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Gamermage's picture
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New to forums, need help from the experts

Hello Planewalker members. I am a longtime gamer but just arrived new members to these forums...

 Anyway... I'm planning a rather weird Planescape game for my group soon. Basically D20 modern/Planescape...

 I have read the Modern planescape project but that's really not what I'm looking for. What I want to do is take pcs from the a setting I've created (sort of a mix Dark Matter/Urban Arcana) and have them discover the multiverse by having them getting involved with a UN group that recently discovered a previously unworking planar portal that leads from Earth to Faerie.

I'm going to go with a setup where Earth, unlike other prime worlds has had it's magical levels fluctuating over the centuries and thus because magic waned, technology took magic's place in the world. However now magic is on the rise again and the old doorways are opening up again...

As a side question:

With that in mind I read over the ready made ready-made Urban Arcana adventure and in there the pcs discover a group called the planar trade consortium led by an ogre mage called Estevan who has access to a planar portal out of earth...

Now I'm not the most informed planescape fan. But I seem to remember the Planar Trade Consortium from my old 2nd edition days. Is my memory deceiving me?

Anyway back on topic... 

Anyway, my idea is to run a sort of Stargate like campaign with the pcs discovering weird worlds, getting into trouble, making alliances, etc.

As the campaign progresses, my idea is to have Earth's goverments getting pulled into planar politics and having the pcs working to bring Earth up to speed on how things really work.

So here's where I need help from you guys. As part of the story arc, my idea is to have earth's reemerging magic catch the eyes of planar forces and having them all race to seize the opportunity to cash in on a rediscovered prime material world.

Problem is I can't think of a good long term antagonist for the pcs. Not becausee I don't have lots of options. But I'd like an original enemy and try to steer clear somewhat of the usual demons, devils and such. So I'd appreciate suggestions...

Another thing I'd appreciate some suggestions is how I could introduce a party from  earth to magic and such without jumping the gone too fast. I want them to start off on earth discovering magic, the supernatural etc. To do this I'd like to try and use real world mythology, have tme explore ruins etc.

My third problem is real world mythology is quite far off from Planescape and oven in real world mythology, most places that would qualify as outer planes don't have travel to there work in the same manner as the way Planescape describes it. I'd appreciate suggestion son consolidating these two topics

thanks in advance Smile 

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Nope - it's not decieving

Nope - it's not decieving you. That was in fact the PTC from Planescape. Smiling

In order to help you with some good opponents for your PCs - I need to know what PCs you have really. I always prefer to put bad guys out that your players and player characters can really take a *dislike* to. So tell us about your crew. Smiling

For starting them off slow - I would start them off with local Earth ruins and maybe some portals leading to fairly remote or isolated areas. Demi planes, other Primes, and remote backwater locations on the planes. Remember, not all Clueless are Primes - there're plenty of isolated pockets of relatively ignorant people in the Planes too. I definately wouldn't so anything mind blowing like major cities at first. So when they DO first wander out into a major city it's a major 'wow, we... we're... oh god we're not the big fish' sort of moment for them. That should also limit the exposure to the truely exotic and high level magic for the group.

As for your last question about travel on the Planes - I hate to say this, but... you lost me in the sentence there. Can you rephrase that question a little? I'm not really sure where you were going with it.

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Really? Whoa, so there

Really? Whoa, so there really is a PTC. What book was this group in? I have the box set plus a couple of other ones but I can't seem to find their write up...

My group is a composed of 4 players. I haven't gotten their official concepts yet but I've been playing with them for a while and they've all given me some heads up to what they'll most likely play...

-The first player wants to play some sort of "orphan of the planes" if you will. Basically a character who's the child of someone who came from another world. He's thinking of someone with fey "read elf blood" who was the product of someone from another prime world finding his way to earth, sleeping with his mother and running off into the night
-The second voiced his desire to play a diplomat. When I talked to him, he explained that he'd like to play the kind of guy who represents his goverment in front of the representatives of the other worlds they'll visit
-The third is tempted with a soldier of some sort, like a navy seal or an S.A.S of some form
-The fourth has expressed his desire to play a priest or someone with a religious background

What I meant by planar travel and real world mythology is that the DnD magic system is quite different from real world magic and most stories of people stepping into faerie and other worlds in mythology don't follow a format that's concordant to the way planescape works...

It will make sense that, for the most part, and it will be part of the fun for their pcs to have lots of "WTF!!!" moments when the see all the crazyness the planes have to offer. But I want what they know to have some use. If the priest character pumps skill points into knowledge theology and philosophy or arcane lore then what he knows should have some use in keeping them alive. To this end real world religion and mythology is quite different from the planescape world. How do I consolidate this with the world of planescape while keeping their earthly knowledge useful?

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I believe Estevan is talked

I believe Estevan is talked about a little more in Uncaged - Faces of Sigil. 

For an idea about "real-world" vs. Planescape, there's a one-shot adventure in Well of the Worlds that deals with planar characters going to a medieval Prime that's basically based on Ireland. The local NPC lord thinks the party has come from the Faerie/Seelie court, regardless of who they are.  If you can get ahold of Well of the Worlds, you might take a look.  Despite the fact that the Prime has a wizard, it might give you some ideas on how a very Earth-like Prime reacts to planar characters.  I don't have the book handy at the moment, but the adventure I am thinking about is the one about the nic'Epona.

