Malbolge

Submitted by Iavas on Tue, 2007-02-27 00:22

RPG Discussion

I finally got FCII, and while I haven't read all of it, I did make sure to skip down to the Malbolge section to see what all the commotion was about. That prompted me to make this poll.

Do you accept (or incorporate into your campaign) the changes to the sixth layer of Baator that were described, if not explained, in Fiendish Codex II - Tyrants of the Nine Hells? If you do, what is your explanation for them? If not, what bothers you most? If you're not sure, which parts do you like or dislike, and do be sure not to get your shirt caught on the fence.

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Wed, 2008-07-16 21:14

BlackDaggr

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Personally, I don't mind

Personally, I don't mind the reshaping of Malbolge. Before, it seemed to be a layer that was poorly thought out, as if the original designer was running out of ideas. After all, the idea of an infinitely sloped plane is just next door in Gehenna.

In addition, I never liked the Hag Countess as a power player in the hells. She always did seem like a "placeholder" - again, it seemed the creators had run out of ideas to make her unique.

As far as who is responsible, I figure that Asmodeus could have orchestrated the whole thing himself, or used some sort of power pact. He could have even duped a group of adventurers to bring him the components he needed. Perhaps Cegilune helped (nice idea).

There is already evidence that Asmodeus can force a devil to change its truename. Asmodeus could have simply changed the Hag Countess' true name to "Malbolge". Heh...

Tue, 2007-02-27 00:32

Iavas

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Huh, it seems the poll options are alphabetized... and here I thought I accidentally showed favouritism to my choice by subconciously making it first.

Personally I dislike the changes. While I'm all for Glasya's increased importance, it really should have been better explained. Asmodeus does not do anything lightly, especially trusting his daughter. Also, such a plane shattering event as the death of an archfiend and a complete redecoration of a planar layer really deserves its own adventure. All it got was a few short paragraphs that vaguely hinted at a coup. Such mysterious nothingness puts the writers of Lost to shame. Also, none of the Archfiends have such total control over the layers over which they rule that they could deform the entire infinity thereof at a whim. Even deities have finite realms, so Glasya shouldn't have been able to abolish the mountainous nature of her new home with a grin and a wink. Overall, while I'm not against the idea of a change in power, it should have been well described, with loads of potential PC involvement, and followed at least some of the rules unless given a reason not to.

Tue, 2007-02-27 14:43

(Reply to #2) #4

Bob the Efreet

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'Iavas' wrote:

Also, none of the Archfiends have such total control over the layers over which they rule that they could deform the entire infinity thereof at a whim.

Don't they? I don't have FC2 to reference, but the demon lords have the power of lesser deities to affect their home layer. Why wouldn't Lords of the Nine have the same?

Also, even if the lesser Lords don't, Asmodeus definitely has the power to do so.

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Tue, 2007-02-27 15:37

(Reply to #3) #5

ripvanwormer

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'Iavas' wrote:

Also, none of the Archfiends have such total control over the layers over which they rule that they could deform the entire infinity thereof at a whim.

Planar lords are more powerful than deities in that respect. Perhaps they cannot change the landscape on a whim (although Fraz-Urb'luu certainly could at his height of power), but I say they can reshape the infinity they control with enough exertion of power. The book doesn't say it was easy for Glasya, or even that she was the one responsible.

My own theory about the reshaping of Malbolge is that the Hag Countess herself was responsible for it - Guide to Hell said her consuming interest was becoming a true goddess, and I think it was experiments in that direction that caused her transformation. We know night hags have some ability at creating radical metamorphoses in outsiders, as the altraloths demonstrate. Glasya just took advantage of the hag's self-made disaster, arriving at the right time to claim control in the confusion. Perhaps Asmodeus had nothing to do with it at all, and only grudgingly accepted his "daughter"'s new rank for the time being, having to admit that her timing, if nothing else, was exquisite.

Tue, 2007-02-27 16:32

(Reply to #4) #6

Iavas

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I like that theory, rip. Makes me wonder if there's a horrible new goddess on the planes. I'm not too fond of the part about Amosdeus grudginly admitting being one-upped. Sure, he might have about a hundred different purposes for doing so, but as the Lord of Nessus, I doubt he would concoct plans that make him seem weak or defeated so soon after the Reckoning.

I wasn't aware that planar lords had full control over their layers as such. All examples I can think of point to them holding power through politics or might, but without the possibility of directly changing the nature of the layer except in a limited area, much like a power. There are too many examples of even the Lord of the Nine having constant problems with certain aspects of their layers without the ability to change them at a whim. Not even including fiery Mephistopholes in his icy plane or Mammon's sinking cities, which can be attributed to guile or intentional punishment for petitioners, why would the Nine would not uproot the very foundations of their layers to rid them of the enemies hiding within, such as whatever lurks in the caves under Malbolge? Plus, while I can see planar lords drawing power from the layers they control, what logical reason do they have for controlling the layers? Why could not anybody with a strong enough willpower just wrest that control away from them? Somebody like, say, a power? If it's the belief of everybody that they rule that layer, then how exactly did Glasya get all that belief so quickly after the Hag Countess' death?

It's possible, what with the planes being infinite and all, but WotC lack of explanation is equivalent to saying: Desire profit -> ______ -> profit. Great...

Tue, 2007-02-27 20:56

(Reply to #5) #7

Azriael

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'Iavas' wrote:

Seconded

Tanar'ri Lords are quite a differant in that their plane is innately mutable given sufficient force of will. Additionally FC I refers to Abyssal lords bonding to their layers in a way which is not duplicated by other beings.

