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New, (Non-power) based faiths

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Mon, 2009-07-27 01:25
#1
Degausser
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New, (Non-power) based faiths

Hey guys, just got my hands on divine power. Now, previously, divine characters HAD to worship a god, which didn't mesh too well with the great wheel, as Planescape introduced a LOT of godless faiths. However, with the new domains, it is now possible to create godless faiths without limiting divine characters by preventing them from taking their chosen deity feats.

In short, assign three domains to each godless faith, and suddenly, you have viable options for godless divine characters. While not strictly allowed by the books, it is a good work around, I think. So, off the top of my head, here are some ideas.

Athar Faith: The great beyond Faith: Domains: Freedom, Hope, Knowledge

Believers in the Source Faith: The Source: Domains: Knowledge, Skill, Strength

Xaosists: Pure Chaos: Domains: Madness, Creation, Destruction, Change

The Dustmen: True Death: Domains: Death, Undeath, Life

The Doomguard: Entropy: Domains: Fate, Destruction, Strength

Other non-god faiths are possible, including:

Sensation (Fall-from-Grace from Planescape: Torment) Knowledge, Skill, Civilization

Good: Hope, Protection, Life

Evil: Tyranny, Destruction, Death

Law: Civilization, Arcana, Knowledge

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Mon, 2009-07-27 16:29
#2
Clueless
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I'm liking where this is

I'm liking where this is going - I've not got the book to compare - so how much of a stretch of hte existing ruleset is this?

Mon, 2009-07-27 17:03
(Reply to #2) #3
Degausser
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The Book specifically states

The Book specifically states that you must worship a god (or a pantheon) to get your divine powers.  However, now that there are 'domains.'  Each god is associated with 2 or 3 domains.  Now, instead of getting the specific deity feat (such as the super turn-undead from Pelor) you can pick up a chanel divinity feat related to a domain.  In addition, you can pick up special "Domain feats" that give various bonuses, usually a +2 bonus to a skill and they improve some divine at-will powers.

So, all I did was assign 3 or 4 domains to a non-god faith.  The extra domain is to make up for the lack of a diety-specific feat.

There is no mechanical reason (except for the aformentioned rule) that divine characters can't belong to a non-deity faith except that there were no non-deity faiths listed and divine characters had less options because they couldn't choose deity feats.  Now that this is out of the way, I think it works fine, as long as you are willing to ignore one specific rule in the book, which has no mechanical effect one way or the other.

 

For example, let's say I wanted to make the faith for the Transendent Order.  Now, the order is all about interpreting the will of the multiverse and following it's ebbs and flows.  Fate seems like a natural choice for the group, as the order is all about interpreting how the multiverse flows.  The great gymnasium focuses on training the mind and body at once, so skill is another good choice.  Lastly, the order emphisises action and reaction without thought, so knowledge is out, but change is a good fit.  Thus we get:

The Transedent Order:The Will of the multiverse: Domains: Fate, Skill, Change

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Wed, 2009-07-29 10:20
#4
Kobold Avenger
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I remember them mentioning

I remember them mentioning in a bunch of places that divine characters can simply draw their power from philosophical concepts.  And therefore no established faith is needed for any faction.  Clearly ignoring the requirements of worshipping a power for the purposes of domain feats.

Thu, 2009-07-30 18:38
(Reply to #4) #5
Degausser
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Kobold Avenger wrote: I

Kobold Avenger wrote:

I remember them mentioning in a bunch of places that divine characters can simply draw their power from philosophical concepts.  And therefore no established faith is needed for any faction.  Clearly ignoring the requirements of worshipping a power for the purposes of domain feats.

 

That was certainly common in 3.5, but I don't think I've seen it in 4th Ed yet.  There is one entry in Divine Power where it mentions that you can worship a pantheon, or a set of gods that work togeather commonly (Such as Ioun and Corellon, who are gods of knowledge and magic, respectivly).  In any case, there is no mechanical difference between worshipping a specific god and not, other than you don't have access to a specific god's feat, a downside pretty easily mitigated with the advent of domain feats.