With regards to the "real world" mythology, bear in mind that most of the real-world pantheons actually do exist on the Great Wheel.  Olympus, the Egyptian pantheon, the Hindu pantheon, the Celtic pantheon, all of these gods can be found on the Planes. An anthropologist or historian with an emphasis in religious studies would have a field day and would manage to get around.  I would imagine that if a religion exists or has existed on Earth, you can seamlessly integrate its deities and mythical locales into the Planescape multiverse.  Who knows!  Maybe Atlantis is really on Ossa, the second layer of Arborea!

Furthermore, Baator is a pretty close analog to the Christian Hell (especially as portrayed by Dante) and Mt. Celestia is a less direct analog to the Christian Heaven (also portrayed by Dante to an extent).  The Christian parallels aren't exact, but they're certainly close enough that an Earth prime well-schooled in Christian theology would be able to make sense of it.  

Ultimately, it's a matter of putting them in a position where their "real-world" knowledge will help. So, for example, don't pit them against a Faerunian deity until they have time to adjust to being on the planes.  When they first step into the Multiverse proper, put them close to somewhere that they'll become familiar with quickly, like Olympus, Heliopolis, Tvashtri's place, Tir na Og, and so on.  Again, you can use any mythical location from any "real-world" religion and it'll work just fine. If the religious character knows about Islamic lore, you might put them at a djinn's court.  If he focuses on Chinese or Japanese mythology, I vaguely recall that the Celestial Bureaucracy (derived from the Chinese lore) is somewhere on the Outland and you can probably find or make a place where Amaterasu (Japanese) holds court -- maybe Elysium with other sun gods or something.  Bottom line is, put them some place they can make sense of first.  The "real world" pantheons are there to play with, so match them to your "real world" players.

EDIT: Wanted to add this paragraph because I just remembered you said you watched Stargate.  You know how on many planets the team encounters cultures that Daniel can recognize the origins of?  Norse-based culture, Mongol-based culture, Dark Ages-based culture, etc.?  Play off that.  When the team arrives through the portal, put them near something that is distinctly X-culture.  You can expand from there.

One thing I think would be cool personally is if you introduced a spelljamming NPC to the group.  In Spelljammer, Earth is the great mythical crystal sphere that many spelljammers search for but so far nobody's been able to find.   Spelljammer blends pretty well with Planescape, so you could have a lot of fun with a spelljamming NPC that finds out the PCs actually are from Earth.  

All told it sounds like a really fun game Smiling Sad I am missing it!

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That's all really good

That's all really good suggestions Center of All

Cool

The idea for this campaign came to me quite out of the blue actually. I was thinking about how much fun we had in a previous campaign that was completely balls out insane where we ended up charging into the Nine Hells and defeating one of the Generals of the Bloodwar who'd ursurped the Lord of the First's place and was now trying to invade the material plane...

I just paused, looked at my friend and said: "we had so much fun the only way that campaing could have ended in a more awesome way was if I could have shot that devil prince in the face with an M16 instead of an enchanted arquebus..."

Then I thought, man... I want  my friends to get the chance to shoot a devil in the face with an M16...

Anyway Innocent...

Using real world pantheons sounds like a good idea. One thing I was thinking is that maybe earths magicians have never been big into planar travel. When magic was abundant they knew how to summon outsiders and astral travel sure. But going to other planes was a lot more rare then on other prime worlds.

Speaking of Djinn, the Urban Arcana setting has Franz Draco a former efreeti prince that now operates a big multi-national conglomerate called Draco industries. According to the book in the past age of magic he ruled a kingdom like a Tyrant but everytime the magic waned, he'd fall into dormance. According to the book, his company owns several private islands, has fingers in every pie, owns armies of private soldiers, deals with Norad, has more money then God and has access to more magical ressources then anyone else on earth.

Sounds like antagonist material here...

Maybe Franz Draco has tie to the Sultan of the City of Brass...

Then again, he sounds a lot like one of the Fated by his philosophy, Duke Ironwood might be in trouble now that ol Franz is up and running. Maybe he wants to remind the fated who's really the biggest taker on the planes hum... 

One thing that's brewing in my mind is why magic fluctuates  on earth unlike other Prime material worlds. One thing I'm thinking is maybe it has to do with what powers can be found here. Maybe the Judeo-Christian God acts as some sort of Deity borderguard keeping things together by dropping the hammer on magic everyonce in a while when things start to get out of hand...

I don't know, any suggestions? 

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One thing that's brewing

One thing that's brewing in my mind is why magic fluctuates  on earth
unlike other Prime material worlds. One thing I'm thinking is maybe it
has to do with what powers can be found here. Maybe the Judeo-Christian
God acts as some sort of Deity borderguard keeping things together by
dropping the hammer on magic everyonce in a while when things start to
get out of hand...

That could be.  My thought is that it could be specific property of Earth's crystal sphere that causes magic to fluctuate while it remains quite stable on Oerth, Krynn, Faerun, etc. Of course, if you use God as a facilitator for that, maybe that's how God designed the sphere Smiling

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If you're looking for a

If you're looking for a reason why Earth has trouble getting to the rest of the Planes there was a historical fantasy game I ran once in which we addressed this issue, tying it directly to the rise of monotheism in western history. (I wanted to make sure to keep the players on Earth - aka on the plot - as they rose in levels instead of wndering out to the planes.) In that scenario, the sphere was isolated on the Astral by a ring of the bodies of dead gods - so much 'stuff' was in the way as to make travel to the Out Planes very very difficult. You may chose some varient of that blockade to block off your earth as well (though the gods in your case probably aren't dead).

