Oh lady, my lady were doth thou reside?

26 posts / 0 new
Last post
blackthornes's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2005-04-21
Oh lady, my lady were doth thou reside?

were can i find that stats for the lady of pain? i would really like them, i want to use her in a home campaign i'm thinking of running.

Elethíus's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-05-11
Oh lady, my lady were doth thou reside?

Uh-oh...

blackthornes's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2005-04-21
Oh lady, my lady were doth thou reside?

Im not sure i get the point of that comment, but ok.

Rhys's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2004-05-11
Oh lady, my lady were doth thou reside?

You're just not supposed to stat the Lady of Pain. She's supposed to be a mystery. Basically, it's a long-honored tradition that the Lady is, more than any other entity, never to be put into a situation where she has to roll the dice. She is far beyond anything the PCs can do, and is pretty much unquestioned in her unfathomable power. Asking for the Lady of Pain's stat block is tantamount to high treason among Planescape circles because it treads upon the unspoken law that no one will ever understand her secrets.

Uh, that being said, someone made a serious attempt at statting her at Dicefreaks: CR 208 Lady of Pain.

Nemui's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2004-08-30
Oh lady, my lady were doth thou reside?

What the cipher said. Besides...

You do not want stats for the Lady of Pain. *waves hand Jedi-Mind-Trick style*

Mei
Mei's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2005-05-22
Oh lady, my lady were doth thou reside?

Her Serenity is more like a plot-device then an actual creature or, heaven forbid, deity.

Plus, any attempts to stat her will result in massive flayings (guess WotC suffered some casualties after saying the Lady's LN).

Bob the Efreet's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2004-05-11
Oh lady, my lady were doth thou reside?

The Lady is Sigil. She is its will made manifest.
Or, if I can step around the fourth wall for a moment, she is a plot device, rather than an actual entity.

__________________

Pants of the North!

ripvanwormer's picture
Offline
Factol
Joined: 2004-10-05
Oh lady, my lady were doth thou reside?

"Mei'Ri" wrote:
Her Serenity is more like a plot-device then an actual creature or, heaven forbid, deity.

Less than a plot device. More like flavor text. Asking for stats for the Lady is like asking for the stats for circles or smog. She's something that lurks in the background and is almost never seen and never, ever fought.

That said, if you must stat her, the DiceFreaks stats are as good as any.

Fidrikon's picture
Offline
Factor
Joined: 2004-12-19
Oh lady, my lady were doth thou reside?

If you want the lady of Pain to show up in your campaign, by all emans, have her appear. But dont roll anything. If she attacks anyone, just describe how they die. Preferably in a way gruesome enough to scare your players from getting in her way. If a player interrupts your description of the flaying with anything along the lines of "Im going to try and help that guy"...

Well, thats their mistake. But if you want, you can say he just gets mazed. maybe the Lady switched to decaf in your campaign.

deadone's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-10-26
Oh lady, my lady were doth thou reside?

"Rhys" wrote:
You're just not supposed to stat the Lady of Pain. She's supposed to be a mystery. Basically, it's a long-honored tradition that the Lady is, more than any other entity, never to be put into a situation where she has to roll the dice. She is far beyond anything the PCs can do, and is pretty much unquestioned in her unfathomable power. Asking for the Lady of Pain's stat block is tantamount to high treason among Planescape circles because it treads upon the unspoken law that no one will ever understand her secrets.

Uh, that being said, someone made a serious attempt at statting her at Dicefreaks: CR 208 Lady of Pain.

Dude, I'm not exactly sure that we sanctioned that as canon. Scratch that, I know we didn't sanction that. Bad Phaedros. Baaaaaad.

Eco-Mono's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-05-10
ITP: I refuse to capitalize pronouns

Personally, I have two arguements for why official statistics for Her Serenity can never be created.

The main reason from a metagame perspective is that she represents the last unstatted being in the multiverse. It is an accepted rule of D&D (stated in the DMG, no less!) that there is always a bigger fish than the PCs. But if every being in existance is statted, then there can come a time when the PCs have the most power in the multiverse, which is in opposition to this principle. Thus, in order to assure that Her Serenity is, in fact, the biggest fish, it cannot be explicitly stated how big she is.

The other reason is more of a personal one, having to do with my own theories of her origin. Suffice it to say that were you to stat her, she'd be several hundred levels higher by the time you'd finished.

