Oppositional Symmetry

19 posts / 0 new
Last post
Tequila Sunrise's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-11-17
Oppositional Symmetry

I love all the different landscapes of PS--one plane of acidic volcanoes, another of endless wasteland, another a slimy memory-stealing river--but the 17 outer planes and the 18 inner planes feel forced. I mean, what's so inherently Lawful and Evil about fire? And if fire really is so LE, why isn't Arborea cold [or water] themed? And do we really need eight in-between alignment planes? I can kinda see Earth being opposed to Air, but Fire and Water sound forced. I realize a lot of this stuff is based on RW mythology, but I can't make myself forget that water is a neutralizing agent, not an inherently cold substance.

Someday I'd like to redo PS as a multiverse of endless worlds of endless variety, without the baggage of oppositional symmetry. Because, ya know what? The bleakers and the crazies are right: there's no real rhym or reason to fun campaigns, so ya might as well throw away the pretense and just enjoy it. Anyone else feel the same way?

inkoia's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2009-03-24
I think the guvners behind

I think the guvners behind D&D 4th actually did it. You have an Astral sea with some planes, and elemental chaos with others, and I don't know what else. No great wheel. But if you remove philosofies and concepts, you loose the essence that sticks together Planescape.

snoeseven's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2008-07-08
I don't really see what

I don't really see what you're saying about the elemental planes. I thought, at best, the elemental planes were *weakly* tied to alignments. It's been a while since I've looked at Inner Plane material, but I thought they're on the 'other side' of the multiverse when it comes to alignments. If you're talking about why the Evil planes have fire on them...they don't all do that. Baator has some frozen layers. The Abyss has infinite layers and could have infinite variation. Aren't the Neutral Evil planes large wastelands?

As far as opposition on the planes:

Inner planes are the 'stuff' that creates the material plane. So they don't really have any alignments. They just are. A plane of fire just burning because that's what fire does, not because it's evil. Symmetry on the inner planes elements may be a bit contrived, but not from the aspect of alignment. Fire and Water seem to be opposed because they nullify each other when combined. Positive and Negative energy, sure. Earth and Air? Maybe, I dunno. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to put together an opposition between all of those things. 

The material planes are full of creatures that think and believe things. They are the basis for alignment because they believe things that are opposed to each other. Of course there will be symmetry there because whatever one believes there's usually someone else who believes the opposite.

Outer planes are the beliefs of the material plane. So they 'are' the alignments of the creatures that think of them. They can't get away from alignment and beliefs and polarity. They are the extremes.

 

But the real question is, where do all the inbetween worlds exist? The worlds that are not the extremes. The worlds that have combinations of all the pieces. I'd say those are the material planes...and maybe demiplanes in the Ethereal. I think there already can be endless worlds with endless variety in the current Planescape. There can be endless material plane worlds and endless demiplanes. You're the DM, make what you want...or rewrite it if it doesn't suit you.

 

Just my 2 cents on it...but maybe I think too much like a Guvner for you.

Tequila Sunrise's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-11-17
I'm looking forward to the

I'm looking forward to the 4e take on the multiverse, but I seriously doubt it'll be anywhere near the quality of the PS I want to play.

Tequila Sunrise's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-11-17
I was just talking about

I was just talking about Baator with the fire = LE comment. I like having a plane full of ruthless conniving devils that live in seven pits of fire, but by defining that plane as the center of the multiverse's Lawful Evilness, it implies that fire shares some fundamental trait with that alignment. And then having a plane of fire that is dominated by a race of genie who just happen to be LE...well, you get the idea. It just feels forced, is all.

 I know the Great Wheel cosmology is already infinite, and I know I can change it however I want as a DM. I know the rationale behind oppositional symmetry and other PS themes...I just think some of them could be updated.

BlackDaggr's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2007-11-15
Actually, the idea that

Actually, the idea that Fire=Hell is inherited from the western Christian bias. As was previously mentioned, Baator itself only has a small majority of fiery planes. Looking at the layers:

Avernus: Fireballs bursting over a rocky wasteland

Dis:  Iron City

Minauros: Swamp

Phlegethon: Fiery hell in the Christian tradition

Stygia: Icy Ocean

Malbolge (pre-Glasya): Endless rolling boulders (post-Glasya) oddly organic land of consumption (hard to describe)

Maladomini: ruins throughout, some lava flows

Caina: Frozen waste

Nessus:  Yawning chasms

 

While this list is simplified, only Avernus and Phlegethon are fiery, balanced by Cania and Stygia. Maladomini and (pre-Glasya) Malbolge have some firey rivers, but these aren't a significant element of the layer. OTOH, since baatezu are immune to fire, it would make some sense that the layers have some fiery elements.

