Motives of Paizo's Fiends?

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sciborg2's picture
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Motives of Paizo's Fiends?

So do I have this correct:

Devils: Seek to corrupt mortals by making them think the way devils do about reality. Devils seek to convert mortals to into minions of Hell. The end goal is to have Hell have recognized dominion over All.

Demons: Seek the torture and degradation of mortals, using mortals as playthings. Want to degrade and torture mortals. Ultimately all reality will be dragged into the Abyss or lie in ruins and demons will keep mortals as livestock.

Daemons: Seek to end all mortal life as a final goal. Obsessed with devouring souls. Some day the entire cosmos will breathe its last breath, and all be Void and the Daemons will either be at peace or transcend or just kill themselves because they are insane.

Divs: Seek to destroy the works of mortals and bring them ruin. Some conflict between Divs and mortals set them against us - they care nothing for our souls and only wish to devour our bodies and break our societies.

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ripvanwormer's picture
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Re: Motives of Paizo's Fiends?

I thought divs were undead daemons?

Hyena of Ice's picture
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Re: Motives of Paizo's Fiends?

That sounds completely different from their motives in D&D, where they prettymuch all want the same thing (expansion of their plane/race/alignment until it is the only one that exists-- yeah, there's the Blood War, but that factors into the larger goal mentioned above. Though, that said, that goal exists for all outsider races and elementals-- they exist solely to protect their native plane from intrusions and 'impurities', and expand its influence across the multiverse.)

sciborg2's picture
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Re: Motives of Paizo's Fiends?

I like Paizo's conception, I just have a hard time separating demons from divs in terms of goals.

But it seems the demons come from mortal sin and divs don't, so I think the demons would want mortals around in a state of eternal suffering while divs just want to see our civilization destroyed.

I suppose Sciborg 3.0 could manifest on the Paizo boards and ask, but I also wanted to discuss this with people here. Looking at it, I can see Planescape incorporating the Divs and even the Daemons.

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Palomides's picture
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Re: Motives of Paizo's Fiends?

When I use demons, I have them focused on destruction and corruption but not just the pointless destruction of a bomb or a zombie horde.
While I have some demons as pure destructive forces, I try to use the more powerful ones as forces that undermine that which has created.

For example, demon could just tear a farmer in two but it would gain more power (or enjoyment) by tempting this farmer, who is also a devoted husband and father, into infidelity and turning his back on his family. I see the cults of demons centering on unleashing the base emotions of the id in mortals. Where demons go, debauchery and deprevity follow

I contrast this with devils who I see as not wanting to destroy the universe so much as they want to destroy the "political" structure of the gods and re-order it with themselves on top.
Devils appeal (IMO) more to those who feel displaced or powerless. The second son of the king, who will NOT be inheriting the kingdom, would be susceptable to the whispered promises of devils. Similarly, a minority that is treated as second-class citizens (e.g. half-orcs) might be tempted with the promises of the power available to them if only they were "strong" enough to take it.
The devil also develops cults involving deprevity, sex , etc. but in all cases, these are used either to blackmail others or used as rewards for those willing to try to take control and behave like a tyrant. it is only AFTER the mortal succumbs to these lures that the mortal comes to appreciate that his devil "ally" is really his overlord.

Hyena of Ice's picture
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Re: Motives of Paizo's Fiends?

"Encorporating"?
The Daemons are the Yugoloths-- that's what they were called in 1E, and once in a long while in 2E (the term was eventually abandoned however since Demon and Daemon are simply the Latin and Greek spellings/pronunciations of the exact same word respectively, plus it confused too many people due to the 1- letter difference-- The term was resurrected by Necromancer and other 3rd party companies since "Yugoloth" is a copyrighted term.)

I have not yet gathered the courage to delve into Pathfinder, so I cannot comment on the material myself beyond what people are posting here, though as I said before, this sounds quite different from D&D canon, especially since the Yugoloths have no intention of destroying the multiverse-- the ultimate Yugoloth goal is to snuff out Chaotic and Lawful evil (and supplanting it), then finally snuffing out goodness once and for all-- the Blood War is entirely their orchestration and is a key facet of this plan (not only that, but the General of Gehenna, with the help of the Baernaloths, is the one who inadvertently created the Baatorians and the Obyriths in the first place). While there is a small amount of overlap, neither faction of 'loth is into destroying the world or killing for the sake of killing-- the 'loths of Gray Waste are into inflicting pain and disease for its own sake, while the 'loths of Gehenna are into scheming and obstructionism.

sciborg2's picture
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Re: Motives of Paizo's Fiends?

Palo - I like your take on Demons vs. Devils. I see things similarly -> Demons as interested in the process of destruction/degradation and Devils as wanting everyone to be a good citizen of the Hellish Big Brother.

Hyena - Looking at it, I think incorporate is the right word. Though Fiendish Corporations popping up might even throw the yugoloths off. Smiling

Pathfinder's Great Beyond, written by the Shemeska herself (aka Todd Stewart) is a great planar supplement. I highly recommend it.

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Shemeska the Marauder's picture
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Re: Motives of Paizo's Fiends?

The Divs are the corrupted souls of dead genies. They also dwell in the daemon's home plane, but they're largely restricted to the unclaimed wastelands that lie outside of the realms of the Four (Horsemen) because the daemons don't just eat the souls of mortals, they'll eat other outsiders too. The daemons just as a racial goal only care about devouring mortal souls (though individual daemons and some of the Horsemen may have slightly different broader or more focused goals). More detail on the daemons in the forthcoming BotD3.

As far as daemons and yugoloths, I tried to be very conscious of having too many similar traits in motivation and action. For instance while the meladaemons are superficially jackal-headed, they're not arcanaloths. You'd never want a meladaemon serving as the fiendish social butterly representative of daemons to interact with mortals in a planar trade city like the arcanaloths often were for the 'loths.

To be honest the closest you'll get to a PS 'loth in terms of attitude and such is Tegresin the Laughing Fiend who pops up in 'The Great Beyond' and 'Classic Treasures Revisited', and a story I wrote last year for Pathfinder Chronicler. He'll slurp souls with the best of daemons, but he's -old- and he has the same cynical deity-hatred that 'loths had, but no canonical details on what he actually is or what he truly wants. He might show up in BotD3 but if so only a mention and that might or might not survive editing.

sciborg2's picture
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Re: Motives of Paizo's Fiends?

Thanks Shemmy. Reading the Pathfinder material it seems Divs and Demons revel in destruction, though Demons seem more about ruination and making things more Abyssal.

A few books mention demons as focusing on destruction, but also with the continuation of mortal life and sin. So I guess demons are sadists who want "shrieking harems", to borrow a line from Scott Bakker's Prince of Nothing, whereas Divs will be happy when humanity is killed off and its civilization in ruins?

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Quale's picture
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Re: Motives of Paizo's Fiends?

Divs want to ruin mortal lives and prolong their suffering, they are more into sustaining evil and experimenting with it like the 'loths (and Iinchoroi).

sciborg2's picture
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Re: Motives of Paizo's Fiends?

Heh, reminds me of the Ballad of the Inchoroi from Bakker's books:

And the Nonman King cried words that sting: "Now to me you must confess, For death above you hovers!" And the Emissary answered ever wary: "We are the race of flesh, We are the race of lovers."

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