Not forbidden ones, but what actual gods are you using for the Planet? Are you using the standard D&D ones and ones we already know or does Ortho have it's own pantheon?
I'd like to know about it for my own games.
Ortho's Gods
Mon, 2007-11-19 05:07
#1
Ortho's Gods
Mon, 2007-11-19 15:09
#3
Ortho's Gods
Here's the PDF, it's only half written, but it's the best compilation of Ortho stuff we have. The gods are near the bottom, in one of our more complete sections. Note that we're editing the story of Alae to remove the ill conceived Rape is Love aspect.
Sun, 2007-12-02 17:57
#4
Ortho's Gods
The basic principle for Ortho is that it had an original pantheon, the Lords of Order and the Lords of Chaos (and an unamed number of now dead or forgotten gods). Over the years - by deliberate design - the Harmonium has managed to convert the worship of other deities into worship of the Lords, rather like the way Christianity infiltrated pagan europe and the 'Romanisation' of foreign gods into the Roman Empire's pantheon.
Lords of Order
Didairdin, Lord of Discipline - Military, Agriculture, Children. Formally the god of war
Iathiphos, Lord of Bookkeepers - Scribes, Copyists, Proper Knowledge, Invention
Rialondru, Lord of Hierarchy - Obedience, Authority, the Harmonium. Formally the god of kings and nobles.
Alae, Lord of Peace and Harmony - Peace, Harmony. Formally the god of martyrs and healing.
Tyerusus, Lord of Death and Judgment - Judges, Courts, Justice, Peacemaking. Formerly judged all the souls of the people of Ortho.
Ina, Lord of Silence - Secrets, Things that are forbidden to speak of.
Saeduenical, Lord of Watchfulness - Divinations, Sins and Confessions, Police, Military Scouts, Spies
Baelae, Lord of Music - Music, Composition, Marches
Lords of Chaos
Kabajij, Lord of Tricks - Tricksters, Pranks, Fire, Inspiration.
Lanimin, Lord of Arts - Creative Writing, Visual Arts, Invention
Chal, Lord of Ruin - Destruction, Revolution, Rebellion, Free Thought
Namaneil, Lord of Filth - Disease, Famine, Plague, Perversion
Ghanalim, Lord of Death - Betrayal, Murder, Assassination
Ina, Lord of Silence - Secrets, Things that are forbidden to speak of.
Olinem, The Lord of Luck - Luck, Fools, Blind Trust, Love.
Jislana, Lord of Dance - Dancing, Freedom, Martial Arts.
'Lost or Forgotten' Gods
The Forbidden Goddess (Mogranhu)
Aorrus – Dreams, Inspiration, and Intoxication
Gods on the 'Aproved List'
Chung Kuel
Hieroneous
Koriel
K'ung Fu-tzu
Lao Tzu
Paladine
Saint Cuthbert
Shang-ti
Torm
Tyr
From PDF: "Other lawful deities have managed to get small footholds within the colonies are on the approved list, but have not yet indicated an interest in joining the planar pantheon."
The vast majority of people on Ortho worship the Lords of Order (its considered 'harmoniuous'). Since the Harmonium spread to other worlds and planes however, a number of other deities have been 'approved' for worship by devout Hardheads. The churches of Ortho would like these new gods to eventually be amalgamated into the 'Lords of Order' as others have been, but that's still a long way off - and its not certain to happen. Hieroneous and Cuthbert are unlikely to become mere 'aspects of Didairdin' for example, unless their homeworld of Oerth becomes a Harmonium Province for several hundred years... not that the Harmonium aren't trying; as far as they're concerned, everyone has to join the Harmonium and do what's best for Unity - and that includes the gods.
The Lords of Chaos and 'forgotten gods' of Ortho are basically defeated at present, but still have a toehold on the world.
Sun, 2007-12-02 21:06
#5
Ortho's Gods
Note that Ina holds a membership in both pantheons as a double double agent. In this regard, if it's not explicitly stated somewhere it's certainly implied - so for us as the writers point of view let's state it: Ina is the representation of Truth - a greater deity - that became absent during the creation of the original pantheon. She is attempting to reconcile the family or at least keep some sanity amongst the two halves. Hence, her actions tend to balance and conceal the presence of the Lords of Chaos.
