Modern Hell

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Modern Hell

In prevoise attempts to Modernize the planes (although, technically, this is an extension of the origional effort) Hell is usually portrayed as having addpoted a coporate settup. However, this angle seems lacking and narrow focused. Here is my take on a modernized Hell, layer by layer.

Avernus
The first layer of Baator is a wasteland of broken concreate, barbed wire and choking smog. Amidst the eternal rain of flames, massive factory complexes churn out the armaments for the diabolic legions, while in the massive courtyards the fiends themselves drill endlessly, preparing for the next battle with the Tanar'ri.
Filling the factories and the training grounds are the twisted soul shells and lemures, working endlessly under the eyes of the greater fiend overseers. Those who do not work up to expectations and fail to meet quotas are turned into raw materials for Hell's terribe machine of war.
Amidst the clusters of industrial horror are gleaming accademies for the elite of Baatezu society, where the Pit Fiend generals are trained in the art of tactics and administration.
The Bronze Citadel: Towering over the surrounding industrial complexes and training grounds stands the Bronze Citadel. A fortress city built of riveted and tarnished scrap metal, the central power of Avernus at first appears as a blasted and decrepit wreck. Yet under the decay and rust lies of core of stainless steel and fiberoptics. From his comand room at the citadel's heart, Warlord-Regent Bael can observe and command anything within the entierity of the first hell.
The Pillar of Skulls: Towering high into the clouds of soot and smog, this landmark is both a testament to the Devil's might in war and a visual history of their enemies. Near the base of the tower the mostly demonic skulls display almost as much metal as bone, while the higher, and older, reaches of the tower are pure, a reminder to the devils that, as they have changed and grown greater, so have their enemies, and that they should never grow complacent in the propagation of Law and Evil.
At the Pillar's base old Tiamat rests, not reduced by her scarred hide and sightless eyes, gaurding the stairway from Avernus to Dis while her chromatic children attend to wills and desires.
The Domain of Kurtulmak: Deep under the surface of Avernus are the cavernous domains of Kurtulmak. In the upper caverns of this realm, massive hordes of kobolds are trained in swarming tactics and massed combat. In the deeper reaches of this realm, the best of koboldkind train endlessly as spies and assasins of nigh unparralled skill.

Dis
The second layer of Baator is a city of red hot stainless steel. Skyscrapers rise like an eternal and terrible forest. The streets are packed with vehicles and the sidewalks bustle with the economic comings and goings of the city's fiendish occupants.
Within the glowing hot towers soul shells and lemures shuffle between cubicles and offices, delivering the commands and dictates of the Baatezu Elite to the lesser fiends that labor endlessly, designing and programing and filing and accounting, slaving away endlessly to fufill the plans and purposes of their masters. In their tower to offices, the Baatezu nobles plan and scheme, playing an intracate game of economic diplomacy and sabatoge.
The Iron Tower: Rising above the city's tallest skyscraper rises the Iron Tower, the executive center of Dis. Out of place in this city of glowing metal and burning glass, the tower is sculpted of black iron as if by a demented gothic architect. Yet for all its twisted monstrosity, it displays a dark symetry and purpose.
Within this barolk monstrosity resides Dispater, the Executive-Regent of the city. From the tower he can observe everything that happens in his domain, every petty victory and defeat in the war of currency and trade that rages below him, every plot and plan of his underlings.

Minauros
The third layer of Baator is a damp wasteland of thick, soft mud and decay. Littering the grounds are the corpses of ancient forgotten beasts. Rising from the muck are industrial furnaces that produce consumer goods to be exported and sold to the rest of the Hells. The massive revenue produced is sucked into the coffers of the Minauros bureocracy, and most of the workers are destitute, even by Hell's standards.
The City of Minauros: Rising into the sky like some ancient and decrepit beast is the city of Minauros, from which the layer gains its name. The lower levels of the city are relatively uninhabited, and house the vaults of the burocrates and tax collectors. The stone from which these layers are built is old, damp and scored by acid, a testament to the great acidic swamps that once filled the layer.
Above the vaults are the manors of the Burocrats and Taxcollectors themselves, massive estates filled with servants and slaves. At the highest point in the city lies the estate of the Viscount-Regent Mammon, a mausolem miles wide crafted from the finest marble in the planes.
Jangling Hiter: High above the muck and decay of the plains below, the Kyton city of Jangling Hiter is suspended in the sky by huge chains of steel and iron. Within the city of Chains, the Kytons regard each other as equals, but defer to Qytel. Under his guidance, the city has become the shipping and transportation center of the layer, and most of the goods exported pass through the city before being sent to their final destination.

