And I notice that the "old nations" of Ortho aren't going to correspond exactly to the provinces that were established after the Schism. So I should have said "nations" instead of "provinces," and there should be something about breaking the rebel nations by splitting them into provinces - particularly Thaera, with its three parts.
Ortho: The Beginnings
I'll clean it all up in the end so it makes sense - I'll probably have the alternate governing style in our chapter on all the alternate ideas we've generated so far.
I'm not sure I like the idea that three of the Councilors are subordinate to three others. Yet, I don't like the idea that the Composer's second-in-command (a Mover 5) is equal to the Composer, either. Also, which Mover 5 would it be? There are two in The Factol's Manifesto: Killeen Kaine and Tovat Shar, and they were supposed to be equal in status, each of them equally likely to become factol after Sarin (of course, the factolship went to Faith instead, a defiance against the established hierarchy which represented an open revolt against Ortho by the planar faction).
I think overall I prefer a single Harmonium Councilor and a single religious Councilor.
Hm... true. That does cause a conflict of interest there. I'll poke a little harder and see what I can sort out. I was tryign to do the trinity of authority figures (state, temple, harmonium) and felt that three was a really *small* upper house. I really would like to have at least one position on the council that is specifically a 'lawyer' from the Schools of Ethics.
Ok - I've revised the layout a little bit, I'm stuck on seven seats right now though, trying to figure out what to put in #8.
I think that's what the factol of the Harmonium does, though, at least in the Outer Planes.
I guess the other Councilor could be responsible for the other material planar worlds.
Commander of the Spelljamming fleet?
That's cause we did.
There's a note earlier in this thread linking to work that Richard Gant did that seemed to be a more interesting turn of events. Here
The Harmonium is Ortho - it's like Ortho's long reaching arm and strength of belief - Ortho on the move - but it's still an *arm* of the world. The world follows the Harmonium's ways and beliefs, and the Harmonium has a number of legal chokehold points but it's power is much more a matter of belief, and it is the belief of Ortho that guide the Harmonium as much as the other way around. Sort of a symbiotic element.
The Harmonium is Ortho - it's like Ortho's long reaching arm - but it's still an *arm* of the world. The world follows the Harmonium's ways and beliefs, and the Harmonium has a number of legal chokehold points but it's power is much more a matter of belief, and it is the belief of Ortho that guide the Harmonium as much as the other way around.
Fair enough I s'pose...I guess I was, to use an overused analog, thinking that Ortho was akin to the Soviet Union, the Harmonium akin to the Communist Party and the Composer (Factol) akin to the General Secretary of the Communist Party; At least in relation to their roles in the ideal of that fallen empire...That is the Harmonium as the Party in a one party system that controls the government of the nation...Reality Baloon popped...Of course, still willing to work within the system...
Kwint
I don't think the Harmonium factol could adequately run Ortho from Sigil, which is where Sarin lived. The Hardheads as a planar faction were based in the City of Doors (after the Faction War, they're based in Melodia) and the head of the planar faction is the factol. But the Harmonium as a whole is based on Ortho.
Ortho sees the entire planar faction as just a colony of their world. They need local rulers, though the Composer is still a powerful force among them.
I don't think the Factol's Manifesto indicates that Sarin rules Ortho. It says "Deserving of promotion, Sarin chose to go to Sigil, rather than take the easier route through the ranks of the prime Harmonium worlds. He knew Sigil would be a rough posting compared to one on Ortho and that he'd arrive a near Clueless. And he still wanted the Cage." He didn't want the planar position because it was the only route to absolute power, but because it was a challenge. There were other, cushier routes to similar power.
The Harmonium philosophy rules Ortho, there's no doubt about that. But I don't think it contradicts anything in Planescape to say that the Harmonium factol is only one of several rulers on that world.
I suppose we could call all the members of the Octave "Composers." They could be the Composer of Prime Harmony, the Composer of Magical Harmony, the Composer of Ethical Harmony, Composer of Planar Harmony, Composer of Theological Harmony (first clerical position), Composer of Metaphysical Harmony (second clerical position), Composer of Civic Harmony, and the Composer of Agrarian Harmony.
I think I'm good with that.