EDIT: I might also add that the Dicefreaks rendering is horribly insufficient. There are all kinds of system exploits that could allow a theoretical L.50 character to take down that hunk of tinfoil, and thus that should have been taken into account in the statting. For pity's sake, contact some powergamers to suit her up with unfair epic spells!

EDIT 2: After noticing that the Dicefreaks Lady can make up epic spells on the spot, I am thoroughly convinced that I was absolutely wrong a few moments ago. CLEARLY anyone who's been around the block as many times as Ms Pain is blood enough to know what to do with herself in a scrape. That's why she doesn't need me telling her that given how easy it is to buff statistics at a level like hers, she can be sure to kill anything with less that 2100 HD without batting an eye. And that's even before the horrific flaying.

Now that said, stats are still a bad idea, for the reasons I've already stated. Just having a bit of fun with the broken, broken epic spell rules. ;D

blackthornes's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2005-04-21
Oh lady, my lady were doth thou reside?

But you all have to remember that time after time, having an NPC in a campaign, (even if they have no actual Physical appearences), that the PC's can always surpass a creature or beings HD, that is one of the points in my opinion of being epic, is to be able to challange the almighty deities and such, there is never a being that can't be defeated, no matter what. Just think of it, that would be extremely stupid, besides, if shes an avatar, she can't be that strong, a 1200 CR is just stupid, deities aren't even half that.

Scion of Es-Annon's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2005-05-21
Oh lady, my lady were doth thou reside?

I think the answer lies in your definition of defeat

It my opinion, and the opinion of several other posters here, I believe, that while the Lady may be encoutered, she may never be *bested*.

Let's say I write an adventure that puts the players in the position of having to save the residents of a town from an erupting volcano. The village lies right in the path of the boiling hot magma that will destroy anything it comes in contact with. The players have to find a way to deal with the eruption and resuce all of the NPCs from the coming catastrophe.

Let's say they succeed. They resuce every single person, from a little villager named Johnny to Teddy the Arch Lich Magus.

Have they defeated the volcano?

The same issue arises with the Lady of Pain. She is an elemental force of creation, a facet of existance. While she may be able to be dealt with, possibly manipulated, even given the laugh, she is not approachable by normal means. Can you save the villagers from the eruption by taking sword and sheild and magic up against the volcano and defeating it in combat? Not at all. But you can deal with the danger it represents in different fashions, by circumventing the nature of the problem. So it is with the Lady. It's not that you can't stat her: it's that stats for her are meaningless

Rhys's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2004-05-11
Oh lady, my lady were doth thou reside?

"blackthornes" wrote:
But you all have to remember that time after time, having an NPC in a campaign, (even if they have no actual Physical appearences), that the PC's can always surpass a creature or beings HD, that is one of the points in my opinion of being epic, is to be able to challange the almighty deities and such, there is never a being that can't be defeated, no matter what. Just think of it, that would be extremely stupid, besides, if shes an avatar, she can't be that strong, a 1200 CR is just stupid, deities aren't even half that.
And that is precisely why Planescape is not meant for epic level gaming. It just turns into a brawl of the gods. The original boxed set specifically said that Planescape was about the ideas of regular people having profound effects, not about bigger, tougher monsters to hunt while leveling up to take on Thor and steal his job. A Planescape DM isn't supposed to let his players think that they can take on anyone or anything, and he certainly isn't supposed to let them win if they try.

ripvanwormer's picture
Offline
Factol
Joined: 2004-10-05
Oh lady, my lady were doth thou reside?

"blackthornes" wrote:
there is never a being that can't be defeated, no matter what.

The Lady of Pain isn't an NPC. The Lady of Pain might not be a being. She might not even be real. Or she might be something more basic, like Pain itself. Can the PCs defeat pain? Can they defeat entropy? Gravity?

Or perhaps when one confronts the Lady of Pain, one is really confronting oneself.

One of the primary rules of Planescape is that no matter how tough you are, there's always something tougher. There's always going to be something bigger than you, better than you. No matter what.

It's a subset of the Center of All rule.

The gods are meant to show that. The Lady of Pain, who even the gods fear, even more so.

Fidrikon's picture
Offline
Factor
Joined: 2004-12-19
Oh lady, my lady were doth thou reside?

Quote:
if shes an avatar, she can't be that strong, a 1200 CR is just stupid, deities aren't even half that.

