Ortho: Map Poll

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I'd like to hear from some of you folks regarding a new project I've got in mind. That is to detail the ins and outs of Ortho - the Prime World that is the origin of the Harmonium. (Yes, they came from the Prime - stick that in your craw Cirily. Eye-wink )

Now, there's scant little that I've been able to find on Darks regarding this place - other than that the world is on the surface peacefull subjugated by the Harmonium. There are no elves, halflings or fey (those oh so chaotic individualistic sorts) - or at least there aren't any anymore.

Does anyone have a list of the resources already available on this Prime in the main books?

And does anyone have an opinion regarding the above generated maps?

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Ortho: Map Poll

I really like the second one down because you could have a Central continent with East and West continents too. Could add more flavor to the world by having three different Continents with different cultures on them. Who knows?

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Ortho: Map Poll

My version of Ortho has a heavy East/West dichotomy, and also a mention of a Southern continent, so I think either the second one down or the second one from the bottom works best. The second one down looks the easiest for a single civilization to conquer.

Sources:
Factol's Manifesto (primary source)
Planewalker's Handbook, page 33. Not really anything here that isn't in the Factol's Manifesto.
Tales From the Infinite Staircase, page 75. Description of the Riven, exiles from Ortho now living in the city of Blurophil in the Elemental Plane of Air.

Something I wrote on Ortho on these boards

Something I wrote on Ortho on the "...Unless Infinity" site

Rich Gant's description of Ortho's solar system

More on Ortho by Rich Gant

Still more

Zach Shuford on the Harmonium after the war

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Ortho: Map Poll

What sort of a 'feel' would you expect an Ortho setting to have? What dominant themes?

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I'd avoid the maps with the massive island chains. Those would be much harder to conquer than a similar landmass. There's a reason why, up until the tsunami wrecked their boats, Indonesia was one of the piracy capitals of the world.

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On the otherhand - the Harmonium probably didn't do all their controlling of the world purely by force of arms - they are a faction after all, belief would have something to do with it. But some island chains might be good to have: gives us a reservoir where the world can have some conflict to it.

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'nick012000' wrote:
I'd avoid the maps with the massive island chains. Those would be much harder to conquer than a similar landmass.
While that is true, I think it is important to consider that there was probably a fair amount of cultural diversity on Ortho before the Hardheads completed the establishment of their "New World Order". We know that the Hardheads efforts to established themselves as the power on Ortho didn't happen over night. They often had to bring "peace" to one region before moving on to the next. Having a significant number of landmasses, or rather island chains, plays up the time and effort the Harmonium had to employ in order to solidify their control over Ortho. It suggests that there were many different government types/political entities already in existence in these places when the Harmonium arrived at each locale.

It also ties in with what Clueless just said about conflict.

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'Fell' wrote:
'nick012000' wrote:
I'd avoid the maps with the massive island chains. Those would be much harder to conquer than a similar landmass.
While that is true, I think it is important to consider that there was probably a fair amount of cultural diversity on Ortho before the Hardheads completed the establishment of their "New World Order". We know that the Hardheads efforts to established themselves as the power on Ortho didn't happen over night. They often had to bring "peace" to one region before moving on to the next. Having a significant number of landmasses, or rather island chains, plays up the time and effort the Harmonium had to employ in order to solidify their control over Ortho. It suggests that there were many different government types/political entities already in existence in these places when the Harmonium arrived at each locale.

It also ties in with what Clueless just said about conflict.

It also brings up the possability that perhaps Ortho isn't as Harmonius as the hardheads claim.

Might make a good game. "Pour la resistance!"

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Ortho: Map Poll

'Clueless' wrote:
What sort of a 'feel' would you expect an Ortho setting to have? What dominant themes?

Ortho was originally a prototypical D&D fantasy world, much like Oerth or Toril. In fact, it could have been either of those worlds if things had gone slightly differently in their history. Their pantheon was originally divided between gods of Law and gods of Chaos. I think there was a substantial population of chaotic evil elves (not drow) that helped inflame public sentiment against elven races, and a race of small, winged fey creatures like the "faen" of Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved.

That was 500 years ago. The chaotic gods are all outlawed and driven underground. The elves and fey are extinct or exiled to other worlds; some of them retreated to the Plane of Faerie and shut the door behind them. While there's still many different cultures on the world corresponding roughly to (though not directly mimicking) Asian, European, and other cultures on Earth, they all now worship the same group of Harmonium-approved gods and believe (more or less) in the same Harmonium rules and ideals.

Technology has advanced over the past half-millennium from a Dark Ages level to a roughly steampunk level, and spelljamming technology is well established. Many planar ideas have become part of Ortho's culture - various lawful planar gods like St. Cuthbert are popular on the world now, Guvners and Mercykillers may have a small presence on the world, and most people think of themselves as part of a "faction" - the Harmonium - even if not everyone truly understands what that means. They do know that by maintaining unity in their beliefs they help bring peace to the multiverse, and for the majority that's enough.