The Lords of the Nine are still subject to overriding laws which they can manipulate and twist but cannot break outright. As Iavas rightly says their power comes from/is manifested in their manipulation and domination of the 'hearts & minds' of their layers populance - something they seem rather better at than their Tanar'ric counterparts who simply rule by fear.

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Fri, 2007-03-09 18:12

(Reply to #6) #8

Alder_Fiter_Galaz

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'ripvanwormer' wrote:

Nice theory Ripper, except for the Asmodeus part.

Surely Asmodeus gains something (or someone) with the reshaping of Malbolge. I bet that Barneyloths, errr Barnaloths gains something also. I think they can have the power to reshape Malbolge.

(eh its Malebolge o Malbolge?)

Sat, 2007-03-10 12:08

(Reply to #7) #9

Iavas

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What are you hinting Asmodeus would gain, Alder?

Also, the Baernaloths, even the most active of them (the Demented), do not seem to be the sort of fellows that would directly intefere in Hellish politics. Thus, even if they do have the power to utterly reshape a layer (a tricky thing, I'm sure, even for them), I doubt they would do so. Their machinations are of a greater scope, and far less noticeable.

Sat, 2007-03-10 13:59

(Reply to #8) #10

Krypter

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'Iavas' wrote:

It's possible, what with the planes being infinite and all, but WotC lack of explanation is equivalent to saying: Desire profit -> ______ -> profit. Great...

I like the change, but it is rather unexplained and I find it astounding that Asmodeus could exert such control over all the Nine Hells that he could reshape entire layers at will. Rip's explanation is better. My own preference would be to have many other divine powers, such as Set and even some of the LG powers, involved in Baatoran politics, which could lead to the changes described. As Alder said the involvement of the baernaloths cannot be excluded.

Sat, 2007-03-10 15:51

(Reply to #9) #11

Sucros

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Celigune wouldn't likely take too well to having a competitor for hag goddess, so the violent manner of the Hag Countess's "death" could be a ploy to hide her progressing ascension from the godess

Sun, 2007-03-18 12:34

(Reply to #10) #12

Iavas

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After some thinking about it while reading FC2, I've come up with a pretty nifty, in my own overwrought self-opinion, way to keep the current change without completely changing Malbolge. The 3.5e Baator has finite layers, but all of us true Planescape enthusiasts know that the layers are, in fact, infinite. Thus, when the Hag Countess died, she flattened a finite area of the plane and embedded it with her bloated deadish form. This is where Glasya rules from. However, the rest of the infinite plane is still as sloped and mountainous as ever. Thoughts?

Sat, 2007-03-24 15:06

(Reply to #11) #13

Duckluck

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I figured it out! The Hag Countess isn't really dead, and Asmodeus didn't really let Glasya take over the layer (although she thinks he did). It's a trap! Not for Glasya -- that would be too simple and wouldn't make a lot of sense. No, the new Duchess of Malbolge is just a lure -- bait for an even bigger fish? Who, you ask? Moloch!

Think about it, what does Moloch want more than anything? To take Malbolge back and get revenge on Asmodeus. Glasya is currently in the weakest position of any of the Lords of the Nine (even Bel is more secure), has exactly what Moloch wants for himself, and, as the daughter of Asmodeus, is the perfect target for Moloch's vengeance. It's too perfect not to be a trap, but it's still a trap Moloch probably won't see coming.

Here's how Asmodeus thinks it's going to play out. Moloch takes that bait and arrives in Malbolge with a massive army, then he crushes Glasya's army beneath his feet and forces her to surrender or die (either way, Asmodeus wins). Then, just when Moloch thinks he's achieved victory, the Hag Countess returns from the "dead" and leads a massive army against Moloch's weakened force. Moloch's forces are crushed and the renegade Duke himself is killed. Two of Asmodeus' greatest threats are dealt with, and a powerful message will be sent to the other Lords of the Nine, about what happens to those who act against him. That's how he thinks it's going to play out.

This is what I picture actually happening (and this would make a great extended high level adventure, by the way). Moloch attacks Malbolge with a massive force, and Glasya immediately betrays Asmodeus and joins his camp. The Hag Countess attacks, but even after being reinforced by Asmodeus' reserves in Nessus (who, evidentally, were waiting for just such a moment), the battle turns into a bloody slog resulting in massive casualties on both sides. While the other Baatezu lords watch from the sidelines, everything starts to go wrong. As blood fills the crags and chasms of Malbolge like really gross butter on an unspeakably evil english muffin, the true masters of the layer begin to emerge. From the depths of the layer, the Ancient Baatorians rise from their long slumber and destroy the Baatezu armies like a cat hunting mice. Glasya and Moloch (who had already been losing the battle with the hag) don't even think twice before fleeing to Acheron, leaving most of their army to die in the process. The Hag Countess meanwhile, tries futily to hold the layer, but she is out-maneuvered from the start and she and her soldiers are quickly consumed.

Any thoughts as to what Asmodeus does next?

Sat, 2007-03-24 16:41

(Reply to #12) #14

Iavas

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Dang, Duckluck. It all seemed so perfect until the Clue-like "Here's what really happened" bit. I like Asmodeus' devilish double-cross of his daughter and Moloch in one fell swoop, but I hope you don't mind if I tear into your idea a little.

The Hag Countess' triumphant return is iffy. Firstly, she is not Baatezu, and I do not see Asmodeus supporting her for too long. After she defeats Moloch for good, perhaps turning him into a vestige, I can really see Asmodeus betraying her as well in a triple-cross. Whether he sets up Glasya as the final ruler (for now) or some other devil is up for grabs. Secondly, why the overly-spectacular death for the Countess in the first place? I can see it being caused by her turning into a goddess at last or finding some secret which she could not handle. I do not like the idea of either Asmodeus or Glasya being directly responsible for her going "POP", and I'm having some trouble wrapping my belief-glands around the idea of it all being a grandiose illusion.