First off, while it is widely belived that she is an ( or the) Avatar of Pain, we're not to certain on that.

Now assuming she is, look at the diferances between here and what she is most compared to, a diety.

A god needs worshipers to feed it belief. That is there very essence, and they would not exist without it. While a being of ultimate power could create the world, it could not have been a diety. Because the diety would have no one to worship it into existance.

An Avatar doesn't need belief to fuel it. All it needs is the continued existance of what it embodies. For example, the Lady of Pain gains suestenance from pain accross the multiverse.

This is not to say that she is the cause of all pain, only that she is pain made incarnate.

Now on a planescape full of infinatly large planes, think of how many people accross the multiverse have just stubbed their toe, scrapped a knee, cut their hand, or been hit for damage in combat.
Now think of the Blood War, The constant battles of Acheron, And the fun bar fight-esqe brawling of Ysguard.
Think of how many people died from almost any cause in the time it took for you to read that discription. Most people don't die in comfort.

To kill the lady of Pain, first you must take away here power source: pain.
To do that, kill absolutly every single person, animal, exemplar, and ( possibly) elemental accross the infinate planes, even yourself. Then you win.
(Note: start with the primes first. No sense destroying the bataazue to find out a bunch of guys you just killed went to baator.)

But if even a handful of chipmunks is left in a forest somewhere, and one of them steps on a jagged rock, she still exists.

Thats 'If' she is an avatar. If it turns out she isnt... well, all bets are off.

venjr's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2005-03-31
Oh lady, my lady were doth thou reside?

to tell you the truth blackthornes,i dont like the lady that much and just as most everybody here can verify asking for her stats is like being kicked in the nuts, a lot of people laugh and you are in pain

sphagetti man's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-12-21
Oh lady, my lady were doth thou reside?

true but this is one of FAQ's on the site.

eldersphinx's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-12-06
Oh lady, my lady were doth thou reside?

This is an exemplar of why the Lady of Pain lacks stats. No matter what numbers you make up, a twink can top them by taking everything you have and adding 1. Which can't be done with the Lady of Pain.

blackthornes's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2005-04-21
Oh lady, my lady were doth thou reside?

Please, someone tell me why this does not flick with others that the idea of an, all powerful, non-dying anything, such as the lady of pain, makes no sense. I feel that this is not at all what i expected, and if avatars are stronger than the deities, but still represent things, why do i not hear of the other avatars? and the only other time i've heard of avatars was on fearun, and all they did was gaurd the druidic backroads, and those gaurdians are Fey! this whole avatar thing is kinda pointless.

blackthornes's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2005-04-21
Oh lady, my lady were doth thou reside?

Spaghetti man, I didn't see it on the FAQs, what was that a joke.

Fidrikon's picture
Offline
Factor
Joined: 2004-12-19
Oh lady, my lady were doth thou reside?

Keep in mind, you are talking about the stats of an abstract concept.

Why is she more powerful than the gods?
First off, she is far older.
Second, she is the avatar of the of one of the most base things in existance: pain. Every living thing feels pain. Even gods feel pain, because we beleive that they do.
There are only a handful of other avatars (if they exist somewhere) that would be more powerful:
The avatar (not god!) of death.
The avatar of life.
The avatar of entropy.
This is why Planescape isn't for epic playing. I mean, sure, you can have a hell of a time foiling the yugoloths major schemes, and sometimes you need to be epic to fight your way past the army of contucts that forever guard the artifact you need to summon the soul of the arch mage of old who knows the secret of the Sword of Oblivion.

But in the planes, never can you have no fear. Center of all: there are always bigger fish.

*runs off to write... something*

ripvanwormer's picture
Offline
Factol
Joined: 2004-10-05
Oh lady, my lady were doth thou reside?

"blackthornes" wrote:
if avatars are stronger than the deities.

Forget what everyone else said about the Lady of Pain being an avatar of something. They just did it to confuse you. She's almost definitely not an avatar in the Deities & Demigods sense of the word.

She might well be a deity, but isn't, necessarily. She's a mystery. She's not necessarily more powerful than a demigod or your 3rd level wizard; she doesn't have any stats, so she doesn't need to be. She's not an NPC at all.

Rhys's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2004-05-11
Oh lady, my lady were doth thou reside?