The major races are humans, orcs, dwarves, and beholders. The beholders of Ortho - every one of them covered in spiky red chitin - are as xenophobic as they are anywhere, but they focus this xenophobia into a fanaticism for the Harmonium ideals. They don't generally mix with other races, but they believe in the same ideals and vigilantly work to ensure their own population does not become "corrupt" or "wrong-headed." Every race is considered an equal under Harmonium law, and most of them mix freely.

Ortho is something like a combination of whatever dystopian novels you can think of - Orwell's 1984, Zamyatin's We, Thomas More's Utopia - with things like Imperial Victorian England and maybe a Warhammer/Iron Kingdoms approach toward fantasy steampunk, with the additional knowledge that this world is intimately connected to Arcadia and Sigil, even if travel is restricted. Ortho isn't good-leaning like Arcadia is, but it isn't a Baator-like pit either. At least, not quite. I see it as maybe a dark gray Mechanus; darker than Nemausus, but not in Acheron. It isn't perfectly orderly either - it's close, but there are pockets of resistance that, on the flawed Material Plane, the Harmonium just hasn't been able to stamp out.

There are also airships and spelljammers, and alchemy based on the four elements replaces the chemistry that our own world had at a similar tech level. Because this is D&D, gunpowder weapons are at a fairly low level of advancement, limited to muskets and the like. There are probably trains criss-crossing the country. Ortho isn't the only world the Harmonium have colonized, so there will be portals to other worlds on the Material Plane. Most Orthoans are literate, as most D&D characters are in general, which probably means printing presses.

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So, what exactly did harmony bring to Ortho? Is there world-wide peace, happiness, and prosperity? Is it a shining example of the rightness of Harmonium beliefs?

Or is it still a work in progress, too influenced by outside non-harmonious factors to adequately represent the ideal?

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'Nemui' wrote:
Or is it still a work in progress, too influenced by outside non-harmonious factors to adequately represent the ideal?

I think so. That was their motivation for exploring the planes - the world wasn't, despite all their efforts, perfect yet. Therefore, they reasoned, the Abyss must be at fault. So they tried to destroy the Abyss.

When that failed miserably, they realized they had to convert all the planes, starting with those planes like Arcadia that were actually willing to listen to them.

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I'd also say that there are some serious skeletons in their closet on this world too. Such as elves, fey, and halfings that *used* to be there. There may be areas that are simply 'no go' places by order of the Harmonium. No one would really want to admit that the mound in a remote location is composed mostly of buried bones. But theres always that thing called 'curiosity' that might make this a problem. I'm sure there's a number of those sort of sticking points.

Beyond that it may also be worth considering that it may not be feasible in a world to produce perfect harmony. If there are areaas that by their nature do not have an equal share of the world prosperity - harsh land to live in or extreme remoteness for example - then you get into a situation where the world itself arranges for conflict. Without some serious effort to counter whatever physical situation has been produced, it's hard not to see resentment grow.

Additionally, the Harmonium are mostly about the Law. If I recall there are some evil Harmonium members, though recent leadership certainly would frown on it. There's opportunity for abuse in the system from greed and selfishness.

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'Clueless' wrote:
I'd also say that there are some serious skeletons in their closet on this world too. Such as elves, fey, and halfings that *used* to be there. There may be areas that are simply 'no go' places by order of the Harmonium. No one would really want to admit that the mound in a remote location is composed mostly of buried bones.

See, I don't think the Harmonium would be too queasy about the bones. I'd expect them to openly admit that sacrifices have been made for the greater good, and that the unrepentant had to be eliminated. They might even hang the skulls in prominent places instead of burying them secretly ... provided, of course, that they had some results to justify the bones with. Surely there is some measure of Harmony on Orhto? I understand it's not a perfect example, but it is an example, isn't it?

Quote:
Beyond that it may also be worth considering that it may not be feasible in a world to produce perfect harmony.

For us Softheads to consider, yes. For the Harmonium, no. One of the key points in ther philosophy is that there are no absolutes, except the ultimate ideal they strive for. I don't think they would ever admit that it was impossible to harmonize the planes, let alone a single Prime world, especially their homeworld.

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I'm noticing that one of the maps is definately breaking out ahead of the othes - anyone who voted for it want to toss up a reason why they choose that one over others?

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Ortho: Map Poll

I'm a big fan of islands and archipelagos.

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'Nemui' wrote:
. Surely there is some measure of Harmony on Orhto? I understand it's not a perfect example, but it is an example, isn't it?