As for the "How it will really play out" bit, well it seems too apocalyptic for me. The Ancient Baatorians rising up for such a comparatively minor battle makes no sense. After all, they're hibernating, let them sleep. They serve a far better purpose as basically stat-less (at least in the mature form) mysterious boogeymen that even Baatezu are afraid of. When they come out into the light, they lose a good bit of their power, even if they have the stats to kick Asmodeus' hellish behind. Finally, I highly doubt that Asmodeus is so thick as to let his little girl trick daddy by simply switching sides. He's bound to see it coming just as she is bound to do it, and he is not doubt relying on it.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

If you don't mind my grabbing and running with your idea, here's my modification thereof:

Glasya thinks that Asmodeus finally trusts her and that she is the final ruler of the layer. Asmodeus, however, is testing her while using her for his own purposes. While he is not sure why the Countess went "POP", he knows that she has truly passed on from her Outsider status. Whether she is dead or deified really does not bother him that much. He'll handle her if she reappears, but for now he senses that the layer is vacated of a powerful ruler. Glasya has not yet had the time to fully acclimate herself to the layer (or let the layer acclimate itself to her), and he knows that many more powerful banished devils will jump at the chance to take the layer.

Moloch strikes first, leading a substantial army into Malbolge and making his way up the slope to the Hag Plateau. Asmodeus' primary concern, aside from finally granting the layer to the one he planned to all along, is to see Glasya's response. Just as her army meets Molochs, Baalzebul's army emerges from the next layer to lay waste to both armies. However, due to poor informants (now deceased), which were carefully maniuplated by Asmodeus, the army arrives too early for Glasya's and Moloch's troops to thoroughly destroy each other. Thus, they team up against the more powerful force of Baalzebul. Asmodeus sees this as weakness on Glasya's part, thus his test is finished. The combined forces beat back Baalzebul's attempt with heavy losses. Just as they are about to go double or nothing at each other's throats once again, Nergal, informed by Asmodeus, arrives to destroy both armies and Moloch. He keeps Glasya alive at Asmodeus' will, but she is now set up as his underling (the better to train her in proper devilish maneuverings, thinks Asmodeus). Now, Nergal is satisfied, Moloch is gone (or a vestige), and Glasya is not in power to plot against her father just yet. The layer is secure, for now, until Glasya learns enough to overthrow Nergal.

What do you think?

EDIT: Things to think about include where Moloch and Nergal got their armies, how they managed to get out of Avernus, and how can we work in PC interaction into the entire ordeal.

Sat, 2007-03-24 18:37

(Reply to #13) #15

Duckluck

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I like leaving Nergal as a neutral party for the moment, especially because Asmodeus kicked him out in the first place and isn't going to want him back (Plus this way we can save him for later). As for the Hag Countess, I can't see her being powerful enough to ascend, nor weak enough to have died popping. Instead, I see it as a ruse, an illusion from one of the greatest tricksters on the planes (remember, this is the same Hag Countess who would launch surprise inspections on her underlings and have no one realize it until they were all fired). She may not be a Baatezu, but I think that's why Asmodeus like her, she will never be a direct threat to his rule. But you're, right Asmodeus would expect Glasya to betray him, the Ancient Baatorians are a little bit much to bring out without fanfare, and Nergal deserves the last laugh. Check out my super-duper revision! Caution, much epicness follows.

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The Hag Countess fakes her death (as per Asmodeus' orders) and then starts secretly raising an army and hiding it on Malbolge. Glasya takes over (or thinks she does, anyway) and Moloch immediately starts scheming. Using the army he's been building up for centuries, along with thousands of Yugoloth mercenaries, he invades Malbolge and defeats Glasya before the battle even starts. The two team up but wind up being hardpressed when the Hag Countess returns with the second largest active Baatezu army in the Planes (the largest being the one fighting the Blood War). Moloch's forces dig in and hard fighting ensues leaving millions dead while the two fiendish armies clash, Glasya slips away and hatches a plan. Glasya sneaks into Mount Celestia, and convinces a number of powerful Archons to intercede on Malbolge.

The Archons know they are being manipulated, but nevertheless jump at the opportunity to take the Baatezu down a peg. They start with Glasya. While Glasya is busy trying to gain the upper hand, the Celestials surprise her and imprison her *somewhere* where she won't escape (at least not for a while), then they mobilize their forces to purify Malbolge. Greater errors are seldom made. As the Archons mobilize, Malbolge beomes a battleground for the Blood as Tanar'ri break through the defences in Stygia (weakened by the transfer of troops to the Malbolge front) and hurtle down the pit to hit the Hag's forces from behind. By the time the Archons arrive, the whole layer is a literal bloodbath, and they proceed to mop up what's left, and that's when things get even uglier.

The arrival of Good and Chaotic influences on their layer is enough to cause the Ancient Baatorians to stir from their slumber the last reports from people fleeing the slaughter are of the earth shaking horribly and great roars eminating from beneath the surface and a cloud of doom closing in, and then things go silent. where before thousands had been fleeing the layer, now none emerge and those sent to investigate never report back. Diviners who scry on the layer go mad and spend the rest of their days as gibbering husks. Then suddenly, the portals work again, but people don't like what they find.