Phlegethos
Phlegatos is an ancient, firey wasteland. Great, endless expanses of burning sand are criss crossed by rivers of lava, while and endless rain of scortching ash falls from the blood red skies. Dotting this terrible landscape are cities of garrish neon and terrible vice. In these cities, vice is sold on every street by a myriad of pimps, pushers and others, offering a bewildering array of exploitation and cruelty. In these twisted streets, sadism is the name of the game, and cruelty a virtue.
Abriymoch: Sprawling out of the caldera of an ancient volcano, Abriymoch is the greatest of the cities of vice. Here, the twisted pleasures of the layer are magnified a thousand fold.
Lady-Regent Fierna rules from this city. Her lavish orgies of pleasure and pain are legendary throughout the planes. Some whisper that Fierna is not the layer's true lord, but is instead a front for a more ancient evil, suposedly deposed in the legendary Dies Irae.

Stygia
BUY! BUY! SPEND! A SOUL SAVED IS A SOUL WASTED! NEW SLAVES TODAY, JUST 3 SOULS A DOZEN! BUY! SPEND!
On entering the Fifth Hell, a being is deluged by an unending stream of advertisements, propaganda, comercials, moral lessons, everything the mind could possible conceave. The layer is a frozen world, with massive ice flows drifting through a frigid sea. Under the waters, built into the undersides of the frozen bergs are cities, surrounded by magical wards that keep the waters of the styx from pouring in. These wards are not entirely effective, and a mind numbing mist fills the streets, slowly sapping the will and memories of the petitioners and fiends that dwell here.
Everywhere are vision screens, magical resonators projecting telepathic messages, billboards, speakers and a host of stranger methodes of media all filling the vacancies of the mind caused by the styxian mists with messages to buy, spend, do this, do that, belive this, obey that, all bombarding the mind in an uneding torrent. In these cities, goods produced in Minauros are sold according to the economic plans of Dis, all advertised by the media of Stygia.
Tantlin: Once known as the City of Ice, Tantalin is the one city free of the unending torrent of advertisement. Here is the marketing core of the layer, where the ad campaigns and the subliminal messages that bombard the rest of the layer are concocted. In the harbor of the city is a massive iceberg in which Leviathin is trapped. In the facets of ice can be seen flickers of images, all displaying the works of mental conditioning that are constantly being concotted by the lord of the Fifth.

Malbolge
The sixth layer of hell is an endless maze of stone cliffs. Scafolding of steel cling to the sheer cliffs like the webs of spiders. Among these scafolds the slaves of hell labor endlessly, harvesting the ores and materials for the machines of Avernus and Minauros. Smoke belches from the hanging refineries, filling the air and staining the rock faces, while the wastes of the refining process are thrown into the endless depths, falling on the lower refineries and mining camps as a filithy rain.
Palace of the Countess: At the center of a massive web of scafolds, hanging between two of the endless cliff faces, the Regent-Hag supervises the endless mining opperations. She sells equally to every layer of Hell, reaping great rewards in the process.
Lost Camps: Dotting the endless expanses of cliff faces are the rusting remnants of those camps who failed to meet the quotas set to them by the Hag countess. Within these webs of rust and decay strange creatures hide, their horrific howlings echoing up through the canyon walls, filling the slaves of hell with terror. These scafolds are observed by specially asigned devils from Nessus, who bear authority equal to a duke of hell.

Maladomini
The Seventh Hell is a world of ruined citys, crumbling, cesspool lined roads and rusting iron. Within this ruined wasteland, lesser devils huddle in sagging buildings bereft of even the hope of acension through the ranks of their race, broken and defeated.
Perstata: Rising from the ruin and decay of the layer, Perstat is a titanic city of white and grey, gleaming in the dim light. Here, devils of all ranks move about their lives according to prescripted plans, performing actions and thinking thoughts all chosen by the supreme master of the city, Regent Beezulbub. Here, every action is carefully observed and documented, every movement examined, every thought cataloged by the legions of observers, and all this is passed on the Beezulbub. Any sign of divergence from the norm is stamped out, every subversive element culled. Identical devils perform identical tasks in identicle rooms of identicle buildings in identicle blocks of the perfectly symetric city.
At least, that is what the masters of the city would have you believe. The higher eschalons of the citie's rule are rife with plotting and politics, as each ranking devil attempts to throw doubt on their rivals' perfect adherence to the order and malice of the city.