 

As far as the larger query about opposing parts of PS: The elemental opposition concept is inherited from ancient Greek philosphy. Opposition on the outer planes - even Christianity has heaven and hell. Most mythologies have a Paradise and a land of evil/dead/whatever - PS simply blends them all together in a convenient package.

 

 

 

 

Jem
Jem's picture
Offline
Factor
Joined: 2006-05-10
The notion of Earth being

The notion of Earth being opposed to Air, and Fire to Water, come from the original traits ascribed to them by Plato:

Earth: warm and wet (Plato regarded ideal Earth as fertile soil, not rock)

Fire: warm and dry

Water: cold and wet

Air: cold and dry

Thus, Earth and Air opposed each other on both of the elements' defining traits, as did Water and Fire.  That Air and Water share the "cold" trait is why Gary Gygax put the Paraelemental Plane of Ice between them.  There's no alignment involved with the fundamental natures of the Inner Planes; the Lawful Evil efreet live on the Plane of Fire, but so does Zaaman Rul, the Prince of Good Fire Creatures.

If you would like to have Earth and Air meet, as well as Fire and Water, that's fine.  There are remote suggestions in some of the material that this did happen in ancient day, and there was some catastrophic rearrangement of the elements.  Perhaps Earth and Air meet at a Plane of Glass or Mirrors, and Fire and Water meet at a Plane of Steam or Acid.  In my current game we've used aeroglass, or frozen smoke (it's a real substance) as a hint of such a thing. 

Center of All's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2004-05-11
To address the Baator in

To address the Baator in particular, it's at least loosely based on Dante's Inferno.  Most of the layer names and features are the same or similar to what Dante writes.

As someone above mentioned, it sounds like the 4e cosmology would be right up your alley.  The 4e Manual of the Planes is out, so you can take a look at the new "official" cosmology at your leisure Smiling

This does bring up a good segue for a point I've been discussing with a friend of mine, though it may belong in another thread entirely.

Simply put, a several of the planes are largely boring or easily overlooked compared to others.  Some of them feel better-developed or at least much better-suited for adventuring. In other cases, it's hard to create a planar adventure that actually feels planar instead of simply being easily-transposed onto a Prime (something I have personally dealt with). Bytopia, for example, is a neat plane full of hard-working folks, but it's not terribly inspiring on its own, nor is it really all that different from a Prime -- except that you can look up and see the plane's other half.  Arcadia is similar, even with the Harmonium presence.  Rows of neatly-organized orchards is not a terribly exciting prospect. 

Many of the Outer Planes, especially the Upper Planes, suffer from this.  Most of them can be summed up in a single sentence which is good in some circles, but makes for rather bland stretches of infinity.  Many planes (again, especially the Upper Planes and Inner Planes) lack a clear and defining conflict that's noticeable at a glance.  This, I suspect makes them seem superfluous in the eyes of many Planescape critics. 

I'm going to pick on poor Bytopia again.  There's some conflict there, but it mostly portrays itself as a happy little place of a bunch of people working hard toward essentially the same goal -- hard work for hard work's sake.  While it's a workable concept, it's not terribly interesting for an adventure in and of itself.  Creating an adventure would require a seriously disruptive outside influence (fiendish invasion, et al.).  All things considered, I don't see the Great Ring as written suffering tremendously if several planes were cut off completely. 

Some planes have conflicts that are downplayed or glossed over.  Take the war between the facets and the Plane of Water.  To me, that has potential to be an excellent major conflict running throughout the Inner Planes -- and it's something I'm playing up in my game here.  But the facets are so obscure that even many loyal planewalkers barely know what they are. 

Again, this is more of an issue for the Upper Planes and Inner Planes than the Lower Planes.  Most of the Lower Planes are full to overflowing with all sorts of conflicts.  And it's apparent which planes are more popular and more usable because they're seen more.  Baator, the Abyss, Celestia -- these places are not simply popular because they're the homes of devils, demons, and angels.  They're popular because they're incredibly easy to use in comparison.  The current overarching nature of many Upper Planes feels innately geared against any sort of conflict, and what conflict exists can often be replicated on a Prime world.  As a result, it doesn't feel very special going to these planes.  The Inner Planes are static and unchanging, and what potential major conflicts exist are barely explored.  Take the facets vs. Water example.  If the marids decided they've had enough of salt creatures trying to destroy their plane, it'd create a great war that'd provide an easy and very usable reason to go to Water or Salt.