So would that make one Harmonium member on the Octave Council and twenty-seven on the Council of Ortho or can the other Composers on the Octave Council or Councilors of Ortho also be members of the Harmonium?...Are those in the Churches or those in the State apparatus not allowed to be members of the Harmonium?...
Kwint
Anyone can join the Harmonium - (it *is* a philosophical movement after all) - but if you're on the council you are acting as a *representative* for your branch. If you fail to do so - you stand to lose your seat next election (or be challenged in your province as biased so on and so forth). Since the Harmonium is following the same laws as anyone else - once you represent a province, you are obligated to that duty above say the duties of a commanding office in the Harmonium. (In effect your province becomes your commanding officer in the Harmonium's books.)
And before you mention the inherent flaw here of giving the Harmonium extra power that they may not otherwise have... I know. Plot hook. There's a flow of power in this system that's likely to start imploding sometime soon...
You plural. Or I could say y'all - but that'd betray my accent a bit much.
Concerning Spelljamming-
How long has the Harmonium/Ortho had this 'technology'?...I'm familiar with Spelljamming in a general sense, but never had any of the products so am unfamiliar with some aspects of how it is used...I know that you can travel from sphere to sphere through the phlogiston, but how effective is travel on a prime world with spelljamming ships?...Do the Harmonium use this technology to travel between provinces on Ortho?...
Concerning Ortho's Technology-
Have we decided on the 'tech level' of Ortho?...I know that Rip has suggested early industrial age with steampunk and dirigables; is this the common opinion of our group?...Or is it the standard Middle/High Middle Age/Early Renaissance of basic D&D...I don't really care one way or the other, but would like to be in the know on the subject...
Kwint
About a century, I think. Much less than their time in the planes (two centuries as colonizers, though they may have had some contact with them before that). At some point, more than a century ago, they were approached by a representative of the mercanes, who sold their government some spelljamming helms. Things were slow going for them at first, as the other planets in their system are unpopulated, but eventually they found a way to begin becoming a power among the spheres.
I had more ideas, including the name of the mercane trading cartel and the first experimental Harmonium spelljammer, but I've forgotten them.
It's very effective, and they would. The only limitation is the number of spelljamming helms they have. Those can only be purchased from the mercanes.
It's very effective, and they would. The only limitation is the number of spelljamming helms they have. Those can only be purchased from the mercanes.
Is this standard for Spelljammer?...Only Mercane sell spelljammer helmets?...Couldn't you capture one from other spelljammin' folk?...What's the thought on the number of Spelljammin' ships in the Ortho sphere?...Used primarily on Ortho?...
Kwint
A few thoughts:
- The first meeting of the Harmonium Space Navy with the Elven Imperial Fleet is probably a disaster waiting to happen. In spite of the fact that they're probably very similar under the skin. This on its lonesome would serve to keep the Harmonium a lesser power that stays on the fringes of known wildspace.
- The Harmonium probably serves as a good customer for the mercane, but aren't necessarily trusted by them. The mercane do business with everyone, after all, and don't really cotton to a top-dog Harmonium Space Navy shutting down the neogi, lizardmen and such. Of course, if news of the Astromundi Deal* ever got out the Harmonium would probably declare a whole 'nother crusade...
- As part of the above point, it's on the outside end of possible that the Harmonium gets mostly crud equipment from the mercane. Furnaces and a few minor helms, second-rate hulls without any upgrades, no magical equipment... if the Harmonium can be limited to a sizeable number of small, lousy ships, they won't be a threat to the established (lack of) order in wildspace. Or that's the Plan, anyway.
- Nobody in wildspace is likely to appreciate the Harmonium that much. Like the elves, they're just too polarizing and self-righteous - and mostly groundlings, to boot. Expect them to get a lot of bad press wherever they've chosen to make waves - which expresses itself in bad starcharts, lousy repair and supplying jobs, frequent bar brawls that their sailors always get blamed for, et cetera.
In short, there are probably a lot of reasons why the Harmonium hasn't really done much with spelljamming, even given fifty or a hundred years' progress. They stick to their own territories, expand into the unknown reaches of space, and try to avoid starting new squabbles with neighbors they'd just as soon like to be at peace with.
