My History of the Multiverse

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Iavas's picture
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My History of the Multiverse

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I've been trying to get my idea of the history of the multiverse together. So, rather than studying like I should've been, I sat here typing this up. Now, be warned, this is all rather stream of consciousness, and not at all idle reading material worthy of the Chronicles section. Rather, it is a work in progress. That being said, I am looking for opinions and suggestions of anybody brave enough to read it and lanned enough to know what they're talking about. I focused more on the cosmic scale rather than comparatively petty historical events. The timeline in the Planewalker Encyclopedia more than adequately covers that. In fact, my kudos to whoever wrote that entry. Unlike it, I did not try to include every official source that talked about planar history. Rather, I picked and chose and made my own theories. Still, I would rather not contradict too much if I could help it. So, opinions are welcome.

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Looks pretty good, I've got a few comments but I'm going off memory so please be patient with any mistakes-

The Shadow & Temporal planes probably deserve covering under the 3.5 cosmology.

I thought the Tanarri rose after the eldarin and assorted other celestials struck back against the Queen of Chaos & co

I don't like the history in FC 2 either but at least some of it should be true to at least make it a believable lie

I thought that the baatezu were created by the heart of darkness too? you don't seem to mention this. Ditto for FC1 & Shemmy's theories on Pale Night's role in the creation of the Tanarri.

Probably worth putting something in about Vestiges and Truenames although I've just finished ToM so I'm probably biased in that respect.

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Oops dead link. Sorry Iavas, but either your Angelfire page is down, or the link is bad. I'll let you know if I see it come up again.

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it needs the inverted commas taken out, after that it worked fine for me

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Oh now it works. I kind of like your time line, but I have one huge problem with it. The Outer Planes are ideas made real. They can't have been created before the Prime because they are based on prime ideas. Sure you have your Far Realm explanation, but the intelligences of the Far Realm are too alien to create something as "mundane" as the multiverse. I agree that they could have set the whole thing in motion, but in my mind, it's always been something like this:

In one tiny section of the infinitely variable and endlessly mad Far Realm, there was a place of limitless potential and endless resources -- what we now know as the Ethereal. One of the cosmic beings of the Far Realm decided for reasons only known to itself to split that place up from the rest of the Far Realm, set it on a course of change, and see what happens. A few trillion years later, the cosmic entity found that the Ethereal was exactly the way it had left it and decided to stir the pot around a bit. It started by creating an endless sphere of destruction that threatened to destroy the ethereal until the Cosmic Entity created a second sphere of raw chaos. These two spheres warped and fed each other until they began to warp the Ethereal around them until the two spheres formed into the Negative and Positve energy planes and the warped Ethereal around them formed the Inner Planes.

At the same time though, the intervention of Cosmic Entity had left an impression of thought, not intelligence, but the possibility of it. This possibillity became the Astral. Where the possibillity of thought merged with the certainty of sustance, the Prime was born. At first it was just a sea of phlogiston, but in that sea the first intelligences began to form. Later on these intelligences would become known as gods, but for the moment, they weren't even sentient. Nevertheless they were able to use the magic of creation to create the crystal spheres we know today. Or half of them did, anyway. The other half just sort of milled about in the Phlogiston occasionally eating other proto-gods or destroying spheres if it suited there whims.

And of course, at the same time they were populating the Prime with Spheres, they were populating the Astral with ideas. From the Sphere builders came the idea of Law, and from the wandering raiders came the idea of Chaos. Around these ideas the Outer Planes were born. By the time the first true mortals walked the Prime, there were already three sects of exemplars warring across the Outer Planes, but it wasn't until the Primes began to understand the concept of morality that things really got interesting.

From here I pretty much agree with Iavas. I just thought you guys might like to see another take on the whole thing for contrast.

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Bugger! I fixed the link, I think.

Just to explain my reasoning...

Azriael:
For me, I much prefer the Shadow and Temporal planes to be infinitely large Demiplanes than actual transitives, ergo lack of mention.
I am not sure who rose first, Tanar'ri or Eladrin, as I have not found any comparative mention in any source I have.
The FC2 history is your typical fallen angel story, often associated with Asmodeus. Whether or not any of it is true is hard to tell, but certainly not the part where he goes down and forms an entire Outer Plane.
As for Baatezu and Tanar'ri, I did mention that they were the results of the Yugoloth purification process and were created from Larvae and then bound to their planes. The Obyriths and Ancient Baatorians came from the Baernaloths, thus somewhat going along with the new standing theory that the 'loths made them and they made the current fiends.
I don't know much about Vestiges or Truenames. What's ToM?