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Center of All wrote: That

Center of All wrote:

That could be.  My thought is that it could be specific property of Earth's crystal sphere that causes magic to fluctuate while it remains quite stable on Oerth, Krynn, Faerun, etc. Of course, if you use God as a facilitator for that, maybe that's how God designed the sphere Smiling

That makes sense, crystal spheres can all have all sort of weird shit going there just because that's how they operate (just look at Dark Sun...).

I used God as a possible explanation just to provide an example. But I'm really not sure what I want. Maybe another explanation is because Earth's Crystal Sphere has a a magical tapestry that works like a tide with high points and low points that follow a cycle based on planar conjunctions. Thus maybe the various magical groups who know Earth exists have a secret tradition of planar migration. They leave earth when magic wanes and return when magic rises again. Whatever gets left behind either falls into hibernation or get's trapped into mundane forms. Thus at it's lowest point all portals and planar travel mediums simply shut down...

Seeing as how the planes touch on faith a lot.  I expect that sooner or later the Pcs will ask the inevitable question: "What about God?". Now questions like this are interesting and deserve some thought.

Thing is monotheism isn't an answer in planescape since there are plenty of gods and powers claiming they created the universe and I think it would be pretty cheap to say the other powers are all wrong and the Judeo-Christian faith is right. Just as I think it would be pretty cheap to have it the other way around. I think a fair arrangement would be to have them all have some portion of the truth

So I think that I should at least give him a short amount of treatment. I think having Yaweh be a Greater Power of 19-20 rank would be quite sufficient to give even the most powerful pantheons pause if they decided to start a fight with him as well as explain why he can't just wipe out other pantheons with a wave of his hand. As for where his domain should be I think we can all agree that he would most likely reside in the Seven Mounting Heavens as the plane where the Heavenly city might be. He'd most likely be a rather reclusive deity, concerned only with his prime world and would probably have access to a vast hosts of Archons and Devas to back up his decisions. Perhaps the various archangels (St-Micheal, Gabriel, Uriel, etc.) of judeo-christian theology could be somewhat like the Celestial Hebdonad as powerful unique angels tasked with delivering his will...

What layer would fit? Mertion or Jovar maybe? Any deity lucky enough to have his domain in the 5th or 6th Heaven would definetly command enormous respect in the Planes.

Any thoughts? 

As for the matter of the Antagonist for the story arc. I mentionned Franz Draco as possibly having the Lex Luthor like super-villainy for a good antagonist...

But one thing I'd like is to showcase how the sudden arrival of a new prime world on the politics of the planes causes a sort of race against the clock as every power group wants to get there first...

Any other suggestions for the antagonists in the story arc? 

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Re: How and where to place

Re: How and where to place the Abrahamic god in Planescape - it's actually a Dead Topic on the forums here. We've gone over the turf about three bazillion times, never coming to a good answer for all involved, and almost inevitable going into a flamewar. The last time we had a pair of trained theologians go over it and archived their debate as a good summary of the topic. Here and here.  Their conclusion: There's no good answer and it doesn't really matter in a game context. So do what works for you and your group.

Re: Other antagonists -  the factions definately, any of them - not all antagonists are nessecarily going to be 'bad guys'. They could just be very forceful or persuasive about getting their hooks into a new and relatively Clueless world. Or just be a little meddling. There's a lot of conflict to be found in the idea of being the 'little guy' who doesn't nessecarily *want* help from the great and powerful, even if they *are* well meaninge.

For example: the Harmonium may even go so far as to offer protection against outside forces like the Blood War, as a preliminary to perhaps offering the status of Province to this new Prime. And of course, they do have a point about the new Prime *needing* some experienced defenders and you can't argue that the Harmonium's views are all *completely* bad - there would be both support and rejection for the idea. I could see the Sons of Mercy also offering the same though with less effeciency, or the Guvners offering to assist with setting up a Planar representative to construct a world government. The Anarchists who want the world to know what it's getting into, or the Cipher who would like to spread the idea of transendance. Many of the Factions would find their Earth counterparts of *great* interest.

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Guess I should have

Guess I should have expected an answer like this. I'm a working on getting my history P.h.D and as of such, I understand that very divergent view points on the matter are perfectly valid. I also understand how difficult it can be to talk about such a topic...

Fortunetly and unfortunetly for me. I know my group. They'll have fun with whatever I choose for my campaign but unfornetly, I know they will ask the question eventually so I have to give it some thought even if it won't be the focus of the campaign...

Anyway, as I said before, I think I will run the Abrahamic God in my campaign as LG Greater Power who resides in the 6th layer of the Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia with his own domain being the Heavenly City described in Dante's heaven. Have the various angels and archangels of the abrahamic faiths be powerful unique celestials on par with the Celestial Hedomad. Any additional details would be for the pcs to discover if they wish it within the course of the campaign

Feel free to post your opinions...

Anyway, back to the real topic on hand.

The more I think about it, the more I like using Franz Draco in my campaign. An exiled Efreeti prince who dreams of ruling the world and the C.E.O of a multi-national conglomerate seems like too good an opportunity to pass up...

I think I'll build the story starting off with the pcs discovering the supernatural abruptly. They'll get recruited afterwards in my previously mentioned UN group and from there they start exploring the planes as their organization starts trying to make alliances and trade agreements with other prime world rulers and various planar groups.

I could see them afterwards getting into a lot of trouble as various planar factions race to annex earth to their goals and discovering Franz Draco's plans amidst it all.

