Native Outsider?

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AkumaDaimyo's picture
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Native Outsider?

Is there even such a thing in Planescape? So can a tiefling or Assimar be banished or something like that? I know there was some special stuf you can to do Outsiders.

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Native Outsider?

'AkumaDaimyo' wrote:
Is there even such a thing in Planescape? So can a tiefling or Assimar be banished or something like that? I know there was some special stuf you can to do Outsiders.

The Banishment spell now affects "extraplanar" creatures, which is a subtype applied to any creature not currently on its native plane. So native Outsiders would be affected when they not on their home plane.

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Native Outsider?

But wouldnt all those tieflings and assimars on Sigil not be Native? In fact pretty much ANY planetouched in Planescape is NOT native. Tieflings in the planescape setting for example are not refered to as native outsider. So you can just banish away like a madman. Thats lame. What happens when you get banished anyway? Isnt there also something bad that hapepns when planetouched die? Isn't it like a total pain to rez them?

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Native Outsider?

Planetouched, like tiefers, are still considered humanoids. Therefore, they can be affected by all the standard ressurrection spells. Depending on which plane they were born on, they will be subject to banishment and circle against alignment spells on all other planes besides their birth plane, including the Prime (unless they were born there).

Sigil, however, is a different story. Thanks to the eternal efforts of The Lady, all teleportation (that includes banishment) effects work only inside Sigil, but do not go from outside in or from inside out. So you can't banish anybody from Sigil, even a dretch, and you can't teleport in. The only way to get in or out of Sigil is through portals, and that's only if you're not a deity.

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'AkumaDaimyo' wrote:
But wouldnt all those tieflings and assimars on Sigil not be Native? In fact pretty much ANY planetouched in Planescape is NOT native.

Actually after a few generations of living on another plane anything can become a native of that plane. That's how you get prime races that migrate to various inner/outer/transitive planes, after time the decendants of that group eventually become natives of that plane. I would suppose the amount of time needed depends on the age range and bithrate of the race.

EDIT: It may even be that the first generation born on that new plane are considered natives. If so, a planetouched creature would be native to whatever plane it was born on.

Excellent point about Sigil's no teleportation rules Iavas, I didn't even make the connection.

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Native Outsider?

'Iavas' wrote:
. . . Thanks to the eternal efforts of The Lady, all teleportation (that includes banishment) effects work only inside Sigil, but do not go from outside in or from inside out. . .

So here's a question I've wondered from time to time. If someone banishes a creature in Sigil that is extraplanar there, what does happen? Does it fizzle, or do they get bumped somewhere else in Sigil, or something else?

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Native Outsider?

Hmm... I'm not sure, Hymneth. My jink's on one of the first two. My guts tell me it should fizzle, but I can't help thinking that I remember reading somewhere that anybody banished in the Cage gets a free "get out of battle free" card. Don't hold me to that, though. References are a must, and I suck at finding them.

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Native Outsider?

Creatures are native outsiders if the Monster Manual says they are. Tieflings, half-fiends, half-celestials, and aasimar are native outsiders no matter what plane they were born on.

If an outsider has the "native" subtype, it means they can be raised or resurrected and have to eat and drink the same as a humanoid does due to their mortal blood. This isn't something that changes because you were born somewhere else.

The native subtype doesn't affect banishment spells or the like. That's what the extraplanar subtype is for. Whether or not you have the extraplanar subtype depends on where you currently are in the multiverse and where you're from. It changes, while the native subtype does not.

You can banish any character that's currently extraplanar (not just outsiders!), as long as they're in a place that permits that kind of spell to work. In Sigil, you can only get in or out through a portal, so banishment doesn't work there.

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Native Outsider?

But in Planescape it lists Tieflings and Assimars as something other than Native Outsiders. The current MM does NOT take Planescape into thought at all.

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Native Outsider?

You noticed that, huh? WotC and Planescape are not good bedfellows, although they slowly seem to be drifting together. WotC has begun to mention planes more often, especially with books like Fiendish Codex, and adding plane-of-origin information in the 3.5 update. However, a lot of their information is about as exact as a clueless blood studying the planes through ancient books. The names are there, but the meaning is skewed.

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Native Outsider?

'AkumaDaimyo' wrote:
But in Planescape it lists Tieflings and Assimars as something other than Native Outsiders. The current MM does NOT take Planescape into thought at all.