Oh, definitely, especially compared to the way it used to be. It used to be a collection of constantly warring feudal states and empires, like so many worlds. There is no more war on Ortho. It has found peace under its single world government. A single law-based religion (honoring an ever-expanding pantheon of approved gods) has found its way to every corner of the world.

That's a victory, especially if they continue to exaggerate the horrors of the previous era.

What Ortho does not have is an end to all violence, crime, and dissention. There are still instances where two or more people in Ortho will disagree about something. Disagreement leads to violence and thoughtcrime. Sometimes people will worship the wrong gods or complain about one another or the Harmonium government. This cannot be allowed, or even explained by anything other than the invisible influence of the planes.

Therefore, the Harmonium has accepted that while perfect harmony on Ortho is certainly possible, even inevitable, it won't happen until the planes themselves have been tamed by unanimity just as Ortho has.

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'ripvanwormer' wrote:
'Nemui' wrote:
. Surely there is some measure of Harmony on Orhto? I understand it's not a perfect example, but it is an example, isn't it?

Oh, definitely, especially compared to the way it used to be. It used to be a collection of constantly warring feudal states and empires, like so many worlds. There is no more war on Ortho. It has found peace under its single world government. A single law-based religion (honoring an ever-expanding pantheon of approved gods) has found its way to every corner of the world.

That's a victory, especially if they continue to exaggerate the horrors of the previous era.

Ah, but how unified are the states of Ortho really?
Before the Civil War the United States were joined under one federal system of government and so could be said to all be under one single government. What could be simmering under the surface?
What treaties and promises have yet to be fully tested?
What stories of wrongs and woes un-avenged are still told to children?
What grudges and hatreds are still carried?

Ortho was to my knowledge united part by part and much of it semi-peacefully, through diplomacy, treaties, as well as much being through all out warfare and long lasting seige and destruction.

Many an injustice is made worse and deepened by silence, and Ortho is a quiet place indeed.

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Assuming no one minds, I'm going to trim out from the voting the maps that haven't recieved any votes for them yet. (Don't worry - I'll keep the images around for awhile yet.)

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'Clueless' wrote:
Assuming no one minds, I'm going to trim out from the voting the maps that haven't recieved any votes for them yet. (Don't worry - I'll keep the images around for awhile yet.)

No reason they couldn't be used for other primes.

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Any of the supporters for the lesser voted maps care to step up with why they prefer theirs?

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It looks like there's a bit of a bug in the bar graph, since the one with 2 votes has a longer bar than the one with 5.

Edit: Now it's working again. Oh well.

I explain why I voted the way I did, but honestly my preference isn't that strong. The others look good as well.

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*nodnod* I was a bit curious about some of the folks that hadn't spoken up yet too. Eye-wink

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I voted for number ... 4, I think. I just like the land-water ratio and distribution. It leaves out the huge dry areas, while avoiding the Thousand Island syndrom.

Besides, it kinda reminds me of Eurasia+Africa on Earth, somewhat flattened and moved northwise, that is...

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I voted for the second one because I thought that it looked intruiging. It looks as though you could easily have at least three totally distinct cultures... and there is a small chain of islands to the middle of the eastern side that could prove good for pirating. I think that it would be difficult to take over, and make for a good storyline as to how they eventually take over each of those cultures.

The cultures would be very distinct from each other since they are parted by water. They could each have very old civilizations on them that clashed with one another before the Harmonium get there. Now that the Harmonium is there though, how long could they keep this old fued calm? Probably not long, as there would still be fighting here and there, where the Harmonium's presence isn't as strong.

Just a few thoughts.

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I edited my vote to my second choise. We do have a front runner and now two seconds. It might be time to cut the pack down to three?

I dunno

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*bump*
Looks like our votes are shifting around a bit...

If we do find a map we like and a particular feature of another map that we like (I have a fondness for that archipeligo out in the ocean there on #3) then we can certainly merge that feature into the selected map. I'd just need to know which parts to keep.

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I like the chain of islands on the third one down and the continents on the second one down. If we could put those two together I think it would look very cool.

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Did they leave before or after they completely conquered the whole place? If so shouldn' t the domain itself look sorta lawful in the first place.

I'm thinking that the very continents could be shaped by their ideals. That seems to be in the flavor of the game is it not?

No chaotics? Such a place would truely be tamed...how awful!! Goddess that sounds like hell to me!

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That's the rub of it. They haven't left. Eye-wink

The place is *still* a Harmonium stronghold. Though this is a prime material world, so it's not *quite* as mutable as a plane might be. In no small part b/c while the Harmonium is lawful - it's hard to convince the populace that their terrian has changed if it hasn't actually - you know - changed. I've also got the feeling that the Harmonium - being at it's core a mortal and Prime organization - isnt' likely to view such radical changes to the landscape as nessecary outside of the progress of technology or society.