Cania
The Eighth layer of Hell is wrapped in eternal cold. Massive glaciers rise from plains of ice, all covered by an undying blizzard. The entire layer is lit by the surreal glow of fiberoptic cables running through the ice, and the frozen wastes are criss crossed by cables conveying information to and from the sealed and enviornmentally controlled labs in which the fiendish researchers conduct horrific experiments in the search for new knowledge.
Mephistar: In the end, all the cables carrying information, all the waves of communication converge on Mephistar. Here, Lord-Regent Mephistopheles sifts through the masses of information, deciding which projects shall be funded and which shall be cut, which discovery will be released to which researchers, which technologies will be implemented and which shall be stored away for some other time. All knowledge comes to the Frozen Lord, but only what he wants leaves.
Shapes in the Ice: Deep within some glaciers of Cania, strange shapes can be seen. Around such glaciers are zones of darkness where no cables run. These zones have been declared off limits to the fiendish research body as a whole, and only specially assigned fiends ever are given a chance to study them.
Experimentation Camps: Amidst the glowing icebergs lie massive camps, cut off from the rest of the plane by magically sealed walls of jagged metal. Within these camps are collected the "research subjects" of Cania. Each camp specializes in a particular form of subject. Camps for elves, humans, dwarves, and exemplar breeds can all be found, and some camps are even more specialized, containing only members of a particular subrace or even religion, political leaning, or whatever classification can be imagined. Within these camps some "research subjects" undergo horrific tortures and strange treatments, while others are kept healthy and fit, so as to provide the maximum amount of variety for testing.
The Pit: Surrounded by a ledge of titanic iceberges is the Pit. The primary access point to Nessus, the pit is several hundred feet wide, and from it issues an uneding torrent of steam. Several elevators made of superheated steel are built into the sides of of the pit, and it is from the points that they contact the frozen walls of the pit that the steam issues. These elevators are gaurded by legions of fiends.

Nessus
The Nineth Hell. The of all the incarnations of Law and Evil, this is the most true. Here, no factories belch forth smoke, no lesser fiends toil endlessly at the whims of their dark lords. That is the job of the other Eight.
Here, the ground is glassy, an endless plain of still hot obsidan, all cracks and imperfections smoothed out. Rising from this endless expanse of shimmering solidified flame are the pristine cities of white marble and steel. Under these lightless skies, the Baatezu rulers of Hell govern the affairs of the other Eight, their subtle interfierance reminding the Lord-Regents of who truely sits upon the Serpent Throne of Hell.
Malsheem: Towering into the sunless sky, the great citadel of Malsheem is the largest structure in all the planes. Hundreds of miles high at the least, this is but the tip of the iceberg. Worming its way deep into the very surface of Nessus, the great Citadel houses armies vast beyond anything every fielded in the Blood War, legions of Pit Fiends larger and more cunning than any other of that breed anywhere.
From this terrible fortress, the Dark Eight, a council of the greatest Pit Fiends in the history of the Nine issue the edicts that shape Hell.
The Serpent Chamber: Rumor speaks of a chamber within the deepest layer of Malsheem, far deeper than any Lord of the Nine or Duke of Hell has ever set foot, where the miles long True Form of the Lord of Hell, Asmodeus, rests in a sea of its own ichor, its ancient wounds slowly healing. Those fools who whisper these secrets last no longer than a day before their destruction.

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Nice. That's very extensive. I do think it needs more modern and futuristic features though. I didn't read much on Nessus that wouldn't fit into regular planescape. If this is going to be a cyberpunk world then it needs more techno-stuff, methinks. I agree that a "corporate Hell" has been done already and is not very original. A politburo hell or a hell of fulfilled desires would be something new.

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"Krypter" wrote:
A politburo hell or a hell of fulfilled desires would be something new.
A brief detailing of the arch-devils who sit on the committee, as well as covering some of the basic details of certain policies that have been enacted by the committee would be ideal...

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"Fell" wrote:
A brief detailing of the arch-devils who sit on the committee, as well as covering some of the basic details of certain policies that have been enacted by the committee would be ideal...

I'm sorry, citizen, but I cannot reveal that information as the Hell Party has not announced the retro-active annulment of Belephon's membership in the Central Devil Committee. We are in the process of air-brushing his photo from the official archives and throwing all scrolls referring to his name down the memory hole. Please apply for a permit to review Committee membership in 2-4 months time at the Central Planning Hell on Level 9 (New Jersey). Your file has been updated with this request and the proper authorities have been notified.