Chapter two of the Planescape campaign setting rules you can download from this website makes them humanoids, but I personally think that was a mistake. Not because it's a bad call in itself - it's not - but because I don't think it's necessary to deviate from the official rules in this case, as the "native" subtype does an adequate job in resolving the rules holes that the assignation creates. For that reason, I think creating custom Planescape-specific rules is more trouble than it's worth.

Published Planescape, being edition 2.0, predated creature types and subtypes, and thus didn't say one way or the other.

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Native Outsider?

'Hymneth' wrote:
If someone banishes a creature in Sigil that is extraplanar there, what does happen?

Here's a hint: Banishment is just like Plane Shift, but offensive.

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How does everyone feel about (native) outsiders being immune to effects that target humanoids? I feel like having half your party be flat-out immune to hold person, charm person, etcetera, and the other half be affected as expected adds a degree of metagame thought to the experience. And I don't like that.

Secondly, planetouched being (native) outsiders makes for screwy shapechanging effects. It means that a tiefling could never use alter self to hide his goat legs and look like a human to allay suspicion. That's a humanoid, a different creature type. He could, however, use that spell to look like a balor, since that's a Large-size outsider. An air genasi could alter self to look like a canoloth before he could change shape to look like an elf.

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Native Outsider?

There are effects that ELVES are immune to though so why not disallow them as well?

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'AkumaDaimyo' wrote:
There are effects that ELVES are immune to though so why not disallow them as well?

Exactly! An elf's immunity to two spells is just like a tiefling's immunity to everything affecting the humanoid type.

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It's still a flat out immunity. And it's not TWO SPELLS. It's more like TWO types of effects, which encompasses a lot more than just spells.

And MAYBE that's why Tieflings are a ECL +1? *rolls eyes*

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Native Outsider?

'Rhys' wrote:
How does everyone feel about (native) outsiders being immune to effects that target humanoids? I feel like having half your party be flat-out immune to hold person, charm person, etcetera, and the other half be affected as expected adds a degree of metagame thought to the experience. And I don't like that.

Secondly, planetouched being (native) outsiders makes for screwy shapechanging effects. It means that a tiefling could never use alter self to hide his goat legs and look like a human to allay suspicion. That's a humanoid, a different creature type. He could, however, use that spell to look like a balor, since that's a Large-size outsider. An air genasi could alter self to look like a canoloth before he could change shape to look like an elf.

I'll point out that a teifling can hide her goat legs by using Alter Self to turn herself into an aasimar (or, for that matter, a teifer who has only minor changes from human).

Also, I don't see what is wrong with preventing Charm Person effects from affecting teiflings. They might look human, but their outsider ancestry has fundamentally altered them.

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Native Outsider?

An elf can be targeted by a sleep spell, it will just do nothing. That's because elves are a special race who have a reason to be immune to sleep effects. Just like a dwarf is special and can see in the dark. Just like it makes sense that genasi resist their elements better.

The elf rebuttal is off the mark, because I argued neither that races shouldn't get abilities, nor did I argue for disallowing races that had bad mechanics. What I said is that the traits for aasimar and tieflings are based on metagame data. That is to say, the only reason that we encounter these problems is because they were assigned a creature type which was not meant for mortal, nearly-human PC races.

"AkumaDaimyo" wrote:
It's still a flat out immunity. And it's not TWO SPELLS. It's more like TWO types of effects, which encompasses a lot more than just spells.

And MAYBE that's why Tieflings are a ECL +1? *rolls eyes*

Sleep effects are one type of effect. But eye rolling aside, it's the metagaminess of the (native) outsider that bugs me, not the balance of the outsider type in the first place.

Making aasimar and tieflings outsiders and not humanoids adds a whole lot of problems, and really doesn't add much of anything to help the game.
Because they're outsiders, they automatically get darkvision (along with nearly every other planar race, but that's another rant). They get their own subtype invented to cover up the more egregious over-assuming traits (no sleep, no eating, no souls). They even get automatic proficiency in martial weapons! Yes, that's right. Even (native) outsiders are proficient. It's so enormously ridiculous that everyone ignores the rule without even realizing it.

It's just these strange little head-scratching moments around the table where the game stops and everyone has to say, "What? Lemme see that" that really break down the game. A tiefling is only distantly related to an outsider. The rest of his family is probably human. He could easily be a sudden emergence of fiendish blood in the family, born to human parents.

And let me point out that genasi originally appeared in Monsters of Faerun as outsiders. They appear in the PSCS as humanoids. It's easy and painless to make the change. Even obvious and intuitive, at least to me. I definitely run my campaign with all planetouched this way.

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Native Outsider?