This doesn't apply to all the planes, of course.  The most notable exception that comes to mind for me is Elysium.  It's supposed to be a plane of ultimate contentment and relaxation, so a lack of conflict makes it work.  It's still not especially exciting for running adventures, but conceptually it serves its purpose perfectly.

I'm sure many folks disagree, or they see the intra-planar conflicts as more apparent and less subtle than I do.  But even having read the planar supplements several times (Planes of ____, Inner Planes, etc.), I feel many planes need something added to their overarching theme.  I think many planes appear unnecessary not because of oppositional symmetry but because there's no internal opposition.  Given a chance and contributions from others, I'd be willing to sit down and conference on how to rewrite "boring" planes to feel more "interesting." (I use quotations because your mileage may vary).  My friend and I already have some ideas.  But while many planes have neat individual sites, I really feel they lack something to bring the whole plane together as an appealing whole.

Like I said, if folks surprise me and actually agree with some of my points, I'd be willing to commit to a long-term group effort to redevelop the Multiverse enough to make it wholly appealing while still keeping true to "the way it always has been."

__________________

http://kaitou-kage.deviantart.com/ -- My deviantART gallery

http://www.planescapemetamorphosis.com/ -- Planescape: Metamorphosis, a Planescape webcomic in the works

Tequila Sunrise's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-11-17
I agree about the lack of

I agree about the lack of conflict being boring. Maybe it's good for setting tone, but the literature goes out of its way to describe certain planes as devoid of interest--mostly I'm thinking of Vacuum, but also +/- Energy too. ['Course, if you're a cleric or paladin with reliable neg protection, that plane is almost as fun as the lower planes.]

 I might take you up on your offer, though at the moment I'm just brainstorming. [Also, I'm living in Korea with limited computer access.]  I'd like to be able to fit the 4e cosmology, as well as all CSs, into PS. Original PS implied that Oerth, Krynn, Toril, Athas, etc., were all part of the same material plane, but it never explained how their different [and sometimes conflicting] cosmologies fit together. Anyway, my current theory is that each campaign's cosmology is actually just a single plane. For example the Shadowfell, the Astral Sea, the Elemental Chaos, etc., are just layers that make up one plane. Traveling between layers is relatively easy, but traveling between planes is difficult--unless of course you're a cager with the right portal key. [Don't have my books with me, and I can't remember which ritual allows planar travel or at which level, so that may be an issue.]

Center of All's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2004-05-11
The issue with D&D Primes

The issue with D&D Primes sharing the cosmology is actually addressed in PS.  The campaign said the inhabitants of those Primes may or may not actually understand how the Multiverse really worked.  Judging from the tone set in the PS books, Toril and Oerth were closest to the truth, while Krynn was among the most Clueless.  For example, Planewalker's Handbook says that Krynnish Primes refer to all the Outer Planes as "the Abyss."  Athas, IIRC, is situated closer to the Inner Planes than the Outer and is said to have "odd" names for some of the Inner Planes.  Essentially, though, the gist is that everything expressed in Planescape "overrides" all the Prime world cosmologies.  Then, if a Prime world defines their cosmology differently from Planescape, that Prime world is wrong and "Clueless" to the real dark of things -- including Earth.  All their gods dwelled on Planescape's planes, not

The 4e cosmology is not terribly difficult to reconcile with the Great Wheel.  The Astral Sea is analogous enough to the Astral Plane to fit fine.  All the Outer Planes were located "within" the Astral Plane anyway, and the "astral dominions" of 4e serve a close enough purpose to the Outer Planes that the change there is pretty academic.  The Elemental Chaos is basically "what if the Inner Planes didn't have boundaries?"

My intent would be to work with Planescape's existing structure and add the details and conflicts to the planes to make them more immediately interesting.  Not so much to reconcile Planescape with other cosmologies but to enhance and address what I perceive are some of the biggest issues in the Multiverse.

__________________

http://kaitou-kage.deviantart.com/ -- My deviantART gallery

http://www.planescapemetamorphosis.com/ -- Planescape: Metamorphosis, a Planescape webcomic in the works

inkoia's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2009-03-24
I have the problem that my

I have the problem that my players, being CB and CN, don't like very much to go to the upper planes. And they hate LB paladins, and they look suspicious to celestials. They said "we have been once, and no more" after leaving Arcadia.