* No, I'm not giving away any details on this. In fact, I've probably already said too much. Those who've read the DM's notes will understand exactly what is meant here. Fnord.
1. Yes, it's standard.
2. They're not helmets; they're helms in the nautical sense: "the steering wheel of a ship." In this case they're chairs that spellcasters sit in to power the ships.
3. Yes, you can capture them from others, or salvage them from wrecks. Mercanes make the new ones. They're effectively minor artifacts in the sense that ordinary spellcasters can't make them.
4 and 5. I'm not sure.
1. Yes, it's standard.
2. They're not helmets; they're helms in the nautical sense: "the steering wheel of a ship." In this case they're chairs that spellcasters sit in to power the ships.
3. Yes, you can capture them from others, or salvage them from wrecks. Mercanes make the new ones. They're effectively minor artifacts in the sense that ordinary spellcasters can't make them.
4 and 5. I'm not sure.
Thanks for the clarification...
kwint
So I was reading the Factions Chapter of PW's Ps3e product and came across this passage:
Note the last line- "This government they called the Harmonium"...This seems to contradict what has been written for this project concerning the government of Ortho, specifically the provincial representatives in the Council of Ortho...Perhaps instead of having a rep from the Harmonium, we should have a rep from Military/Defense Forces or the Thought Police/Knights of Harmony instead, as the Harmonium is the whole government and not just a part of it, at least according to the Ps3e write-up...Or are we diverging from Ps3e?...I don't mean to be argumentative about it, just wondering if there was a consistancy problem...
Kwint
The government in general is the Harmonium. One of the councilors of the Octave is the Factol of the Harmonium; "Factol" of course is a planar title and not an Orthoan one. His official title is Governor-General of the Planar Colonies.
Planars see things differently; they see that the planar colonies are (before the war) administered from Sigil, and that the Harmonium has as great or greater an influence over the planes as any planar faction. From their point of view, the Hardheads are a faction and Sarin is their factol. He controls the important part of the faction, the part that struggles daily in the kriegstanz trying to shape the planes to his philosophy. What do they care about the politics of one little Prime world?
Probably a lot of planar Hardheads feel the same way.
Rephrased:
There is a consistancy problem at the moment. To a certain extent you (kwint) are one of the first people we've had sit down and go through the works looking at the details for consistancy. I figure once I get the Ortho draft fully written up with everyones info, you'll want to check it for errors. So I'll hold off a week or so from announcing it to the world at large to let you find anything I've missed along the way.
Also - I'm going to at least assume for the moment that the Ortho we are developing is going to be part of ps3e unless moogle001 for some reason decides otherwise. I don't see any reason why he wouldn't approve of it being part of the PW canon.
So, then, what is the Harmonium on Ortho actually?...Are they the Federal Military?...The Thought Police?...A Political Party, one that folk need not join, but the only one that is guaranteed a place in the federal government?...An Overt (as opposed to Secret) Society that controls the world, advancing its members up the social ladder faster than those who don't belong...All of the above?...Some, but not all of the Above?...
Kwint
ps-Clueless, I'm kinda confused by your response above, the grammar and/or syntax confused me...
Post revised for comprehension. I'm never allowed near a computer after a 10 hour work shift ever again...
I would say they are something of a mix of Federal Military, and Political Party.
Regarding the idea that they would be "An Overt (as opposed to Secret) Society that controls the world, advancing its members up the social ladder faster than those who don't belong" - I don't think the Harmonium would nessecarily automatically advance their members. That's a little too corrupt to be happening on all levels of the faction. Enough of them are LN or LG that they'd want to keep corruption low. So it's not likely to happen unless the local leadership fell more along the LE alignment.
As for how the Harmonium and the government interact and behave towards each other... In a way I think the best correlary may be China and its Communist Party.
The following quotes are from Wikipedia so take the information with a grain of salt. This isn't presented to start a political or historical debate on the accuracy of Wikipedia. I just believe the idea of a society like this is well conveyed by these quotes - so wither they are accurate or not, they serve their purpose here.