I'm keeping them the way they are, as I said they have the ECL +1 for a reason. As far as the eating, sleeping and drinking thing, someone pointed out that native outsiders do indeed have to sleep, eat, and drink. I'm pretty sure they have souls too. It's just outsiders who don't have to do that. So I'm guessing that maybe some of the other things Outsiders get don't necessarily apply to Native Outsiders. I know the Martial and Simple Weapon Proficiencies apply, at least according to "The Sage" on WoTC. However how come in all the 3.0 and 3.5 supplements they seem to forget this and have tiefling rogues always using rogue weapons when they could use a much more damaging weapon? (If they have weapon finese or something like that then I can see why they would use rogue weapons though.)

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'AkumaDaimyo' wrote:
As far as the eating, sleeping and drinking thing, someone pointed out that native outsiders do indeed have to sleep, eat, and drink. I'm pretty sure they have souls too. It's just outsiders who don't have to do that. So I'm guessing that maybe some of the other things Outsiders get don't necessarily apply to Native Outsiders.

So... what we're doing is taking the Outsider type, and then applying to it a subtype that strips away most of what that subtype means, reducing it pretty closely to a humanoid. Actually, thematically, a native outsider is a humanoid.

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Native Outsider?

Not what "we" are doing, more of what WoTC did.

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Native Outsider?

Honestly, Planetouched are a remnant of an older version of D&D that have never really been properly adjusted to fit rules changes and shifts in what the game can and can't do. If they were made today (and WotC was even vaguely competent), I think Planetouched would be organized into templates. Half-fiend is a template, Fiendish is a template, Fiendish bloodlines are a weird (and sucky) variant on templates, and all these can be taken by practically any race, so why are Tieflings automatically just humans with horns (and pointy teeth, hooves, menacing auras, etc)? What if you want to play a dwarf who's a quarter Demonic?

That said, they shouldn't be Outsiders. I know it's their most powerful abillity, and it's pretty much the only reason they qualify for the +1 (Lesser Tieflings and Aasimar are just the originals without the Outsider type and the level adjustment, and most people agree that they're at most slightly more powerful than the average Dwarf), but really they should be humanoids. If you think they should still be stuck with the LA (which in the case of Zenythri and Chaonds isn't so bad), give them a humanoid hit die instead, because Level Adjustment is one of those things in the game that breaks down more often than it works.

Really, Aasimar and Tieflings suck even with the Outsider type, so taking it off and getting rid of their crippling level adjustment at the same time is just good sense. Oh, and a good variant rule is that creatures don't gain abillities (proficiencies in particular) granted by creature type unless they have at least one racial hit die. This is a good way to keep random crap out of the hands of the players while still giving it to most monsters.

By the way, my friend and I are making a full list of templated Planetouched that are balance and actually worth playing for a campaign I'm going to be starting soon (quite probably on these very boards if anyone's interested), and I'll post the templates when they're done.

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I wouldn't call a mere ECL +1 Crippling in the slightest. +2 or +3 and above? Now that's crippling. I still wouldn't say they suck ethier considering as a outsider some spells and affects don't work on you AND you get to use all simple and martial weapons. I guess it perhaps doesn't make sense to those who know the rules better than I but I perfer to keep them how they are. Trying to create a Tiefling NPC for Eberron at the moment.

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The problem with Level Adjustement is you lose a full hit die, your skills, saves, and attack bonus are permanently behind, and any class abillity based on levels (all spellcasting for instance) is permanently behind with no way to get it back. People think that after a few levels that won't matter anymore, but it does. At first and second level it sucks because you can't hold up in combat that way people without level adjustments can, but at least you have nifty abillities.

The thing is though, after about level five or six you may no longer be totally outgunned, but your abillites aren't worth nearly as much. Spell-like abillities like Darkness just really don't get used that often, and really aren't great in the first place (Again, Zenythri and Chaonds don't count, because they are actually worth their LA's). A +2 stat bonus doesn't make a huge difference once you can afford decent magic items, and things like resistances and immunities still come up, but more and more your enemies will have a way around them. On the other hand, you're still behind in levels. Everyone around you will be a little bit better at what they do than you are. This can be totally crippling for casters, but even for casters it means that they'll usually lose in a mirror match with a human of the same ECL/CR and the same equipment, and it gets worse as you level So yeah, I'd say it is a little bit crippling.

Getting back to your original point, this isn't a problem at all for an NPC. NPC's are generally a bit weaker than PC's of the same level anyway (they are supposed to be) if you want your NPC to be more of a challenge, all you have to do is give it better equipment or a higher level. Don't sweat it.