Laughing out loud

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That kind of revisionist history thinking though, would require significant time and resources on the part of the Baatezu nobility to ensure that certain references and/or details are expunged from the public record.

I'm sure that in the Nine Hells, this committee likely has a force to police such methods of "historical restructuring", but would this force be useful in places outside Baator?

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It could try to be, but does it have to be effective? Presumably they'd also go to great lengths to eliminate any leaks to the rest of the multiverse, to greatly reduce the flow of contradictory information (though it could serve its own purpose).

And that leaves me imagining a group of (radical|barmy) Shiners plotting some kind of visit to Baator.

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Which leaves the question open of who controls the network... Whoever is responsible for the conduction of their operations, having access to the organisation is going to grant him/her/it a significant amount of political power within the internal hierarchy of the Nine Hells.

One of the Dark Eight perhaps? But who... Corin, Zaebos, or Zapan? Given the secretive nature of the work involved, I would assume Corin...

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"Persephone Imytholin" wrote:
And that leaves me imagining a group of (radical|barmy) Shiners plotting some kind of visit to Baator.

I think it's safe to say that most Archivists are completely barmy anyway, but they're also damn good at what they do. Need I remind you about the incident in the Gehenna when Revealing Light agents infiltrated the Tower of Arcanaloths... successfully. It was probably the first time in the history of the planes in which the Yugoloths were completely caught with their pants down.

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Very well conceived! I think you're right saying we a corporate hell is too much of a joke in a serious setting. I like the idea of an almost communistic hell.

OFF ON A TANGENT: Communism and cyberpunk have a lot in common: I'm planning on running a one-shot soon in a cyberpunk world where the Soviets won. All the themes of cyberpunk can be easily adapted to a communist rather than corporate regime: safety vs. freedom, mind vs. meat, power vs. rebellion, appearances vs. reality. It's such a good fit, I'm amazed no-one's done it before.

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Wow! I really like this modernization alot.

Nessus sounds pretty damn cool to me personally. Not that I'd want to be there, I'm just saying, the whole "Smooth obsidian surface, free of perfections" and stuff like that. The picture I got in my mind of what it looks like is pretty cool at least.

I'm interesting in seeing what direction you take with all of the other lower planes (I've always been a much bigger fan of the lower planes myself, although Elysium and Mount Celestia have a certain appeal to me as well).

Is The Grey Waste "Goth Heaven" ? Smiling

Pandemonium should also be fairly interesting.

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"TheRoastSlinky" wrote:
Very well conceived! I think you're right saying we a corporate hell is too much of a joke in a serious setting. I like the idea of an almost communistic hell.

That's basically what I was thinking on the way through. Stygia reminds me of the mind-controlled population in Bullfrog's Syndicate games. Maladomini (well, Malguard at least) has a very Nineteen Eighty-Four feel. Plegethos strikes me as an echo of Freeside in William Gibson's Neuromancer.

Deadone, maybe you'd like to send this through MyPW.

"LegatoX" wrote:
Is The Grey Waste "Goth Heaven"?

The Grey Waste is more a nuclear wasteland these days.

Quote:
Pandemonium should also be fairly interesting.

Pandemonium's been replaced by Erebus. I'll see if I can find a thread about it on the old boards.
ETA: Or Bob the Efreet will.

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Thanks for the feedback. Here is a listing of the comparitive factions of Hell (old and new)

Factions
Old Hell
The True Devils
Made up of the old gaurd of Hell's aristocracy, no fallen here.
Lead by Mephistopheles,
Dispater,
Mammon (no longer part of this faction since the Dies Irae)
Possibly Bael (Bel)

The Fallen
Those purged from Heaven in the Great Fall. Despised as Newcommers and Upstarts by the True Devils.
Led by Baalzebul,
Belail and Fierna

The Independents
Each a faction unto themselves, or too traitorous to belong to a faction.
Lord of the Serpent Throne, King of Hell, Asmodeus
Lillith (Hag Countess)
Leviathin (Levitus)

New Hell
The Despots
Ruling with an iron fist, the Despots seek to enslave their subjects with powerful Facist governments.
Led by Warlord Regent Bael
First Citizen Regent Baalzebul
Lord Regent Mephistopheles

The Mercantle
The Cartel seek to gain and preserve their power through the control of economies and the flow of capital.
Led by Beurocrat Regent Mammon,
Executive Regent Dispater
Director Regent Leviathin (Levitus)
Lord/Lady Regent Belail and Fierna

The Independents
A faction unto themselves (in the case of Asmodeus), or playing both sides against the middle (in the case of Lillith), the Independents are less a faction as a catagorization for those not belonging to a faction.
Lord of the Serpent Throne, King of All Hells, Lord Asmodeus.
Lady Regent Lillith.