Malbolge doesn't have "ground" anymore, but it still has geography, it's mountains are heaps of skulls, its lakes are pools of blood, and its plains are endless piles of rotting flesh. Atop a massive pile of heads, right where Glasya's palace had once stood is Moloch's grinning head, and the only evidence that the Ancient Baatorians had ever risen, is the bit of sickly white worm-flesh in his teeth. Nothing on the layer is left alive. No one sane wants to make a play for Malbolge after that, so when Nergal returns and announces he is the new ruler of the layer, the other Baatezu are frankly releaved.

What do you think? Too epic?

Sat, 2007-03-24 20:45

(Reply to #14) #16

Iavas

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Ooh, you weren't kidding . It really is a matter of taste. I personally prefer less epic campaigns and scenarios. Asmodeus' continued use for the Hag Countess could go either way, and it should go whichever direction best suits the situation. However, I was not aware that it was Asmodeus himself that kicked Nergal out. I thought he was simply beaten to the punch by Baalzebul and Moloch. So, on that note, I do agree that it would take some reason to get Nergal back in. Also, I really like saying Nergal... gurglegurgle. *ahem* Sorry.

Anyway, here are some things to ponder given your updated view of events:

¤ What does Asmodeus plan to accomplish with this ruse? Surely he did not have any threats or problems coming from the banished Moloch. Glasya too was quite happy with her position as queen of Erynies. He only usually pulls this sort of stuff when he needs to take people down a notch, and as it stands, none of the players that lose by his plan are too powerful to begin with. (That, along with his initial desire to dominate the sixth layer when its first lord was devoured, was the reason I put Baalzebul into the equation in the first place).
¤ How does Moloch get the ability to leave Avernus (as I'm pretty sure none of the banished Baatezu can) while Nergal does not? PC's duped to help out, perhaps?
¤ Why do Glasya and Moloch team up without any fighting and before an outside threat comes in?
¤ What in Baator could Glasya's plan be that would in any way profit from the Celestial's incursion.
¤ Why would the Celestials, who have learned their lessons of non-interference more than once and have proven themselves, as a majority, more than happy to leave the fiends to their intrapersonal squabbles, suddenly decide to get voluntarily duped by none other than the daughter of Asmodeus himself (taking her prisoner, even) and go join bloody combat. Wouldn't they much prefer to let the devils weaken themselves, not drawing their attention, especially if the battle has little chance of spilling over into any other planes?

As for the rest, particularly the part about the Ancient Baatorians rising and destroying everything in bloody sight... well, I'm against it. Personal preference, yes, but there it is. Though in this instance they still remain mysterious (kudos on working that one out, by the way), the destruction, or reconstruction as the case may be, of an entire layer would probably cause a bit more of attempted rebuttal from the powers that be (Baatezu) than crapping their knickers and abandoning the layer to the previously-banished oozy lion-toad (Nergal). ... gurglegurgle.

I could be productive and suggest answers to the questions I posed above, but since it is getting a wee bit late here and I have some work to do tomorrow morning, I shall give you first dibs to share your thoughts. Don't hate me for it.

Sat, 2007-03-24 23:27

(Reply to #15) #17

Duckluck

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'Iavas' wrote:

Ooh, you weren't kidding

. It really is a matter of taste. I personally prefer less epic campaigns and scenarios. Asmodeus' continued use for the Hag Countess could go either way, and it should go whichever direction best suits the situation. However, I was not aware that it was Asmodeus himself that kicked Nergal out. I thought he was simply beaten to the punch by Baalzebul and Moloch. So, on that note, I do agree that it would take some reason to get Nergal back in. Also, I really like [saying Nergal... gurglegurgle. *ahem* Sorry.

Sorry, I dont' know a lot about Nergal to be honest, I likely got my facts wrong.

Quote:

Anyway, here are some things to ponder given your updated view of events:

Moloch is more of a threat than he first appears. He controls a fairly sizable band of disaffected Baatezu, he has been around so long that he knows the way the Hells work better than most of the other Baatezu lords (not as well as Dispater, Mephistopheles, or Asmodeus, maybe, but far better than upstarts like Glasya or the Hag Countess), and (I imagine) he is physically more powerful than most of the newer Baatezu lords. Asmodeus knows that, given enough time, and enough allies, Moloch could become strong enough to take on any of his Dukes or challenge him directly. Which is why Asmodeus is luring Moloch out now so he can deal with him on his terms, rather than waiting for Moloch to come to him.

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¤ How does Moloch get the ability to leave Avernus (as I'm pretty sure none of the banished Baatezu can) while Nergal does not? PC's duped to help out, perhaps?

They haven't always been trapped on Avernus. Where does it say they can't leave at all? Sorry, another thing I'm not totally up on.

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¤ Why do Glasya and Moloch team up without any fighting and before an outside threat comes in?

Because Glasya would surely lose a direct confrontation with Moloch, and this way she gets a chance to be on (what she assumes to be) the winning team. Plus she's stupidly ambitious and actually thinks they can take on Asmodeus.

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¤ What in Baator could Glasya's plan be that would in any way profit from the Celestial's incursion.

She sees it as a chance to get revenge on Moloch and the Countess, and hopefully reclaim Malbolge when the smoke clears. Plus she's just spiteful like that.

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¤ Why would the Celestials, who have learned their lessons of non-interference more than once and have proven themselves, as a majority, more than happy to leave the fiends to their intrapersonal squabbles, suddenly decide to get voluntarily duped by none other than the daughter of Asmodeus himself (taking her prisoner, even) and go join bloody combat. Wouldn't they much prefer to let the devils weaken themselves, not drawing their attention, especially if the battle has little chance of spilling over into any other planes?

These ones wouldn't be the majority but a radical extreme, but you're right, I don't really need the Celestials to show up in Malbolge. Instead maybe they should just imprison Glasya and leave the Baatezu alone. Let the Tanar'ri do the Baatorian angering.