Maybe Franz is the son or cousin of the Sultan of the City of Brass and he figures the best way to take his place as "Sultan of the World" as he so often puts it is by sinking his fingers into some much of the newly created vaccuum of planar politics created by the rise of magic that he can establish a monopoly on interactions between earth and the various other worlds.

Never one to under achieve he might also want to take a shot a Duke Ironwood. Being the rightful Sultan of the World he shouldn't tolerate that a silly human from back water Oerth would be the Factol of a faction with the philosophy of: the universe is there for those with the power to take it...

This way, it could leave open all sorts of dynamics with the pcs as it could place them in the ambivalent position of having to work with Franz Draco sometimes as he's most likely one of the few people on earth who knows enough about planar politics to navigate the byzantine politics of the Great Wheel without being overwhelmed and without him, the earth might get screwed out of it's independance (wich is ironic considering Franz's goals)

Any thoughts... 

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I'm a little unclear on

I'm a little unclear on whether your version of Planescape will be modern as well, or if your Earthlings are going to be interacting with Planescape as written.

 

Aside from that, I've always handled Earth vs Planescape with the assumption that the Prime Material has multiple layers, like the Outer Planes do, and that the 'deeper' one travels into the Prime, the less magic is available.

 

The layer upon which Earth resides is sufficiently removed from the Planes that there is virtually no magic and even portals are few and far between.

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goatunit wrote: I'm a

goatunit wrote:

I'm a little unclear on whether your version of Planescape will be modern as well, or if your Earthlings are going to be interacting with Planescape as written.

I plan on running my campaign with the pcs coming from a modern earth where magic is returning and now all the old pathways, dormant relics and such are reawakening. I'll use the d20 modern rule set and the setting is best described as a homebrew urban arcana/dark matter setting (as in I took elements of both and created my own setting with it's own history)

The planescape setting will be as written. My idea is that when magic slowly began to wan, the inhabitants of earth's crystal sphere turned to technology and the sciences. Magical beings departed, fell dormant, or were trapped in mudane forms they could assume.

Because of this, earth's technology reached it's current level. Problem is now magic is returning...

In this interpretation, the technological levels of other worlds would be on par with traditional planescape as with readily, functional magic, technology simply didn't get the kick in the ass it needed to really take off. 

Yet I'm thinking M16s VS wands of fireball... Innocent 

I like this idea of removement from the more magical center though. Might pluck some this as a reason why magic follows a cycle of high and low periods on earth...

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Gamermage wrote: I used God

Gamermage wrote:

I used God as a possible explanation just to provide an example. But I'm really not sure what I want. Maybe another explanation is because Earth's Crystal Sphere has a a magical tapestry that works like a tide with high points and low points that follow a cycle based on planar conjunctions. Thus maybe the various magical groups who know Earth exists have a secret tradition of planar migration. They leave earth when magic wanes and return when magic rises again. Whatever gets left behind either falls into hibernation or get's trapped into mundane forms. Thus at it's lowest point all portals and planar travel mediums simply shut down...

Seeing as how the planes touch on faith a lot.  I expect that sooner or later the Pcs will ask the inevitable question: "What about God?". Now questions like this are interesting and deserve some thought.

Thing is monotheism isn't an answer in planescape since there are plenty of gods and powers claiming they created the universe and I think it would be pretty cheap to say the other powers are all wrong and the Judeo-Christian faith is right. Just as I think it would be pretty cheap to have it the other way around. I think a fair arrangement would be to have them all have some portion of the truth

So I think that I should at least give him a short amount of treatment. I think having Yaweh be a Greater Power of 19-20 rank would be quite sufficient to give even the most powerful pantheons pause if they decided to start a fight with him as well as explain why he can't just wipe out other pantheons with a wave of his hand. As for where his domain should be I think we can all agree that he would most likely reside in the Seven Mounting Heavens as the plane where the Heavenly city might be. He'd most likely be a rather reclusive deity, concerned only with his prime world and would probably have access to a vast hosts of Archons and Devas to back up his decisions. Perhaps the various archangels (St-Micheal, Gabriel, Uriel, etc.) of judeo-christian theology could be somewhat like the Celestial Hebdonad as powerful unique angels tasked with delivering his will...

 

I would actually use Yahweh as the overgod of the Earth's crystal sphere, like Ao in the Forgotten Realms, rather than a Power of the outer planes. That accomplishes several things:

  1. It avoids the question about alignment. Different real world faiths could be considered to have different alignments, so this avoids even implying who is right.
  2. It plays nicely in with your idea that Earth's crystal sphere has a fluctuating magic because of Yahweh.
  3. It explains why the real-world faiths have no spellcasting priests.
  4. It avoids any (stupid) PC getting the idea to waste Yahweh.

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Could be, it could also

Could be, it could also explain why in the bible, when priest of other faiths invoke their Gods they too have a tendency to find themselves finding their Gods falling silent. Maybe that could be a metaphor for an Overpower.

Maybe these priests don't receive their powers because the gods of these faiths have an agreement with Yaweh where he rarely intervenes directly but when priests of other faiths piss him off they piss off their Gods as well in the "When the Overpower talks, you will listen or we will take away those nifty spells you get..."

Still, I don't know, I'm totally for my pcs being priests of Yaweh/Allah/God and getting their spells for it (such as the acolyte advanced class in the d20 modern core book or the mystic advanced class in the Urban Arcana campaign book).

So Yaweh being an Overpower causes some problems since overpowers don't grant priest spells. I'll have to think this through... 

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I'm sure there are no rules

I'm sure there are no rules whatsoever that restrict an overpower from granting spells.  If Yahweh (or even Ao) wants, I'm sure his priests can have spells.