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"Krypter" wrote:
Nice. That's very extensive. I do think it needs more modern and futuristic features though. I didn't read much on Nessus that wouldn't fit into regular planescape. If this is going to be a cyberpunk world then it needs more techno-stuff, methinks.

How d' ya mean?

"TheRoastSlinky" wrote:
Very well conceived! I think you're right saying we a corporate hell is too much of a joke in a serious setting. I like the idea of an almost communistic hell.

Thanks, but one thing:

Kve? Communistic? How? If ya look at Dis, Minauros, Phlegethos, Stygia (especially Stygia), and Malbolge, you can see that Hell is very much a Capatalistic domain.

Or are you saying that you could envision a Communist type Hell?

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Back on topic:

Warlord Regent Bael, of the First

The Warlord Regent of the First Hell appears as a pit fiend of legendary proportions, dressed in a fine uniform of his office, covered in the medals and tropies of his endless war against Demonkind and the Realms Above. He wields a massive Greatsword and a pistole appropriate for his stature.
The Warlord Regent dwells at the heart of the Bronze Citadel. From his central controls room, Bael observes, deploys, and directs the nearly limitless armies put under his command by the Dark Ministry. From this chamber, the Lord of the First directs his legion of spies and agents scattered across the planes.
In the wake of the Astral war between the Humans of the previously unknown Prime of Earth and the Githyanki, Lord Regent Bael siezed upon the technologies and military tactics of these previously insignifigant mortals as the key to his ascension in the ranks of Hell's elite. The Lord of the First was the first Lord to industrialize his layer. The technologicall leaps in weaponry gathered from this Prime could turn a pratically insignifigant Lemure into a lethal threat against even midranking Devils, when coupled with the increadible discipline of his armies caused his metioric rise in power, brushing aside Mephistopheles and taking his place as the second most powerful Devil in the higherarchy of Hell.

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Since we should really be getting some content up...

Deadone, would you like to submit the first post through MyPW as an overview of the plane?

While more detail is nice, and I'm certainly not going to argue against it, we're perfectly allowed to have more than one article for each plane.
For that matter, a planar overview with other articles for more specific/detailed information on layers and locations and so forth seems like a perfectly sensible way to organise information.

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I'm in the process of submitting now.

Executive Regent Dispater, Lord of the Second
The Executive Regent of the Second bears of form of a statuesque man, his flesh an iron grey, his short cut and immaculetly styled hair the color of brushed steel. He dresses in a black, conservative, exquisitly tailored suit, and carries with him a rod of iron, banded with steel. His face is set in a permanent mask of civility and politeness.
From the heart of the Iron Tower, Regent Dispater pulls the stings of the slab rats that race through the endless maze of his city.
The sudden and metioric rise in power of Bael supprised the Lord of the Second. In all his contingencies and plans, he had never anticipated anything quite like this. Thus did Dispater look upon the insignifigant Prime that had crushed the Githyanki, and found there towers of steel and glass, and the infrastructure of schemeing and planing that was buisiness.

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Alpha Beurocrat Regent Mammon, Lord of the Third
The lord of the Third is an impossibly fat pit fiend. He garbs himself if rich cloths and sented oils, and his neck and finger are adorned with rings and necklaces of gold, platinum, and uncountable jewels. His corpulent bulk is at all times surrounded by luxury and exess of the grandest order. From his suite in his massive palace, the First Beurocrat of the Third commands the infinite beurocracy that administers to his domain.
As the Astral War drew to a close, the lord of the Third, ever watchful for a chance to improve his standing in Hell, along with his coffers, set his eyes upon the Prime that had shattered one of the most powerful Astral empires ever. He siezed upon the industries of this world, and marveled at the wealth they could create. When Bael began his rise in power, the Lord of the Third raced to catch up to him, setting his legions of slaves to draining the swamps and making room for the massive factories and industrial complexes the he would need to match the Lord of the First, his greed spurring him onward with a vengence. Soon, Mammon stood third in the ranks of Hell, close on the heels of Bael.

