There used to be a article in the "Urban Planescape" section of PW.com on Modern Baator/Hell...It had a theme of a corporate Hell and, I think, was the same article that was on the Wizards' UP board, or perhaps on the previous homepage of UP...I was just wonderin' what happened to it as I notice that on the "Thread of Threads" there's no link to Modern Hell...I thought it was a pretty interestin' take on a UP Baator...
Kwint
Modern Hell/Baator?
Since I haven't been sure where to post this opinion, I'll do it here.
Baator should be about perfection and elitism.
Well, that's something everybody knows, but here are some examples for UP:
Classical music playing everywhere.
Erinyes' arguing about the quality of their implants and hair.
Arch-Fiends who are willing to suck the life out of a small sector of their layer just to get themselves the best limousine in Baator.
We should somehow emphasize how each is trying to out do the other with looks. Like Hollywood gone way too far.
Perhaps it could be possible to improve your position in Hell's pecking order with your looks?
Or more like that you can improve your standings to a certain point, which then in time becomes/became the standard limit for common folk.
Like you aren't any better than a lemure, unless you've gone through every possible surgery and cosmetic.
Lower baatezu could be like that. Higher baatezu might be 1000s of years old old-school tormentors :twisted:
I would almost argue that higher baatezu should almost always be uglier than their lower counterparts. They're like the equivalent of the corporate leaders at the top of every business that don't have to look handsome/beautiful to be powerful, and as a result, they aren't. The exceptions to this rule might be erinyes with higher amounts of power, who might be equivalent to Baator's Hollywood stars/starlets.
I would also be willing to have a "glass ceiling" type of thing implemented... only one slightly more literal than the typical usage. It seems like a form of torment urban baatezu might like.
Baator is going to be a tricky plane to convert-mostly because everyone and his dog has a different idea of what modernized Hell should look like. Fortunately, there are 9 layers to work with, so different manifestations of Lawful Evil (Hell as militarized fascism, Hell as a place of pain and suffering, Hell as a gigantic corporation, etc) can all be included in Urban Planescape.
Dis would be a real nightmare a super massive city filled with fiends trying to get up in the pecking order.Glass cieling? but would'nt be a glass floor?
![Smiling Smiling](sites/all/modules/smileys/packs/Example/smile.png)
It might be better to go with two things as a good rubric for determining what version of Baator to go with: representation and natural progression.
The layers of Baator are not randomly picked out of someone's hat. They *do* have a signifigance and concept of belief that they represent (too many layers to match with the seven sins, sorry, it's not that neat and tidy). So if we're lost on the subject, we should match the modern version to the traditional meaning. Baator is going to be more complex than a single description of the place could achieve.
So:
1 Avernus: war, violence
2 Dis: iron, domination, 'civilized' progress
3 Minauros: sloth, disease, corruption
4 Phlegethos: forge (or crucible), the remaking of things
5 Stygia: loss, forgetfulness
6 Malbolge: apathy, free fall
7 Maladomini: perfection, pride, imposition of will on environment
8 Cania: pride, imprisonment
9 Nessus: pride, tyranny, harshness
We also know enough about the old Baator to progress the politics and leadership to any new configuration. It's not like we have to make up *any* of this out of complete scratch. We have something to start with.
I like the list-mind if I make some modifications to it and set them as our "themes" for each layer?
I think this is an excellent start with that you could flesh out a modern nine hells.
This list was taken from the back of the first chapter of Dicefreak's "The Gates of Hell"- I've included my own comments in parentheses:
Breakdown of the Perditions:
Avernus: War. Corrupted Honor. Violence. Genocide...(the modern armed-forces of Baator, backed by an infernal industrial-military complex)
Dis: Corrupted Ethics. Stagnation. Sloth. Elitists...(best match for Corporate Hell-meaningless work assignments, century long meetings, corporate intrigue)
Minauros: Greed. Averice. Envy...(a welfare state gone horribly wrong-everyone is equal in their destitution)
Phlegethos: Pain. Suffering. Physical Oppresion. Fire...(Also, purification- making souls useful to the needs of Hell. An aspect of physical oppresion is control through pleasure-there's probably a thriving drug trade in Phlegethos)
Stygia: Traitors. Gluttony. Ignorance. Water...(Gluttony means much more than eating till you're bloated, though that is part of it. A broader definition would be a desire have something that's so powerful, one goes to any length to acquire it, even though they won't be satisfied when they have it. Also, an Important aspect of ignorance is willful ignorance-If you don't know who suffered for you to gain something, then there is nothing to feel bad about)
Malbolge: Corrupt Nature...(Natural relations, both in the wild and in civilization, are rearranged in order to benefit Hell. Genetic engineering for infernal goals would be an important aspect of this theme)
Maladomini: Pride. Perfection. Intrigue. Arrogance...(An Orwellian Big Brother state, where close "associates" are constantly spying on each other to gain some valuable secret)
Cania: Corrupt Knowledge. Contempt. Careless Stocism. Cold...(Knowledge is pursued with no regard to anything else, and once acquired, used to achieve greater power, which in turn leads to more knowledge. Everything else in the cosmos is worthless).