Duckluck:
The problem of whether Outer or Inner/Material Planes came first is the same as the chicken and the egg. Personally, I decided to go with the inside-out approach. The reason I settled on the Far Realm explanation is this - the particular thoughts with which the creator entity created the multiverse became known as normal chaos, a part of which became law. However, those thoughts were just as bizzarre as anything else in the Far Realm. The difference is that the inhabitants of the multiverse evolved in this particular brand of bizzareness and were thus familiarized with it, calling it normal.
Going outside-in allows for the Deities to come first as aspects of ideas and then become deities after creating and being influenced by mortals. While going the other way around is certainly acceptable, it contradicts a couple of things. One of these is that many outsiders claim to be older than the Prime itself. Second, many of said outsiders, Obyriths being a prime example, are so unlike mortal life that it is unlikely that they sprouted from any mortal imagination.

All that being said, I think your theory is a very interesting alternative to my own, and a comparison of the two is just the thing to let certain players break their heads over. Eye-wink

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'Iavas' wrote:
I don't know much about Vestiges or Truenames. What's ToM?

Tome of Magic, not a bad read actually and has given me a bunch of new ideas. Basically it covers 3 types of magic not seen elsewhere - Pact Magic (Making deals with vestiges- beings which sit outside of the mainstream cosmology), Shadow Magic (which I don't imagine you will cover) and Truename magic (which I imagine would relate to the creation story although I don't necessarily agree with the mechanics)

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Yeah, I like the contrast between the two myself.

The reason I go with a Inner>Prime>Outer theory is the growth and complexity I see emerging in the Outer Planes as Primes became smarter. At first all you had is unthinking proto-gods and proto-elementals wandering the planes and all they really understood was creation, inaction, and destruction (Primal Law, Primal Neutrality, and Primal Chaos), but after a while, mortals started popping up one microbe at a time and suddenly there was this notion of help (Primal Good) and Harm (Primal Evil) and from that notion emerged the Baernaloths and whoever the Celestials evolved from. Of course, the Baerns and their enemies had been dreamed up by about the stupidest creatures you can imagine back while most of the spheres were still forming, so while they may not be older than the Prime, they are older than most of the Crystal Spheres. Despite being thought up by mold, the Baernaloths were able to grow and adapt, after all, belief is not bound by the same limitations the physical world is.

After a while, the simple notions of create and destroy and harm and hurt were refiend by more complex organisms until the Outer Planes split again and new exemplars like the Obyriths and Ancient Baatorians emerged on the planes. These beings represented animalistic emotions such as fear of the unknown. And there was fighting and manipulation on the Outer Planes more millenia, but the Prime moved on, and finally sentient mortals appeared. First they concieved of basic ideals like Benevolence and Malevolence (while later coalesced into Guardinals(?) and Yugoloths) and from there sprouted other ideals like liberty (Eladrin) and Tyrany (Baatezu). And that's how two races of exemplar became twenty.

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Azriael - I'll have to look into that one. Seems to have passed me by. I assume that's 3.5e?

Duckluck - A fine, theory, to be sure. I personally preferred that Inner > Prime > Outer view for a long time. However, certain inconsistencies, in my mind, changed my point of view. Aside from the exemplars saying they are older than the prime itself, which could for all we know be total screed, there is the little difference in form. The oldest fiends and celestials, the Yugoloths and the Guardinals, look like part animal and part human. The Guardinals take the shape of regal animals while the Yugoloths progress through an almost evolutionary hierarchy (mezzoloth/dergholoth = bug, piscoloth = crustaceon, hydroloth = amphibian, yagnoloth/nycoloth = lizard, arcanoloth = mammal, ultroloth = faceless humanoid (a few missing, I know, but still)). The oldest exemplars know, Baernaloth, also look humanoid with some randomly disgusting mammalian features. The younger fiends, particularly the Baatezu, seem to take far more inspiration from saurians and dragons. All in all, in my mind it doesn't square. Unless all of the fiends are made purely from the beliefs of humanoid mortals, which would make them quite young, then the older fiends would be more based on draconic beliefs. Also, there's the little problem of creationism, as in Planescape evolution takes a back seat to deific lifegiving.

Sorry, I hope all that made sense. It hardly does in my head. However, I'm in a rush, so I'll edit it later if it doesn't.