Russia and the Communist party:
"For most of the history of Soviet Russia and the Soviet Union, the Communist Party was virtually indistinguishable from the government, as it was the only political party tolerated by the government and its security forces... Membership in the party ultimately became a privilege with Communist Party members becoming an elite, or nomenklatura, in Soviet society. Members of the nomenklatura would enjoy special privileges such as shopping at well-stocked stores, have preference in obtaining housing and access to dachas and holiday resorts, being allowed to travel abroad, send their children to the best universities and obtain prestigious jobs for them. It became virtually impossible to join the Soviet ruling and managing elite without being a member of the Communist Party."
As opposed to China and the Communist party:
"The relationship between party and state is somewhat different than that of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, in which the party controlled the state. In the current PRC structure, power derives from the state position, but key state positions are invariably held by members of the party and party through its organization department makes crucial decisions on who occupies what position. However, in contrast to the Soviet situation where the party had extra-legal authority, since the early-1990's, it is has been established that the party is subject to rule of law and is therefore subject to the authority of the state and the Constitution of the People's Republic of China."
The original organization of the Harmonium was the Knights of Harmony. They're still knights even now - so this is a built in military structure and tendancy for the group. The Knights of Harmony have probably taken on something of the role of federal military within the political structure of Ortho. However, the Harmonium may be involved in enforcing the law, and creating the law - but they are also subject *to* the law and no exceptions are made.
When the Harmonium was founded - they had no idea *what* a faction even was. For centuries they hadn't even heard of the planes. Of all the factions, they're the one that didn't consider itself a faction until recently. If anything I would think the leadership of Ortho probably looked at the Sigilian political structure and decided to simply adopt the outer appearance of a faction to make it easier to recruit. So, once again - we have to rethink how we view the structure. It's easy for us to see it the way a planar would, as it was written in the Planescape line. What we're doing is turning it around and looking at it from the point of view of the prime.
Combine this with the idea that the factol is the head of the Planar interests - *not* the head of the world and you should (hopefully) get a better feel for the idea that Ortho dominates the Harmonium policies. Perhaps to the other factions it made sense for the top-dog of the faction to be living in Sigil, but to the primes they probably kept the central power and organization at home... where it was needed.
I guess if we're being consistent with PS3e, I should note that the Factions chapter says the Harmonium has been in the planes for three centuries rather than two.
Although the Factol's Manifesto says it's been around two. So I think that's a consistency problem at PS3e's end.
There are a few other discrepencies between what we've done here and Planewalker's Chapter 3.
- They place the War of Iron at approximately Harmonium 250 ("For a hundred and fifty years, there was complete peace on Ortho. But then the trouble started.") Or Harmonium 150, if you dramatically shorten the time it took to conquer Ortho.
- I need to change the "recent history" thing I posted to account for the PS3e material. I had based what I wrote closely on the Factol's Manifesto, but the PS3e Doomguard material (by Julian?) better reconciles the disrepencies within the FM, giving the Doomguard a job to do for the centuries between the Great Upheaval and the Harmonium's arrival (which is when they started running the Armory). PS3e does contradict the FM slightly, which said the Guvners were in charge of law enforcement in the Cage until the Hardheads came along. Maybe the Doomguard under Factol Moluus gave up that job willingly to the Guvners so that they could better concentrate on breaking stuff, and the Guvners passed the job on to the Hardheads as soon as they showed up. I'm not sure.
We also need a few examples of lawful good nations who wouldn't swear allegiance to the Knights of Harmony, so the Knights had to fight them. They could be small nations almost anywhere.
The Factol's Manifesto makes a direct parallel between Ortho and Athas. Does anyone want to go further with that? Maybe Ortho's starting to get less fertile and its deserts are expanding.
PS3e chapter 3 mentions a recent attack by the Saltie faction of the Doomguard on the Harmonium. Where did this take place? Arcadia? Ortho itself?
Continent names: Athra, Thaera, Mot?