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Not if the Baatezu have no idea what in Hell (sorry, bad pun) is going on. Think about it, millions, possibly even billions, dead with no survivors and no one can even find the supposed culprits. Add to that the fact that everyone knows that those responsible could probably just as easilly do it again, and you have the recipe for a no-mans land. And then there's the fact that the layer no longer has any natural resources to speak of, and all the souls and petitioners have been killed or consumed. Basically, everything that makes owning a layer of Baator appealing has been stripped away, and all that's left is an empty pile of corpses. It makes sense that someone desperate like Nergal would be the first one to make a grab for power.

Quote:

Nah, we're cool.

Sun, 2007-03-25 09:49

(Reply to #16) #18

Iavas

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I think we are nearing an accord.

'Duckluck' wrote:

Sorry, I dont' know a lot about Nergal to be honest, I likely got my facts wrong.

I'm no expert on him either, so it would behoove us to look that up. Anyone have Dragon #75?

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Okay, maybe. Although I still see him as less of a threat than those devils currently in power. Perhaps, along with getting rid of Moloch, one of Asmodeus' goals is to have both Baalzebul and Mephistopholes try to set their own followers up as the new ruler, wiping out Moloch's army and then each others'. The Hag Countess can then clean up and take Glasya as her underling, giving her a well-deserved dose of "you got served". That is all, if everything goes to plan, which it won't.

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They haven't always been trapped on Avernus. Where does it say they can't leave at all? Sorry, another thing I'm not totally up on.

According to Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells (page 37, Planar Commitment sidebar), any Lord of the Nine can impose the extraordinary planar commitment trait, which effectively traps banished lords despite their full retainment of powers, on Avernus. Any ability to teleport out will simply move the offending devil 100 miles in a random direction. Whether Nergal or Moloch are so entrapped is not mentioned, nor do I know if there was anything of the sort in 2e or Dragon sources. However, if their being so does not contradict anything of note, then it would allow a sizeable bit of PC involvement. The trapping effect could be achieved through having the Yugoloths modify Maeldur Et Kavurik's instructions at the Lord of the Nine's behest. Moloch, having been such a Lord however shortly, would know this. Getting the PC's to get the Yugoloths to modify the instructions in Moloch's favor seems just right for a Planescape campaign. After all, the 'loths are mercenaries.

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Which makes sense for Glasya, I agree, but why does Moloch team up? He went there to depose her in the first place. Given my little blurb about Baalzebul and Mephistopholes, I think their presence would be more than enough to have the two smaller armies combine in self-defense. Glasya could then try to betray Moloch and fail. Leading us to...

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She sees it as a chance to get revenge on Moloch and the Countess, and hopefully reclaim Malbolge when the smoke clears. Plus she's just spiteful like that.

I doubt that even Glasya is stupid enough to beseech the archons for direct belligerent intervention. If she does go to the celestials, she would either go heavily disguised or, more likely, send somebody else (do I smell another PC dupe?). Rather than getting them to come and fight, which she knows that they won't, she could try to gain some ace up her sleeve to end up on top after the smoke clears. The Celestials see through it and give her a rather entrapping artifact. The PC's end up with said artifact, and thus draw the ire of Asmodeus and attempt to give it back to the Celestials, who no longer want anything to do with it and send the PC's to a certain pocketed layer of Pandemonium otherwise known as "the waste-basket".

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See above. They know that trapping Glasya will piss of Asmodeus, but only, as you said, an extremist group of celestials (Asuras, perhaps?) secretly goes through with the plan. The greater whole of the race is against any inteference whatsoever. This is beginning to sound a bit like that whole "Peace War" thread that was so active a while ago but now seems somewhat tuckered out. Still, I'd rather not have more infighting in the celestial ranks than necessary, so have the extremists send the PC's to capture Glasya in the first place, then have the majority find out and reprimand the extremist group and then send the PC's to dispose of the evidence.

Quote:

Yeah, okay. Have the PC's stick around to see the very beginning of the Ancient Baatorians rising (quakes, roars, Baatezu pooing themselves) before making a hasty retreat through the nearest and last active portal with a kindly lantern archon in a funny hat saying "Going up?". Moloch and his forces are dead, as is the Hag Countess (or so we assume) and her army. Glasya is captured, while Baalzebul and Mephistopholes are down a good portion of their troops (thus weakening them as Asmodeus originally planned, albeit in a different manner). Nergal gets his lifelong dream, but is now the weakest of the Lords of the Nine. Thankfully, nobody wants to tangle in Malbolge, so he can slowly build up his power base. The layer itself is still as hilly as ever, but between the boulders, the ground is now strewn with blood and bone (sometimes very sharp bone, making falling down the slope a much more dangerous proposition). Why did the Baatorians come out in the first place? Surely it couldn't have been the Tanar'ri horde just entering the fray. How long did the Hag Countess spend in the tunnels under Malbolge, and what evil pacts did she make? Tune in next time... Tum tum TUMS!

Quote:

Nah, we're cool.

... gurglegurgle.

Sun, 2007-03-25 11:52

(Reply to #17) #19

Duckluck

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Factor

Joined: 2006-10-10

Malbolge

I think we've got something good here. Now I guess it's time to work out how we get the PCs involved.

Something like this maybe?

Prologue: While traveling Avernus, the PCs stumble upon Moloch's camp. They get ambushed by Baatezu and brought to Moloch. Moloch then entraps them with special cursed items that employ a powerful Geas (or something similar) forcing them to travel to Gehenna and enlist the help of the Yugoloths in freeing Moloch and raising an army for him.

