New here

7 posts / 0 new
Last post
DmAlchemist's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-05-09
New here

I'm new to the boards and have a question about a possible alteration to Planescape. I've always liked alot about the planescape setting, but it does revolve heavily around my least favorite aspect of D&D..Alignment . I just don't like it being so tangible good and evil aren't concepts to be debated or wrestled with they are as real and observable as gravity or magnetism...want to solve any ethical dilemna just cast detect good/evil and be done, Theology just go down the street and ask your GOD. The team jersey aproach to Good and Evil, whole races born Good or evil, no relativism whatsoever just black and white good cultures and bad ones. I want to run a Planescape like campaign but I hate the whole Alignment/Planes Great-Wheel thing. I understand alot of people love it for just that reason but it's not my cup of tea.

I guess what I'm asking is has anyone else ever given any thought to a differing cosmolgy for Planescape maybe without being able to travel to the abode of a diety, or all of the planes based on alignment. I would greatly appreciate any feedback.

crapcore's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2005-07-20
New here

You can also see the planes as a manifestation of "ideas" instead of alignment, for example you can see Arcadia as a plane of harmony, Mnt. Cilesta as a plane for the reach of personal perfection, Baator as the plane of corruption, ect.
And when the gods live on the planes, this doesn't mean you can walk up to a deity just to say hi, you still be communicating through proxy's or avatars at best, you can say the gods are rather busy or their divine energy is to powerful to be in the same room as simple mortals

Just my two stingers

Clueless's picture
Offline
Webmonkey
Joined: 2008-06-30
New here

What crapcore said about visiting gods is right - most dieties do *NOT* like to be visited (legends of exposure to Zeus's true form burning the flesh away from his worshippers come to mind). They're just as chattery to you as they would be on the Prime - aka, communications through communions and divinations.

As for alignment, I think you may have had the wrong exposure to it. Alignment in plancescape is both more obvious and less important actually than a regular game. It becomes *more* relative, not less. I'm not sure who you played under before - but they obviously totally *missed* something.

It's one of the few settings where a player has a legit reason to know what his own alignment is - b/c the planes themselves will react to it. But because it's so well known - it's not an over riding factor at *all* - it becomes somethign of a blase 'meh - we got tons of those' response.

There's absolutely no reason to think you can resolve any problem just by doing a detect evil - not all evil people are actually doing evil, and ditto for good. Not all evil people are breaking the law - for example, there'd be *no* reason to go kill Uncle Scrooge just cause he registered on the detect evil. And you can't go evil just because of one single action either, so it's not so easy to determine the 'correct' path through a delimma. Being good or evil takes into account your motives - not just your actions.

The relativism of Planescape gets even *stronger* when you consider that philosophy is *much* more important in the planar culture than good/evil alignment. Philosophy and natural animosity is behind the Blood War. Philosophy drives much of the politics of Sigil. And philosophies are *not* nailed down in alignments.

For example: The Harmonium is about law and getting along, sounds all LG right? Well - they've got an equal number of LE too that are all for the exact same thing - "by force if nessecary". Some of the LG members are the toughest too worse than the LE ones, because "it's for your own good".

Or the Doomguard. Everything's falling apart, go entropy! Well, that sure sounds CE right? Not really. There's a sizable sect of the Doomies that think things are falling apart yes - but falling apart *too fast*, and are acting as preservationists: LG (ish).

Odd bedfellows and all - this makes alignment one of *many* character traits, not just the overriding one. I really think your previous exposure to alignment in Planescape was a little one dimensional.

The 'whole races born to Good / Evil' I assume you meant the celestials and fiends? They're not just 'born' to it. They *are* it. They are the distilled living essence of their alignment. On some level they are created by the planes and the belief of millions of Primes as much as anything else. Which means on some level, when one of them falls or rises, they're gaining their free will. (Or perhaps some adventurer swung a village somplace to a different alignment.) To be honest - of all the species 'born' to an alignement, and it's not fair to say this is just a Planescape thing - look at dragons for example - they're the ones with the best *reason* for being how they are. At least with a yugoloth they can point out that they're made of the very essence of evil. A red dragon just woke up on the wrong side of his eggshell, regardless of if he was raised by golds.

Another note - not all the planes *are* alignment based. Just the Great Wheel. Don't forget the Inner Planes, and the Transitive Planes.

DmAlchemist's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-05-09
Sorta not the point

I understand that any campaign has whatever you want to put into it but I just don't like the Great wheel and I really Hate D&D Alignment system.

Just a personal preference. Surely someone else has thought of differnet possible PS cosmologies.Where every place in the Universe is directly linked to an ethical concept As for demons/dragons and the like them BEING evil is exactly what I want to do differently, more like Robert Asprin's MYTH Inc. series thats one I really wanted to homage in the planescape game. Or dare I say it :Angel, (yeah the TV show about the Vampire) style take on Demon, some good some bad some worse than others.