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'Azriael' wrote:
The Shadow & Temporal planes probably deserve covering under the 3.5 cosmology.

FWIW I mentioned the Temporal Energy plane recently in Dragon, putting it as a demiplane like it was in 2e, but adding that it was sometimes referred to by the name it had in the 3e MotP where it was included as an optional plane.

Quote:
I thought the Tanarri rose after the eldarin and assorted other celestials struck back against the Queen of Chaos & co

Nope, the Tanar'ri were created prior to that period, but very much as second-class fiends in the Abyss, servitors to the Obyriths. It was the Eladrin whose attacks against the Obyriths allowed the Tanar'ri to supplant the older fiends and rise to dominate the Abyss. We don't however know if before this point the Tanar'ri or Eladrin were created first on their respective planes (the Eladrin are a dead spot in planar pre-history at the moment).

Quote:
I don't like the history in FC 2 either but at least some of it should be true to at least make it a believable lie

I've come to accept that the first Baatezu were the result of a corruption of some of the primordial LN outsiders, so at its core there's a bit of history in the FC:II myth. But in good despotic historical-revisionism fashion, there's no need to mention the Ancient Baatorians that were already there in Baator before the Baatezu first arrived.

Quote:
I thought that the baatezu were created by the heart of darkness too? you don't seem to mention this. Ditto for FC1 & Shemmy's theories on Pale Night's role in the creation of the Tanarri.

Most of my stuff is written prior to FC:I reworking the truth of the Heart of Darkness myth, though I'm probably to blame for pimping my ideas to the authors of the FC:I which made them tackle a mention of the Baernaloths and the 'loth creation myth in the first place. So my original ideas had the Tanar'ri being spawned by the 'loths/baern dumping tainted larvae into the primordial Abyss, and at least some of the early Tanar'ri being spawned as a result of the literal rape of Pale Night. The authors seem to have run with that last idea a bit, and it inspired the line in FC:I about Pale Night potentially being the literal mother of the Tanar'ri race as a whole.

But as it stands (and my future stuff as it addresses the lawful side of the lower planes will incorporate this) the Baernaloths/General of Gehenna appear to have created the Ancient Baatorians and the Obyriths, however the legends of these events as told by the yugoloths rewrite history and present the Baatezu and Tanar'ri in place of the older fiends, probably because it's politically conveniant in the current era, and if the status quo changes, so will the myth that gets leaked out from the 'loth history books. Some of the 'loths might even believe their own falsifications on history, and their elders are probably too amused by this to tell them.

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'Iavas' wrote:
Azriael - I'll have to look into that one. Seems to have passed me by. I assume that's 3.5e?
yeah, the 2E one is very different. As I say I don't like the way they handled personal truenames but that's a discussion for another thread.

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I think I would prefer for the 'earliest of ages' to remain somewhat mysterious -- and probably also to vary from one DM's campaign to another.

The yugoloths certainly believe that they are the oldest of the fiendish races -- but the tanar'ri and baatezu also each claim to have come first.

I also think it possible that the appearance (and possibly even caste systems) of the fiends may have changed radically over incredible periods of time. When that ancient saurian race (Old Ones) were the dominant race of Sigil, would the fiends have resembled what they do today? Same goes for the days of the Illithid Empire, or times even more unthinkably far back in the past. In my opinion, the current 'true form' of an arcanaloth/ursinal/lupinal/etc. does not predate the existence of jackals, bears, and wolves in the Multiverse.

Over extremely long spans of time, planeborne would be (if we continue to follow this theory) fundamentally changed by major changes in mortal belief. I'm pretty sure Faces of Evil even hints at this -- one thing that worries the 'loths is the possibility that the concept of Evil may change.

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Shemeska:
I really like the Eladrin, being particularly drawn to the CG side of the spectrum myself. In my mind, they are the children of the Pelions as the Tanar'ri are the children of the Obyriths. However, I have not found much concerning Pelions (if indeed that is the name for the builders of the Infinite Staircase). I remember you mentioning their kind in your short story on Severeth Na’Halastrian. Would you be able to suggest any sources, 2e or Dragon, that mention them at all?

Also, I realize you do not deal much with Ancient Baatorians (at least as far as I am aware), and your vision of the interaction between Baernaloth/Yugoloth/Obyrith/Tanar'ri differs somewhat from my own. However, I would still love to have your opinion on the way I presented things in the above pdf. Particularly, something I only hinted at in my unfinished timeline, is that Pale Night was originally a CN proto-life but fell into CE after her rape by the Baernaloths, from which the Obyriths arose.