I'm new to planescape and I do a lot of mistakes running my games, but I was thinking on adding some "modern" problems to the upper planes, and combine them with some celestial iron fist, or passivity. I don't know, with Arcadia, emigration of people from the lower planes who wants to raise their children big and healthy there; problems with slow judicial system; people claiming more kindness from the people of the perfect lands. And in Bytopia, maybe it's possible to rethink in that "honest work". If I state as a DM that someone in Bytopia needs something more than work, maybe mafia style "business" in Bytopia is possible. What is good anyway? In my trip to Italy, I was told that in Sicilia mafia is not seen as the devil, and from interest or wathever their help has been accepted in some cases.

Don't want to begin a discussion of politics, and we all have different market philosophies. Can it be possible to translate our modern systems to the planes?. If Arcadia is thinking in a "Good for everyone", maybe the system there could be some kind of "forced communism" and it's possible that in the same Arcadia exists comunities that apply their own system (And in anarchist schools, the system used is like in Bytopia, "I won't tell you what time it is, I will teach you where is the clock and how to read it).

To summarize, my idea was to remove a little bit that celestial/paladin/I-don't-like-you pressure and add a little bit of Grays to Law and Good.   

Center of All's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2004-05-11
Arcadia is law tempered by

Arcadia is law tempered by goodness, so it's not necessarily the Harmonium philosophy of "good for everyone."  And actually, I personally think Arcadia's theme should be more benevolent than "forced" anything despite the Harmonium presence because of its position as an Upper Plane.  If anything, "forced" government is more the province of Acheron or Baator.

When my friend and I talked about this, we envisioned Arcadia as sort of "anti-Acheron," a land of magnificent kingdoms, each running under their own benevolent codes of law.  The kingdoms fought and wrangled politically, but the fighting was always noble and dignified and followed the rules of war.  Political wrangling happened, but it was neither vicious nor brutal and always stayed close to the law.  Chivalry was held in extremely high esteem and fighting for one's nation, one's king, one's people or even the plane itself was considered the greatest deed achievable on the battlefield.  It became a place where philosophers from all nations debated what laws were best for their societies and for other societies, too.  It was society first, certainly, but it was different views of what "society first" meant, and all with goodness at heart.  Treaties are made, remade, broken, and established once more as the kingdoms and nations constantly shift.  People that flaunt the law are expected to face punishment -- not out of spite but because these realms are all founded on the basis of law and they believe that benevolent order -- in whatever flavor -- is the most "good" thing that a person can have.

Of course, "the most good for society" is hotly debated today in the real world, so you can see where a good source of conflict comes from.  Some leaders might be more strict than others and while none are cruel (save that for Acheron and Baator), very few nations agree 100% on what it means to govern in a way that is in the people's best interests.  One nation might be fascist, another might be communist.  One kingdom could be socialist while another is capitalist.  One nation could have a hereditary petitioner monarchy that goes back generations while another nation is ruled by an elected Senate.  It allows room for all flavors and national styles and each one should have representation.  It allows both hot and cold wars.  It also opens up a bit more for planar adventures within Arcadia as PCs could get caught up in a war between two Arcadian realms.

Despite the differences, though, it's important to remember that the Arcadians are good people.  Rulers are generally LG, and they are LN at worst.  The plane's nature makes it impossible or extremely difficult for an evil creature to rise to prominent power similar to how Elysium naturally inhibits evil creatures trying to travel through it.  Perhaps Arcadian petitioners have a way of detecting falsehoods and deception that evil creatures perpetrate.  Regardless, the leaders are good folk and when evil strikes, the kingdoms are more than capable of uniting and standing as a solid front against the fiendish incursions.  This opens up ideas, too, for a war between Arcadia and Acheron.  Nothing so prolific as the Blood War, but you have two heavily militaristic planes standing a (figurative) hop, skip, and jump from each other.  On the occasions that an army on either plane can break off from its internal struggles long enough to look outward, I think they'd see each other as the next target.  Arcadians would see Acheronians as cruel tyrants who use the law to oppress their people instead of protect them (and they'd be mostly right), while Acheronians see Arcadians as weak, simpering pansies too hindered by their own laws to become the fighting force they could be.

In any case, while that idea introduces conflict, to a plane I feel is otherwise one of the duller ones, I think it may fall a bit short of being "planar."  Warring kingdoms is nothing new and is quite a common feature on Primes.  The fact that the Arcadian kingdoms are universally good and have their own interests as well as their opponents' interests in mind (no burning/pillaging/sacking occurs on Arcadia, for example) may not be enough to define it as a "planar" world.  Establishing conflict with Acheron helps (reinforces benevolent law and warfare vs. tyrannical law and warfare), but would those two things really set this idea of Arcadia apart from a "vanilla medieval Prime?"