Regarding things like banishment and stuff, just remember that you can't be banished or teleported from Sigil (although the jury is still out on whether or not extra-demensional spaces should work), but anyone can be banished from a plane they aren't native to, regardless of whether they are humanoids, Ousiders, or Outsider (native)'s. Also, regarding the proficiencies, I don't think anyone intended to give them those on purpose, so it might be best to just pretend they aren't there.

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From Unearthed Arcana

Reducing Level Adjustments
When a character with a level adjustment advances in experience, the level adjustment he started with becomes more and more of a burden. Eventually, the benefits of the creature type may come to be eclipsed by those of his class features, and the player may regret his choice of race. Under this variant system, the character can pay an XP cost at certain intervals to decrease the burden of his level adjustment.

Table: Reducing Level Adjustments Starting
Level
Adjustment Number of Class Levels Necessary
for Level Adjustment Reduction
(Not Including Racial Hit Dice)
1 3
2 6,9
3 9, 15, 18
4 12
5 15
6 18

Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1.

For instance, a gnoll's level adjustment is +1. When a gnoll character gains his third class level (remember, the gnoll's 2 starting Hit Dice don't count), he can pay an XP cost to reduce his level adjustment to +0.

If the level adjustment is greater than +1, this process repeats until the creature's level adjustment reaches +0. Each time, use the creature's current level adjustment to determine the point at which the level adjustment can go down by 1. For example, a drow (level adjustment +2) may drop to level adjustment +1 after gaining her sixth class level, and then to +0 after gaining an additional three class levels.

Table: Reducing Level Adjustments gives the levels at which level adjustments are eligible to be reduced for starting level adjustments of +1 to +6. Creatures with a level adjustment of +7 or more retain their full normal level adjustment until reaching epic levels (21st level or higher), and thus aren't included on the table. However, you can follow the pattern described above to determine when such creatures' level adjustments can be decreased.

Experience Point Cost
Each time a character's level adjustment is eligible to be reduced, the character may pay an XP cost to take advantage of the reduction. The character must pay an amount of XP equal to (his current ECL -1) × 1,000. This amount is immediately deducted from the character's XP total. The deduction should reduce the character's effective character level (ECL) by 1. (If this deduction would not reduce the character's ECL by 1, the character's XP total is set at the maximum of the level below his current ECL instead.) This XP cost can't be reversed in any way, and the payment must be voluntary on the part of the character. The payment must be made immediately upon becoming eligible to reduce the character's level adjustment.

For instance, a 2nd-level gnoll fighter (ECL 5) who later gains a third class level has a minimum of 15,000 XP (his ECL has just gone from 5 to 6). He is eligible to reduce his level adjustment from +1 to +0. He must pay 5,000 XP, since his ECL is now 6 (2 Hit Dice plus 3 class levels plus his +1 level adjustment). After he pays the XP, his level adjustment decreases by 1 to +0. He now has 10,000 XP. His ECL falls to 5 (2 Hit Dice plus 3 class levels). Even if the XP payment would not reduce him to 5th level—for instance, if his XP total after reaching 6th level were 20,000 or more—his XP total can't remain above the maximum for 5th level, which is 10,000. Effectively, the gnoll has "paid off" his level adjustment with an XP cost, and he is now a 5th-level character.

Similarly, a drow cleric who has just reached 6th level (ECL Cool is eligible to reduce her level adjustment from +2 to +1. She must pay 7,000 XP, and her ECL becomes 7 (6 class levels plus her +1 level adjustment). When she gains her 9th class level (ECL 10), she can reduce her level adjustment to +0 (and her ECL to 9) by paying another 9,000 XP.

On the surface, this tradeoff may look like a bad deal. The drow cleric has now sacrificed 16,000 experience points, putting her behind her comrades in total class levels. Now, however, she progresses as if she had never had a level adjustment. With the self-correcting nature of the experience point system, she will soon catch up to the rest of her party, and will reach 20th level after earning a total of 206,000 XP (190,000 plus the 16,000 in XP costs). If she had not used this variant system, she would have had to amass 231,000 XP to reach her 20th class level (which is ECL 22 for a normal drow with a +2 level adjustment).

Yes it's complicated, but it helps solve the problem.

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Native Outsider?

I like LA buyoff because it lets you get rid of the Level Adjustment when it starts being a burden rather than a boon. It's a fairly inelegant solution, however, and it may not be quite right for all games. Personally, I know I'm going to be using a weird variation on it in my games.

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