No Great Wheel in Pathfinder...

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No Great Wheel in Pathfinder...

Everone was saying how much closer Pathfinder is to the Planescape model than 4E D&D is, but I read thru the section on the planes in the Pathfinder campaign book, and it seems to me to be just as much a divergence from the Great Wheel as the 4E planes. Yeah, a couple of names like Elysium are thrown out, but most of them appear to be AWOL, and their "Nirvana" is not Planescape's "Mechanus". They also have a few of the iconic Planescape monsters such as the Avoral, and they have NE "Daemons", but Yugoloths they ain't... seems like it'd take as much work to convert this baby to Planescape as it would using 4E... but maybe they will add/mention more familiar planes in the final cut of the actual game rules.

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Anime Fan wrote: Everone

Anime Fan wrote:
Everone was saying how much closer Pathfinder is to the Planescape model than 4E D&D is, but I read thru the section on the planes in the Pathfinder campaign book, and it seems to me to be just as much a divergence from the Great Wheel as the 4E planes. Yeah, a couple of names like Elysium are thrown out, but most of them appear to be AWOL, and their "Nirvana" is not Planescape's "Mechanus". They also have a few of the iconic Planescape monsters such as the Avoral, and they have NE "Daemons", but Yugoloths they ain't... seems like it'd take as much work to convert this baby to Planescape as it would using 4E... but maybe they will add/mention more familiar planes in the final cut of the actual game rules.

 

I wouldn't count on it.  The Great Wheel is one of the things that third party companies specifically can't use, because that's copyright WoTC.  They can use some planes that have names identical to names used by the Great Wheel if those names are based in mythology and thus public domain, but they can't use any of the actual Outer Planes from D&D in more than name.  Golarion's Elysium is Elysium in name only, it will only legally be allowed to have the vaguest possible connections with the Elysium of D&D, and it can only even use the name "Elysium" because the name has a mythological basis.  Since, for example, the names "Mechanus" and "Bytopia" have no mythological basis, they can't include a plane even called either of those.  As for other planes - the Inner and Transitive Planes are open in terms of the concept of elemental planes and an astral and ethereal plane.  Even within these planes, however, Paizo couldn't legally take any locations from any of those planes (or the Outer Planes) unless those locations were found in OGL content.  Except Sigil, if it ever appeared in an OGL work (I can't remember if it ever did, but it may have been mentioned in ELH), because it's also listed as WotC product identity. 

Now, on monsters: The Avoral is in the SRD, so that's okay.  The name "Yugoloth" is not, nor are "Baatezu" or "Tanar'ri", but "Daemon", "Devil", and "Demon" are okay, as are using the creatures from the MM in those categories.  Githyanki, Githzerai, and Slaad are entirely off limits, as both of those are WotC product identity, but I believe those are the only major Planescape monsters that are.  However, anything in a Wizards product other than MM you wouldn't be allowed to include considering they aren't released under the OGL and thus including them would be a copyright violation outside licensing agreements; unfortunately, that covers a good half of all Planescape creatures at least, I'd say, since at least that many have since been converted to 3e in some Wizards product.  Outside of two creatures in MM2 (the razorboar and scorpionfolk), the only monsters created by Wizards that are OGL content are those in the MM that aren't specifically excluded as product identity.

Also, I'd disagree that Golarion would take a huge effort to convert to Planescape, given that the cosmology isn't heavily tied to the setting as it is in some.  Consider this: In Dragonlance, the campaign setting's cosmology was that there was only a single plane, the Abyss, and all extraplanar things existed there.  Looking just at the setting, it wasn't "oh those silly Clueless are wrong about how things work", that was actually true for a campaign based solely on Krynn.  The dumb Clueless excuse was just a way for the writers of Planescape to include Krynn in the setting even though Hickman and Weis are still of the standpoint that that was a mistake and Krynn never should have been connected with any other setting.  3e Forgotten Realms has a different cosmology too, but the cosmology was still abstracted from the Prime enough so that it was also easy just to do a cosmology swap without having to change barely anything about FR products besides the names of planes.

If you really want to include Golarion in Planescape, you can do the same thing there.  The cosmology in some settings, like Eberron, is heavily connected to stuff in the Prime, and it does take more work than a swap-out to fit it in.  Pathfinder's setting doesn't seem to be of that sort, though; things prime and planar are fairly heavily separate.  If you really want to replace the cosmology, all you'd have to do is replace some names.

However, personally, I'm going to hold off doing that in any Pathfinder games I run until we see some more stuff on the planes in Golarion.  Given who's doing the cosmology, I have high hopes that it'll be as interesting as the standard Great Wheel.