Part one: The PCs fight their way through a portal to Gehenna and then make their way across the plane, having run-ins with the Yugoloths on the way. Eventually, the PCs reach the Yugoloth lord in question (not sure which one is best) and get him to spring Moloch out, but first the 'loth wants them to do him a favor.

Part two: The Yugoloth sends the PCs to deliver a powerful entraping artifact called the Hand of Fate, to our group of renegade Archons. It may look like the 'loths are predicting the future, but actually they are just doing what they do best, crafting contingencies. The PCs make it to Celestia and have to talk (or fight) their way past the guards in order to deliver the Hand of Fate to its intended owners. After that, the Yugoloth lord agrees to help Moloch and sends them back to Avernus to tell him.

Part three: Moloch is pleased, but this time, he sends the PCs to clear out a keep with a portal to Malbolge in it in preparation for his invasion. The PCs do this and get a real chance to spill some Baatezu blood (remember: this is a high-level adventure). The PCs are then shown the massive army Moloch has managed to raise (perhaps he bribed one of the Dark Eight?). Before Moloch's forces cross into Malbolge, however, he sends the PCs to deliver a letter to Glasya.

Part four: The PCs have some trouble getting the Glasya, but Moloch's letter finally gets them through. When Glasya reads the letter she is so enraged by the Moloch's implied threats and requests for allegience, that she takes the PCs prisoner. The next thing they know, the PCs are being released by Moloch's men and are told that the two are now allies in the battle against Baazebul and Mephistophiles. The PCs are then brought before Moloch and Glasya and sent on a mission to Stygia.

Part five: The PCs are sent by Moloch to seek the aid of Levistus in fighting them off. Moloch then gives them a powerful artifact given to him by the Yugoloths and tells them to use it to destroy the Baatezu garison outside of Tantlin should Levistus refuse. The PCs fail to convince Levistus or any of his followers and must infiltrate the Fort at Tantlin and set off the Yugoloth bomb. The Bomb kills thousands and is what will ultimately allow the Tanar'ri to break through the Layer's defences. The PCs return to Malbolge just in time to witness the Hag's attack. They then have to sneak past three armies to get back to Moloch and Glasya's camp.

Part six: Moloch is busy fighting on three fronts and doesn't have any more clever missions for the PCs, so he basically just sends them to die. On the way out of the camp, the PCs meet an old woman (actually Glasya in disguise) who claims to be an escaped prisoner and pleades for them to take her to Celestia. In exchange, she offers to break the Geases on them. The PCs will likely see through the ruse, but her offer to break their magical binds is a lot more appealing than certain death. So the escape Malbolge with her and travel to Mount Celestia where the PCs lead her to the same Celestials they talked with earlier. These Celestials naturally see through Glasya's disguise and pretend to hear her case before trapping her using the Hand of Fate. When word gets out, the Celestials bosses release the PCs from their enchantments, in a panic, send them to hide the Hand to Pandemonium.

Part seven: When the PCs get to Pandemonium, they are ambushed by the Yugoloth lord from earlier who has been magically tracking the Hand's movements. The Yugoloth then takes them captive while he travels to Malbolge, planning to present the Glasya and the PCs as gifts to whoever wins the Battle of Malbolge. When they get there, all are surprised to see that the Tanar'ri have broken through the defences in Stygia and are now fighting the Baatezu. The Yugoloth decides to leave again, but is delayed by a Tanar'ri ambush just long enough for the PCs to escape. As the PCs flee across Malbolge, the ground begins to shake and roars are heard from beneath the surface. They escape Malbolge just as the ground erupts.

Epilogue: Three weeks later, the PCs hear from a reliable chant broker that Nergal has already taken over Malbolge and the first one to pay his respects was a Yugoloth lord bearing many magic items, including a metal hand.

Sun, 2007-03-25 15:39

(Reply to #18) #20

Iavas

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Joined: 2006-07-12

Malbolge

I like it! A few things I would add or change for each part:

Prologue:
First, we need a reason for the PC's to be in Avernus. Unless they are either insane or Evil, they have few reasons to visist Hell. Money, of course, could be one incentive. Perhaps they are hired as a rescue mission for some rich clueless sod's addle-coved Paladin daughter (mirroring Glasya as Asmodeus' addle-coved devilish daughter that will need similar rescuing later), who decided to single-handedly destroy Satan (she was really clueless) by skipping the hole to Hell in a nearby cursed and deserted church (*cough*Diablo*cough*). It just so happened that she encountered Moloch's marshalling forces first, who thought she was just so preciously funny they decided to keep her alive for future amusement.

So, the PCs go down into the cursed church, kill a few left-over lemures and imps and pop into the middle of Moloch's Barbazu scouting party and their Cornugon superior. Instead of having some all-powerful Geas (neither I nor most PCs like that kind of deus-ex-machina plot-hook), the Paladin herself serves as ample incentive to do Moloch's bidding. Seeing no way to take on the entire army, the PCs give in and sign the contract. It's not their fault they didn't read the fine print about having to grant three wishes to the best of their abilities, right?

Part 1:
My first instinct is to have them go to the Tower Arcane in Chamada. That is the center of Blood War bargaining, after all. It can't be an exiled 'loth because then they wouldn't have access to Maeldur Et Kavurik. Wacky hijinks ensue in the PC's attempt to get to Chamada. By wacky, I mean painful and demeaning.

Part 2:
Hand of Fate sounds perfectly generic. Those tricky 'loths! I don't think that battle in this section should be with the Celestials. One thing to consider is why any celestials would accept a yugoloth made artifact. They probably wouldn't, even the extremists. Rather, I would scrap the celestial involvement all together. Instead, have them deliver the Yugoloth artifact to a Tanar'ri high-up that works for Graz'zt. A short trip to Azzagrat is all it takes.