Quote:
No chaotics? Such a place would truely be tamed...how awful!! Goddess that sounds like hell to me!
And so the innate problem of indivudualism with the Harmonium's ideals shows itself as the perfect example of why I think it'd make a good world to detail. Cool

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'rbowspryte' wrote:
Did they leave before or after they completely conquered the whole place? If so shouldn' t the domain itself look sorta lawful in the first place.

I'm thinking that the very continents could be shaped by their ideals. That seems to be in the flavor of the game is it not?

No. If the place had been so tamed and conquered by law then it would have slid from the prime to mechanus. This prime might have gained a lawful element but its people are still people.

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What program was used to make the maps?

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An *old* C program I found, map generator. Let me see if I can find it again.

http://www.lysator.liu.se/~johol/fwmg/fwmg.html

Luckliy they have a net based version of it, b/c I couldn't get the source code to compile on my system when I downloaded the C file.

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Now that is a COOL program! Cool

Thankies for sharing it Clueless! Laughing out loud

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No problem! And... based on the current votes it looks like we'll go with the one with the archipeligo... I'll probably see if I can't put a third continent in there somewhere since that was really popular from the second runner up and clean it up a little bit.

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'Clueless' wrote:
No problem! And... based on the current votes it looks like we'll go with the one with the archipeligo... I'll probably see if I can't put a third continent in there somewhere since that was really popular from the second runner up and clean it up a little bit.

Remember to pay close attention to the mountains and the little fiddly bits around the fjords.

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Ok - I think we can be pretty sure on the winner in this poll:

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I've done a little work on it in photoshop...

Thoughts? should we remove that land lump there?

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I'd say slide it down and to the left till is is about halfway out of the picture, as a jutting part of a southern pole continent.

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'Gerzel' wrote:
I'd say slide it down and to the left till is is about halfway out of the picture, as a jutting part of a southern pole continent.

I second that motion.

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'Gerzel' wrote:
I'd say slide it down and to the left till is is about halfway out of the picture, as a jutting part of a southern pole continent.

Indeed, that sounds like a neat idea.

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Ok. Done:

Ok, I think we have our final version of the map done. Now to populate it! I think Rip's gotten us on a good solid start, so I'm going to quote a few things that he's gotten worked up into another thread and let's see if we can get some details on the background and theme for the place done. Smiling

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'Clueless' wrote:
Ok. Done:

Ok, I think we have our final version of the map done. Now to populate it! I think Rip's gotten us on a good solid start, so I'm going to quote a few things that he's gotten worked up into another thread and let's see if we can get some details on the background and theme for the place done. Smiling

One thing is you might wanna add a little bit more on the southern edge. Since it is a sphere on a flat plane there is quite a bit of distortion so I'm not sure how that southern continent should look or how big is would be.

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Honestly I think we can leave it for the nonce. Once we get to the point where folks really *want* to explore and define things in the Antartic, then I'd be all about getting a polar orriented map set up.

Smiling

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New thread up at: [url=/forum]/forum]

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'Gerzel' wrote:
'Clueless' wrote:
Ok. Done:

Ok, I think we have our final version of the map done. Now to populate it! I think Rip's gotten us on a good solid start, so I'm going to quote a few things that he's gotten worked up into another thread and let's see if we can get some details on the background and theme for the place done. Smiling

I'm not sure if the way it's set up is even possible. I mean, take a look at how Antartica is presented on our maps. There's a reason it goes all the way around the bottom of the map.
One thing is you might wanna add a little bit more on the southern edge. Since it is a sphere on a flat plane there is quite a bit of distortion so I'm not sure how that southern continent should look or how big is would be.

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Yes ... *confused look*? The map is not nessecarily pole to pole in full distortion. We'll burn that bit of the map when we need it.

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I would assume the map only extends to the Arctic Circle, or even narrower (perhaps to 60 degrees latitude on either side). That means that the whole area shown on the map is habitable - even the southernmost peninsula is habitable, although the rest of the southmost continent might not be.

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That's the intention. I figure when we get down to the North and South poles we'll just create some new polar orriented maps for those. That tip down south I figure is pretty rock and darned icky to live in but still technically 'livable'... Perhaps a good place for exiles.

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...

Say hello to the Siberian gulags! Eye-wink

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*Yoinks the first map for Integril.

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Ortho: Map Poll

So, I've found that there are 12 colors representing levels of elevation for the Geography Map of Ortho (see below)...I was wonderin' what folks thought these levels/feet-above-sea-level should be...Are the arithmetic in their progression (i.e. does each one represent the same increase ih elevation; probabley not)...What's the highest peak's elevation for instance?...Just thought it would be an interesting topic and help in fleshing out how mountainous/hilly/plainar areas are?...Anywho...
Kwint

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