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That's a great explanation.

That's a great explanation. Smiling

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Oh, sure, Golarion itself

Oh, sure, Golarion itself would be easy to use in a Planescape campaign... I was refering not to that Prime Material Plane world, however, but the surrounding cosmology... for that matter, you could de-attach 4E's "the World" and use in a 2 or 3E Planescape universe by ignoring the 4E planar material and just using the Prime stuff (i.e this one special world has a unique Tiefling form and Dragonborn, etc...) My point was that with either 4E or Golarion AS WRITTEN, you would have to alter the planar layout to make it fit the Planescape Great Wheel model. That's all. You could actually use Golarion in a 4E campaign if you just use the 4E classes where the 3.5 classes are used... granted, there are currently no Druids, Barbarians, Monks or Sorcerors in 4E, but next year's Player's Handbook II should solve that problem, or you could just substitute classes... (i.e. Warlock for Sorceror)

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Anime Fan wrote: Oh, sure,

Anime Fan wrote:
Oh, sure, Golarion itself would be easy to use in a Planescape campaign... I was refering not to that Prime Material Plane world, however, but the surrounding cosmology... for that matter, you could de-attach 4E's "the World" and use in a 2 or 3E Planescape universe by ignoring the 4E planar material and just using the Prime stuff (i.e this one special world has a unique Tiefling form and Dragonborn, etc...) My point was that with either 4E or Golarion AS WRITTEN, you would have to alter the planar layout to make it fit the Planescape Great Wheel model. That's all. You could actually use Golarion in a 4E campaign if you just use the 4E classes where the 3.5 classes are used... granted, there are currently no Druids, Barbarians, Monks or Sorcerors in 4E, but next year's Player's Handbook II should solve that problem, or you could just substitute classes... (i.e. Warlock for Sorceror)

Yeah, that's true.  In fact, that's actually one reason why even though I don't like the cosmology of 4e, I'm not too upset about that part of the system; the cosmology isn't tightly coupled there either.

 Unfortunately, legally, there's no way for any third party company to use the Great Wheel in any fashion.  Not unless Wizards gave them permission for whatever reason, at least.

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Btw, the original name of

Btw, the original name of the Plane of Pure Law was "The Clockwork Nirvana of Mechanus."  So it's actually pretty old-school.  :^)

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Jem wrote: Btw, the

Jem wrote:
Btw, the original name of the Plane of Pure Law was "The Clockwork Nirvana of Mechanus."  So it's actually pretty old-school.  :^)

Actually, the original 1e name was just "Nirvana", no mention of the word "Mechanus" at all, if you want to go really old-school. Laughing out loud

And just for fun, from what I remember for the rest: Beastlands was the Happy Hunting Grounds, the Outlands were the plane of Concordant Opposition (which I still love as a name), the Grey Waste was Hades, Mount Celestia was just the Seven Heavens, Carceri was Tarterus.  I think that's it, but I'm not sure, and I don't want to cheat by checking the 1e MotP just yet. Laughing out loud

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And since a lot of those

And since a lot of those are real-world myth, they're legit!  :^)  I also love "Concordant Opposition."  Though I trust "Happy Hunting Grounds" will remain quashed.  It's a bit on the insensitive side.  IMO.  Perhaps "Primordia."  Or "Eden."  ...I like Eden.  A plane representing the state of innocence that comes from animal simplicity.  Heck, all of a sudden I'm liking that better than "Beastlands."

You came here unarmed?  Well, grow some, quick.  Sure, this is the plane of unspoiled nature -- what does your religion call it?  Paradise? Prelapsaria?  Eden's a common one... right, then, Eden.  Yeah, this is the place: life as it exists untouched by evil.  Some say it's a preserved remnant of what could have been had evil never tainted some glorious vision of the first Creation.  Some say it's the template that the good Creator gods use for new worlds, the best possible state of nature.  But whether it's just the state of affairs on the Prime Material, or constant interference by Evil, nowhere else is quite like this, and that's why I defend it from clueless sods like you. 

And defend sods like you from it.  See, just because Eden ain't evil doesn't mean there aren't things like pain and fear here.  There's no death, leastways not for the petitioners as long as they care to stay.  But paradise for some of these creatures is the hunt and the feast, the fight for status and territory.  What, you think lions spend the afterlife eating coconuts?  They're predators.  But even prey that gets caught just pops gets reborn to parents somewhere else on the plane.  Yeah, there's sex here too, what kind of paradise did you expect? 