"blackthornes" wrote:
[...]that the PC's can always surpass a creature or beings HD, that is one of the points in my opinion of being epic, is to be able to challange the almighty deities and such, there is never a being that can't be defeated, no matter what.
Well, that is one of the points in my opinion as to why epic gameplay gets stupid when used incorrectly.

The Planescape community is so adamantly against quantifying or even revealing the secrets of the Lady of Pain (and the designers were, too) that the very mention of the topic is an absurd joke to us. It really is a running gag. Asking for the Lady of Pain's statblock is literally the standard sign of a Clueless sod, no joke. I gave you the Dicefreaks version, that's the best you're going to get. We've explained why we're against it, and to even suggest otherwise is heresy.

Shemeska the Marauder's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-04-26
Oh lady, my lady were doth thou reside?

"Rhys" wrote:
Well, that is one of the points in my opinion as to why epic gameplay gets stupid when used incorrectly.

There's epic gameplay, and sadly there's also [booming voice]EPIC[/booming voice] gameplay which is the realms of twinkmasters, powergamers, and people who want to 'beat the game' etc.

Quote:
The Planescape community is so adamantly against quantifying or even revealing the secrets of the Lady of Pain (and the designers were, too) that the very mention of the topic is an absurd joke to us. It really is a running gag. Asking for the Lady of Pain's statblock is literally the standard sign of a Clueless sod, no joke. I gave you the Dicefreaks version, that's the best you're going to get. We've explained why we're against it, and to even suggest otherwise is heresy.

That Dicefreaks version was actually a joke in and of itself. It wasn't a serious thing from them.

Shemeska the Marauder's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-04-26
Oh lady, my lady were doth thou reside?

Excerpt from Planewalker's Sigil chapter, giving details on The Lady in game, and advice for DMs.

The planes have mysteries cutter, and not all of them have answers. Walk the planes long enough and that’s something you’ll take to heart. Some things just are. You don’t question them, you don’t fight them, and you don’t so much as stand in their way. They just exist and you accept it.

Not the lady of pain – no - the Lady of Pain. Her Serenity, Her Dread Majesty, and the ultimate power in Sigil (perhaps anywhere else, it’s reckoned by some). She keeps and controls the portals of the City of Doors, and She bars the powers from entering. Appearing as a tall, robed woman with Her face sprouting a halo and headdress of blades from Her very flesh, She floats silently above the streets of Sigil. She is the protector of Sigil and, by that, all of its inhabitants, not that She likely cares one way or another for anyone in the city. But any threats to Sigil itself or to Her own power and She reacts. During these select few times in Sigil’s history, terrible Her fury has been, and most Cagers prefer to forget such occurrences.

From time to time, She may randomly float down an avenue, passively observing before vanishing around a corner without a trace. Wise bloods look away and avert their eyes, or quickly find business elsewhere. She never speaks; never has in the history of Sigil as far as any know. In the scant few times She’s needed to make Her will known directly She’s done so through one of Her servants, the dabus, as She floats silently behind them, never a mark of emotion crossing Her face. Not that it’s wise to stare into that continence.

She’s not a god, get that straight. She’s something else, more or less; none know the dark of it. But never worship Her, not even in jest. Those who do are found dead; their skin flayed from their bones, seen walking through Sigil when the Lady appears and Her shadow reaches out to strike them. Wherever Her bladed, serrated shadow touches, their body erupts with slashes, wounds and gouges as if from a storm of knives and razors. None have ever survived the touch of Her shadow, nor even been successfully resurrected afterwards. They die, that is certain, for when She acts, She acts with certainty.

The chant even goes that centuries ago, before the Great Upheaval, the Lady penned a true deity into the dead book, Aoskar, the self-proclaimed Portal Father and patron of planewalkers and opportunity. She killed him, simple as that. They say for one reason or another he offended Her, or plotted to take the City of Doors for himself.

The Portal Father

Long ago, before the Shattered Temple District gained its name and the Athar claimed the ruins as their own, the Shattered Temple was the High Temple of Aoskar. At its height, Aoskar claimed nearly half of the residents of the Cage as his worshippers, with many of them whispering a prayer to him before passing into or out of a portal to Sigil. In fact, eventually the worship of Aoskar become nearly synonymous with the City of Doors itself, and a time came when berks began to worship the Lady of Pain as an aspect of him.