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Center of All wrote:I'm

Center of All wrote:
I'm sure there are no rules whatsoever that restrict an overpower from granting spells.  If Yahweh (or even Ao) wants, I'm sure his priests can have spells.

Well, like I've said before, I'm not the most versed in Planescape lore. But I seem to remember that the only officially listed overpower is Ao and he has this whole priesthood who don't receive spells, why is that?

Similarly it brings up the question of priests themselves why hasn't anyone received priest spells for their raw faith yet? I mean priest don't even have to worship gods to receive spells, they can follow philosophies, be adherents of a more open outlook. Heck even the Athar can have priests...

So why don't those followers of Ao receive spells?

Anyway, my big problem with Yaweh being an overpower in my setting isn't so much about the granting of spells as the issue that it implies he is greater then other gods from other pantheons found on earth. I'm not opposed to him being a very powerful god (I mean if the whole 12 plagues of Egypt business and the Flood is any indicator, he wouldn't be a weak power) But I'd like my pcs to have their outlook shattered a little bit when they step into the planes. Knowing that there are other forces that are equal to Yaweh would be a great way. And if the priest character keeps his faith afterward it makes it all the more interesting (and knowing the pc who will be playing a religious character most likely, he'll find it a lot more rewarding).

Anyway... anybody ever write upt stats for duke Ironwood in DnD 3.5? I'd like to have a gauge so I can adjust him for my game so if Franz gets into a fight with him it's interesting...

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Well, like I've said

Well, like I've said before, I'm not the most versed in Planescape lore. But I seem to remember that the only officially listed overpower is Ao and he has this whole priesthood who don't receive spells, why is that?

Similarly it brings up the question of priests themselves why hasn't anyone received priest spells for their raw faith yet? I mean priest don't even have to worship gods to receive spells, they can follow philosophies, be adherents of a more open outlook. Heck even the Athar can have priests...

So why don't those followers of Ao receive spells?

Followers of Ao don't receive spells mainly because Ao doesn't want to give them.  Ao's presence is not supposed to be known by mortals on Toril.  Before the Time of Troubles, he wasn't known.  He doesn't want worshipers and I suspect that denying them spells is a way of discouraging anyone that knows about him from actually giving him worship.

Overpowers are not a subject often addressed, but it's widely known they are to gods what gods are to us.  So if an overpower does want to grant spells, that's perfectly within its rights and abilities.

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Center of All

Center of All wrote:


Followers of Ao don't receive spells mainly because Ao doesn't want to give them.  Ao's presence is not supposed to be known by mortals on Toril.  Before the Time of Troubles, he wasn't known.  He doesn't want worshipers and I suspect that denying them spells is a way of discouraging anyone that knows about him from actually giving him worship.

Overpowers are not a subject often addressed, but it's widely known they are to gods what gods are to us.  So if an overpower does want to grant spells, that's perfectly within its rights and abilities.

Wich is funny when you think about it since it might make some of those followers try even more to get his attention and "prove themselves" to Ao so to speak. I'm surprised there haven't any nutbags sor far in that cult trying weird stuff like mass suicides and the liket to get his attention...

Any like I said previously, I wouldn't be worried about Acolytes and Mystics getting their spells from Yaweh wether he's an overpower or not. If one of my pcs wants to play a muslim acolyte of a evangelical mystic, that would be fine by me...

This brings to my mind 2 questions I'd like opinions and answers

1-Do all prime material worlds have an Overpower?

2-Setting aside the questions of alignement, portfolio and such. Do you posters really perceive him more like an overpower then a Greater Power (like Zeus, Odin, Re)? I mean mythologically speaking, Zeus and the other creator figures all strike me as having demonstrated about equal feats of power. Wouldn't it make more sense for him to be a greater power in the 19-20 rank?

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1-Do all prime material

1-Do all prime material worlds have an Overpower?

As far as I'm aware, the only overpower documented IC or OOC in D&D context is Ao on Toril.  Interestingly, if you read the Avatar Trilogy, you find out at the very, very end that Ao himself answers to some kind of higher being.  Dark Sun doesn't have actual gods, just sorcerer-kings and elements; Krynn I'm not that familiar with but I believe it has gods.

2-Setting aside the questions of alignement, portfolio and such. Do you
posters really perceive him more like an overpower then a Greater Power
(like Zeus, Odin, Re)? I mean mythologically speaking, Zeus and the
other creator figures all strike me as having demonstrated about equal
feats of power. Wouldn't it make more sense for him to be a greater
power in the 19-20 rank?

I'd say this is really a matter of what an individual gamer or gamer group wants to do with his campaign.  Do what works best for you.  Certainly, I think a fair chunk of why Yahweh is not included in D&D books is because Judeo-Christian beliefs seem to reflexively inspire less fantasy than the ancient pantheons of the old world.  For my own part, when I think "real world" fantasy, monsters, and magic, I think of the Greek and Egyptian pantheons before I think of Judeo-Christian concepts.  So it all comes down to what you think works best for you. 

One thing you could do is tie it into the concepts of belief.  Certainly more people on Earth today believe in the existence of God in some form (God, Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah, some sort of solitary creator-being) than in Zeus, Odin, and Ra.  So the latter three may have "given up" on the world and now choose to draw their worship from the Multiverse itself than one single prime world.   A power in the Multiverse needs the belief of his worshipers, but an overpower does not.  So when belief in the Greco-Roman pantheon and so on was replaced by Christianity, maybe the old gods said, "Well forget this place, let's go where there are more people" and took off for Arborea.