Mon, 2007-12-03 05:52
#6
Ortho's Gods
In a sense, Ina represents unity and balance. That the gods of Ortho are one pantheon no matter how much the Lords of Order would expunge the influence of chaos in their world. She's certainly one of the more interesting deities detailed so far.
Tue, 2007-12-04 17:43
#7
Ortho's Gods
Since we added a Dragons place, I think Bahamut should be approved and possibly Tiamat.
You also know my opinion on Hextor.
Also, Marduk because that was the god of the Paladin in "Fires of Dis." Marduk also has a Realm in Arcadia.
Tue, 2007-12-04 18:23
#8
Ortho's Gods
I sort of want to keep the Ortho's gods as "original flavor" as possible. Cuthbert got in because he's always been connected to the Harmonium in PS canon, and I don't mind having a couple others to show how connected Ortho is to the planes, but one thing I absolutely do not want is gods from other settings swooping in and drowning out the Lords. Especially if those gods are racial deities.
What racial deities do is turn interesting races with plenty of room for variation and exploration into cardboard cutouts that are only as interesting as the painfully bland gods they worship. Just look at Dwarves. Bahamut is cool, I guess, but I'd rather the dragons just worshiped Didairdin or Tyerusus or whoever in dragon form.
I'm also not sure about adding a real god like Marduk to an otherwise entirely ficitonal pantheon. I know real-world gods are all over the place in PS, but I really don't want Ortho to be like Forgotten Realms where real gods (or, more accurately, caricatures thereof) exist alongside ones we just made up in this weird mishmash. Besides, I don't trust myself to portray a god like Marduk in a way that's faithful and respectful to real-world mythology (not that that ever stopped TSR).
Tue, 2007-12-04 18:32
#9
Ortho's Gods
For me, I tend to think that it runs the potential of making Ortho too much into a Prime Material world like any other. Part of the "flavor" of Ortho is that, despite it's best efforts, it's a cosmopolitan setting. It's a setting where they've journeyed to the Heavens of other worlds and encountered other cultures that have added their religions to the Ortho Harmonium.
I view the Lords of Order sort of like Catholicism in some ways. No matter how hard they bend over to incorporate things. There's going to be Islam and other faiths that refuse to be incorporated.
For me, I think that making the Dragons worship the Lords of Order just enforces the Harmonium's deeply wrong view. That the world is one that the Lords of Order have dominion over. The Dragons know better. They're creatures of Bahamut and no matter how hard the Harmonium tries, their gods are not all encompassing. Likewise, the same for all their conversion efforts on other worlds.
Of course, given I *LOVE* The Forgotten Realms and consider it's place as one where Sune is Aphrodite, Helm is Heimdale, and Tyr is a god who went from CG to LG....your mileage my vary. I respect your view on mixing RL and Planescape but I don't share it.
Tue, 2007-12-04 18:53
#10
Ortho's Gods
Yeah, but why should Ortho's dragons worship an Oerthian/Torilian dragon god like Bahamut in the first place. They're on a different planet! They don't have to have the same gods as bunch of extra-terrestrial dragons they've never met. They don't even have to have gods at all! These aren't FR dragons on Greyhawk dragons, they're Ortho dragons! They could worship the Lords. They could worship spirits. They could worship abstract principles like "remembrance." Hell, they could even worship themselves! The options are limitless. Why squander that by giving them the same boring old dragon god everyone else has?
As for the real gods thing, to each his or her own, I guess, but I have to ask. If you give Tyr a different character, different mythology, different set of believers, and a different role in a different pantheon, is he really even Tyr anymore?
Tue, 2007-12-04 19:06
#11
Ortho's Gods
Yeah, but why should Ortho's dragons worship an Oerthian/Torilian dragon god like Bahamut in the first place. They're on a different planet!