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Thu, 2009-07-30 20:39
#6
Anime Fan
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In the 4E Player's Handbook

In the 4E Player's Handbook in the description of the Cleric, it mentions that "philosophies" might be the source of power for some Clerics, so YES, at least in the case of Clerics, it explicitly states that you can worship a philosophy and get powers. By extention, Avengers and Paladins should be able to do the same. Invokers are a special case, since they supposedly get their powers not from their faith but directly from their chosen deity. So maybe no Athar Invokers, unless you assume the Great Unknown is definitely real...? And anyway, Invokers supposedly support ALL the Gods, which ain't the case with Athar, who (at most) worship only the Great Unknown. Of course, maybe your Athar Invoker is a renegade who STOLE the power...!

(P.S. While the selection of Domains is pretty complete and well-rounded, oddly enough the elements are not present. "Sun", "Moon", "Wilderness", "Sea", and "Winter" are there, but not "Air", "Fire" or "Water". "Earth" is present, but it is clear from the context that they mean the ground or the planet, not the element. Maybe because the elements are associated with the Primordials in this edition???)

Thu, 2009-07-30 21:38
(Reply to #6) #7
Degausser
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Yeah, okay.  Sorry, there

Yeah, okay.  Sorry, there is one sentence where it says clerics can worship philosophies in the book that I missed (PHB1, page 61) but in every other instance it mentions worshiping a god, so, can you blame me for missing one sentance?

Anywho, invokers work if you rework their description.  What if, instead of a being with a fragment of power, they are just another 'offshoot' of cleric, like an artificer is kinda an offshoot of wizard?  Alternately, they could be an embodyment of a faith, where portents could lead clerics to realize the invoker is the next scion of the faith?

I, too, noticed the lack of elements, but I attributed that to a new direction with divine stuff.  WoTC seems to be gearing clerics more towards philosophies and concepts, and less towards elements.

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Thu, 2009-07-30 22:11
#8
Kobold Avenger
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I've interpreted Invokers as

I've interpreted Invokers as deriving power from the source of the God's powers, which is divine energy in itself which they can do independently of any Gods.  And therefore I generally feel that Athar are more likely to be Invokers over Clerics.

Fri, 2009-07-31 18:01
#9
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I've always put Athar down

I've always put Athar down as the Ur-Priest prestige class. Since they hate the gods and don't trust them, or want to prove they are better than them, or whatever their reasoning behind joining the faction, they choose to steal power rather than beg for it as clerics do. It's hard work, but it pays off because they can give the powers the proverbial finger and say "HA, i don't need you anyway!"

Generally i ignore the evil pre-req and as such the Rebuke Undead class ability mirrors alignment in the same way it would for a cleric (Turn for good, choice for neutral and Rebuke for evil ones).

I don't think i've ever let an Athar character begin as a cleric, if they wanted cleric-like powers they had to work up the pre-reqs and find another Ur-priest to train them which is incredibly hard. The only exception was for those who came into the faction after already being a cleric (i.e. ex-cleric); there is generally someone on hand to train them since they are such valuble assets.

In the case of using ideology itself as a "religion" from which to derive power i'll admit i've never done that before nor really even considered it as an option. Maybe it was okay for characters who didn't ideally draw their power from gods, like duids or rangers but i can't see it flowing too smoothly for a faction. Granted the power of belief on the Planes is amazing but i'm not sure my players would go for it so much unfortunately...especially not with Athar.

Just my take on Athar and divine magic...

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Fri, 2009-07-31 20:30
#10
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Very cool idea for how to

Very cool idea for how to handle those, mind if I include some of the ideas floated in this discussion in a sidebar in our PS Campaign Setting for 4th?

Mon, 2009-08-03 08:16
#11
catland93
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I like it. It will be good

I like it.

It will be good in a sidebar of ps4e setting.

We could introduce some new domain to complete the selection for factions and sects and for the old divinities.