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Well, as I've said before,

Well, as I've said before, my campaign won't focus on the gods.It's going to be a campaign about planar exploration, cross planar politics and the sudden reapearance of Earth on the planar scene after hundreds of years of absence. I'm thinking a format ala Stargate with a story arc for the entire campaign spiced up with adventures that go along as side-quests. Really have ther pcs look in awe at the great wheel.

I think for my purposes I'll make him a Greater Power. And have the waning forces of magic contribute to the rise of monotheism by paradox. Since magic started to disappear, more and more worshippers of the old gods started to loose faith in their gods and this made it easier for the idea of monotheism to spread since monotheism is easier to explain without obvious supernatural occurences. Most of the old gods took this opportunity to spread to other planes and they building up their powerbase from there. They kept watch however, waiting for the wheel to turn...

Only now magic has returned and the old gods know this, they join the gold rush created by earth's reemergence with the other planar factions. And all that's stands in the way are the pcs and their allies trying to prevent earth from getting swept up in the maelstrom...

Moving along. One thing I was thinking was that with magic returning, the old artefacts are powering up again. Mystic sites are starting to work again. Start the pcs off from there. they start on earth working with the UN agency and after a few adventures finally step off into the planes.

I'm trying to think a bout 2 places that could have dormant portals so I could have one in the hands of the Pc's patrons and one in the hands of Draco industries. For the pcs I think I'll have the Un agency hake their hands on a portal somewhere in Europe and Franz Draco control a portal somewhere in the middle-east.

Any places that strike you as possible locations where a planar portals could be? I'd like to avoid using stonehenge since it's too obvious. but I'm open to suggestions...

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There are actually two

There are actually two known overpowers - Ao of Toril (and Abeir) and the Highgod of Krynn.

Oerth apparently does not have an overpower, although this isn't completely certain. However, the gods of Oerth have a pact of non-intervention with one another that the greater gods can lift in certain circumstances, should they all agree to do so. By this means, St. Cuthbert was able to intervene directly to help capture the demigod Iuz in exchange for the greater gods of Evil being allowed to similarly ignore the pact at a later date. This doesn't sound like the kind of system that a world with an overpower would have.

 

 

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Hey Rip Van Wormer  Long

Hey Rip Van Wormer Cool Long time, I remember you from the old 2nd ed forum at wizards before 4th edition hit. Cool to see you're still around...

 Alignement and such aside. I think keeping Yaweh in the Greater Power range will serve my purposes just fine. A greater god with a divine rank of 19-20 with great influence over a prime world (given the number of people on earth who are christians/jewish/muslims of some denomination) would be pretty secure amidst planar politics. Being alone in his pantheon would also grant him great sway over his prime world, possibly enough that he wouldn't need to be an overpower to accomplish great feats of divinity. He might have some sway over the tides of magic as part of his portfolio...

Since d20 modern does not have planar travel and d20 modern mages top out at level 5 spells. I figure I'll keep planar magic as lost lore pcs can rediscover if they start researching magic and negociating with spell casters from other worlds. If a pc decides to take up magic or faith (and take one of the d20 modern spellcaster advanced classes). I'd open up higher planar magic as incantations that require rituals to complete to reflect how Earths tapestry isn't attuned to planar magic like other worlds.

I was also thinking about locations that might contain dormant portals and here are a few places I can think:

-Stonehenge to heroic domains of Ysgard

-Ayers Rock: the Astral Plane

-Machu Pichu: portals might be found to different planes devided by the gods each building were dedicated to...

Any other ideas... 

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Some of the places in Greece

Some of the places in Greece and/or Italy that connect to the underworld and the realms of th gods.

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Calmar wrote:Some of the

Calmar wrote:
Some of the places in Greece and/or Italy that connect to the underworld and the realms of th gods.

Indeed, some of the places could connect to Hades and Mount Olympus. I could see one of these portals being found in an Island on the mediteranean and Mount Olympus could have a portal  in one of the old temples... 

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Significant places on Earth

Significant places on Earth that are used to connect to planar sites in fiction and other gaming settings I have seen to include the following:

Stonehenge, giving access to the Ethereal for one who has obtained an ability to go ethereal at all -- i.e., Earth's magic-dull nature prevents ethereality from usually functioning, but at Stonehenge it does.  To further restrict it, have this function only at astrologically significant moments: regrettably, these days such times are often crowded with neopagan tourists, making subtle activity difficult.

Caves below the White Mountains in Crete, giving access to the Plane of Earth, simply by walking, for those who know which cave to spelunk in and the route through the deep caverns.  It's possible that we possess a portal to Air somewhere in the high atmosphere, which could be tracked with a combination of magic and high technology.  Even if currently closed, once found we might be able to discern how to open it.

Theoretically, any shadow boundary could give access to the Plane of Shadow, for someone who knew the right spells or had the right powers; this is how modern Earth arrives in certain D&D fiction that I can't recall off the top of my head.

Jesus ascended to Heaven from the Mount of Olives, which if this myth holds any power in your setting may retain the ability to function as a portal to Mt. Celestia under particularly favorable circumstances (perhaps the key is being someone who was clinically dead for some time).  Mohammed ascended from the Temple Mount, which is also said to be the physical root of the Otz Chaim, the Kabbalistic Tree of Life (which, in a Planescape game, may be Yggdrasil or another planar pathway entirely).