About the God thing, I do not wish to confirm the existance god/afterlife etc. I don't want there to be concrete observable answers to Theological/Philosophical questions. Thats one big reason I'm against the alignment thing, the Planes that people travel on a routine basis, in my opinion, shouldn't be the abode of the dead and the gods. In the PS campaign I'm working up Nobody knows what happens when you die.

simmo's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-05-11
New here

You can have a planescape campaign without going to the planes. In the Planescape setting the alignment system is simply directions on a compass with vast tracks of 'grey' in between.

Archons might exemplify Lawful Good and Yugoloths exemplify Neutral Evil - but there are risen fiends and fallen celestials that make things less than clear-cut. There's a Yugoloth in Sigil who runs a shop called the Friendly Fiend. No one is sure if he's evil or not (no one has reported him doing anything evil) and he's a very polite and generous shop-keeper. The book "Uncaged: Faces of Sigil" is full of characters that aren't quite who they appear - I like it because it's very well written and also because it turns quite a few creature/alignment stereotypes on its head.

Knowing that it is possible to travel to the Outer planes and visit realms where souls travel to in the afterlife gives planars a jaded 'been-there-seen-that' attitude because they don't have to rely on faith, they've seen it first-hand. But like I said at the beginning of my post, you don't need to have planar travel as an ingredient in a planescape campaign.

Questions about if there is an afterlife can remain left unanswered, or have multiple answers that are each correct (as they are each partial views on an overall truth). Belief has power! That's one of the fundamental rules and as Clueless pointed out: in the Factions a person's alignment is secondary to which philosophy they subscribe to.

The Great Wheel is the standard view of the planar cosmology and worlds such as Forgotten Realms have a different view of how the planes interconnect. The Norse have another view and so forth. The Wheel is one of many ways to view the planes. Here is a link to a few other ways to view the planes: http://www.mimir.net/mapinfinity/index.html

The 'Rule of Three', 'Unity of Rings' and 'Centre of All' is in my opinion what gives dimensional travel in the planes its defining characteristics. There may be more planes that those in the Great Wheel and they may be represented in a variety of different ways. But it's those fundamentals that make planescape what it is for me. Belief has power, the planes are shaped by them and even if the campaign that I've run has little or no dimensional travel, those three ingredients are at the core of it all.

DmAlchemist's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-05-09
New here

The Alternate Maps were most helpful thank you thats a step in the right direction, but I think I'm not managing to articulate what I mean here. I just want to be rid of the Great Wheel and Manifest Gods in the campaign. PS is a great setting and I have played it and loved playing it, I just want to do something different. Like the Alternate Cosmolgies from Manual of the Planes, Maybe the "Myriad Planes" or "Winding Road" cosmolgies, I just thinking about how to run a PLanescape inspired campaign in the Alternitive cosmos. Sigil could still exist it doesn't NEED the Spire, I(t could be a Torus shaped demi-plane that is on no known Planar Geography and yet seems to connect to Everywhere in deffiance of all known Planar Laws, making it an completely new mystery.

I don't WANT the Realms of the Gods/Spirits to be accessible, you said it yourself It's not essential to Planescape, a few key themes are (Alignment planes are not the only way represent "Belief has Power"). I DO want the Multiplanar travel element of the Campaign I just want planes that aren't based solely on Alignmental/Moral concepts. The whole Pattern/Chaos thing I have less objection too because it seems more objective than the classic D&D: Good vs. Evil. Order and Chaos are more like Forces of Nature, good and evil are subjective concepts that vary from culture to culture. I also want Demons to be more of a PC kinda race and viwed a little bit more as a magical creepy elder race than "Embodiment of Mortal concepts of evil"

Like I said I Love alot of things about Planescape, some I really don't like, I don't want to downplay them I want to remove them from the setting. I was just asking if anyone on the board had ever looked into similar modifications of the Core Planescape setting.

simmo's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-05-11
New here

I've not done the modifications that you've described with the exception of visiting a Power's realm. In one of my campaigns the characters came close to visiting a realm and one went inside (as she was a chosen to carry a divine shard) - but in general I've steered clear of using them. Removing them altogether sounds a reasonable thing to do if you don't want to include them.

http://www.montecook.com/mpress_Doors.html is something I've heard good things about. It describes more planes and have some interesting concepts described therein.

Modifications that I tend to include in my planescape campaigns are: a strong steampunk influence, a wide variety of sources of magic and the "never assume" rule. For example, simply because a fiend is supposed to exemplify a certain alignment - does not mean that they will behave as expected.

The demons in Buffy/Angel are interesting, but in my mind they are simply funny looking people with some unusual powers. What I like about how they are presented in the Planescape setting (such as in "Fiends: Faces of Evil") is that fiends are inhumanly evil. The same goes for other races such as Rilmani, modrons, Slaad etc - their thoughs and cosmos-viewpoints are not human.

That's just my two cents though - my attempts at running a Sliders (TV show) inspired campaign using variations on D&D settings and elements of Spelljamming did not work all that well. Mostly because I've had more success with campaigns based around cosmologies that the DM and players are more familiar with.

Planescape, Dungeons & Dragons, their logos, Wizards of the Coast, and the Wizards of the Coast logo are ©2008, Wizards of the Coast, a subsidiary of Hasbro Inc. and used with permission.