Part 3:
The PCs unhappily discover the fine print and are forced to go do their second task, clearing out the fortress. This should be done in such a way that Moloch can later clear himself of any liability for the PC's actions. Considering it would be far easier for Moloch to gather money than troops, the majority of his army should be 'loths, with a few still faithful Baatezu in the lead. Everything else is pretty straight forward.

Part 4:
The PCs complete their final task in delivering the letter to Glasya. They could either go the direct route and deal with her army (making a deal to be let through, as they stand no chance in direct combat), or they could sneak around, encountering large numbers of Kalabons and other such unusual threats, before finally getting to Glasya to deliver the message. Note: I personally prefer to have Kalabons to be creatures under the Countess' direct control, although she might have them pretend to obey Glasya for a while. What are they, if they are not pieces of the Hag Countess? Well, this just occured to me - if Asmodeus was in on the the Countess' ruse, then perhaps this was a form of promotion to full Baatezu status. Thus, she shed her previous corporeal form (which Glasya thought was a form of death), producing the Kalabons as a byproduct. Whether she went along with Asmodeus' plan and became a unique Baatezu forever, or if she made previous arrangements with some aware Baatorians in her constant bid for Godhood is still unresolved.

Part 5:
Here, perhaps, Glasya could somehow enforce the PCs to attempt to gain Levistus' aid in return for their lives. The Yugoloths gave her the bomb as a gift upon her 'gaining control' of the layer. They know that she will use it, and they have been payed by a few high-up Tanar'ri for the information needed to get into Stygia.

What I'm trying to figure out is why the Tanar'ri would go to Malbolge after arriving in the comparatively safe Stygia. So far, I'm coming up blank. Once we figure that out, we can go to...

Part 6:
Glasya knows that the layer is lost to her. Her natural response would be to run to daddy, even if it means admitting defeat. For protection, she grabs Moloch's hostage for her own and forces the PCs to accompany her. Of course, she runs straight into the Tanar'ri horde emerging from the newly blasted hole between Stygia and Gehenna and into Malbolge (for the reason we will decide above). They also happen to be carrying the Hand of Fate, which they promptly use to capture Glasya. The PCs are free to go, along with the addle-coved paladin that got them into this mess in the first place, as soon as they fight their way to the nearest portal. The last thing they hear are the roars and quakes.

Part 7:
Considering the changes, I would really skip this part. You could have the Tanar'ri that captured Glasya be killed by a passing Baatezu army, and the PCs might have a reason to grab the Hand of Fate before leaving, thus concluding things as you have written. However, what happens if they do not?

Epilogue:
The addle-coved Paladin, given that she survives, is returned to her joyous father, who joyously embraces her and proceeds to tie her to the nearest pieces of unliftable furnitue. Planar-wise, however, there is a far more serious repercussion. One whole layer of Baator is changed drastically. Slopes littered with bones, many of which seem to be more of a natural phenomenon of the layer than any leftovers of the battle, conceal lake valleys of blood. Nergal gains control of the layer after he 'saves' Glasya from her horrendous fate. However, he is actually in the pocket of the Yugoloths that gave him Glasya back in the first place. How did they get the Hand of Fate back from the Tanar'ri? Well, they have their ways. The Hag Countess is missing in action, while Molochs skull is found floating in a lake of blood. Baalzebul's and Mephistopholes' forces are severely reduced, and it seems only Asmodeus has come out truly the victor (if you don't count the well-fed Baatorians). Still, there are rumors of the Countess showing up in the most unlikely of places, slowly making her way to the Ethereal.

Sun, 2007-03-25 18:42

(Reply to #19) #21

Duckluck

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Factor

Joined: 2006-10-10

Malbolge

Your version works pretty well, but I don't like how you handled a couple things. First, I think we have to leave the Celestials in. Why? Because it shows the Lower Planes don't exist in a vacuum. Even the most righteous of beings still watch the conflict below and take notes. Besides, the way I wrote it, the Loths crafted a very clever contingency by giving the Celestials the Hand of Fate (which they will accept because there is nothing inherently evil about it and they don't know it came from the Yugoloths). In your version though, it was just dumb luck that the invading Tanar'ri had the same artifact the PCs had given them.

That said, most of your changes were good.

Prologue: You were right, the Geas or whatever wasn't a Deus Ex Machina, but it was pretty close, and your version is unequivocably better. Oh, and I initially veiwed this as being sort of a higher level adventure (it would need to be with the amount of lower planar tromping they do), so they wouldn't be clueless, and they probably would be frying bigger fish than Lemures.

Part 1: What you said.

Part 2: This section is mostly foreshadowing so it should be brief, and you're right, they probably shouldn't be fighting Celestials. I say we have the Loths Planeshift the PCs there (or lead them to a really convenient portal) that way the PCs don't have to spend ages on meaningless traveling. Then they do a quick delivery run, lie about a few particulars, and split.

Part 3: Works for me.

Part 4: I thought about having the Hag Countess become a true Baatezu, but it seemed a bit too easy to me somehow. The rest is golden though.

Part 5: The Tanar'ri are going to Malbolge because it would be a huge victory to capture Asmodeus' daughter. Plus they're chaotic, if they see fighting, they don't need to have a terribly good reason to join in. Besides, just because the Tanar'ri have a clear path from the Styx to the Pit doesn't mean they have any of the rest of the layer. What they did was they punched their way through a temporary gap in the lines. All Levistus has to do is shift his forces and that gap will close again, but before it does, they are going to go down to Malbolge and kick some ass.