An open sinkhole outside Darvaz, Uzbekistan is lined with continually-burning walls fueld by seeping natural gas.  The fire is quite vivid at night and the sinkhole is many yards across.  It is called the "doorway to Hell" by the locals.  If one enters sufficiently protected from fire and suffocation, it might lead to the Elemental Plane of Fire or Magma, or to the Nine Hells or Gehenna.

The Greek underworld was said to be accessible through a certain cave on the peninsula of Taenarum. This might let out somewhere in the Gray Waste.

The Bermuda Triangle could lead almost anywhere, although this portal might be wild and unpredictable.  Similarly, almost any large hill in England might, if you could contact the fae properly, offer access to the Court of Stars in its travels around the chaotic planes.

The Infinite Staircase, theoretically, touches down somewhere on Earth.  Powerful divination or clues might tell PCs where.

Astral projection might be the first option for would-be planar travelers from Earth, requiring us to exit as "cord babies" and make contact with friendly planars who would be willing to use their own resources from outside Earth to cast gate, opening a way for us to leave.

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Cord babies could also exit

Cord babies could also exit through color pools would also get the same effect without using the gate. Smiling

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Jem, these are all awesome

Jem, these are all awesome suggestions...Cool

I'm writting those down now. I'm getting all sorts of story hooks from that, I'm going to write them down too before I forget.

I mentionend I'm working on transforming some of the planar travel spells into incantations for my setting to reflect how planar travel is much harder on earth even with magic returning. I'll try and post a sample later for critique... 

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From Avernus to Avernus. Or

From Avernus to Avernus. Or something like that. Smiling

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Jem's suggestions are indeed

Jem's suggestions are indeed awesome, but the pedant in me wants to note that it's the Seelie Court that travels the chaotic planes. The Court of Stars has nothing to do with the fey (at least, not in 2nd-3rd edition), and stays put in Arborea.

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Gamermage wrote:Any places

'Gamermage' wrote:
Any places that strike you as possible locations where a planar portals could be? I'd like to avoid using stonehenge since it's too obvious. but I'm open to suggestions...

In the Americas:  Mount Shasta (California), Crater Lake (Oregon), Mount Superstition (Arizona).

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Gamermage wrote: Any places

Gamermage wrote:

Any places that strike you as possible locations where a planar portals could be? I'd like to avoid using stonehenge since it's too obvious. but I'm open to suggestions...

I think there is a portal to Sigil, maybe more than one, in New York City (it would explain a lot)

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Urraca Mesa would make an

Urraca Mesa would make an excellent link to the Abyss.

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Ah, right -- the Seelie

Ah, right -- the Seelie Court of the fey, not the Court of Stars (the eladrin).

Anyway, more places where access to other worlds was supposed to be possible:

The architecture of a kiva, an underground room used in religious activities for the Pueblo Indians of the American Southwest, included a well or even smaller hole drilled through the center for a short distance, and this was the point of entrance for the spirits.  A sufficiently small user might be able to use the portal to reach the domains of the pantheon, usually said to be on the Beastlands or Elysium.  (The key might be a kachina doll, into which the user must be bound temporarily!)

In the Kojiki (a book sacred to Shinto), the personage Ni-nigi is said to have descended from Heaven to the peak of Mt. Kuzhifuru in Takasu in Chikushi, on a southern island of Japan near Korea.  A portal on this peak would lead, presumably, to the domains of the Japanese pantheon.

Abydos, in Egypt, was the anchor of a grand funerary complex which featured numerous processional ways, some for the use of spirits.  The Heliopolitans have a significant Domain on Arcadia, which might be accessible from here.

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Azure wrote:I think there

Azure wrote:
I think there is a portal to Sigil, maybe more than one, in New York City (it would explain a lot)

Is that where Eco-Mono's portal is? The one in the mall?

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keep them coming guys I

keep them coming guys I have some work this week but I should have my sample incantation soon...

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Icelanders believed the

Icelanders believed the volcano Hekla was a doorway to Hell, probably good for a portal to the Nine Hells.  Perhaps it is accessible only during active phases.


The lake Llyn y Fan Fach in Wales is said to be a gateway to the underworld associated with fairies, and thus could lead to Pandemonium, the Abyss, or Limbo.



The Waipio Valley on Hawaii's Big Island is supposed to contain a cave where you can be grabbed and dragged down to the underworld by little people -- goblin kidnappers, perhaps, shanghai'ing troops for Acheron, or slavers from the Elemental Plane of Earth.



The Loltun Caves in Mexico were considered a gateway to the underworld by the Mayans.  I forget where the Mayan pantheon has its Domains in Planescape. 

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As journeys to the

As journeys to the otherworld in Irish/Gaelic myths often started simply by sailing into the west and finding a funny island, how about Rockall? A portal would give the claim disputes some meaning.

The Nazca Lines could point to different planes, usable by taking a certain path, or maybe just by going along them at 88 mph.

(Jem, I really like the idea of a link between Semitic and Norse. That'll be bouncing around my head for a few days. Also, bonus points for kachinas in fantasy.)

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Allright People here's my

Allright People here's my first sample incantation I will allow my players to discover and possibly use for planar travel from earth to the rest of the great wheel.