Because Bahamut created all Dragons everywhere. You can't even mention Paladine on Krynn, really, because Paladine is pretty much Bahamut in almost all respects.
The options are limitless. Why squander that by giving them the same boring old dragon god everyone else has?
Because hes the God of Dragons. Just like Corellon is the God of Elves and the Gods of Dwarves. Why would a bunch of gods create a race identical to another one on a different plane, when it makes much more sense to have gods create their race in their own image?
As for the real gods thing, to each his or her own, I guess, but I have to ask. If you give Tyr a different character, different mythology, different set of believers, and a different role in a different pantheon, is he really even Tyr anymore?
Absolutely.
Tyr is a character whom, in my campaign, the transformation from a much more wild Aesir like character to a more civilized deity of law and justice is one that is an important part of his characterization. It helps make the Gods much more real if you treat them like evolving and existing characters than embodiments of principles that must remain static at all times.
Is Thor from Marvel Comics the same as real Thor? Certainly not, however, the stories of Thor are enriched for their Mythological heritage but wouldn't be nearly as entertaining if they had to stick with the characterization that was the same as it was 1000+ years ago.
The Lords of Order and Lords of Chaos are the Gods of Ortho but they're not necessarilly the only gods that world has ever had. They're not necessarilly even the most important ones. While I certainly like the idea that they've been worshiped by multiple cultures with multiple faces, the very inclusion of Lost Gods implies a very good thing that we don't know how much of their influence has been spread by the Harmonium in their crusade.
I'm not suggesting that Ortho should have Moradin, Corellon, and Garl Glittergold today but leaving it ambiguous as to how much the Harmonium has wiped out/extinguished in their conversion duties makes the setting all the more interesting.
I certainly differ to the group's decision but I'm very much Pro-Ortho being a part of the greater D&D cosmology as opposed to totally isolated like Athas in Dark Sun was or Eberron is today.
Tue, 2007-12-04 19:49
#12
Ortho's Gods
Because Bahamut created all Dragons everywhere. You can't even mention Paladine on Krynn, really, because Paladine is pretty much Bahamut in almost all respects.
Because hes the God of Dragons. Just like Corellon is the God of Elves and the Gods of Dwarves. Why would a bunch of gods create a race identical to another one on a different plane, when it makes much more sense to have gods create their race in their own image?
Ortho is a different setting. That means it has a different sphere, different rules, and a different history. Just because Bahamut or Paladine created the dragons on their worlds, doesn't mean they created the dragons on Ortho. Remember, gods are entities of belief. The draconic pantheon created the dragons because people believe they did. On Ortho, people believe different things, so why should the gods be the same?
Tue, 2007-12-04 19:52
#13
Ortho's Gods
Ortho is a different setting.
Edited reply:
Actually, I agree its a very different setting and there's no reason "Per say" to have the racial pantheons incorporated into Ortho. But I think it enriches the setting to make it so that the Lords of Order are not necessarilly the only gods that have ever been worshiped on Ortho. I think the fact that they've gone to different planes and worlds should enrich the setting beyond the Lords of Order even if the Harmonium has crushed almost all religions but the Lords of Order on Ortho.
Sat, 2007-12-08 06:32
#14
Ortho's Gods
It's a setting where they've journeyed to the Heavens of other worlds and encountered other cultures that have added their religions to the Ortho Harmonium
I'd say it was the other way round: The Harmonium ethos is all about going to new places and making the local populous except their way - that's why there's plenty of LG enemies of the Harmonium.
Without trying to just repeating the arguments above, the Lords of Order and Chaos are this setting's gods. Every time we introduce a foreign one, we lesson their impact and the uniqueness of their situation. I'm especially wary of introducing evil gods to the pantheon, as its opposed to many of the fundamental principles of the Way of Harmony. They're not about 'order above all', after all.
To comment briefly on the "Christianisation" example you give, remember that the local deities weren't added to the pantheon, they were consumed and became part of the ritual, but with a new name and face.
...Because Bahamut created all Dragons everywhere.