Zimrazim:
I agree with you completely. It is very much up to each individual DM, and it should not common knowledge to anybody in the campaign. Even such ancient powers as Dagon, Asmodeus, and Talisid would not know the beginning of time. Still, the reason I write this out is to base events in my campaigns on a cohesive history. That, and I randomly become anal-retentive concerning lore. Smiling

I considered the idea of exemplar forms changing over time before. In fact, I've rather accepted it. The only thing is I haven't decided is when and from what, regarding the various exemplars for my own campaign. Still, even with that change I prefer the Outer Planes to come first in my campaign, with only younger exemplar races (Eladrin, Tanar'ri, Baatezu, etc.) to have appeared after life on the Material Plane. Again, though, that's just in my campaign.

One idea that I'm toying with at the moment is that the Illithids live outside of time, or perhaps backward in it. Thus, while each individual Illithid's lifespan works forward in time, the race as a whole goes backward. Ergo, their histories are predictions for the rest of the multiverse. Haven't really thought it completely through yet (the story of my life).

Finally, where can I find more info on these "Old Ones" you speak of? I've heard of them before, but I don't remember where nor what.

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'Iavas' wrote:
Finally, where can I find more info on these "Old Ones" you speak of? I've heard of them before, but I don't remember where nor what.

Zimrazim's allusions to an "ancient saurian race" sounds like either the spell weavers (3eMMII) or, more likely, the sarrukh (Serpent Kingdoms). There's more on the the idea of a multiverse before the ascension of mammals at the Musee Arcane.

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'ripvanwormer' wrote:
'Iavas' wrote:
Finally, where can I find more info on these "Old Ones" you speak of? I've heard of them before, but I don't remember where nor what.

Zimrazim's allusions to an "ancient saurian race" sounds like either the spell weavers (3eMMII) or, more likely, the sarrukh (Serpent Kingdoms). There's more on the the idea of a multiverse before the ascension of mammals at the Musee Arcane.

That's it -- the sarrukh. I was thinking of the time when they were dominant on Faerun, not in Sigil. If you go to a time when 'humanoid' races were not yet ascendant, I'd imagine the psychological/metaphysical climate of the mortal realms was probably much different.

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'Iavas' wrote:
Shemeska: I really like the Eladrin, being particularly drawn to the CG side of the spectrum myself. In my mind, they are the children of the Pelions as the Tanar'ri are the children of the Obyriths. However, I have not found much concerning Pelions (if indeed that is the name for the builders of the Infinite Staircase). I remember you mentioning their kind in your short story on Severeth Na’Halastrian. Would you be able to suggest any sources, 2e or Dragon, that mention them at all?

There isn't much on them -at all-, and as far as I know it's only that story of mine that links the original CG race of Arborea to the Infinite Staircase. The entire idea of a CG progenitor race is really just a derivation from the Baernaloths, and the assumption that there might have been races of proto-celestials before the current celestial races came to power. The utterly ancient ruins on Pelion are what makes the idea of proto-CG celestials so yummy, and perhaps also the titan-esque beings upside down and hanging in that one layer of Carceri. I spun a few of those ideas into something coherent, but it's not something that's necessarily supported overtly in the sources.

Quote:
Also, I realize you do not deal much with Ancient Baatorians (at least as far as I am aware), and your vision of the interaction between Baernaloth/Yugoloth/Obyrith/Tanar'ri differs somewhat from my own. However, I would still love to have your opinion on the way I presented things in the above pdf. Particularly, something I only hinted at in my unfinished timeline, is that Pale Night was originally a CN proto-life but fell into CE after her rape by the Baernaloths, from which the Obyriths arose.

I haven't had a chance yet to fully read through your timeline yet, but I'll make some comments when I do. Smiling

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Zimrazim & Ripvanwormer:
Ah. I remember reading that Musee Arcane article a long time ago, when I just got into Planescape. 'course it didn't mean anything to me then. Thanks for the link.

Shemeska:
Ah! See, now I feel guilty about subconsciously stealing your ideas. Sorry. It's just some of the stuff I've read in the Chronicles section of Planewalker has sort of blended into all the canonical stuff I try to keep together in my brain-box. Anyway, I'll see how I can adjust it to make it a tad more original. And what of these titan-esque beings hanging upside-down in Carceri. Do you mean the titans of the Greek pantheon?