Climbing the Tree of Life

Conjuration (Planar Travel)

 

skill check: Knowledge (arcane lore) DC 35, 7 successes; Failure: three consecutive failed checks; Components: mental, focus, verbal, material, Backlash; Casting time: 5 hours (minimum); Range: 50 ft; Target: Up to 5 travelers; Duration: instantaneous; saving throw: will negates (DC 16+ caster's wisdom modifier); spell resistance: Yes

This powerful ritual is one of the greatest secrets by Kabbalist scholar. By concentrating on the truths that descend from the tree of life and attuning his mind to the emanations of the Sephiroth. The Kabbalist may takes hold of these energies and physically transports himself and others similarly attuned to one of the supernatural realms on the many levels of the tree of life

This incantion allows the caster to open the planar barrier separating Earth from the rest of the Great Wheel. The caster may select the plane he wishes to travel to and if successfull, he and the other travelers will appear on the selected plane.

Material Components: A fully prepared Kabbalistic circle, a cipher with the name of the plane the caster wishes to travel to serve as foci. 

Options: Characters attempting to travel to a plane with an allegeance possessed by the caster reduce the DC to successfully cast the incantation by 2. Characters capable of casting divine spells and wishing to travel to the plane of their divine patron may further reduce the DC by 2

If this ritual is performed on a mystic site the caster gains a bonus to his check equal to the strenght of the site (+1 for a faint mystic site, +2 for a moderate mystic site, +3 for a strong mystic site)

Casters casting this ritual on a dedicated site (See Urban Arcana page 106) with an allegeance shared by the plane the caster desires to travel received a +5 bonus to all skill checks to succeed. Casters casting this ritual on a dedicated site with an allegeance opposed to the plane the caster desires to travel reveive a -5 on all skill checks to succeed

Backlash: The caster and all other travelers using the ritual are fatigued and receive 1 negative level.

Failure: The caster and all other travelers must make a will save (DC 16+ the difference between the required check to succeed and the caster's roll) or take 2d4 wisdom damage and receive 2 negative levels as their minds are wracked with the improperly attuned planar energies

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astralsahu wrote: As

astralsahu wrote:

As journeys to the otherworld in Irish/Gaelic myths often started simply by sailing into the west and finding a funny island, how about Rockall? A portal would give the claim disputes some meaning.

Niamh could fall in love with one of the PCs and take them all to Tir Na Og, across the ocean on horseback. Could be fun, but not in action packed way. It would consist primarily of role-playing.

EDIT:

Gamermage wrote:

This incantion allows the caster to open the planar barrier separating Earth from the rest of the Great Wheel. The caster may select the plane he wishes to travel to and if successfull, he and the other travelers will appear on the selected plane.

Why not make it Yggdrasil?

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Wexquif wrote: Why not

Wexquif wrote:

Why not make it Yggdrasil?

Because:

It's a ritual used by adepts of the Kabbalah, a form of Jewish Mysticism. Hygdrasil is clearly part of Norse Mythology. Ygdrassil is part of the Great Wheel just like the infinite Staircase and acts as one of the roads that connect to all planes, like the infinite Staircase. While arguably, the Tree of Life the ritualists climbs could be Hyggdrasil, adepts of the ritual wouldn't know this in most cases...

It's something pcs could discover further along the adventure, sure, but the ritual itself is another matter entirely.

Besides, the idea is to give pcs a way they can travel to other planes of their choice. Thus I think it's appropriate to allow them to choose the plane they want to travel to... 

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Interesting, and I think

Interesting, and I think the mechanics are pretty well designed for the difficulty level, with reasonable site modifiers.

Now, one feature of the Otz Chaim is that it imposes a numerical order on the sephiroth, with Malkuth, the material world, at the bottom.  Depending on how much recordkeeping you want, you might be able to hint at a whole cosmology by assigning progressively harder difficulties to various planes based on their supposed positioning.  For example, it might be somewhat easier to travel to a point in the Elemental Chaos, or Arvandor, than to, say, Mt. Celestia, which would theoretically be purer and thus higher up the Tree.  Conveniently, this lets any planar traveler who doesn't know the way to the realm of their god to claim that Domain is in Kether, inaccessible to mortals.

In this order, though, planes affiliated with evil might be not sephiroth, but qlippoth.  I might suggest that attempting to open oneself to the energies of such planes would have a different backlash and failure, possibly including summoning angry inhabitants (or friendly inhabitants) or, worse, making the caster and would-be travelers vulnerable to influence by the malign spirits therein.  It might even have a different ritual entirely, though I think perhaps not.

(This order, by the way, is eminently suitable for the linear arrangement of planes in Pathfinder, and also makes the Tree of Life a nice lawful counterpart to Yggdrasil in the traditional Planescape setting, which I'm writing up myself at present!)

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Right Jem, considering that

Right Jem, considering that part of the idea of the Sephiroth and the tree of life is spiritual enlightenment. It makes sense that Mount Celestial could be representative of Kether.

I'm using traditional Planescape Cosmology for my campaign with (as you've all been know by now) d20 modern/Urban arcana+ DnD 3.5 rules (in other I update d20 modern to 3.5 rules but keep the classes, spells and such)

Jewish Mythology has a Sheol as a the place where souls go after death, a gray plane that symbolizes finality and in my respects ressembles the Grey wastes of Hades. So I could easily see how Kabbalists could with research and exploration (and some good old fashioned plane-hoppingWink) piece together at least a partial model of the Great wheel through it... 

 I like your idea however that different aligned planes could require more difficult checks and that certain planes could only be accessible with more esoteric rituals.

As to what you're working on with the tree of life keep me posted on it I'd definetly like to take a look at what you are writting... 

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Wanted to drop a post in

Wanted to drop a post in this thread mentioning that I've uploaded a Great Wheel and a Pathfinder version of the Tree of Life as planar pathways in this forum.

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