Anyway, that's my very long two coppers on how I'd redo Arcadia Smiling

__________________

http://kaitou-kage.deviantart.com/ -- My deviantART gallery

http://www.planescapemetamorphosis.com/ -- Planescape: Metamorphosis, a Planescape webcomic in the works

Tequila Sunrise's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-11-17
I like your vision of

I like your vision of Arcadia and Acheron, though to make my  own overall vision clear, I want to specifically avoid aligning any of the planes. There will be no Great Wheel, just a collection of layers and planes. None of them will be embodiments of any alignment or belief system, even if a plane's inhabitants are universally LG or whatever.

I had forgotten about the "those berks on the prime just don't know the dark of the planes" explanation, but I don't think it quite does justice to the different CSs. Sure I can hand-wave all those FR, GH and DL supplements and novels that touch upon their cosmologies but that attitude is likely to turn off a lot of FR, GH and DL fans. Maybe it doesn't make much difference, but I think there's a better way:

Some planes are accessible to certain other planes, but others are not. For example the Abyss is accessible from Oerth, Krynn and Toril [I'm assuming their cosmologies haven't changed from earlier editions], but the Fugue Plain and Kelemvor's city is only accessible from Toril. Where your soul goes after you die depends on which plane you come from, or died on, and which gods have influence there. This way all the fans of other settings get to have a consistent experience, while PS still has the "those primes don't know half the dark of it" tone.

inkoia's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2009-03-24
I still think that

I still think that emigration/inmigration should be a conflict source in the "life is good" planes, hehe. 

I like how you've drawed Arcadia, and the Arcadia/Acheron conflict. But as I see it, it's more LN than LG. More a firm hand goverment to keep everybody lined up in the perfection. 

Center of All's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2004-05-11
Tequila Sunrise wrote:I

"Tequila Sunrise" wrote:
I like your vision of Arcadia and Acheron, though to make my  own overall vision clear, I want to specifically avoid aligning any of the planes. There will be no Great Wheel, just a collection of layers and planes. None of them will be embodiments of any alignment or belief system, even if a plane's inhabitants are universally LG or whatever.

I understand, hence my clarification earlier on about where we'd differ Smiling I'll probably start a new thread of my own for my ideas.

"inkoia" wrote:
I like how you've drawed Arcadia, and the Arcadia/Acheron conflict. But as I see it, it's more LN than LG. More a firm hand goverment to keep everybody lined up in the perfection. 

Well, remember, Arcadia is not pure LG.  It's slightly more lawful than good.  Ultimately, my intent is to create an Arcadia that's defined as "Law for the benefit of the people."  Mechanus would be "Law for Law's sake."  Acheron would be "Law for control of the people."  In my Arcadia, the laws governing kingdoms would be more flexible than Mechanus's or Acheron's because the Arcadian laws are designed to help the people flourish, not oppress them.  Like I said above, the exact flavor of various Arcadian rulers would vary from realm to realm.  One realm might have a benevolent dictatorship while another realm will have an absolute democracy.  Ultimately, I think Arcadian rulers would have the willingness to change their rules if it turns out a law is definitively better or worse for the people they rule.

I place emphasis on generally virtuous rulers, but not absolute virtue.  To me, Celestia represents the "Seven Virtues" concept while Arcadia is a study in benevolent structure.

Hmm, I think I'll make a new thread...

__________________

http://kaitou-kage.deviantart.com/ -- My deviantART gallery

http://www.planescapemetamorphosis.com/ -- Planescape: Metamorphosis, a Planescape webcomic in the works

inkoia's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2009-03-24
Well, this one is for

Well, this one is for Tequila. Have you read "The Death Gate Cycle"? It's some kind of concept of planes aligned to elements that look like worlds. "Earth" it's some kind of subterranean world with lava seas, "Fire" is a world like Arborea. Maybe you can make a coctail with those ideas and the remaked multiverse of the 4th ed. In those books, there are conflicts in every plane. In the "Air" for example, world is an infinite sky with floating islands, and the dwarfs living in the bottom think that people living in the supperior islands are godlike with their flying machines and so on.

