctly the standard effect of going this route would be to reach the Astral Sea. And since the Astral is now a sea, apparently with a navigable surface and everything, why not gank some oceanic terminology for it? The Littoral would be the Outlands' "beach" -- an area where the Silver Sea washes up on the shores of the Domain... though, to what effect?

(And, b'god, what's under the surface. Astral Dreadnoughts as sea monsters...)

Jem
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Outlands, Alignment, and 4e

I do agree that there should be 30 rings now, but also agreed on the rings only affecting magical and psionic powers, the obviously supernatural stuff. In many places, you want classes to be equally effective, but for the occasional game people sometimes like to "star" a particular role. There ought to be places where a basher with a sword is needed to protect his bookworm, temporarily powered-down friend.

And I'm not entirely certain since I don't have the PHB, but powers of the "Martial" source are basically examples of skill and leadership, not magic, right? I'd be hard pressed to explain how the Spire would dampen that sort of ability. The Grey Waste, now, that I can see seriously dampening leadership powers. Maybe even fancy weaponplay.

"Charge!" "...enh."

"I'll carve my name into your... oh, just slice the foul thing already."

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Outlands, Alignment, and 4e

'Jem' wrote:
I do agree that there should be 30 rings now, but also agreed on the rings only affecting magical and psionic powers, the obviously supernatural stuff. In many places, you want classes to be equally effective, but for the occasional game people sometimes like to "star" a particular role. There ought to be places where a basher with a sword is needed to protect his bookworm, temporarily powered-down friend.

I could enjoy a plane where magic (or psionics) is boosted, but warriors get to enjoy Vancian sword-swinging. "You can only swing your sword X number of times today. After that, you get too tired and can only use your fists."

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Outlands, Alignment, and 4e

'Jem' wrote:
I do agree that there should be 30 rings now, but also agreed on the rings only affecting magical and psionic powers, the obviously supernatural stuff.

Why? The Spire is a place of balance, not mundanity. What justification, cosmically, is there for it penalizing magic specifically? Especially in a multiverse where a fighter is as effective as a spellcaster of the same level, it's not sensible to assume that spellcasters are better at upsetting the Balance than fighters are. If the Spire only affects supernatural powers, it makes things less balanced than they normally are, which is antithetical to the nature of the Outlands. It makes it easier for fighter-types to upset the Balance without spellcasters to restrain them.

Targeting just magical effects makes some sense in editions that included wish spells and the like, which are potentially reality-damaging. Even then, it doesn't explain why first level spells are damaging to the Balance but the skills of a powerful fighter are not.

And, of course, the Spire was never limited to only supernatural effects. It suppresses the effects of poison as well, officially. So there's no consistent rationale that supports it effecting the supernatural only.

Quote:
And I'm not entirely certain since I don't have the PHB, but powers of the "Martial" source are basically examples of skill and leadership, not magic, right? I'd be hard pressed to explain how the Spire would dampen that sort of ability.

Before you say things like that, you need to consider exactly what magic it is, and what the Spire does to dampen it. What do magic, psionics, and poison have in common that the Spire attacks? Does the Spire inherently dampen energy types? It seems to me that we could easily say that the Spire is as likely to suppress the biochemical energy used in combat (and metabolizing poison) as the mental energy of psionics or the external energy of magic or the energy of the divine.

The Spire is Balance incarnate. It seeks to make everything even. This is the fluff that justifies any game mechanic you seek to define it with.

A great excuse for making fighters the "star" of an adventure would be a material planar world where magic is inhibited or doesn't work. But a site as central and iconic as the Spire? That shouldn't be prejudiced against any class or race, even if such an idea was justified philosophically by the themes of the plane.

It's not. It never has been. It'd be better to remove the idea of the Spire suppressing anything (except possibly divine power) than to have it continue to pick favorites among the character classes.

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Outlands, Alignment, and 4e

That seems kind of bland...weakening everything til it's all zero.

High level caster? Nope, you're at the Spire. No spells.

Master Swordsman? Nope. Spire. You suck.

Top Chef? Nope. Spire. You can't make toast.

Although it is an interesting concept...why would the Spire only affect abilities? Why not personality traits? Physical straights? What if people who spend to much time at the Spire all start to look alike (similar in a way to the "entrapping" of Hades and Elysium).

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Outlands, Alignment, and 4e

'Githyankee' wrote:
Top Chef? Nope. Spire. You can't make toast.

Sig-worthy! Cool

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what if the spire suppresses the ability for matter and energy to interact with each other. that isnt very clear, so examples: your mage can cast his wish spell, he loses the spell from his memory, but the energy cannot effect anything and so the spells is wasted (but still used). your master swordsman can enact her inst-o-slay maneuver, but her sword doesnt break the skin (or breaks the skin but no blood flows). all characters slowly cease aging as they approach the spire. at the base of the spire time objectively literally stands still, yet people can still subjectively converse with others at the base of the spire (this might lead to interesting time paradoxii (is that a word? is the multiple version of paradox just paradox?) and doppler effects involving different sides of each circle. people at the very base of the spire wouldnt even be heard by those further away, and wouldnt seem to move. though each time you looked at them they might be in a different place or position.) -you- can do whatever you like, but it wont effect anyone else.

it would explain why poison ceases to work, and why spells dont work... and give a reason why weapons/martial skills dont work, even why you cant make toast. and still makes the spire the iconic and unique neutral ground.

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