Part 6: Not only has Glasya been beaten, but she's also begining to realize that Asmodeus isn't going to help her. After all, he sold her out and has made no effort to help her. Besides, if she went back to him now, it would be in disgrace, and she wants revenge. Which is why I figure she goes to the Celestials. Alternatively, she could go to the Loths for help and get tricked by them into meeting with the Celestials.

Part 7: Nevermind what I said about going to Pademonium, the Celestials aren't going to trust the PCs that much. Instead the PCs return to Baator as part of the surgical strike by the Celestials to rescue prisoners from Malbolge (so the Celestials will entrust them with the Paladin). The Prisoners are freed, the Baatorians are pissed, and the PCs barely make it out alive.

Epilogue: The Celestials let the PCs take the Paladin home, the Hand of Fate disapears from under their noses (those crazy Loths and their clever schemes), and Nergal gets a fancy hand as a housewarming present.

Sun, 2007-03-25 19:46

(Reply to #20) #22

Iavas

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Malbolge

Okay. A couple more things to shoot back at you -

I agree that adding the celestials would keep the lower planes a part of the whole. However, in my version it was no accident that the invading Tanar'ri had the hand. Rather, the Yugoloths brokered a deal with Graz'zt, via the PCs, so that they would provide his army the Hand to capture Glasya and a way into Malbolge for mucho dinero. Then, of course, his army gets accidentally wiped out by a spec-op 'loth strike team on the way back home - no survivors.

However, if the celestials are to be responsible for the hand rather than being involved in some other fashion, then ...

Part 2: Should have at least one fight, albeit not with celestials. On the way to the celestials, many things can happen. It all depends on which portal you use. In order that the celestials truly do not know that the 'loths are behind the Hand, neither should the PCs. After all, some celestials can read minds. Perhaps, as the PCs are leaving the Tower Arcane, what appears to be an escaping aasimar (yugoloth in disguise) bequeaths them the Hand to get to the celestials before 'dying' from some horrible wound or disease (or lack of skin - oh wherever was he hiding that Hand).

Part 4: If the Countess becomes a true Baatezu in her attempt to become something else through a pact with the Baatorians, then it's not that simple anymore. I really don't like the idea of killing her off just yet.

Part 6: I like your second version - running to the 'loths for backup and getting denied in the most heinous of ways.

Epilogue: Does Nergal know what he has? If so, will he release her to gain favor with Asmodeus or try to keep her secret to use as a hostage if necessary?

EDIT: Extra thoughts on how the 'loths trick the celestials out of the Hand - the Hand has a Truename... Maeldur et Kavurik knows said Truename. Guess who owns Maeldur? If the hand is slightly sentient, then it can teleport right back into the 'loths hands when it senses that Glasya is captured.

Sun, 2007-03-25 20:49

(Reply to #21) #23

Duckluck

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Factor

Joined: 2006-10-10

Malbolge

'Iavas' wrote:

I'd say a good fight would be with a pack of Barghests guarding the portal to Celestia. As for the disguise part, the Yugoloths can give them each a Ring of Mind Shielding (a good way to give them the loot they deserve and also keep the evil characters from getting stopped on Celestia.

Quote:

Oh I agree, the Countess still has many years ahead of her, but preferably not as just another Baatezu.

Quote:

Part 6: I like your second version - running to the 'loths for backup and getting denied in the most heinous of ways.

What they're doing is getting the Celestials to do their work for them and then stealing the rewards.The best part is it's totally something the 'Loths would do.

Quote:

Epilogue: Does Nergal know what he has? If so, will he release her to gain favor with Asmodeus or try to keep her secret to use as a hostage if necessary?

This is one I was going to leave open. The fact that he doesn't release her immediately probably indicates that he either doesn't know she's in there, doesn't know how to release her, or, most likely, is waiting for the right time.

Quote:

Truenaming could work. I think the important part is they've been planning to retrieve the Hand all along, and have the tools to do it.

Sun, 2007-03-25 21:03

(Reply to #22) #24

Iavas

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Malbolge

Before I call it a night, let me just say two things:

1) The reason I had the disguised Yugoloth is not only because the Celestials would otherwise see through the plot, but also because the PCs would unlikely want to dupe the Good guys unless they are are Evil themselves.

2) What exactly do you think of my idea of the Countess dealing with the Baatorians, with whatever result?

Sun, 2007-03-25 23:01

(Reply to #23) #25

Duckluck

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Factor

Joined: 2006-10-10

Malbolge

'Iavas' wrote:

Before I call it a night, let me just say two things:

2) What exactly do you think of my idea of the Countess dealing with the Baatorians, with whatever result?

1) I know they wouldn't want to, but it's not like they have much of a choice. The disguise idea might be better, but the tricky part is getting it to keep its sense of urgency. If you just give them the hand and tell them to diliver it to the Celestials, they might decide to wait until after they finish their business in Hell before even starting. If you can find a way to keep the players in the dark without sacrificing the sense of urgency, your idea will be perfect. Until then, mine at least means they'll do it (however reluctantly).

2) I think that if anyone is making a bargain with the Baatorians, it's the Countess. In fact, she's probably been in communication with them from the begining. That said, I'd like to keep the true dark of her activities a secret as long as she's presumed to have died with Moloch. That way it will be all the more surprising next time she pops up.

Mon, 2007-03-26 05:57

(Reply to #24) #26

Iavas

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Joined: 2006-07-12

Malbolge

1) Granted. Didn't consider them just holding on to it until the end. EDIT: Self destructing timed message, perhaps?

2) Yup. I was just thinking general background, not part of the adventure. The PCs shall never know. Mwaha... mwahahaha!

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