 

BlackDaggr's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2007-11-15
Center of All wrote: Simply

Center of All wrote:

Simply put, a several of the planes are largely boring or easily overlooked compared to others.  Some of them feel better-developed or at least much better-suited for adventuring. In other cases, it's hard to create a planar adventure that actually feels planar instead of simply being easily-transposed onto a Prime (something I have personally dealt with). Bytopia, for example, is a neat plane full of hard-working folks, but it's not terribly inspiring on its own, nor is it really all that different from a Prime -- except that you can look up and see the plane's other half.  Arcadia is similar, even with the Harmonium presence.  Rows of neatly-organized orchards is not a terribly exciting prospect. 

Many of the Outer Planes, especially the Upper Planes, suffer from this.  Most of them can be summed up in a single sentence which is good in some circles, but makes for rather bland stretches of infinity.  Many planes (again, especially the Upper Planes and Inner Planes) lack a clear and defining conflict that's noticeable at a glance.  This, I suspect makes them seem superfluous in the eyes of many Planescape critics. 

Some planes have conflicts that are downplayed or glossed over.  Take the war between the facets and the Plane of Water.  To me, that has potential to be an excellent major conflict running throughout the Inner Planes -- and it's something I'm playing up in my game here.  But the facets are so obscure that even many loyal planewalkers barely know what they are. 

Again, this is more of an issue for the Upper Planes and Inner Planes than the Lower Planes.  Most of the Lower Planes are full to overflowing with all sorts of conflicts.  And it's apparent which planes are more popular and more usable because they're seen more.  Baator, the Abyss, Celestia -- these places are not simply popular because they're the homes of devils, demons, and angels.  They're popular because they're incredibly easy to use in comparison.  The current overarching nature of many Upper Planes feels innately geared against any sort of conflict, and what conflict exists can often be replicated on a Prime world.  As a result, it doesn't feel very special going to these planes.  The Inner Planes are static and unchanging, and what potential major conflicts exist are barely explored.  Take the facets vs. Water example.  If the marids decided they've had enough of salt creatures trying to destroy their plane, it'd create a great war that'd provide an easy and very usable reason to go to Water or Salt.

This doesn't apply to all the planes, of course.  The most notable exception that comes to mind for me is Elysium.  It's supposed to be a plane of ultimate contentment and relaxation, so a lack of conflict makes it work.  It's still not especially exciting for running adventures, but conceptually it serves its purpose perfectly.

 

This is one reason I added a number of layers to Arborea (see my Hidden Layers of Arborea article). To me, the original Arborea design almost screamed "we ran out of ideas at layer 3". For the Beastlands, the 3 layers make sense, and there's the inherent conflict between the animals and those they see as interlopers. Celestia is an active plane, while Bytopia is its sleepy neighbor. It definitely has gotten short-changed

In some ways, the upper planes should be relatively conflict-free. After all, the good beings try to avoid harming each other. Some conflicts may occur because of differing beliefs, but the inhabitants are more likely to try solving things without violence.

Of course, one possible source of conflict on the upper planes is evil creatures invading for a particular goal. After all, good creatures (namely, PCs) go to the lower planes to free captured loved ones, or fight some big evil nasty, or whatever. Perhaps some powerful evil group wants to go hollyphaunt-hunting, or wants to capture devas to get their spark. PCs would be called upon to foil such activity.

 

Center of All's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2004-05-11
I'm going to shanghai this

I'm going to shanghai this part of the discussion into my other thread so as not to derail Tequila's thread more than I already have Smiling

__________________

http://kaitou-kage.deviantart.com/ -- My deviantART gallery

http://www.planescapemetamorphosis.com/ -- Planescape: Metamorphosis, a Planescape webcomic in the works

Tequila Sunrise's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-11-17
inkoia wrote: Well, this

inkoia wrote:

Well, this one is for Tequila. Have you read "The Death Gate Cycle"? It's some kind of concept of planes aligned to elements that look like worlds. "Earth" it's some kind of subterranean world with lava seas, "Fire" is a world like Arborea. Maybe you can make a coctail with those ideas and the remaked multiverse of the 4th ed. In those books, there are conflicts in every plane. In the "Air" for example, world is an infinite sky with floating islands, and the dwarfs living in the bottom think that people living in the supperior islands are godlike with their flying machines and so on.

I think I did read one of those books, they're Weis or Hickman books, yes? I remember arrogant elves and naive dwarves, and thinking it was a decent book. [Weis and Hickman seem to be only mediocre unless they work together.]

Planescape, Dungeons & Dragons, their logos, Wizards of the Coast, and the Wizards of the Coast logo are ©2008, Wizards of the Coast, a subsidiary of Hasbro Inc. and used with permission.