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"deadone" wrote:
I'm in the process of submitting now.

Excellent.

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Excuse me, but according to the comments:[url] /node/], you may all be holding this thing upside down.

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Why isn't this in the Thread of Threads?

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Check the date - it probably just wasn't found till now when he was putting the threads together. We'll probably have to do some nifty editorial work to synchronize the various writeups into one coherant whole.

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I'll add it to the Thread of Threads-thanks for bringing it to my attention.

As for the description, I think that the original poster did an excellent job with Dis and Cania. Avernus is good too, if a bit too high-tech for my liking (and where are the kobolds???). Minaurous is okay, but I would keep the swamp (the analogy of sinking under the weight of one's greed is too good to abandon). The other layers, though, have stylistic issues I am not in agreement with and/or contain serious omissions. Part of the stylistic issues have to do with changes in the direction UPS has taken(strictly modern as opposed to near future). Phlegethos as described here is way too chaotic for Baator. Also, it fails to mention the Lake of Fire, the layer's most prominent geographical feature. Stygia also doesn't feel right-there should be greater emphasis on inhabitants' existing gluttony, not the gluttony imposed by outside messages (more fitting for the seventh layer). It also fails to mention the realm of Set. Malbolge overemphasizes resource extraction and servicing other layers as the main activity-the layer should be able to stand on its own metaphysical hoofs. Maladomini as written here is too boring-the layer is supposed to be a hotbed of intrigue. Also, there's no description of Grenpoli, the city of Diplomacy. And I highly doubt Beezlebub would not have moved out of Malagard by the time of UPS.

As for Nessus, Planescape tried to do its best to keep this layer under an ominous shadow. The way the ninth layer is presented here ruins the whole mystery. Also, the focus should not be on Asmodeus, whose plots stretch over aeons, but the Dark Eight headquartered in Malsheem.

Still, I think that turning the focus of Modern Baator away from a corporate theme is important, and this interpretation does move in the right direction, in that sense.

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I didn't have a high tech settup in mind when I was thinking of Avernus. I was actually thinking more along the lines of an early industrial revolution feel. The assembly lines of the factories have petitioners rather than mechanicle means most of the time. I imagine the comand and control centers as having a tech level equal to that of the modern day U.S. military. I wasn't really aware that kobolds were really important to Avernus, but you can assume that they're there, slaving along with the lemurs and soul shells.
I drained Minauros to signify a slight change in the way greed is viewed by its inhabitants. No longer do you sink under the weight of your own greed, but instead you are crushed under the weight of your superior's greed.
On Phlegatos and Stygia, I agree. My idea for these two was the foggiest. I'm still not sure how to handel 'em. For Phlegatos, I feel that it may seem to be chaotic, but if you scratch the surface you will find orderly, structured malice in the exploitation of those less fortunate. The pimps and pushers are all part of a greater organization that eventually all leads to the top. As for the lake of fire, any suggestions?
As for Stygia, well, my views are heavily influence by the Dicefreaks presentation of Leviathin (Levitus). Basically, Stygia offers those under its thrall the chance to abandon their wills, the ability to delude themselves into believing that its not their fault, that their evil is not their own, ect. Its the evil of "I was just following orders", refined. Now, if you have any ideas on how to present that differently (I don't particularly like the way I desgined it), I'm interested.
Malboge isn't about resource extraction, its about dominating nature, and exploiting it for your own advancement. The main activity of the layer is tearing the still beating heart of the earth out for your own ends. Ability to make a pretty penny doing so is just gravey.
Maladomini has changed for the same reason Minauros changed. They layer's lord has a new perspective on perfection. The intruege of the old days is seen as an imperfection, a flaw, something that detracts from the perfect whole. As for Grenpoli, oops.
As for Nessus, maybe I went a bit overboard. However, I view the Dark Eight as extensions of Asmodeus's will. Pawns and voices who think they have power, but in reality just execute the Lord of Hell's will.

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'deadone' wrote:
I didn't have a high tech settup in mind when I was thinking of Avernus. I was actually thinking more along the lines of an early industrial revolution feel. The assembly lines of the factories have petitioners rather than mechanicle means most of the time. I imagine the comand and control centers as having a tech level equal to that of the modern day U.S. military. I wasn't really aware that kobolds were really important to Avernus, but you can assume that they're there, slaving along with the lemurs and soul shells.