Namers
Notary 1 = Private
Notary 2 = PFC
Notary 3 = Corporal
Notary 4 = Lance Corporal
Notary 5 = Sergeant
Factotums
Measure 1 = 1st Lieutenant or Master Sergeant (for those who didn't attend OCS at Melodia and advanced later in life)
Measure 2 = 2nd Lieutenant
Measure 3 = Captain
Measure 4 = Major
Measure 5 = Lt Colonel
Factors
Mover 1 = Colonel
Mover 2 = Brigadier (*) General
Mover 3 = Major (**) General
Mover 4 = Lieutenant (***) General
Mover 5 = [Full] (****) General
Factol
Composer = (*****) General of the Army
We added Notary 0 to represent those who served the minimum active military service, but were still full members of the faction...They were the members who were shopkeepers, touts, laborers, etc and not involved actively in keeping the peace in Sigil, not that they didn't intervene in stopping law-breakers either by direct intervention or by calling for policing Hardheads...Also, those who had acheived higher ranks within the faction, but had retired from active service to settle down had their rank reduced by one and the term retired attached to their rank until recalled to active service, i.e. a Measure 3 who retired to, say, open up a bub-joint would be a Measure 2, ret. ...
Kwint
I think I can use this for a few of the colony worlds. Esp, Fallia the oceanic world divided between Sahuagin and Aboleth with a contingent of sea-elf serfs. While the elves are free on paper the Harmonium would be willing to overlook the treatment and practical enslavement of the elves due to past blood and anger for elves as well as the need for the food produced by the worlds vast fish and kelp farms.
That sounds pretty good. So a former Composer who steps down would be officially a Mover 5 (Retired)?
Perhaps the seas are starting to get saltier? (Considering how much the sea is the basis for many life cycles this is a baaad thing.) There are more instances of red algae blooms, often right off the coasts of Iironda. And the Thaeran divers speak of being unwelcome in the grip of the ocean.
This is definately something to pick up on in the Plots thread. I already saved some of your previous thoughts regarding the sun in that one.
That sounds pretty good. So a former Composer who steps down would be officially a Mover 5 (Retired)?
Sure...Hadn't really thought about a Composer stepping down, but I guess so...He'd still have the prestige as appropriate to his station and accomplishments, but would pass on the powers he had as Composer to his successors (I don't recall what those were as my Factol's Manifesto is in storage)...Of course, if he were called back into active duty, he'd most likely still only be a Mover 5, unless he was called back to service to take up the mantle of one of the Composers once again...
Kwint
If anything this sort of questioning is just giving us a better groundwork to build further from. It's much easier to fix inconsistancies now than it is to fix them later after we've written things that depend on them. You've got a sharper eye for this stuff than I do and I'm grateful for the assistiance. It's also forcing us to really develop the depth that I know we want to see in the project.
Just a quick question: Is the Heroic Founder and Knight of Harmony Romhel or Rommel?...I've noticed these two spellings for a while now...
Kwint
Rip?
I know one of those spellings was used in a bit of fiction that was written in an archaic style (where spelling is optional). Did it get used elsewhere?
Romhel, I think. Sometimes I write "Rommel" accidently.
Fixed.
In those times long past, before the Lords of Order or Chaos even existed, and before the Pantheons split, the Oldest of the gods were born. Out of Flesh and Spirit were conceived Didairdin – god of war and aggression, and Kibajij – god of trickery. Out of Spirit and Truth was born Rialondru – god of heirachy. Out of Flesh and Truth was born Olinem – god of love and blind trust. These four are the oldest of the gods of Ortho.
After they were born, Truth abandoned the now populated world, leaving the newborn gods to their devices. Rialondru took upon himself an apprentice, Iathiphos the Scribe to record the history of their family and learn at his feet. Kibajij took to his pranks and trickeries, indulging in shape shifting and pretending to be who he was not. He soon discovered the joys and dangers of tricking others in such a way when he deceived Olinem into believing he (Kibajij) was a woman, and soon after Jislana and Lanimin were born. Their parents vowed to never repeat the experience or speak of it again.
Didairdin found Alae on the battlefield – a mortal woman desperately defending her homestead against his troops. He took her to bed by force producing Tyerusus, and Namaneil as offspring. Guilt and regret for his actions led him to sever a part of his godly essence to heal the woman he so wronged, and for centuries he repented – in doing so finding his own salvation. Jislana, until now dancing in silence, found her movements set to rhythm by the music of a mortal Baelae. She shared her godly powers with him, setting him at her side in her performances before the pantheon.