Anyway, there's enough of the problems to make the good parts of their afterlife sweeter.  Things just work out for the natives without them thinking about it, they just end up in the right places.  But us living sods running around thinking about things too much, we're not in our place here, and we can be prey too, for real.  So... I've got a spare bow.  How's your archery?

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Jem wrote: And since a

Jem wrote:

And since a lot of those are real-world myth, they're legit!  :^)  I also love "Concordant Opposition."  Though I trust "Happy Hunting Grounds" will remain quashed.  It's a bit on the insensitive side.  IMO. 

 

It sounds a little weird compared to other plane names, yeah, but I don't know if it's any more insensitive than "Gehenna" or some of the Hindu-, Chinese-, or Japanese-based realms.  I mean, that's the actual name for the afterlife for a lot of the Great Plains tribes, only translated into English.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_hunting_ground

I love your "Eden"/"Paradise" idea for it, though, and I think that sounds like a really cool approach to the plane.

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The planar landscape of

The planar landscape of Pathfinder isn't a copy but rather along the same thematic lines, in the same way I'd use Beyond Countless Doorways as a reference for PS over a lot D&D material...though I've been pleasantly surprised by some of the stuff in the "magazines" WotC is putting out.

Thematically Pathfinder and PS parallel each other. Gods hold realms in the Outer Planes and interact more directly with the world, the elemental and energy planes exist along with the Ethereal. The Outer Planes and Outer Sphere are kissing cousins, and despite the at times confusing name switches it's easy to see where you can take something out of Pathfinder's planes.

Even daemons quest for oblivion, while a different take on NE, can be substituted for the loth's goal of the final triumph of evil. That said, I'm not wholly convinced daemons are easily ported into the race of yugoloths but I think that's more of a case by case basis. I could easily see Pharasma, Judge of the Dead, in Mechanus since that's where On Hallowed Ground placed the Hindu psychopomp Yama.

Really though we'll have to wait for Shemmy to give us The Great Beyond before we can make any final judgments regarding compatibility.

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sciborg2 wrote: Really

sciborg2 wrote:
Really though we'll have to wait for Shemmy to give us The Great Beyond before we can make any final judgments regarding compatibility.

...

 That said, I'm not wholly convinced daemons are easily ported into the race of yugoloths but I think that's more of a case by case basis.

Smiling

And for the daemons and 'loth compatability, the daemons are their own thing, but there are some very easily portable elements. Their philosophy isn't a monolithic thing, and they have different variations of just how and why multiversal oblivion is to be accomplished. One of the archdaemons, Trelmarixian, is pretty much directly snagged from the arch-'loth Trelmarixian the Black in my campaign(s) [albeit one that hasn't shown up yet, though two of its siblings were mentioned in some brief little fiction blurbs - see http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?image=yugoloth3paircolortextuen6.jpg ]

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Shemmy, will we get more on

Shemmy, will we get more on the motivations of the respective fiendish races and as importantly the celestials? WotC really dropped the ball with regard to both of these facets, leaving us with handicapped articles on Abyssal Lords...just how many times can we see "all demons are barbaric murderers, but this guy takes it up to 11"?

Really curious about the elemental factions as well, glad to see legitimate planes there.

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Very much so if I have

Very much so if I have anything to say about it. I'd love to explore their goals and motivations, given the space to do so. Currently I'm working on the proteans, and making them distinct as a type of chaos away from the randomness and sometimes goofy/eat your face off sort of treatment the Slaad too often received.

Don't get me wrong, I adore slaadi, but I'm hoping to provide a race of chaotic exemplars that have a broad appeal and wouldn't be prone to the superficial treatment or non-treatment like the slaadi received from WotC.

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Shemeska the Marauder

Shemeska the Marauder wrote:

Very much so if I have anything to say about it. I'd love to explore their goals and motivations, given the space to do so. Currently I'm working on the proteans, and making them distinct as a type of chaos away from the randomness and sometimes goofy/eat your face off sort of treatment the Slaad too often received.

Don't get me wrong, I adore slaadi, but I'm hoping to provide a race of chaotic exemplars that have a broad appeal and wouldn't be prone to the superficial treatment or non-treatment like the slaadi received from WotC.

I always felt that something better should have been done with a race of chaotic exemplars.  The Modrons fit in perfectly as lawful exemplars being based on geometric shapes, but I always felt a chaotic exemplar race should be, well a little more fluid or formless in shape.

I know they suggested the ancient primordial Slaad were that way, but as toads WotC never did much to distinguish them from the Tanar'i in many cases.

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Idran

Idran wrote:

 Unfortunately, legally, there's no way for any third party company to use the Great Wheel in any fashion.  Not unless Wizards gave them permission for whatever reason, at least.