Okay, I get what your saying about the command center. The Kobolds, though was a reference to the fact that their patron deity, Kurtulmak, makes his kip on Avernus. Since they have become something of a fan-favorite, it would be criminal to leave them out.

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I drained Minauros to signify a slight change in the way greed is viewed by its inhabitants. No longer do you sink under the weight of your own greed, but instead you are crushed under the weight of your superior's greed.

Well, the view of the inhabitants is less important than the view of the rest of the Multiverse. Souls that come to Minauros typically were consumed by greed, not necessarily those who were victimized by greed.

Besides, Mammon was just dying to take his new personal luxery liner for a spin Smiling

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For Phlegatos, I feel that it may seem to be chaotic, but if you scratch the surface you will find orderly, structured malice in the exploitation of those less fortunate. The pimps and pushers are all part of a greater organization that eventually all leads to the top. As for the lake of fire, any suggestions?

That's a good idea, but I don't think that it should be the entire layer-it should be applied to just Abriymoch. The rest of the layer, though, I think should simply be left the way it is, with some drug farms to allow a new avenue of control through bodily needs.

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As for Stygia, well, my views are heavily influence by the Dicefreaks presentation of Leviathin (Levitus). Basically, Stygia offers those under its thrall the chance to abandon their wills, the ability to delude themselves into believing that its not their fault, that their evil is not their own, ect. Its the evil of "I was just following orders", refined. Now, if you have any ideas on how to present that differently (I don't particularly like the way I desgined it), I'm interested.

I could see a bit of Dicefreaks in your design. One point that I think you missed in a few cases, however, was the Lord-Regents of Baator were frequently victims of the Perdition they shape. In the case of Stygia, Leviathan's open obsession with ruling all of Baator carries down to the rest of the layer. Everyone is out to advance himself-but they are so consumed by their goal to do so (the sin of gluttony), their nature becomes rather predictable.

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Malboge isn't about resource extraction, its about dominating nature, and exploiting it for your own advancement. The main activity of the layer is tearing the still beating heart of the earth out for your own ends. Ability to make a pretty penny doing so is just gravey.

Good argument-I would still like to incorperate genetic manipulation into this layer.

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Maladomini has changed for the same reason Minauros changed. They layer's lord has a new perspective on perfection. The intruege of the old days is seen as an imperfection, a flaw, something that detracts from the perfect whole.

The problem I see here, and something that The Gates of Hell makes clear, is that Beezlebub is not perfect. This is only an arrogant assumption that he holds. Again, as powerful as deities and cosmic entities are, their view of themselves is less important than the views of the rest of the Multiverse (belief=power). Certainly, the "Big Brother" aspect of Maladomini is important, but even in Baator, it can only go so far; after all, Baator ultimately rewards those who have the cunning to work the system to their advantage.

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As for Nessus, maybe I went a bit overboard. However, I view the Dark Eight as extensions of Asmodeus's will. Pawns and voices who think they have power, but in reality just execute the Lord of Hell's will.

If the Dark Eight are only the Overlord's pawns, then the PCs are less than nothing next to him. Normal PCs and even most epic PCs wouldn't stand a chance of encountering him in any meaningful way. On the other hand, PCs can have meaningful encounters with the plots of the Dark Eight-they might not be able to take them head-to-head, but they can be a thorn in their side.

Thanks for replying to my criticism by the way. I wasn't sure you were still active in this project.

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I'm a bit of a kobold fan myself, just not a big Kurtulmak fan. I've added the lord of Kobold's domain to Avernus. It borrows heavily on my interpretation of Kobolds, so it probably resembles the traditional view very faintly (as the saying goes in my campaign setting regarding Kobolds: "See a horde, draw your sword. See but one, it's time to run.")

A counter-counter argument for Minauros: greed no longer is about surrounding yourself with wealth and riches, but is about hungering for what those above you have. At the bottom it is an all consuming despair, for the lowest have next to no chance to gain anything. In the middle it is a frenzied scabble to depose those above you and to drain your peers for your own advancement. At the top, it is a crushing ennui coupled with crippling fear, for while there is nothing left to aquire, you can feel your ritches and power being leeched away from you by those below and you teeter on the edge of destruction. Its the ennui and despair of those at the top that drained the swamps. For as long as Minauros sank, there was reason to build up, if only to escape being consumed. Now, there is no reason to build higher. This also has the added benefit of making those on the top more vicious in their supression of those below.