Whatever his ultimate reasons, Aoskar’s final offense to the Lady was when one of the dabus took up the robes of his priesthood and endorsed the worship of the Father of Portals, forsaking Her Serenity in doing so. That dabus, still alive and forsaken by his own kind, is known as Fell. None besides him and the Lady know the true dark of what exactly happened, save that the temple, and all within were obliterated in what would be called by some graybeards as the Day of Blades and Fury. The temple was reduced to rubble along with the city surrounding it, and Aoskar, along with all of his mortal worshippers throughout the multiverse, were killed by the lancing shadow of Her Serenity in a single moment of horror. Some claim to have seen the withered husk of Aoskar upon the Astral, its stony face locked into a gasp of terror, one petrified arm raised as if to ward off some attack, and pierced through with glimmering, metallic blades.

Some claim all of his mortal worshippers were slain at the moment of his death, though it is impossible to prove this and it seems to be at the least some level of exaggeration since much of Sigil, in theory, worshipped him at the time. It may be possible that clergy as well as those worshippers who had taken up Aoskar as their patron were similarly affected. The records from the time are however absent or destroyed so all we are left with is speculation and bloody legends.

The symbols and trappings of the faith of Aoskar have since that time been considered anathema within Sigil, such was Her fury that day to not only kill a greater power but all of his mortal host as well. Such are the lengths that the Lady will go to protect Her city and Her position within.

Speculation on the true nature of the Lady is rife among scholars, sages, and the common folks of Sigil alike. But answers are never forthcoming from any source. Still, the common chant, most likely all screed without a shred of proof, holds a number of common myths. Some say that the Lady is a mortal who found Sigil and used it to grant Herself immeasurable power. Other rumors hold that She is a renegade, or risen, tanar’ri lord from the Abyss. Others say that She was hatched from a dabus egg [Whatever that is – The Editor] by Io, the draconic overpower. A few even suggest She may simply be an illusion of the dabus themselves, or their queen, much like that among bees in a hive. Now dead sages, rumored mazed or flayed, have claimed that the Lady is not the ruler of Sigil, but its ultimate prisoner. After all, why else might Sigil be called the Cage? Some have compared the Lady to an overpower, or some unique, but nondivine being, so ancient as to defy mortal definitions. A being who exists to keep Sigil free of any and all divine influences, perhaps in an attempt to balance the planes themselves.

Of course, not a shred of proof exists to shed a light upon the mystery. And those who seek to delve too deeply into the Lady’s secrets tend to vanish without a trace, gone, whisked away on the winds of oblivion.

DM’s Dark: Using the Lady

The Lady of Pain is less an NPC than a setting mechanic. She transcends any game mechanic and has no stats. Should She be directly challenged by PC’s or NPC’s, nothing they do should be capable of hitting or harming Her. Not a wish, not a miracle, not even epic spells. Even the overpowers cannot defy the barriers preventing powers from entering the Cage (not that such beings tend to have interests beyond their sphere of influence anyways). Within Sigil, the Lady of Pain should be considered as close to all powerful as needed. That said, the Lady should not be overexposed or used outside of rare occasions lest She lose the mystique and grandeur that surrounds Her, along with the unknown details of Her history and true connection to Sigil or indeed roll within the multiverse itself.

Those who challenge the Lady are mazed or flayed with no sympathy, malice, or quarter given by Her Serenity. Those who harm Sigil or disrupt the life of the city in grand fashion will suffer the same fate, as will those who seek to delve too deeply into the secrets of the Lady (if they manage to escape insanity in their quest). Some things are beyond the scope of the PC’s in the setting, and interacting with the Lady in all but the most rare and unique fashion should be avoided. At most, a character may see the Lady floating silently down a street in Sigil, or perhaps once in the course of a long and well-developed campaign a PC may witness a flaying or an edict given by the Lady to them or others. Such edicts should be reserved for campaign defining events with major ramifications within Sigil.

Considering all this, the Lady is not omnipotent (not completely, anyways). In terms of the metaplot, certain “weaknesses” have been exploited in the past, and the rare NPC has seemingly come close to gaining some victory over Her, only to ultimately fail (and sometimes with evidence such attempts were merely part of the Lady’s design). In any case, the Lady should always remain above and beyond the ambitions of the PCs.

Planescape, Dungeons & Dragons, their logos, Wizards of the Coast, and the Wizards of the Coast logo are ©2008, Wizards of the Coast, a subsidiary of Hasbro Inc. and used with permission.