And it was then that the goddess Saeduenical was born of Flesh and Spirit. The last born, and the only born without the light of Truth to welcome her to the world and banish darkness from her eyes. It was she who found the heat of fire in the hidden depths of the earth, and brought it to her home in the pantheon, locking it behind gates of wood and iron to keep it for herself. Kibajij saw her claim fire from the earth and knew the world was cold through and through without it. He snuck into her home, stealing it to give it to the mortals of the world. When she discovered the theft she knew the thief was the Fox, for the tip of his tail was singed black. Instead of bringing it to the attention of the family though, she turned a trick upon the trickster and stole a place in his bed with a magical draught. From this union were born Chal – goddess of ruin, and Ghanalim – god of murder, and she assigned the two to guard her home.
With this, Order and Chaos began to churn in displeasure – this crime committed amongst their own children repulsed Flesh and Spirit and both fled, following on the heels of Truth. Order and Chaos divided, repulsed by each other and demanded the same of their grandchildren. The arguments were fierce and swiftly turned to bloodshed. The Pantheon divided – The Lords of Chaos and the Lords of Order broke apart, building high walls between each other to prevent their enemies from peering in upon them.
After the family divided, the god of war turned to raising his children, and the goddess of martyrs turned to finding peace with others as well as herself. With the gentle mediation of Ina, a newcomer to the Lords of Order, the two were reconciled as Didairdin had long ago fallen in love with the quiet strength of Alae and a third child was born. Nothing is known of this child save that it was surrendered to Ina after birth, to be protected and raised.
- The Incarnate Records, held by the Temple of Iathiphos
I give Kibajij a lot to do in this writeup, I'm going to think of some other things for the others as well too though.
The Dark of the matter. Yes, Truth left - and once she/he/it realized how much *bad* was going down because it left.... Truth came back. Under the name Ina - an interloper goddess accepted by both pantheons (becuase neither is exactly counting heads on the other side).
Ina is trying to keep the sides from erradicating each other completely - acknowledging that without both sides, neither would exist. She is quietly protecting the secrets and hidden sins of the world and the pantheon. And trying - rather desperately at this point - to get the family at least talking civily to each other again.
Ina is trying to keep the sides from erradicating each other completely - acknowledging that without both sides, neither would exist. She is quietly protecting the secrets and hidden sins of the world and the pantheon. And trying - rather desperately at this point - to get the family at least talking civily to each other again.
Does this mean that the Lords of Chaos and the Lords of Law are connected? Then what would happen if the Harmonium/Lords of Law actually manage to slay a Lord of Chaos?
"We defeated the evil lord of chaos? Why does our god look sick?"
Yes.
And yes - it might be a Bad Thing (which makes Ina's job that much more important, to keep them from eradicating each other).
Family fueds are the worst after all, and some of them may even still care about each other (the Dancer and the Musician for example) making it hard to fight quite as viciously as they might be able to. But have no doubt, this family tiff is an ugly one - and whatever love either side has for the other is buried very deeply under a lot of anger, resentment, and outright hate.
The Harmonium might not like, or even *accept* this idea, but no one ever had to say they were *right*. The pantheon itself may not realize how bad it would be if they outright killed each other (Ina does of course).
Sorry, I forgot to doublecheck the Council seats that Clueless had created first. Rather than editing what I just wrote, though, I'll just present an alternate version.
Two Pontificators are allowed to remain (instead of three), but one is clearly subordinate to the other, nominated by and dismissable by the High Pontificator at any time. Similarly, a Councilor of Education, Public Health, and Safety was created, clearly subordinate to the Composer (and usually his number two in the military). A wizard from Heka and a lawyer from Han who had drafted the peace treaty were elevated to the status of new councilors, while the Four Quarters were also reduced to two, one subordinate to the other. In this way the Council would foster unity, rather than division, as dissenting opinions in any one field could be solved by firing the dissenter. Yet at the same time the different councilors balanced one another, and the power of the Composer was no longer as unchecked as before.
The rebellious provinces were also placated at this time by the foundation of the Council of Ortho, fifty one representatives who now represent the provincial voices in the choir that is the government in Harmony's Glory.
So forget what I said earlier about the provinces being left unsatisfied.
Or people should feel free to draft any treaty that they like better. It can be a choose-your-own-ending thing.