"In any fashion" is a bit strong.  The Tome of Horrors has a lot of WotC IP that was validly put into Open Game Content by Necromancer Games with permission.  Even if you don't apply any extrapolation, it at least adds the Nine Hells, the Abyss, Hades, Gehenna, Tarterus, Limbo, Elysium, Acheron, Para-Elemental Plane of Mud, and Quasi-Elemental Plane of Lightning to the SRD's Material, Astral, Ethereal, Shadow, Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Positive, and Negative.  The SRD monster section further establishes at least the existence of a lawful good plane and a chaotic good plane to join those.

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see wrote:Idran

see wrote:
Idran wrote:

Unfortunately, legally, there's no way for any third party company to use the Great Wheel in any fashion.  Not unless Wizards gave them permission for whatever reason, at least.

"In any fashion" is a bit strong.  The Tome of Horrors has a lot of WotC IP that was validly put into Open Game Content by Necromancer Games with permission.  Even if you don't apply any extrapolation, it at least adds the Nine Hells, the Abyss, Hades, Gehenna, Tarterus, Limbo, Elysium, Acheron, Para-Elemental Plane of Mud, and Quasi-Elemental Plane of Lightning to the SRD's Material, Astral, Ethereal, Shadow, Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Positive, and Negative.  The SRD monster section further establishes at least the existence of a lawful good plane and a chaotic good plane to join those.

 

First off, you'll notice a common thread in all those names.  Those are all names that are pre-existing in the public domain, and thus legally they are not WotC IP.  Thus why the terms "Tarterus" and "Nine Hells" are used instead of "Carceri" and "Baator", respectively.  That's why, I assume, nothing mentioning Mechanus or Bytopia are listed in there.  The idea of a plane of mud and lightning are also already generic enough that legally they couldn't be WotC IP; this is why they made no attempt to keep the elemental and energy planes out of the SRD, I can guess.  Further, in fact, the idea of alignment-based outer planes for all alignments are in the SRD.  The idea of an LG plane is in the SRD, Mount Celestia specifically is not.

A question, since I haven't read Tome of Horrors yet myself, I have to admit: how much information that definitively refers to things from the WotC conceptions of the planes listed are given, things which are definitely not public domain in any fashion?  For example, the idea of the Nine Hells in general is on the surface just Dante's hell, so the idea of an LE hell plane with multiple layers and whatnot is public domain, as are the city of Dis, Asmodeus, and other mythological figures and locations.  The Pillar of Skulls is not public domain, because it was a unique creation and thus part of Wizards' IP.  The City of Brass is mythological, and thus public domain.  The City of Glass is a unique creation and is not.  How much in Tome of Horrors falls into the "unique creation of WotC" category?

 

Edit: Thinking about it, I realized that this might sound a lot more confrontational than I intended.  I'm not trying to bash your claim or anything, I'm honestly curious about the answer to this.  Especially because it can get really confusing what with how much of D&D's planar flavor draws on the public domain.  I hope this didn't sound too much like an attack on you, I was just asking for clarification is all.

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Hmm, let me phrase it this

Hmm, let me phrase it this way:  it has no Planescape material.

Necromancer Games is about "First Edition Feel", so what you have in the way of planar bits is the stuff that was in 1st edition AD&D (and, since it's based on monster entries, it doesn't have 1e Manual of the Planes detail, either).  This is enough (with the SRD and some logical extrapolation) to reconstruct the basic seventeen aligned Outer Planes (although the extrapolated planes don't come with names) and a full set of quasi/para-/elemental Inner Planes, but doesn't get you the Blood War or City of Glass or Sigil.

So, a third-party company can't use Planescape elements . . . but you can have events where someone goes down the Styx on a mission from Pazuzu, from an Abyss full of CE demons to a Tarterus with demodands, then Hades with daemons and Gehenna with barghests, and finally into the Nine Hells of the devils to negotiate with Dispater.

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see wrote: So, a

see wrote:

So, a third-party company can't use Planescape elements . . . but you can have events where someone goes down the Styx on a mission from Pazuzu, from an Abyss full of CE demons to a Tarterus with demodands, then Hades with daemons and Gehenna with barghests, and finally into the Nine Hells of the devils to negotiate with Dispater.

That's the long and short of it, yep.

And that sounds like an interesting direction, how you described Necromancer Games.  I've heard good things about them before, although never in much detail.  Hearing their "mission statement" as it were like that, I'll have to keep a wider eye out for their work now.

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I just view it as there is

I just view it as there is no "open" great wheel. If you want a great wheel use it, if you do not do not use it.

Alexi

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