Phlegatos: How do you like the new version?

Stygia: Any suggestions on how to handle that?

Malboge: I think genetic manipulation is the shape of the near future Malboge, rather than the modern Malboge. It may be begining to take hold, most likely in the forbidden mine sites (perhapse, in the next age of Hell, it will be Malboge that takes the lead from Avernus, with its Baatezu/Ancient Baatorian hybrids)...

Maladomini: I've revised it slightly.

Nessus: Hmmm... here's a tentative revision.

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I'm glad you took some of my suggestions, and your arguments with regards to Minauros and Malbolge are well made.

With regards to Kruk's realm, remember that Kobolds are ingenious and nefearious trapmakers as well-be sure to include that aspect into their realm.

Be sure to include mention of the Lake of Fire-its not necessary for everything to be modernized, but the Lake is important enough in Baatezu lore that it would need mentioning. Also, with Gazra relocated to Elysium, feel free to create a new Pit Fiend governor for the city.

Stygia I'll give you a hand with a bit later on. Right now my energies are being directed at this kip called Sigil. If anyone else has some thoughts on the fifth layer (including the realm of Set), feel free to post them.

The revision to Maladomini is perfect, since now it sounds like a place that is equally Evil as it is Lawful.

Nessus is good-I think the final draft for the core release will keep the true nature of Asmodeus a mystery, but a detailed look into Modern Baator can reveal the truth.

Overall, I think this is an excellent job. All that's missing is a summary section of the Plane as a whole.

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Regarding Set's realm, Levistus was shrinking it. In time, it seems logical that he'd eventually succeed in destroying it. This could leave Set wandering Stygia, or perhaps sharing a realm with another Egyptian power.

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Alternatively, the events of the Pantheon War gave Set an opportunity to turn back Levistus and solidify his realm.

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I was just wondering, but just how was Minauros drained of its acid swamps?

Also, the domain of Kurtulmak dosn't sound very modern to me. Maybe if it was an underground bunker, that could work.

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'Ulden Throatbane' wrote:
Alternatively, the events of the Pantheon War gave Set an opportunity to turn back Levistus and solidify his realm.

That seems an equally acceptable option. Anybody else have opinions on the matter?

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Set's realm is dead and gone, crushed by Leviathin, and Set has been cast out in shame.
...
Then again, I tend to side with cosmic entities over gods... There's something perverse in me that smiles very broadly when a god gets put in their place.

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I hate to do this, deadone, but I'm going to have to disapprove of that decision. Mostly because, between Ragnorak and the aftermath of the Pantheon War, the gods in general will be in a weaker position vis-a-vis Cosmic entities (who benifit tremendously from the rise of monotheistic faiths on the primes). Depending on how I decide to end the Pantheon War (one scenario really skewers the Greeks), I'm going to be very careful about tightening the screws even further. It'll be bad enough that I'm going to be pelted with lightning-I don't wan't to be mauled by savage crocodiles as well Laughing out loud

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'Ulden Throatbane' wrote:
I hate to do this, deadone, but I'm going to have to disapprove of that decision. Mostly because, between Ragnorak and the aftermath of the Pantheon War, the gods in general will be in a weaker position vis-a-vis Cosmic entities (who benifit tremendously from the rise of monotheistic faiths on the primes).

So, what you're saying is that gods are weaker, cosmic entities are stronger, but the conflict between a god and CsE comes out in the god's favour?

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'Bob the Efreet' wrote:
'Ulden Throatbane' wrote:
I hate to do this, deadone, but I'm going to have to disapprove of that decision. Mostly because, between Ragnorak and the aftermath of the Pantheon War, the gods in general will be in a weaker position vis-a-vis Cosmic entities (who benifit tremendously from the rise of monotheistic faiths on the primes).

So, what you're saying is that gods are weaker, cosmic entities are stronger, but the conflict between a god and CsE comes out in the god's favour?

That's not what I meant. I'm just saying that Set getting evicted from Stygia isn't necessarily the outcome I'd prefer.

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So, what you're saying is that gods are weaker, cosmic entities are stronger, but the conflict between a god and CsE comes out in the god's favour?

Why not? Adventurers regularly kill dragons, why can't gods occasionally triumph against a cosmic entity?

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I like Set enough that I'd like to see him stick around in some way or another. He's a good diety to have around.

I would actually like to see that intrigue/conflict get played as a current activity as opposed to a done deal, that just lends more to ideas for plot hooks for ideas in my book.

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