I don't think that's actually said anywhere. Each world stands alone with its own creation myth and deities, because that's how they were created. Dragons worship various deities (including as creator goods) in various different settings. If you're on a Babylonian Pantheon world (they're planescape canon too) for example, Tiamat is the (dead) progenitor of the gods, goddess of primal chaos with no dragon-like attachments at all - and that's the truth (on that world). Although Planescape tries to tie the cosmology together, it still doesn't make 'sense' (i.e. there's directly contradictory statements) and that's part of Planescape's charm. My point though is that there's no rule that says all dragons were created by one God, or indeed any racial gods. There's just one option, that not everybody takes.
My point is that I think we should stick to the Ortho pantheon as much as possible, because its the world of Ortho. I think it makes more sense from a setting-design view as well; the Lords of Order (and Chaos) are thematically very important to the style of Ortho, and I don't want to muddy the waters with other gods if at all possible. I don't think its that kind of setting.
Sat, 2007-12-08 11:12
#15
Ortho's Gods
I see the "cosmopolitan" areas as the colonies, especially the planar colonies. In Sigil, for example, there will be Harmonium worshipers of virtually any lawful religion, and Arcadia will be only slightly less accepting (evil deities will be much more frowned-upon in Arcadia, particularly Tiamat so close to Marduk's realm). I don't think there's anything in the Book of the Harmonium - at least not the versions planars are permitted to see - insisting on the worship of Ortho's native gods. Their first goal is to gain converts, so anyone willing to submit to Harmonium laws gets in.
Eventually, yeah, the ultimate goal is to subsume all gods into Ortho's simple dichotomy. The authorities on Ortho would prefer that Pelor become an aspect of Alae, Bahamut an aspect of Tyerusus, St. Cuthbert an aspect of Saeduenical, and Corellon Larethian an aspect of Lanimin. Diversity must be simplified, the better to fit on their eight-note scale. But that's a long, loooooong way off.
Sat, 2007-12-08 16:17
#16
Ortho's Gods
Eventually, yeah, the ultimate goal is to subsume all gods into Ortho's simple dichotomy. The authorities on Ortho would prefer that Pelor become an aspect of Alae, Bahamut an aspect of Tyerusus, St. Cuthbert an aspect of Saeduenical, and Corellon Larethian an aspect of Lanimin. Diversity must be simplified, the better to fit on their eight-note scale. But that's a long, loooooong way off.
I don't think that the Harmonium should be trying to make all religions into the Lords of Order.
But while I bow to the wishes of the majority, I'd prefer that the Dragonspire's God remain Bahamut and Tiamat. Likewise, I am going with Hextor if there's no more objections for my write up for my hobgoblins. I won't introduce anymore gods but I have no interest in writing up Lords of Order worshiping Hobgoblins.
I won't however, add any more gods by your decree.
Fri, 2007-12-14 16:05
#17
Ortho's Gods
With the permission of the group, I'm going to expand on the Lords of Chaos entries to full blown Deity descriptions. I'll attempt to keep everything written as is or just re-phrased.
Anyone have a problem with this?
Sat, 2007-12-15 00:42
#18
Ortho's Gods
>_>
<_<
And besides, Io is the leader of the draconic pantheon, who created the dragons AND Bahamut and Tiamat. 
Sat, 2007-12-15 02:29
#19
Ortho's Gods
>_>
<_<
And besides, Io is the leader of the draconic pantheon, who created the dragons AND Bahamut and Tiamat.
Bah, I say.
Io is what we call a bad idea.
Sat, 2007-12-15 07:22
#20
Ortho's Gods
And that's exactly the problem. Too many suppliments. Too many deities. 
As it happens I was browsing my printed PDF for things still undone and the lack of info on the Chaos Gods was glaring. I like having a writeup on the god from the Hardhead POV and then the real truth, but I don't know whether you'd want to include that in the individual writups or a seperate section? Eventually we're supposed to be having an "Ina's Lore" chapter for secrets of the Harmonium...
I don't know of the top of my head, but to keep this thread up until someone on the Ortho Project sees it, I know that St. Cuthbert, Tyr (and probably anything else a palladin would worship) are state-approved gods.