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I like the theory that Archons and celestials in general derive from a mostly CG race we know as Aeons. This race produced all the raw materials of the Outer Planes. They influenced the nature of the more material planes emerging or re-emerging from the Deep Ethereal. They even helped shape the Lawful entities who would set the current boundaries of all the planes, though opinions differ as to how much of this the Aeons intended to happen.

Then came the Far Realm incursion that produced the Illithid Empire (or, as the mind flayers prefer to call it, the First Illithid Empire). At some point after this, the Aeons chose to withdraw from their home in Pelion. They knew that in order to stay they'd have to kill not just mind flayers but imitation illithid empires like the Imaskari as well. Not wanting to do that, and not wanting to prevent it by imposing their own law on mortals, they vanished from history. Nobody knows where they went. Some ancient songs of the elves suggest that Morwel's Court of Stars might still act as a bridge between Pelion and the hidden realm of the Aeons.

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Close to what I had, Moral-Decay. I just put a greater pure Good (not NG, mind you, pure Good, like the Baernaloths are pure Evil) race as all the other *G races' forebears. Which source does the name Aeon come from? I would love to look that up.

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We stole the name Aeon from Gnosticism, which also supplied "archon" originally. Both come from Greek. An Aeon created the first Archon without meaning to and then regretted it, hence the Chaotic Good alignment. I think I stole the rest of my version from Tolkien. Stealing from multiple sources is "research".

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When I say "we" I mean me and some fan source I've forgotten.

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'Iavas' wrote:
Shemeska: Ah! See, now I feel guilty about subconsciously stealing your ideas. Sorry. It's just some of the stuff I've read in the Chronicles section of Planewalker has sort of blended into all the canonical stuff I try to keep together in my brain-box. Anyway, I'll see how I can adjust it to make it a tad more original. And what of these titan-esque beings hanging upside-down in Carceri. Do you mean the titans of the Greek pantheon?

I believe Shemeska's referring to the hanging giant bodies that form the basis for the town of Gallowshome on Colothys, mentioned in the "Players Guide to Conflict". This indicates that the giants are part of a long dead race which predates recorded history and that Fiends aviod the area if possible. It also mentions that the rotting giants might not actually be dead despite their slitted throats- just sleeping.

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'Azriael' wrote:
I believe Shemeska's referring to the hanging giant bodies that form the basis for the town of Gallowshome on Colothys, mentioned in the "Players Guide to Conflict". This indicates that the giants are part of a long dead race which predates recorded history and that Fiends aviod the area if possible. It also mentions that the rotting giants might not actually be dead despite their slitted throats- just sleeping.
I forgot all about those poor sods since first reading about them. They don't seem particularly Good to me, though, even if the fiends are afraid of them. Somehow, the Nephilim come to mind. While I don't think they were ever explicitly mentioned in any Planescape source, their parents the Watchers definately were (Planes of Law, p10 of Mount Celestia booklet).

What I got from Wikipedia and other sources - in some real world Biblical Apocrypha, namely the books of Enoch and Jubilees, the Grigori, or Watchers, are angels that were tasked to watch over humanity but fell from grace when they began to interact with their charges in various ways. One of those ways produced the Nephilim, sometimes translated as giants or titans, which were supposedly wiped out by the Great Flood. The Rephaim, which are sometimes associated with the Nephilim, are translated from Hebrew as "the dead ones". Sound familiar? While Carceri's 200yd tall hanging giants are much bigger than the 13ft Rephaim, they are also fantasy. Ergo, I think it's a pretty close bet that the hanging giants are the banished children of the fallen Watcher archons.

'Moral-Decay' wrote:
We stole the name Aeon from Gnosticism, which also supplied "archon" originally. Both come from Greek. An Aeon created the first Archon without meaning to and then regretted it, hence the Chaotic Good alignment. I think I stole the rest of my version from Tolkien.
Ah, I see. Thanks for pointing me down that path. I never really looked into Gnostic sources for inspiration, nor do I really know anything about them. Tolkien, however, I do know about, and I assume the parts that you borrowed from him were the Valar retreating to Valinor after having enough of elvish squabbling and human power-mongering (nb. my summary does not do justice to The Silmarillion by a long shot).

'Moral-Decay' wrote:
Stealing from multiple sources is "research".
Hehe. Agreed.

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