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Mon, 2009-08-03 08:32
#12
Degausser
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Feel free to use any stuff I

Feel free to use any stuff I post, as long as you give me a bit of credit if you repost it online.  Just a line saying "Inspired by Degausser" and maybe a link to the thread.  I'm not trying to be egotistical or anything, it's just nice to have your stuff recognized.

New Domains huh?  I might get to working on that.  Since there is a "Madness" domain, I might try to make an opposite, like a "Harmony" domain that would be used by the Harmonium.  I'll think about it.

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Mon, 2009-08-03 09:03
#13
Degausser
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I have had a bit of a

I have had a bit of a brainstorm, and decided that most new faiths need four domains, to make up for a power's specific channel divinity feat that they don't get.  I already did this for "Pure chaos" for the chaosmen, but I figured most of the other faiths NEED a fourth domain, in order for them to make sense, so here is my revised list for priests who follow specific faction philosophies.

Alignments: I prefer using the Old alignment system in 4th ed.  To that end, I also allow divine characters to be one 'alignment off' from their deity.  Exception exist, for example, to worship pure chaos, you must be chaotic.  Both the Athar and Godsmen faiths are NG (as they are both devoted to actualizing your potential.)

Athar Faith: The great beyond Faith: Domains: Freedom, Hope, Knowledge

Believers in the Source Faith: The Source: Domains: Knowledge, Skill, Strength, Hope (as in, hope to achieve godhood.)

Xaosists: Pure Chaos: Domains: Madness, Creation, Destruction, Change

The Dustmen: True Death: Domains: Death, Undeath, Life, Fate 

The Doomguard: Entropy: Domains: Fate, Destruction, Strength, War (We all knew this was comming.)

New Orders:

Mercykillers: Absolute Justice: Domains: Justice, Strength, Vengence, Tyranny

Fraturnity of Order: Absolute Law: Domains: Knowledge, Skill, Civilization, Tyranny

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Mon, 2009-08-03 11:51
(Reply to #13) #14
catland93
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I think of Creation is very

I think of Creation is very good for guvners and godsmen instead of tiranny(guvners) and knowledge(godsmen).

Trickery for Chaosman is maybe better of Destruction and life is not really good for dustmen.

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Mon, 2009-08-03 09:34
#15
catland93
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Other possibile

Other possibile domains:

Air

Animals

Arts

Balance

Beauty

Community

Crafts

Disease

Earth

Fear

Fire

Friendship

Healing

Heroism

Hunting

Lies

Mercy

Music

Passion

Prophecy

Rage

Time

Trade

Water

Weather

 

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Mon, 2009-08-03 16:34
(Reply to #14) #16
Degausser
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catland93 wrote: I think of

catland93 wrote:

I think of Creation is very good for guvners and godsmen instead of tiranny(guvners) and knowledge(godsmen).

Trickery for Chaosman is maybe better of Destruction and life is not really good for dustmen.

You bring up good points, and are certainly free to make those changes in your campaign.  Here are the reasons I used what I did.

The Godsmen are all about self-actualization, becomming the best you can be, in hopes of being reincarnated as something better in the next cycle.  Skill, Knowledge, and Strength are all ways that you can go about realising your potential.  

The Guvners, as I understand them, are all about ruling the multiverse through laws.  While I agree, Tyranny has VERY negative connotations, it is also the only domain that remotely resembles ruleing.  They wish to understand all laws and thus control all things in the multiverse, sounds kinda tyrannical to me, at least, the evil members might think so.

As for the chaosmen, I took the idea directly from the Factol's Manifesto.  It specifically talks about how the Chaosmen will create brilliant pieces of art one day, and destroy half the hive the next.  The book talks about the duality of chaos, it's ability for creation and destruction.

Lastly, for the Dustmen, remember that the whole goal of the dustmen is to attain 'True Death' so that they can be reborn into true life.  They are not death worshippers (at least, most of them are not) but instead they are dedicated to finding true life.  However, you could take out the life domain, they could simply have fate, death, and undeath.

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A great role player thinks of others' characters.

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