Nessus: Damnation. Power. Lost Knowledge. Tyranny. Darkness. Oppresion...(This layer is secretive, but provides tantilizing glimpses of what is hiding in the Darkness. Such glimpses are both terrifying and mesmerizing. This layer personifies the Overlord's command over Lawful Evil)
It still leaves the question of modern devils. Who are they and how do they act?
Same species - so I don't think that'd need to be changed much.
How they act? Same way. As civilized, orderly, viscious, evil, fiends.
Primary motivations in dealing with mortals: "Get your soul."
Primary motivations in dealing with tanarri: "I'm right. You're wrong. Nyahnyahnayha."
I don't see them changing *that* much other than using the tools of modernity to be more effecient.
I keep thinking pit fiend lawers and gelugon attorneys I don't know why and would'nt there be cyber fiends?
Eyrines who post frequently on political forums subtly guiding the course of political thought?
Well, one major change is that modern societies have a greater body of laws than standard D&D settings. Also, there are a greater number of ways for Baatezu to spread corruption (as well as more channels to resist their corruption). Finally, the Baatezu are trying to win over an increasingly sophisticated crowd of mortals. So while their objectives are the same, the strategies they use will fit with the times-legal intimidation, lobbying, business incentives, backroom dealing, spin-doctoring, insider trading, etc.
And of course there are still occasions where the best course of action is an infernal invasion.
Wait... this may be kinda obvious, but I don't think anyone has seen it yet.
Baator has invaded primes in the past. More then a few campaigns are based around defeating an army of invading fiends. but the thing is: they had to win some of them.
Think about it. I can easily see the Bataazue as being Imperialistic. Taking over primes, imposing their tainted brand of order on it, and setting up a socioty which encourages a actions and an alignment sure to send the souls who live there straight to the 9 hells. Or just take it over and used manual labor to pump out wands for dirt cheap prices to sell for twice their value on the planar market. I don't know. but It seems silly that they would bother invading primes if they didn't manage to do it at least once or twice.
And I dont see them as laying waste to it and leaving. Thats seems more like the tan'ari's style.
And ya know what?
You're *right*. Even in regular planescape you're right. No one settled down to write that out in PS cause they were focusing on the planes and had a page count limit.
While we definately don't have a page count limit, I'm not sure if we want to do more than mention a few such dominated Primes in UPS (*yay!* We have an achronym!) simply b/c it'd be rather silly to have our volunteers spending their mental juice on detailed writups of Primes when we still have things like Sigil hanging around to be defined...
they shall be done at a later time no doubt I'd love to flesh out a world like that.
Of course, I'd look forward to it myself... so.... get to work on UPS so we can get to it sooner! *whip crack*
Okay then. We wouldn't even need to completly flesh out such a prime. It isn't likely to play a major role on the planes, anyway. But mentioning them, or even having a bunch of humans from such a prime serving as 'interns' (Humans who have proven their devotion to the Bataazue cause, and are assured a rank of a lowly imp upon death. Might as well get a jump on the process, right?). These humans whould have to be very good at being Lawful Evil, to the point that any one of them could probably be a decent villian in their own right. After all, they managed to impress the bataazue, right? It's amazing waht you can do with Culturally brainwashing the citizens of a world from the age of 5.
Yeah, the Harmonium proved *that* after all...
From Dicefreak's write up on Lixer (Asmodeus' son through a mortal noblewomen), the Pale Prince of Hell was born on the prime world of Sharnth. I'd assume that by the UPS time period, this world is firmly under Infernal control.
hm... mortals wering suits that constantly said intern and which lord they served,I like it.So once we UPS done or near completion I do believe that shall be the next prime to be fleshed out.sharnth good name has a nice ring to it.
Editor's note: added to the "Thread of Threads"
I'm thinking of writing up a major Internet god myself. I'm thinking of calling him Datalus.
Found "Modern Hell" if anyone wants to know.
I'll track it down - I think it's still around somewhere.